"Once A Hero" - Envision / 235 Studios [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Beat Takeshi

06-05-2006, 10:37 PM

The opening scene the rain was too loud drowning (heh) out the voice. Theres a part on the couch where he says what happened.....but the music gets too loud there. The part where he is in the doorway is reverbing and isnt matching the quiet close scenes. I know hes supposed to be further away but it seems to not fit. Her killing monolog is seeming not to fit, the same thing though, its in an open area and its probably supposed to sound like that but since the other stuff was so clear it seems like a mistake.

Its hard to say what exactly was missing but i think it was that the was no climax yet but it was right at the moment when it was supposed to happen. If the part where she killed him was the climax I guess it seemed so... not so climatic but then she closes the gates on the girl so you feel like oh, ok this is where she does some serious a$$ kicking but then it ends.

Watching it again and it still looks shhhweeeet, the adapter makes a world of difference in the feel. Again, you guys did a great job on this.

235 Studios

06-05-2006, 11:00 PM

Cinematography: Best thing about this film, very well lit and good usage of the Letus adapter.

Thanks for the kind words.

Edgen

06-06-2006, 12:03 AM

*edit..* Norm and Ryan. :)

hey hey Norm! Yee haw! congrats on finishing! :)

and... my thoughts:
Wow. starts with a bang. no frakin' around here.
I can't hear her at all because of the rain. had to rewind a few times to understand. but, that's actually fine, because its all part of the confusion.
Score is beautiful at the couch scene.. but.. can't hear a word. :)
Green EYES! wew hew! that makes 4 films so far. (mine included.. :) )
The rock song? Ok. Sorry. but, that just not need to be there. It felt like the 'credits' were about to roll.
I'm confused on why the man dude died. He turned green and keeled over. then the rock song and then. Wowa. I'm lost.
The end definitely seemed rushed as though the cockroach had no where to run. boom. boom. boom. done. credits. dang.

Norm.. I think i've gota watch this one again.

The composer Brian Moody did a fantastic job. I'm looking forward to downloading the .mp3.

cheers and congrats on finishing and entering the contest :)
and.. of course looking forward to seeing the final longer version as well.
/j

fixitinpost

06-06-2006, 02:03 AM

Beautiful looking film. The Letus really produces some amazing results with a good DP. I really dug the look.

The story confused me a bit, but that should be cleared up with the longer version, which I can't wait to see.

One suggestion that I would make would be to cut perspective on the rain sounds at the beginning.

How on earth did you get the rights to a Skillet song? Congrats to whoever pulled that off!

I see a definite improvement over your Sci-fest entry. Can't wait fo the full version!

Norm Sanders

06-06-2006, 02:07 AM

Thanks Justin. Ryan just e-mailed me wondering if we should have just cut a trailer instead to the full cut vs. trying to CRAM a story into the 6 minutes. Eh, live & learn.

I also agree the rock song just comes IN & OUT. In hindsight I should have just had Brian Moody create a special cue for this short version there, but he did the best he could to simply take the existing music for the 23 minute cut & chop/blend it down for this version.

I've never really noticed the issues everyone's talking about with the audio, so I wonder if it's just in this compressed version. Otherwise, I'll have to remix the living room scene, and possibly ADR the entire entry way scene, which is right now all actual set/production sound with the rain we had coming in from the towers.

If I can get a pro on board for the FX on the extended cut, it'll make a LOT more sense when Meltdown/David dies, not to mention the extended cut has all the stuff that's cut out from the time he says "I can't be saved" to when he walks up towards her ... there's confrontation, further dialogue exchange, etc.

Norm Sanders

06-06-2006, 02:10 AM

How on earth did you get the rights to a Skillet song? Congrats to whoever pulled that off!

Rights? We're supposed to get rights for that music?

Just kidding! I was able to track down their label, Ardent Records (division of Sony), and got the standard rate of just a hair over $0.09 per DVD ... so we've got unlimited festivals, two online venues (iFilm and Atom Films), and up to 500 DVD's under the current license.

In the perfect world, we'll be getting the final DVD out to the Skillet band, and if they dug it with their song in there maybe there could be some cross promotion, though again that's in the perfect world.

235 Studios

06-06-2006, 07:59 AM

Beautiful looking film. The Letus really produces some amazing results with a good DP. I really dug the look.

Thank you.

How on earth did you get the rights to a Skillet song? Congrats to whoever pulled that off!

Yeah, Norm did a great job getting ahold of those rights- it was fun to see things like that come together.

Beat Takeshi

06-06-2006, 08:03 AM

Yes, kudos to the cinematographer. The images were beautiful and consistant the whole movie.

oneinfiniteloop

06-06-2006, 08:20 AM

Having seen the longer cut, you guys are in for a treat...the opening alley sequence is definately amazing!

Norm Sanders

06-06-2006, 08:53 AM

Thanks Andrew!

soffcore

06-06-2006, 11:00 AM

Good work guys. I know how hard it is to take a longer piece and cut it down by 2/3. Curugon and I couldn't do it for our film, so we didn't enter.

I felt like the mood was great, the plot a bit rushed and the acting only OK. The girl's cockroach monologue was well-written, but not well acted. It reminded me of Kill Bill 2. Loved the bank set. Overall some really nice production value and I look forward to seeing the full film.

Larry R

06-06-2006, 05:01 PM

Note: I have not read most of the responses yet, until I had a chance to write mine...didn't want to be unfairly influenced

I enjoyed this film and it is clear in watching each film you have entered that you are learning and growing as a filmmaker. This is hands down your best entry yet.

The locations were fantastic and I loved the dark, mysterious feel you gave to all the scenes. My biggest complaint with this piece, and it isn't a show stopper, is that I know there is more to the story and I'd like to see it...I'm not 100% sure the full story comes through in this cut, in particular who is the woman that is all over the guy after the heroine finds stinger in the coat pocket? And why does he say he can't be saved, turn green and then he's on the ground? I know there is more that I'm just not seeing, but I am left, in this cut wondering about those things. But again, they don't take away from enjoying this project.

Knowing how short the time was for getting special effects in I am very impressed...I spent several days just trying to fix my unlocked camera plates so I could make a guy disappear and trying to mask out extras who wandered into frame to "watch the action". I'm sure they'll just get better as you have more time to fine tune them.

Everything was well framed and the dark coloring of the piece was fantastic. I love the image you get with that letus adapter...gotta get me one o' them. :)

I had trouble hearing what was said in a couple places. In particular, the rain makes it hard to hear what is being said in the opening until she says something about "...lost my powers.". The audio in the opening living room scene has a slight "ring" to it, but that may just be compression.

I like the lighting...it has a noir feel to it, even though it is in color and is not a 1930s gangster flick. But the deep shadows and overall dark tone made me think noir.

The score is fantastic...the composer did an excellent job of expressing the story without drawing so much attention to itself that you were pulled out of the film.

The actors did an excellent job. However, there were two parts I wasn't real keen on. First, when the guy yells "NOOOO" after the heroine died...it felt very over the top to me. The other was the cockroach stuff. The lines were fine, but her delivery felt strange. It was almost like she was trying to "sound" tough and it just sounded forced.

Overall an outstanding job and I'm glad you submitted it. I'm really looking forward to the extended version as I'm sure there is a lot of great story in there to match the great technical aspects!!

Thanks for sharing this film, I really enjoyed it!!

Larry

Norm Sanders

06-07-2006, 03:37 AM

Larry, thanks a ton for the VERY detailed feedback. Very much appreciated.

As a side note, I've updated the first page with a small poster to get into the promotion swing of things! :thumbsup:

Edgen

06-07-2006, 03:57 AM

OOoh ya!! I dig the new poster. Very very slick indeed! It sets the mood of the film right off the bat.

/j

Jason

06-07-2006, 11:13 AM

The lighting was great.
The sound was awful.

The scenes in the apartment had a great look to them--you established a particular mood (again, props for the lighting choices)--but the "superhero" scenes came off really cheesey and stiff.

Also: what the hell is going on??

I see that there is supposed to be a longer version. Hopefully, that one works.
In terms of story-telling, this film needs help.

Norm Sanders

06-07-2006, 12:12 PM

Awesomeness! I love how Jason just joined yesterday in time for comments. :thumbsup: Either an existing member that's afraid to give critical comments under their real name, or was just invited to the forum by one of the entrees.

So Jason ... when you blast a particular area (i.e. sound, cheesy & stiff, etc.), would you mind elaborating on particular sections, or things you think could have been done to improve them?

That said, glad you liked the lighting. When our lead actress (Rachelle Morrison) submitted her headshot, I was intrigued by her look but immediately also wanted to know who the photographer was. Called him up & asked if he'd be interested in being our gaffer. He did a great job.

Yes, the longer version works. We started making the film because of this festival, but let it become bigger (and wanted it to as well) than the 6 minutes ... MUCH bigger. Perhaps it was a mistake to enter this into the festival, as it was a huge challenge to try & make sense out of it within 6 minutes, but I'm still glad we did as the reviews are still fairing decently, and I'm picking up some things to adjust (i.e. sound) in the final mix of the full cut.

Thanks again, but if you could be so kind (Jason) as to go into a little further detail on the negatives, it's a lot more help to the community.

