What RED really needs to make the revolution complete

[ZaneIsNumber1]

Having looked through some of the great suggestions already posted, I was at a loss to think of any technical idea that hadn't already been covered. So I'll put this too you...

What RED needs is us. It needs us as filmmakers and artists to put in the effort and to produce our best work. RED knocks away the limitations, both technically and financially. It narrows the playing field between indies and Hollywood. We no longer have excuses for mediocrity. The limitation is imagination (terrifying for some, I know). So let's show we have the edge.

And when the dust settles, and they ask us how we did it..?

We did it with RED.

I look forward to my first RED production.

Zane.

[-zach-]

They can even use that as their slogan.

"ZaneIsNumber1 did it with RED. You can do it, with RED."

Good idea, and if there ever is one, I look forward to my first RED production.

Z

[The Noble Robot]

Well, I'd love to look forward to my first RED production, but we're still talking a likely $25,000 investment in the camera body plus workable lens/whatever else is needed to simply shoot video. Plus, there's the extra cost for media/HD. Then, another $5,000 (minimum!) investement in a computer to actually edit, not to mention a $5,000-10,000 super-HD monitor (if they even exist) to actually view the 4K footage at pixel-true resolution (or a $2,500 HD-capable monitor, at the very least). Plus, there's the investment in whatever software (Avid Media?) is capable of editing 4K footage (I doubt bubbly FCP will be capable in time).

Plus, going from the gear nessessary to shoot a DVX or even HVX production to what's required for RED won't be cheap, even for already well-equiped filmmakers.

So I estimate a RED start-up production will cost upwards of $50,000. And that's a conserative guess, it'll probobly cost a lot more.

While I consider myself an accomplished DV filmmaker, I barely scraped together enough cash for a DVX alone. As far as I'm concerned, RED is still in the far-off world of millionaires and Hollywood. If a 200-million-dollar movie is the top of the tallest tree in the forest, RED is like the branch that's about 5 feet taller than my highest reach. They're both equally out of reach to me.

Plus, even if a DV filmmaker can afford a bare minimum RED setup (or if rental units plus editing time is widely available and affordable) then still, what's the point of shooting 4K if you don't have million-dollar lighting, lenses, makeup, and effects??

So while I think RED is beyond amazing, and a vital and groundbreaking first step, I seriously doubt that the "RED community" will be a truely indie crowd for many, many years...

[ZaneIsNumber1]

So while I think RED is beyond amazing, and a vital and groundbreaking first step, I seriously doubt that the "RED community" will be a truely indie crowd for many, many years...

A good point, I don't disagree at all. I doubt much will be shot at 4k for quite some time and it definitely takes more than a good camera to make a good looking film.

For most indie productions (that I've worked on), the camera or stock is the biggest expense. If RED delivers what it's claiming at its proposed price, the competition will have to respond and hopefully drop the prices of HD equipment. This will be good for all of us and not just RED users. It all helps to level the playing field.

But if you're lucky enough to have some production funds to play with (and I'm not talking Hollywood budgets), RED will offer a serious opportunity to give your film a look that defies its cost.

Zane

[The