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 12:16 PM

but if you could be so kind (Jason) as to go into a little further detail on the negatives, it's a lot more help to the community.

I agree... specifically on this film and on Jack's Bone Hand film...

Jason

06-07-2006, 12:28 PM

Calm down.
The dialogue comes out too muffled. There are times when the score overpowers it and there are times when it's just too low.
I'd suggest playing with the levels--in a movie that's as particularly hard to follow as this one, being unable to make out the dialogue is a killer.

Beat Takeshi

06-07-2006, 12:30 PM

Hey that new poster rocks.

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 12:48 PM

Hey that new poster rocks.

I hope that was sarcastic.... :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

DarrenRyan

06-07-2006, 12:55 PM

Very high command of camera and lighting skills. Great shots truly.

I didn't see Jason's comments as "Blasting" just honest. This forum could use a little more of it.

Larry R

06-07-2006, 12:59 PM

I don't think anyone here has a problem with honesty, we are just looking for more than, "The sound was awful."

If the sound is awful, then please say so...but also say why you think that. Was it poorly mixed? Did it sound good but you couldn't understand the words? Etc, Etc

WilderWorks

06-07-2006, 01:02 PM

We shouldn't be deleting, ignoring, or discouraging posts because they disagree with the predominate wisdom and have a little fire. It's very frustrating to see a truly different voice silenced because it's not playing nice, because it's being a little rude. Sometimes you have to cut through the crap to get to the point. You can't always tip-toe when you're talking about something you're passionate about. And I don't think you should need to. Let's have it out! Let's fight for our films.

But that's just my humble opinion. :)

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 01:12 PM

but the "superhero" scenes came off really cheesey and stiff.

In terms of story-telling, this film needs help.

These two comments alone are not necessary... first off... if the superhero scenes come off cheesy and stiff... why? the performances? the way they were filmed or edited? the music? Don't just make general negative comments without saying why you felt something.

Secondly... the "this film needs help" line was totally unecessary... I've found that sometimes when you got nothing constructive to say, don't say anything at all... that last comment is NOT constructive.

WilderWorks

06-07-2006, 01:22 PM

I agree that this example wasn't particularly helpful. But I'm glad it's still here for us to discuss. Maybe someone else will come along and explain why they weren't stiff, or support it by saying they were. At least the idea is out there. Again, that's me. In fact, when I finally stop doing this on my employer's time, and watch this movie, I'll be looking for those very points.

PK Gillock

06-07-2006, 01:58 PM

Ok, I'm going to get flamed for this, but I got .02 cents so I'm going to spend it. :)

I wanted to like this one, I really tried, but it just felt like a lot of fluff and, I'm sorry, but I actually got bored watching it. This one had a lot of "look how pretty everything looks" that some of the other flicks suffered from as well. I sometimes look at FX or visuals as, kind of like, a magician that gets you to look at his pretty assistant as he's hiding something up his sleeve. And, for me, this film was hiding a bad script up its sleeve. Which is what surprised me the most because this was from the Script Wrangler. Granted you were missing the other scenes, but for me there wasn't anything (in this 6 minutes) for me to grasp onto so I could actually care about these characters. It felt like I was watching 5 minutes of a soap opera, with a short fight sequence at the end. The acting was nice and the film looked really good. VERY good. Which made me expect it to sound good as well. But it didn't sound good. Others already mentioned the problem with the sound so I won't go into it.

Again, I really tried (twice) to like this film, but it was just too much eye candy and not enough substance or originality. Don't mean to be so harsh, but you're a pro and can handle it. It's not like I'm shooting down some first-timers dream of being a filmmaker. You'll have a successful career despite my one opinion on this one (part) of a film. I'm sure of it. :)

Good luck with completing the film.

Norm Sanders

06-07-2006, 02:00 PM

No, no, no, it's all good, trust me. Rip me a new one on this, and it won't hurt my feelings the least.

I just ask for no GENERAL comments, give me details. This even pertains to the positives, but obviously even more so to the negatives. If you LOVE the acting, or lighting, or camera work, it'd be great to hear what your favorite moments were ... because not only do we want to learn from what DIDN'T work so we can fix it, we want to know what DID work (specifically), so we can build from it as well.

Make sense?

So Jason, I'm calm as a cucumber, and thanks for the extra added feedback. I've recently noticed the mp4 is more muffled sounding than the high data rate AVI file, so that could be some of it ... but otherwise I need to ensure I've got a good set of studio quality speakers for the final mix of the full version, so I do value this feedback greatly.

To recap: I love the feedback, both the good & the bad ... but generalities aren't of much use to anyone.

EDIT: PK's post landed before I finished this ... so thanks PK for the feedback. I'm going to PM you access to the full script to see if you think it's any better, out of curiousity.

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 02:00 PM

I quite agree PK... but IMO the short 6 min. version doesn't do the script justice... its a good script, with good characters, but this is just to chopped down to show off the development.

David Jimerson

06-07-2006, 03:51 PM

Guys, I thought it looked great, and the editing was excellent.

But I think there should be criminal penalties for anyone screaming "NOOOOOOO!!!!" in any movie . . .

Norm Sanders

06-07-2006, 04:11 PM

Thanks David! LOL! The interesting thing was that there was never anything planned for the character to say or do anything there, but I wanted to possibly hear something in, so I asked him to give a loud wail ... the first attempt was not what I was looking for, to say the least (kind of a high pitched nut-crack effect) ...

So then he chose the "NOooooo", which worked better at least. So you think cut the sound altogether?, or just ADR some random wail in? You're not the first to think the "NO" was cliche or over the top.

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 04:19 PM

I'd say silent would work beautifully....

Larry R

06-07-2006, 04:19 PM

I was one who commented on it being "over-the-top", but I think you should leave it. I think the problem I have with it, is not the yell itself, but the look on his face when he yells. It fits, just seems like he was trying to hard.... not a show stopper in my book.

In reference to PK's comments, and others, about the story...I read the full script and I have to say it is a well developed story. The pieces that feel "missing" in this cut are well fleshed out and it is an outstanding story.

That being said, I went back and watched the short version of the flim again and I think the main reason why it may seem unclear is the problems previously discussed with the audio. The story comes through fine if you listen to what they are saying.

Honestly, give it another watch, but give the extra half-effort required to understand what is being said and you may be surprised to find a great film on your hands.

Just my $0.01 9/10

fixitinpost

06-07-2006, 04:27 PM

I'll agree with David on the "Nooooo!" A random wail would, I think work better. Every time I hear anyone yell "NO" I instantly think of Episode III, which is unfortunate. I also noticed that at least in the mp4, the "no" was insanely loud. I realize that he was screaming it, but mixing it down just a bit might take away from the cliche a little bit. It was just so present and over the top that it really took me out of the story.

Larry R

06-07-2006, 04:30 PM

Hey, good point fixitinpost....I think it was the extreme presence of his voice that made it "over the top".

So, to recap....turn up all the dialog in the film, EXCEPT the "NOOOOO"...turn it down a couple notches :)

235 Studios

06-07-2006, 07:53 PM

Very high command of camera and lighting skills. Great shots truly.

Thanks, much appreciated. It was fun working with Tung, our gaffer- he did a great job at lighting- made my job as DP that much easier. I really appreciated his ability to bring my desires to reality.

I didn't see Jason's comments as "Blasting" just honest. This forum could use a little more of it.

I agree- but more content is always more helpful- just saying ti was bad does not give one much to go on- the more specific the input, the better one can know how to improve.

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 07:58 PM

Anyway... liked the film fellas... I really want to see the full cut... put me on the pre-order list for the DVD!

235 Studios

06-07-2006, 08:06 PM

Ok, I'm going to get flamed for this, but I got .02 cents so I'm going to spend it. :)

Why you good for nothing, two-bit, wanna-be .....

JUST KIDDING!!!!

Thanks for your input PK- I always appreciate what you have to say- good or bad. Thanks for chiming in.

And, for me, this film was hiding a bad script up its sleeve. Which is what surprised me the most because this was from the Script Wrangler.

Some might dissagree, but I can say with assurance, that the script is not weak- at least not the full version. Originally I was going to sit this one out, but after reading the first draft of the script, I got interested and decided to jump on board. What I think makes it suffer so much, is that it is trying to accomplish to much in a short period- I think we were to ambitious to try and fit 23 min into 6 min and have it still be as good, and coherent....

Hind sight is 20/20. I think we would have had a stronger piece if we had cut a trailer instead of a 6 min cut.

The acting was nice and the film looked really good. VERY good.

Thanks.

Don't mean to be so harsh, but you're a pro and can handle it. It's not like I'm shooting down some first-timers dream of being a filmmaker. You'll have a successful career despite my one opinion on this one (part) of a film. I'm sure of it. :)

I don't think that you were harsh at all- thanks for your input and feed back. I appreciate the detail that you gave in your response. We can't get better if all we do is just blow smoke up each others ass. Constructive criticism is great, and needed.

235 Studios

06-07-2006, 08:07 PM

Guys, I thought it looked great, and the editing was excellent.

Thanks.

But I think there should be criminal penalties for anyone screaming "NOOOOOOO!!!!" in any movie . . .

What kind of penalties??? :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 08:08 PM

I think we were to ambitious to try and fit 23 min into 6 min and have it still be as good, and coherent....

Hind sight is 20/20. I think we would have had a stronger piece if we had cut a trailer instead of a 6 min cut.

I totally feel ya dude... same thing happened with my sci-fest film... tried fitting about 13 minutes into 6... lost lots of character developement and pacing was too fast in spots... I totally can.... sympathize.

235 Studios

06-07-2006, 08:11 PM

Anyway... liked the film fellas... I really want to see the full cut... put me on the pre-order list for the DVD!

No prob- we'll put you down. We're working on a bunch of extras, and BTS stuff to fill out the DVD, and I believe that Norm may even share a secret receipe ......

Brandon Rice

06-07-2006, 08:15 PM

Nice! I want Norm's recipe for RIBS! I hear they're famous!

Larry R

06-07-2006, 08:40 PM

Forget the recipe, I think for each person that orders he should bring the cooked ribs personally to their house. :grin:

MiataFilmSomething

06-07-2006, 09:56 PM

Saw this one twice.

Pros - Awesome camera work. Great quality of images and proximity usage. The acting was superb, great characters.

Cons - The audio. Maybe I have an older speaker system or something, but I could barley hear the voices over the music. It made me lose interest and focus. The 8 second alternative song that played when the dude died, it was like we flahsed to Dawson's Creek for a short time, then came back to reality. It felt like being on a website where you can preview a short sample of a song.

Overall - Strong performances and awesome camera work make this very worth watching.

Norm Sanders

06-07-2006, 10:01 PM

Recipe ala Robert Rodriguez style, yes, travel & catering, no. :)

It'll be under Special Features with the title "How To Bulk Up Your Super Hero" (aka Norm's Famous Ribs).

Sent PK access to the full script, so we'll see if I can get redeemed back as the "Script Wrangler" ... which, BTW, Jarred chose that himself ... and caught me off guard. But I do think I've got a good eye for writing, and Jeffrey Hawley's an excellent writer.

All that said, I've gone through & listened/watched the mp4 file ... the compression really messed with the music balance, as it's SO much more out of whack than the AVI file. Even so it's still too hot in the project itself, so I'll be cutting the music back further to really make the dialogue stand out.

Again, appreciate all the comments & feedback. Keep 'em coming, thanks.

235 Studios

06-07-2006, 10:35 PM

Forget the recipe, I think for each person that orders he should bring the cooked ribs personally to their house. :grin:

Now that would be a unique special feature! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Brandon Rice

06-08-2006, 12:23 AM

It'll be under Special Features with the title "How To Bulk Up Your Super Hero" (aka Norm's Famous Ribs).

Or.... "How to bulk up Brandon" :):Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

jpbankesmercer

06-08-2006, 06:35 AM

Man! This can be a harsh realm we post in. :costumed-smiley-047 :kali:

First Kudos to Envison/ Norm for pulling off a truly amazing looking spectacle. Reminded me slightly of Spiderman (Shot choice, lighting). I think you nailed the look. The Actors had the look too.

Top marks for doing something so ambitious and unfortunately thats where you took your eye off the ball.

Before you protest. I don't need to see more of a script, come off it Envison. When your trying to make it (and you will) we all know how tough it is. How many times do you think, right this is the project thats going to do it for me only to realize you've made another three since then?

Its a long...long...long...long...long road. I never imagined how hard it would be to make it. We will be doing it for the rest of our lives. I've sweated my balls off pulling projects together and not getting the reactions I've intended.

But I'm learning and will continue to improve.

Amongst these ramblings it boils back down to the story. If you cant understand/ follow it with the sound off. It doesn't work. Simple as.

Your story had the right feel it just came across too complex. I didn't connect with the characters. It felt a little staged. It wasn't character driven. Its hard to write in that genre. Your inciting incident should have come in right away. You've got massive potential. IMOP you got bogged down giving us that look we were all anticipating (you delivered yet again) Everything in your house is right to make a fantastic movie. Nobody touches your visuals at the moment. Story...? If you get back to basics now you'll be unstoppable.

It's good to be humble about our work. If we we're all great now, there would be no surprises left.

I hope you take my comments as a fellow traveler on this inhospitable journey.
J.P.
+ Kudos to P.K. Your the main monk.:love4:

235 Studios

06-08-2006, 07:35 AM

First Kudos to Envison for pulling of a truly amazing looking spectacle. Reminded me slightly of Spiderman (Shot choice, lighting). I think you nailed the look. The Actors had the look too ... Nobody touches your visuals at the moment.

I'm glad that you liked the look /actors / lighting / cinematography. Thanks for the complement. Norm and I talked a lot about the feel and the look we wanted for this film, and it appeasrs that we were able to pull at least that much off.

Amongst these ramblings it boils back down to the story. If you cant understand/ follow it with the sound off. It doesn't work. ... I didn't connect with the characters. It felt a little staged. It wasn't character driven ... Story...? If you get back to basics now you'll be unstoppable.

Good point- it should still make sense with the sound off. And right now the short version is a little hard to follow. I know that the full version does not suffer from this, as it makes a lot more sense, and is much more character driven- but as this contest is centered around the 6 min. version, that is neither here nor there.

While it is fun to receive complements about our work, I know both Norm and I have been using these contests as a learning / training ground for our story telling skills. (Don't get me wrong- we want to win, after all it is a competition- and whats the point if not to win :) ). This short is heads and tails above our last short, and I know the next one will be that much better. Learn form our mistakes and move on- Thanks for your input.

I can honestly say that I'm excited to see how the extended cut does in other festivals- I think it has potential to get some additional recognition ...

Matthew B. Moore

06-08-2006, 09:42 AM

Ummmm. I was REALLY lost. The thread helped, but as a single work, the 6min version is all over the place and is really hard to follow. The music score was way too loud. I couldn't follow the conversation.

It looked pretty.

One funny note: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

spidey

06-08-2006, 09:43 AM

here goes:

under lit with a greyness to it.
OST was over board to where you couldnt hear whats going on.
Noooooo! classic.
I didnt understand whats going on about roaches and stuff I think mostly because of the soundtrack over the voices.
graphics eh.

Norm Sanders

06-08-2006, 09:44 AM

JP, thanks for the comments, seriously appreciate them!

Before you protest. I don't need to see more of a script, come off it Envison.

I don't think I've ever been protesting, or at least haven't wanted it to seem like that ... I only offered the full script to PK because he was referencing it as a bad script/writing. In that case, I think it's the editing and or sound issues that make it seem like a bad script because so much of the story is missing and or can't be heard.

So I will defend the script, while I may not defend this short version as much.

Amongst these ramblings it boils back down to the story. If you cant understand/ follow it with the sound off. It doesn't work. Simple as.

I somewhat agree with you, but I'm trying to think of any movied I've seen, if I had watched it for the first time with ZERO sound, if I'd truly understand what's going on. Though we should SEE more than we HEAR, there are times that it's CRITICAL to hear certain things ... so I can't agree 100% with that statement.

jpbankesmercer

06-08-2006, 10:37 AM

Envison, I love what your doing your hard hitting the industry using any tactics you can, your great at getting things done.

Watch Cache 2 without sound on, its true honestly. We tell stories with pictures, words should come second. Great Actors can say so much without saying anything...Character driven....The scripts not bad...just too loose for 6mins and after all that was what this competition was about....working within those constraints....its hard to tell a good story quickly but it has been done again and again...I felt that your story lost me a little. I liked the Actors and I'm sure they will develop fanstastically.

With Ryan contributing his amazing visuals you make a great team and your work in most areas is solid. I marvel at what it must have taken to get it off the ground. A1

Personally I'm underdevelopment with an exec-producer/ scriptwriter...back to the board let me tell you! It's frightening and still might not lead to anything. But I do appreciate a well told story. Beginning, middle and end in any order you like.

I want to effect people with my work, I've not shot anything for three months going back and learning the art of telling stories again. I know how much time it takes to put anything together that good. I want it to be GREAT! As I'm sure you do...just extending my hand across the either to someone else who is trying their best...
Good work.
J.P.

Norm Sanders

06-08-2006, 11:25 AM

JP, again thanks for all the feedback. I DO need to still watch Cache 2, and a few others still. I'll try to do that tonight & get the feedback to you ... looking forward to seeing it, first without the sound, of course. :)

Spidey, you're the first to say it was underlit, but if it was it would be from the adapter & the glass in front of it. That thing lost SO much light, so with the normal DVX the shots were extremely overlit, sometimes to the point of being blown out. Throw the Letus Flip on there and some various lenses and it's perfect, if not possibly even needing more light once in a while.

The greyness you're referring to is from me pulling back the color a good 25% or more, as I've not figured what CC I want to go with yet for an overall look ... so desaturation for the majority of it, and flash backs with the bolder colors is where this one went for the DVX cut.

What's OST?

MiataFilmSomething

06-08-2006, 11:26 AM

I know a few comments have been made on the "NOOOOOOOO!" yelling, but hey, I still think it was better than the one from Darth Vader in Episode III

spidey

06-08-2006, 12:03 PM

Original SoundTrack.

spidey

06-08-2006, 12:04 PM

keep working on it bro it has potential.

jpbankesmercer

06-08-2006, 01:11 PM

Envision, thanx for taking my thoughts on-board so graciously. 2 Last points.

1 That lead Actor has lots of potential. KEEP HOLD OF HIM.

2 If Ryan doesn't post exactly how this was shot, I shall lead the revolt myself.

J.P.

Norm Sanders

06-08-2006, 02:11 PM

Thanks for the OST explaination, Spidey! :)

J.P, glad you liked the lead ... it was a long search to find the right guy. Thought we had one until we cast the female for Widow, and then the guy ended up being too short in comparison, so the search continued. The lead guy's name is also Ryan, and I can't believe how photogenic he is ... makes me sick!

Since Ryan's off line for a bit, I'll try to fill in ... he can correct me on anything or add where I missed something:

HOW THIS WAS SHOT

EQUIPMENT

2 Panasonic DVX100a's
2 Letus35 Flip Enhanced
The most common lenses used were a Vivitar 28mm 2.0 (wide angle - Nikon AI mount), and a Canon 50mm 1.4 FD mount.
For the CU shots we used a Canon 135mm 2.5 FD mount ... it was an older lens, but we liked the look (loaned to us by Knight Camera shop in Vancouver, WA in exchange for copy/credit).
Glidecam V8 (steadicam-like system) for B-camera work (supplied by Lyon Films out of Salem, OR)
Neil Rowe's 24 wheel dolly w/T push/pull bar (supplied by Lyon Films out of Salem, OR) for A-Camera
Cobra Crane I (supplied by 235 Studios - Ryan) for A-Camera)
A warning for anyone considering this crane: DO NOT USE IT if you're planning on using it with any additional weight beyond the DVX and maybe a matt box ... it just had way to difficult a time handling the weight of the camera, adapter, rails, lens, etc. and as a result were constantly battling shaky camera movements and/or having the picture lien to one direction as the crane was reefing on the tripod head.Lighting

Main lights were a kit from Amvona.com - a three 1K light kit complete with TALL stands, soft boxes, diffuser screens, grids, etc. Oh, and extra bulbs which we needed since we blew out two of them during production (exploded from the rain!)
Additional lighting were a couple of more professional lights that Ryan had, I think up to 600W (but sure packed a punch when needed - specifically we hung one directly over Sparrow for the end scene in the chair, and it did a better job than the 1K light I had)
Oh, and of course the standard Home Depot work lamps, adjustable from 250W to 500W, and were nearly indestructable (DRENCHED them in the rain with no problems).
Our primary lighting expert was Tung Bui, with Tung n' Groove Studios. I found him when Rachelle Morrison had contacted me via the Craig's List advertisement.VERY glad I came across both of them, and look forward to working with them again in the future. For most of the talent in this film, BTW, this was their first film ever (Sparrow, Meltdown/David, and a whole cast of other people you won't see until the full cut).

CAMERA SETTINGS

We maxed out the DVX's. Cranked the details settings, core detail, etc. all the way up to 7 to compensate for the softness the 35 adapter would add. We also went with THIN detail setting, NORMAL matrix, and Cine-like gamma. Skin detail was turned off, as that's to further soften an image to help with wrinkles, etc.
Shutter speed was at default 48 for all the shots everyone has seen in the short, with the exception of when she hits the plaque. During the full cut of that, as well as the opening alley scene in the full version of the short, we used a LOT of 120 & 250 shutter speeds, which even though it REALLY dropped down the light (so we had to bring the lamps in even closer & hotter), it made for some great effects & added the extra edge we wanted.
I believe we had the Master Pedestal turned down to -5, but that's about it. We didn't want to lose TOO much detail in the shadows, or felt it would be even that much more difficult for our VFX folks in post.
Color settings were set to default.Hope that helps?

For the rain, if that's in question, we had Jerry Buxbaum on set 3 out of 4 of our days with all of his rain tower gear. Twice we were able to hook up to a near by fire hydrant & just DRENCH the area with the rain towers. Jerry's got enough gear that he can soak an entire city block, and thankfully he was available for us in between jobs.

235 Studios

06-08-2006, 02:55 PM

If Ryan doesn't post exactly how this was shot, I shall lead the revolt myself.

Revolt away brother!

Just kidding- Thanks Norm for posting that- I have been crazy busy with other projects, bearly have time to post ...

235 Studios

06-08-2006, 02:58 PM

Since Ryan's off line for a bit, I'll try to fill in ... he can correct me on anything or add where I missed something:

That is a good summary of things. I can post the exact cam settings later tonight- if people are interested.- I've got to run to a meeting.

Until then.

arielman

06-08-2006, 03:03 PM

Hi Norm ...geez you always do good work!!!!!

Can't wait to see the 23 minute version ..I did have a little trouble understanding the ending . I watched this again back at my place on a good LCD monitor and a set of headphones ..I picked up on who Simone (spelling ) was and all was clear . I think the music in some spots over powered the conversation . Maybe this is just me ..

Another Great film Norm !!
Ian

Norm Sanders

06-08-2006, 03:10 PM

Thanks Ian! Nope, it's not just you my friend. Everyone's been having issues with the audio, and I can't blame them. Once I listened to this mp4, I can clearly hear what everyone's talking about.

conrad_johnson

06-08-2006, 08:47 PM

Hi - nice job.

What I liked -
Your cinematography was great. Good depth, lighting, composition, etc.

Not so much -
Sound was tough to hear, as you know. And thus, story was harder to follow, even upon subsequent viewings.
Sound aside, I think the story was somewhat incoherent and messy. As I glance through your thread I'm seeing a lot of talk of a 23 minute version, and I think you mentioned that maybe you should have made a trailer rather than trying to cut a coherent story in 6 min.
My inclination is that this fest is about creating a story in 6 min, not creating a portion of a larger idea in 6 min (or a trailer for a longer flick). Just my opinion. So the more or less incoherent story didn't do it for me. Sorry!

To end on a more positive note - again, cinematography was great :).

Norm Sanders

06-08-2006, 10:44 PM

Thanks Conrad. You're absolutely right about the intentions of the festival. And it's what we originally set out to do. Then it just kind of grew, and we absolutely allowed it to, because as film makers we want to grow with each experience & eventually move on to be able to handle a full feature length film. So while I love these festivals (my 3rd DVXuser fest), I don't want to limit myself (nor does Ryan) to only 5 & 6 minute films, as that won't prepare you to handle a MUCH larger project.

So I had HOPED that I could still cut a solid 6 minute cut out of the full short, that would still work well enough for the DVXuser fest, but allow us to have a more tangible, robust & elaborate film to take to other festivals afterwards.

And while a trailer might have had a little more "WOW" factor to it, it wouldn't have gotten us the feedback I'm appreciating about the sound (some of which is exagerated in the compression, unfortunately), etc.

So no need to apologize for the negative feedback. We're all grown ups, and that's the stuff we need to learn from, right? :)

Edgen

06-08-2006, 10:51 PM

So no need to apologize for the negative feedback. We're all grown ups, and that's the stuff we need to learn from, right? :)

I Absolutely agree. If we can't learn to tell people our opinions, how are we expected to grow? And... ultimately get better? I think this fest is a great exercise and execution and will hopefully propell most of these guys as the next generation of filmmakers.

/j

235 Studios

06-09-2006, 12:33 AM

Ok, so here you go the exact settings for our production are as follows-

BTW- if you are interested, you can download the DVX Setup sheet I created and used for our production. It helps me a lot when we were doing testing of various settings, as well as keeping track of seetings while on set.

DVX Setup sheet: DOWNLOAD HERE (http://www.235studios.com/tutorials/235DVXSetupLog.pdf)

Camera Settings:
Aspect- 4:3
Gain- Low
WB- Manuel
Shutter- (Varried- off / 120 / 250)
Zoom- Not used, as we had it locked down to use the LetusFlip
f-stop- (Varied- but was usually around open - 2.8 & 3.4)
Focus- Not used, as we had it locked down to use the LetusFlip
OIS- Off
ND- None
Audio- 16bit / 48k
Mic Gain - 50db
Audio Ch- 1-In2 2-In2 (the gain on channel 2 was set a little lower then channel 1)
Detail: +7
V-Detail: +7
Detail Coring: +7
Chroma Level: 0
Chroma Phase: 0
Color Temp: 0
Master Ped: -5
Auto Iris: -2
Gamma: Cine Like
Knee: Auto
Skin Dtl: Off
Matrix: Normal
V-Detail Freq: Thin
Progressive: 24pa
35mm adapter: LetusFlip
Lenses: 28mm / 50mm / 135mm

there you go for those of you who were interested.

235 Studios

06-09-2006, 12:46 AM

Hi - nice job.

What I liked -
Your cinematography was great. Good depth, lighting, composition, etc.
...
To end on a more positive note - again, cinematography was great :).

Thanks, glad you liked it.

My inclination is that this fest is about creating a story in 6 min, not creating a portion of a larger idea in 6 min (or a trailer for a longer flick). Just my opinion.

It is not your opinion- the goal of the DVXfest is to tell a story within the specified time given. And our story could have been stronger.

With that said- Norm and I are both of the mind set (as he already mentioned) that we want to push ourselves further, and deliver better / higher quality with each production. And while the 6 min. limit is a fun challenge, we did not / do not want to let that hinder us- as we want to have something that we can take to other festivals and submit for competition else where. And having a long piece will help us in that endeavor. However, trying to cut 23 min into 6 min proved to be greater of a challenge then we had originally thought or planned for ...

Thanks for you input.

jpbankesmercer

06-09-2006, 03:10 AM

Ryan,
Thanx for the details and sheet.
How did you find the adapter setup? I'm thinking of investing in the look, giving the HVX time to breath before I jump on. How practical is it in setups and whats the pros and cons for you working with a softer image - apart from having to flood it with light?
Jp

PDX_DVX

06-09-2006, 07:16 AM

I'm glad everyone liked the look of the film, everyone on it worked very hard to achieve that. Big ups to 235studios for the visual aethsetic. Well done. I can say that it was a blast to work on this project. Norm deffinetly knows how to get things done. The whole crew worked really well together, and no one got angry at me when I stuck the BTS cam in their face and said "what do you think about this rain????!!!!". The food was also good, and one more thing....Norm is really good at arm wrestling.....

235 Studios

06-09-2006, 08:33 AM

Aparently the link to the DVX setup log was not working for some- I just fixed it and it should work fine now.

BTW- I'm putting together a setup log for the HVX as well, I'll let you know when it is ready.

235 Studios

06-09-2006, 09:06 AM

Ryan,
Thanx for the details and sheet.

No prob, glad I could help out.

How did you find the adapter setup?

On this shoot we used the DVX and the LetusFlip, here are my thoughts-

The original review Norm and I did of the 35mm adapters can be found here-
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=579827

The letusFlip that we were using on this shoot was an upgraded model that is supposed to have less light loss then the one we tested in the review. We did not have time to test this claim before our shoot, so I cannot verify it. Other then to say that is what we were told.

The positive:
The flip was great in that we were able to use 35mm lenses to get the narrow DoF that we had wanted. I also loved the fact that we did not have to flip the image.Not only was the adapter easier to use because of this- but when it came time to edit, we did not have to flip the image incurring more render time.

The adapter also do not require rails- but I would highly recommend using them, as I would not want that much weight hanging off of the end of my lens.

Overall, for the price (about $700) I think the adapter delivers some good images- as you can see from our footage.

The Negative:
LIGHT LOSS- While we did not test to see what the light loss of the adapter was, I would venture to guess that it is at least 2 stops. The added light loss added to the fact that we were shooting outside at night meant that we needed A LOT of light inorder to get the right exposure.

Air tighness- While this ubnit is VERY tight, and I doubt that it will get any dust on the inside of the adapter, it is not air tight. After working in and under the rain towers we had going, one of the adapters ended up getting water and condensation on the inside of the adapter, which meant that we were down a camera. It is not easy to get inside the adapter to remove the water, and Norm had to dissasemble it after the shoot to dry it out- even then the image was not what we wanted from that adapter as it appears that one of the mirrors had come miss aligned, giving us a ghost image / double image on screen.

Summary-
If you are using this adapter durring the day, out side, there is where the adapter preforms its best. If you are using it inside, or durring the night, be prepared with lights, and lots of them- which means that you will need to be prepared for extra setup time, and refinement of lights.

For the price ($700) I think it is a decent adapter for the DVX. If you want less light loss, as well as a rotating GG (The letus has a vibrating GG) then I would go with the M2- but your price double to about $1400. The M2 also does not flip your image.

If I have the setup time, the lights, I'm not in the rain, and I'm using the DVX, then I would use this adapter again.

Other thoughts-
I have not used this adapter with my HVX yet. I want to do some testing to see how it works with HD. I know SD is a lot more forgiving, so we will see how it preforms in HD ...

Also, the adapter is 72mm, so if you are going to use it on your HVX, you need a stepdown ring to go from your HVX 82mm to the Letus 72mm.

Another recommendation:
Get the indiFOCUS: http://www.indifocus.com . I found this tool very useful on set when needing to rack focus and hit my marks. It is a great tool, and works well with 35mm lenses, as well as with the DVX. I assume that it will work just as well with the HVX, but I have not used it with the HVX yet. So if you need an accurate focus, and you need to hit your mark every time- get this tool, it is a life saver.

PK Gillock

06-09-2006, 10:27 AM

I read the full script and it does fill in the gaps very nicely. Like spackle. :) The script will make for an interesting short. Good luck with the full production.

Larry R

06-09-2006, 10:59 AM

Yea, I have to agree with that. Jeffrey Hawley is a fantastic writer!! He was also instrumental in helping me iron out the wrinkles in my script as well.

Norm Sanders

06-09-2006, 11:03 AM

I read the full script and it does fill in the gaps very nicely. Like spackle. :) The script will make for an interesting short. Good luck with the full production.

Thanks, PK! Glad we've been able to redeem the script in your eyes. That was honestly important to me, as I don't want the rushed 6 minute version influence what people thought of the writing ... that would be the editor/director's fault (me). :)

abalex

06-09-2006, 11:20 AM

how can I play this video? bunch of codes came out.

thanks
g.

Dahopafilms

06-09-2006, 11:25 AM

Norm,

I just realized I hadn't posted comments on your film. This was one of the first I saw (by choice), so comments are overdue. And I haven't reviewed the nine pages of comments, so I may be totally repetitive (or nonsensical).

This short really interested me. I did read that it was a cut-down version of a longer presentation - and I really want to see the longer version.

The stuff I really liked:

Generally, I thought the lighting was awesome. Really nicely done. The shot where the "heroes" come down the stairs in the bank (?) and there was a flourescent lit tube on the ceiling and a standing lamp in the corner stands out in my mind. Nice job.
I liked the general set-ups of the shots. There was one close-up shot on the photo which I would have liked more in focus, but that's really nit picky. Again, really good job.
Wardrobe. Perfect! Lots of effort there. Great job!
I thought your male lead really knocked it out of the park. Very good acting in my book and totally believable. A big bow to him.
The effects were good. Nice green swirlies and glows. Worked for me.
The scoring was great (and speaking of scoring, Germany's now up 3:1 over Costa Rica), but see my comment below regarding the dialogue.

The stuff I wasn't too sure about:

Maybe this comment should be in the above section, but I LOVED the first three quarters of this. However, I thought the ending was really a let-down. It didn't work for me on several levels and I assume this was simply because you needed to leap to the end without tying everything together. That's also why I want to see the full version.
I hate to say this, but I just didn't like your female lead. I thought her lines were woody and simply not believable (and yes, I know she was dead). She looked great. It was just her delivery - and I do appreciate that the one really long set of lines in the (?) warehouse must have been brutal to deliver. I may be totally off base here - just an opinion.
The dialogue got a little muddy for me in places. But that may just have been my system.

Thanks for putting this together, and it has whetted my appetite for the long version. You guys clearly have significant horsepower here. I'm looking forward to seeing the full version.

Cheers.:thumbsup:

Norm Sanders

06-09-2006, 12:19 PM

EDIT: (screwed up the spelling for the username) Abalex, I've sent you a PM.

Thanks Dahopa! I THINK I've commented on your film ... at least I know my wife sure loved it & we both laughed together watching it. I'll double check though to make sure ... I'm planning on watching & commenting on all the rest tonight & tomorrow before judging is over. Just been a BUSY week trying to catch up from being out of the office for 3 weeks.

Okay, back to the comments ... really glad to hear that you want to see the longer version ... that's been a pretty consistant comment from users, for which we're quite glad.

You're right, the ending had to come VERY fast, and in this case too fast.

Female lead: Her first film & acting experience. That said, I believe she did a great job, and the only area that could be in question might be the dialogue in the warehouse ... as you stated, it's a killer, and the full cut's monologue is about twice as long. She's also questioned redoing it in ADR ... I'm just nervous about not being able to perfectly match her audio with the rest of the scene, and therefore having to pull back the other two talents as well & redo the entire scene, which will be a HUGE undertaking ... so I'm trying to weight out right now the return on investment, so to speak.

Ben Sliker

06-09-2006, 03:07 PM

Envision and 235,

First off, great work, I believe this shows much improvement over your sci-fest entry. I loved the look of the entire thing, the lighting is phenomenal. And your use of the adapters and depth field is great as well, a true testament to the ability of the DVX to create stunning pictures.

For the contests’ sake, I think that your film suffered greatly from being restricted to only 6 min, but since that’s the contest rule, I’ll keep to that. There are a lot of questions in there that are just left untouched because of the lack of time to further develop them.

Special FX: for the most part, really good, I would hack away a little more on Meltdown’s green, there are times when it looks like a stinky green cloud around him, is it supposed to be just his skin or like an “aura” around him? I would also look back on the motion tracking for the green eyes, if you look really closely, they sometimes tend to drift around, bringing attention that they are added in.

Sound: I think you’ve caught enough comments about it not being loud even so I won’t repeat, but I don’t think it’s the dialogue, I remember you told me for your sci-fest entry that you didn’t want to step on your composers feet, but it’s just too loud at some points. Secondly, kudos on getting a Skillet song, they f-ing rock. I’m from Kenosha, WI, and they lived there for the longest time. I was going to skillet concerts when they were the first 3 dudes and were playing in half of high school gymnasiums. I have to say I prefer collide over alien youth though. How did you contact them? Do you know them?

Acting: Ugh... I think the word that comes to mind as I watched this was stale. There were a few well-delivered lines, but the rest was a little painful, especially the monologue by Sparrow. I didn’t really feel for her as she explaining the effects of the sting. And then the “I can’t” afterwards would be okay, him putting his head in his hands is laughable. I’d switch it up so that he is still staring directly at her, or looking away. Sparrow’s line “You don’t understand, I am dead” is awesome, but then it’s followed up by the repeat “I am dead” which should just be cut out, it doesn’t heighten the emotion and sounds kinda silly.

I hope that was a makeshift title as well in the beginning, if everything else looks really good, I’d get some SFX on that as well.

I will definitely be checking out the full version of this. Kudos for style, content needs work at times.

jpbankesmercer

06-09-2006, 05:33 PM

Ryan,

Thanx much as I thought. Surprised about the condensation and use without rails, best to have everything solid, especially if you intend to hire in a lens or two eh?

I'm sold, gonna try a setup on my next shoot.

Thanks for all your information, best of luck to you. I admire you both for pushing the boundaries for us mere mortals.

J.p.

Norm Sanders

06-09-2006, 05:48 PM

LOL! JP, you're too much. In defense of that Letus, I don't think any other 35 adapters would have survived the amount of water we put it through. It was directly being hit by the rain towers, while we were at least protecting the camera ... at some points we had the lense pointed right up into the rain for the low perspective of our thug in the alley (in the full cut), etc.

I've joked about our next 35mm adapter review including the "bath tub test" for anyone that claims their adapter's air tight. If they say it is, it'll go in a tub of water to prove the claim.

Hybrid, thanks for the detailed comments. Yes, the title is totally temporary, as it's not even the title of the full cut. But, you've given me a great idea ... I didn't have ANY SFX for the full cut's title, which I'll be sure to implement now. Thanks for that! :thumbsup:

Ben Sliker

06-09-2006, 05:58 PM

hey, i do my best, i look forward to doing battle with you for horrorfest, that is, if you are in. he he.

Norm Sanders

06-09-2006, 06:14 PM

hey, i do my best, i look forward to doing battle with you for horrorfest, that is, if you are in. he he.

You're on! :beer: My wife SO wishes I'd sit it out, and I really should as I'm in development of a much larger project (one that'll goaled to spring board a feature for next fall), but I've got a good idea of one I think I can do in just one or two days with a TINY crew, and even smaller cast. That said, she thinks it'd be cool if I did a horror spoof (comical), but that's a totally different direction than my initial idea.

Seeing what you had cookin' for Sci-Fest, I bet you'll have a killer entry.

235 Studios

06-09-2006, 07:41 PM

Ryan,

Thanx much as I thought. Surprised about the condensation

As Norm said we had A LOT of water coming down- I'm not sure that other adapters would have survived either. And out of the two adapters we had, only one "failed".

and use without rails, best to have everything solid, especially if you intend to hire in a lens or two eh?

Yes, rails are a must, it attaches via threads, but I wouldn't want that much weight hanging off my camera ....

I'm sold, gonna try a setup on my next shoot.

Just remember that this was with the DVX. I have yet to test it with the HVX.

Thanks for all your information, best of luck to you. I admire you both for pushing the boundaries for us mere mortals.

J.p.

No problem, glad to help.

jhawley

06-10-2006, 12:32 AM

Hey all, this is Jeff Hawley, writer and (for two nights of filming) set lackey. Thanks for all the feedback! It's been a great experience working on the project, and I'm looking forward to checking out the rest of the submissions.

Norm Sanders

06-10-2006, 12:50 AM

Hey Jeff, glad to see you on here! Even though you can't vote until you've got 100 posts, I bet you could give some GREAT feedback to some of the other films' threads. And if anyone else comes sniffing around Jeff for script writing, I found him first! :)

235 Studios

06-10-2006, 08:19 AM

Welcome aboard Jeff- Glad you are a part of the community now.

It was fun to have Jeff on set- as well as helping out with various tasks, he was able to give some good insight into the setup, and acting.

I can't wait to see some of his bigger projects make it to screen- he has got some great ideas!

Norm Sanders

06-10-2006, 02:26 PM

Hi Everyone, for those who've had issues getting the mp4 file to play, you can now download the mov file from the front of this thread by right clicking on the poster & saving it to your hard drive: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=575020#post575020

I've rec'd permission from Jarred on this in advance, and there have been no content changes to the file, though the sound compression is better, which I expected after hearing the mp4 myself.

If you've not seen the film, or would like to view it again with the better audio compression, please feel free.

Thanks,
Norm

WilderWorks

06-10-2006, 07:11 PM

All I can really say is, I very much look forward to seeing the full length version of this one.

Norm Sanders

06-11-2006, 12:14 AM

You won't be disappointed. :)

MOVIE STUNTS

06-11-2006, 03:51 AM

I loved the way you shot this thing, great flow and cuts.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-11-2006, 08:37 AM

OK dude.

Your my last film to comment on. I sorted by least comments and went through hitting the films with fewer comments and views first.

So then I wanted to save you for last so you'd be "special".

Congratulations man. Another quantum leap in production and filmmaking. I keep going back and forth on my score card between you cand Cache for top honors. You get dinged not on story but on this edit of the story and your mix (I watched the .mov after the mp4 and still there are times when the dialogue is overpowered by score or ambient sound or verb).

But it looks great -- REALLY -- and I liked your actors a lot, particularly the dude, and the production value and the way score and all of it worked together.

One acting note (even though he was my fav). I think you missed an opportunity (or two) to make the exposition about what happened at the bank more active. I mean why would he sit there and recount that like that? Makes even less sense in light of the fact its a lie. So two areas to have explored would be (or maybe one really since its a lie): If you play it straight he should actively be trying to get her to help him put the pieces back together "I can't believe you're alive ... I don't understand ... I saw this happen ... and this happen ... and this ..." etc. Right now its internal and seems like he's just voicing a bad memory out loud for little reason, where the former makes it externally motivated -- i.e., needing her to help him solve it ... the second option would be (and this would work nice with the camera angle) is that he's acting like he's reliving the memory while watching VERY closely too see how it lands on her. In otherwords trying to find out if she knows it's a lie or if she's aware of any chinks in his version of the story. Of course that would be the real motivation for either action, seeing what she's figured out on her own, and if he should feel threatened. Right now, again, it seems too passive and therefore expository, and I don't think there are any shots featuring her in that exchange (showing that she's legitimately confused about what happened, etc.) This is a smaller note than it seems because it took so much space for me to thouroughly explain it.

It's hard not to get sucked into this thing thinking "this is a movie. this is a REAL movie".

I'm definately in line for the full version! Can't wait. Even though I liked Pandora's Box better (jk) :grin:

You pointed out some simmilarites between us in my thread, to reiterate here and add a couple: you and I have both been shooting for nine months, are the only ones to have entered all three of the last contests, and we are the same age within a day. Spooky. We should have done a Sci Fi on us. (cue twilight zone theme). Also if you put out last names together we woul make a name brand hardware product line - Stanley Sanders, lol.

Jack

Shaun Patrick

06-11-2006, 08:52 AM

You pointed out some simmilarites between us in my thread, to reiterate here and add a couple: you and I have both been shooting for nine months, are the only ones to have entered all three of the last contests, and we are the same age within a day. Spooky. We should have done a Sci Fi on us. (cue twilight zone theme). Jack

That is very eerie...

9 months only? Wow, that is super impressive and I can't wait to see what you're putting out in 18 months...

EDIT: Not rain on the eerie parade though...we did also enter the last three contests (BRAINS!!, Signal Decay, and J.U.L.)

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-11-2006, 08:57 AM

We also have boring English Names. Nothing worse than an English Name. Norm Sanders. Jack Stanley. Might as well be Vanilla Vanilla. I'd kill for a good Irish name like Shaun Patrick for example. But best are latin names like Escobar Villa de Los Lobos ... maybe I'll change mine. :cheesy:

Shaun Patrick

06-11-2006, 08:58 AM

I'd kill for a good Irish name like Shaun Patrick for example.

Sounds likes you're already working on the horrorfest idea...:locks door:

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-11-2006, 09:29 AM

That is very eerie...

9 months only? Wow, that is super impressive and I can't wait to see what you're putting out in 18 months...

EDIT: Not rain on the eerie parade though...we did also enter the last three contests (BRAINS!!, Signal Decay, and J.U.L.)
D'oh. Brains is one of my favorites from all of the fests. I forgot that you did signal decay. I knew I would probably forget someone that was a 3X vet.

Sounds likes you're already working on the horrorfest idea...:locks door:
Yes and now I'm in Brooklyn, so my psychotic break only has to last a few train rides.

Norm Sanders

06-11-2006, 11:58 AM

Sounds likes you're already working on the horrorfest idea...:locks door:

LOL! Yeah Shaun, I knew you'd been in all three too, but didn't know how long you've been filming. 'Bout the same time?

I'm saving yours for last, as it's gotten a lot of attention, so I'll be watching & giving notes today. I only jumped on Jack's right away because we've been kind of keeping each other abreast of our productions during the various phases, so I was excited to see how it turned out ... and wasn't disappointed.

BTW, thanks for the stab Jack about liking PANDORA better. Funny stuff, but since that was SO vanilla (Oh gee, scientists unlock some power they can't control - THAT'S original!), I could never believe anyone saying that.

Also thanks for the notes. Though it's too late now, I do like your first idea of having him see if she can help him piece it together, but the second wouldn't work as that would tell us sooner than something's up with him. As it sits right now, I really like it it in that we're thinking right along with her that he's the good guy & truly distraught. Only when we watch it the second time do we know that everything he's telling her is absolute BS, so it should give us a different emotion/feeling when watching the second time.

Not to mention, this scene was CHOPPED in several spots, taking it to less than 1/2 of it's original, so the full cut is even that much better for this scene as well ... some good emotion in there.

Thanks guys!

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-11-2006, 12:14 PM

...Though it's too late now, I do like your first idea of having him see if she can help him piece it together, but the second wouldn't work as that would tell us sooner than something's up with him. As it sits right now, I really like it it in that we're thinking right along with her that he's the good guy & truly distraught....yeah obviously too late now, hope it doesn't feel like I'm mentioning it just to poke a stick at you, it's for future reference on a simmilar scene.

I think the watching carefully thing could be done so its not telegraphed, but just seen as him being suspicous as to why or how she could have gotten here.

Oh ... you know what ... Aram is a three time vet too ... who else?

Norm Sanders

06-11-2006, 12:20 PM

I think Aerialman might be too (Ian).

Ramon Boutviseth

06-11-2006, 10:50 PM

hey.. nice work, your craft is getting better with every film. You have some good production value here. The rain shots were very nice. Im curious to how much the budget for this film was, since you had access to two letusflips! I checked ur lighting list.. how much light exactly did u had to blast at your subject for it to be expose right?

Norm Sanders

06-12-2006, 02:03 AM

Hey Ramon, thanks for the kind words.

For lighting, it depended on if it was interior or not, but often times we had at LEAST 3,000 watts going, if not sometimes 4K+. Our brightest bulbs we had were 1K tungstens, so we typically had at least 3 lamps going, sometimes 4, with an additional home depot set up as well.

The Letus Flips wouldn't figure into the budget, since they're equipment that would be used on future projects, so the hard up front cost for this was between $800-1K, which $450 of it was just for food for the 4 days and a cast & crew of up to 25.

Going with the deferred pay method (there's a thread in the Hero forum for this), it's more likely around $10-12K ... which I aim to be able to make in eventual sales & surprise our cast/crew with some actual cash for their efforts. Especially since none of them have ever seen a dime from deferred on other projects they've worked on with other producers/directors.

FatBird19

06-12-2006, 12:44 PM

Hey Envision, I'm sure this has been answered several times, but what 35mm adapter did you use?

Norm Sanders

06-12-2006, 01:01 PM

We used the Letus35 Flip Enhanced ... one each for both DVX100a's.

FatBird19

06-12-2006, 01:14 PM

We used the Letus35 Flip Enhanced ... one each for both DVX100a's.

cool. How's the sharpness on those? Can you post any full rez shots?

Norm Sanders

06-12-2006, 01:22 PM

I'll see what I can do. Sharpness naturally declines some with any 35 adapter (some more than others), so we CRANKED the details up to the maximum in the DVX's to help offset it, which seems to help a lot.

Brandon Rice

06-12-2006, 01:27 PM

Yeah Norm, it would be cool to see some FULL RES stills.

235 Studios

06-12-2006, 04:23 PM

cool. How's the sharpness on those? Can you post any full rez shots?

Norm and I did a full review of the adapter which you can find at this thread, it has images and footage:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=50590

Otherwise it looks like Norm may be posting some stills later.

Norm Sanders

06-12-2006, 04:42 PM

I will get some up (hopefully tonight), but keep in mind when looking at examples in that article that we weren't trying to get the BEST images ... in other words, we hadn't tweaked out the camera(s) to maximize the adapters as we had for this film. So I'd wager to say that the images in the film are superior to anything you'll see in that article.

JimtheJib

06-12-2006, 05:54 PM

i haven't read any the wopping 13 pages so forgive me if i am redundant or repeat something that has already been said.

the visuals on this were amazing. i really liked the shallow dof and the lighting. it was very soft and it contrasted with the story.

there was one line that i though was ridiculous and it really brought me out of the story. the line about the cockroach was too long and delivered too mechanically. it made me laugh. i don't mean to be harsh but... "this was enslaves cockroaches" was too much. you should have found a simpler metaphor or comparison instead of the wasp and cockroach.

alex

spidey

06-13-2006, 08:02 AM

Heres my review of the film.

STORY: The story was unhearable. Anything you could hear you still didn't know what it was about. Something about a woman who was killed, by cockroaches, who came back to life, and had "super throw" and could people down. Other that I just know she was decieved, but why? I dont' know. This is mostly due to Audio reasons. See Below. Ending is too quick and leaves ????? to viewer more than it should had.

SFX: My friend said, " A poor example of rotoscoping and visual effects." You need visual effect supervisor if you dont have one. It will help you out so much. Other than that you can't say much.

SOUND: Very poor audio, can't hear anything. Soundtrack overrides all dialogue which makes everything difficult to understand. S story is lost and everything is leaving viewers in utter confusion. make sure ALL Dialogue is hearable than soundtrack.

SOUNDTRACK: sounded good but override. The song that breaks away after " I can't be saved" breaks story and what you had already (reminded me of MTV reality moment.). music clash. it ruined the flow you had. The music was good till that but made audio unhearable.

ACTORs: Acting seemed ok. A little over acting especially with the NOOOOOOOOO. Cliche. Made me Laugh more than care. The actor were overriden by audio once again so acting detail is lost and left in confusions. when the woman talks about roachs with green eyes makes me thing she was read the script we just could see her eyes and she was still. Pretty Women though.

CINEMATOGRAPHY: Good shots you told me about the greyness which look like a compression issue. The shots in the house were good but the warehouse look too open and set look undecorated look un interesting.

Overall I didn't know what was going on and lost interest due to audio and storyline was strange about cockroaches..... Work better with audio and script and you might have something.

Norm Sanders

06-13-2006, 09:41 AM

Thanks Spidey for the details. So why or how could this have ended up in your top six films as great, when in fact the only two good things you found were the sound track & some good shots?

Just curious, but thanks again for the details vs. the previous general comments.

spidey

06-13-2006, 11:04 AM

the cinematography mostly. looks better than most. me being a DP director I liked it. And yours looked better than most of the others. I still got to comment on others.

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 05:38 PM

Ok, here you go- the following are stills (PNG's) taken from the footage- they are at full res-

Meltdown:
http://www.235studios.com/hero/meltdowncantbesaved.png

Sparrow 01:
http://www.235studios.com/hero/sparrowmonolgue.png

Sparrow 02:
http://www.235studios.com/hero/wardenheadquarters.png

Sparrow 03:
http://www.235studios.com/hero/widowbehind.png

Hope you enjoy!

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 05:39 PM

ARGH!!! Now they will not show ... hold on, I'll let you know when it is fixed- somethings up with my server- the URL's are correct (At least when I view it via FTP ...)

Brandon Rice

06-13-2006, 05:40 PM

hm... not seeing the images.

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 06:28 PM

Yeah, I know, I'm working with tech support right now, something on my site is not working the way it should the links are as follows- if they don't work the first time try pressing refresh, that seems to work:
http://www.235studios.com/hero/meltdowncantbesaved.png
http://www.235studios.com/hero/sparrowmonolgue.png
http://www.235studios.com/hero/wardenheadquarters.png
http://www.235studios.com/hero/widowbehind.png

Brandon Rice

06-13-2006, 07:10 PM

Nice shots... still don't know if I LIKE the different grain that the Letus adapter gives the image... I like the grain that is on the stock lens better I think... it feels more natural.

Norm Sanders

06-13-2006, 07:15 PM

So yeah, it's a little late in the festival now, but I was just talking to Ryan today about the cut we SHOULD have had in the festival, which wouldn't have felt rushed & probably would have been a lot more satisfying.

Start the film as is, go ALL THE WAY THROUGH the existing scene where he's telling her how she died, how the other Wardens died, etc., then go all the way through to when she finds the stinger, and up to when he comes in & drops the glass.

The entire sequence itself actually takes up a little over 6 1/2 minutes, so there'd still be a LITTLE cutting, but not much.

SHOOT! Hind sight is 20/20, right?

Brandon Rice

06-13-2006, 07:20 PM

wow... that would have worked... :( too bad dude... Hindsight is always 20/20... stinks for the most part.

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 07:36 PM

Well it looks like the links and the picts are working now ...

Shaun Patrick

06-13-2006, 07:39 PM

Thanks for posting those stills guys. It's interesting to see how the Letus is handling things...I'm working with the M2 right now and I've had a hell of a time finding the right lens combination/scene settings/perfect back focus.

Were you guys using a Letus Flip or the older version?

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 09:08 PM

For this entry we used the Flip. So our SiFi entry we used the regular version.

235 Studios

06-13-2006, 09:09 PM

the cinematography mostly. looks better than most. me being a DP director I liked it. And yours looked better than most of the others. I still got to comment on others.

Thanks for the comments and input.

Glad you liked the cinematography. :)

Cryogenic Filmworks

06-14-2006, 07:42 PM

Nice sountrack. Not sure if it was intended but some place was too loud and drowned out the dialouge. Your lead actor's voice reminded me of Kevin Bacon. Nice camera and lighting work. :thumbsup:

penfever

06-15-2006, 05:57 AM

There was a lot to like about this film. Like most of the films, the soundtrack was excellent. I think you have a gift for working with actors, which is probably the most important job a director has to do in the first place. Performances were quite believable, and that's a big deal, especially for sci-fi where there's such a leap of faith to accept the story.
I found the plot very difficult to follow. I think as a rule of thumb, if you need a page of backstory to get your point across, you should be telling a simpler story. Next time around I'd do some extra sanity-checking of your script with people who don't know it (or you) that well.
The cinematography was tasteful and restrained, but I'd look for a more compelling location next time. Setting a film in an apartment is a good choice *practically*, but since you have total control over the location, I'm expecting top-notch framing and set dressing with every shot. The framing of the coat sequence was particularly obtuse, as we didn't get a good look at the object she was examining.
Great film, and see you next fest.

Norm Sanders

06-15-2006, 09:37 AM

Thanks, Penfever, but as I've said before it's not the script ... it was the editing unfortunately that makes this harder to follow, trying to cram a 23 minute film into 6 minutes.

Not that it matters now, but I'm going to put together the cut of what I SHOULD have entered into the fest (hind sight's 20/20), and post it up here in the next several days. I think people will find it a lot more satisfying, and it's still quite self contained.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Norm Sanders

06-15-2006, 01:28 PM

www.eefilm.com/sparrow (http://www.eefilm.com/sparrow)

Now that the festival judging has closed, we've taken the password protect off the website ... you can now view additional BTS pics from scenes not included in the DVXuser cut, as well as backstory, cast/crew photos & more.

A DVD with the full 23 minute cut, and TONS of Behind The Scenes (yes, it also includes my "Norm's Famous Ribs" ala Robert Rodriquez Cooking School 101 style) will be available for purchase in about a month. DVD's will be fully retail packaged in an Amaray case, complete with poly overwrap, like you just purchased it right off the shelf. :)

Please note that the DVXuser cut is not the best representation of the film for story. I will post the cut I SHOULD have put up within a few days, after we've gotten back the completed & permanent VFX by our very own Steve_Arm out of Athens, Greece (I've seen the work in progress, and it's extremely nice!).

abalex

06-15-2006, 01:53 PM

I really like the cinematography but didn't like some of the effects. I kind of get the main idea but don't understand the whole thing yet(the whole insect thing). Looking forward for more.

g.

Norm Sanders

06-15-2006, 03:22 PM

Yeah, the FX were temporary by a completely different artist, just for this short version to get it in on time.

Texture

06-16-2006, 11:22 AM

Looking forward to the full version...

Please keep us posted!!!

Norm Sanders

06-21-2006, 07:16 PM

Okay, I've deleted the DVXuser 6 minute cut, and have temporarily placed up the full scene that SHOULD have been worked into the 6 minute submission instead ... I think it would have worked a lot better. Hind sight's 20/20, right?

This is still only less than 1/3 of the entire film, but a good scene that still has a beginning, middle & end.

Final VFX and audio sweetening still in the works. Final BTS material being shot this weekend (Rib recipe/cooking school being shot on Friday), and the DVD is expected to be ready by mid July.

Anyone who wants to see the 6.5 minute cut from the film, just right click on the poster at the front of this thread (still being uploaded with 12+ minutes to go - 45MB total).

235 Studios

06-21-2006, 07:40 PM

Must still be uploading??? I just tested it, and I got the 404 error- file does not exsist.

Brandon Rice

06-21-2006, 07:47 PM

Its working for me... right click... save as.

Norm Sanders

06-21-2006, 07:47 PM

Link was off by one letter. Fixed now.

Brandon Rice

06-21-2006, 07:57 PM

Awesome... it's a MUCH better way to tell the story Norm... I think it kind of moves slow for me... and it does feel like a small portion of a larger story, but it works better than the other cut... can't wait to see the full version!

EJ Pennypacker

07-06-2006, 05:22 PM

Envision,

I just viewed some of your six min sample of THE SPARROW.

Very nice visuals/ acting/ direction. Although I noticed the 180 rule broke many times.

What gives?

EJ

Norm Sanders

07-06-2006, 06:30 PM

I don't follow you, EJ ... want to give some examples? Ryan's a STICKLER on the 180 rule, so I'd be hard pressed to see him breaking it (he was the DP), not to mention when I watch it, for each shot it appears to be in place to me.

Again, some specific examples/time codes would be great, thanks.

Glad you liked what you saw though. On the website we have Trailer A up & running & Trailer B should be up in the next day or so. Also have some fun wallpapers up as well, and hope to have the completed DVD available within the next two weeks.

EJ Pennypacker

07-06-2006, 07:05 PM

Just so we're on the same page here :) I'm talking about the 6.5 min TEASE version with time-code http://www.sparrow-themovie.com/html/thefilm/sparrowteaser.html

It's just only at the top of the tease, but here goes:

05:16 - 180 issue here

05:20 - 180 line crossed no?

05:26 - 180 again

The film poster of the SPARROW in the rain is amazing. Totally professional. I hope you use that image to sell your film.

EJ

Norm Sanders

07-06-2006, 08:57 PM

Oh, thanks for the time codes, EJ! In looking at those, I'm guessing you're thinking the 180 should be with the front of the house or the door? So if we go past the door we're crossing the line?

The 180 rule, from the way I understand it is that you can start your camera anywhere in the scene, which establishes one POV. From there, draw a straight line out of the lens ... as if you're shooting a bullet & you follow the trajectory. Then, you can place your camera/POV anywhere within that scene, as long as the camera doesn't cross BEYOND that trajectory, facing from the opposite direction.

So using the above definition, since we start out looking JUST over her left shoulder, we have clear until POV from just behind HIS left shoulder to still be within the 180 ... if we had crossed over to where we were looking from over his RIGHT shoulder, then we would have crossed it.

BTW, we've got two pretty cool shots of Sparrow in the rain in the alley ... the one at the front of this thread, where she's walking towards us, and another where she's rising from the ground (now located on www.myspace.com/normsanders (http://www.myspace.com/normsanders)), which used to be in this thread ... which were you referring to? Glad you loved it, either way!

235 Studios

07-07-2006, 12:32 AM

First off, I'm glad that you liked the look, acting, and the teaser. The full cut is coming along nicely. I know I'm excited to see it come together. (As is Norm)

On to your 180 question-

05:16 - 180 issue here

The line of action in this scene goes straight through the actors, and from Sparrows view we are right on the line of action. From Meltdowns view we are about 110 degrees into the line of action on the right side. I guess technically you could say that the line was crossed by a couple of inches, as the actors shift weight, moving their placement between shots.

05:20 - 180 line crossed no?

I do not see how this could be crossing the line, as it is a CU of Meltdown, with him in center frame. Again, if anything it would be directly on the line of action.

05:26 - 180 again

I'm not seeing this one- it is a CU of Sparrow.

The 180 rule is ment to keep actors on the same side of the screen to provide continuity when viewing. In that sequence, sparrow appears on the left side of the screen, while meltdown appears on the right. The only times this does not occur is in the wide shots when we are on the line of action and they are in the center of the screen. (And in some CU's)

Hope that helps. :)

EJ Pennypacker

07-07-2006, 09:24 AM

Envision,

Yeah, the pic that's used at the beginning of this thread is the sweet one!

My point is that we cut from over Sparrows left shoulder to establish the scene, then when we cut back to the CU of her face, it's from the Meltdowns left shoulder, when it should be his right shoulder no? To me, it just throws the scene off with all the various angles in which it cuts.

Just my two cents. Like I said, very nice work. Very pro looking. Looking forward to seeing more. :)

EJ

235 Studios

07-08-2006, 09:48 AM

My point is that we cut from over Sparrows left shoulder to establish the scene, then when we cut back to the CU of her face, it's from the Meltdowns left shoulder, when it should be his right shoulder no?

I can see your point. I guess that I would then have to say, that it is not the following shots that are off, but rather the begining shot- as the following shots are more consistent.

To me, it just throws the scene off with all the various angles in which it cuts.

If it throws you off, than there is not much I can say bout that- since that is how you precieve it- I can't argue that point. But what I can say, is that I do not find it disrtacting, nor disorentating. I have watched many movies in which the 180 was radically crossed, and I was still able to follow the action. Anyway, I'm glad that overall you liked it. Thanks for your thoughts, and criticism- I appreciate being kept on my toes!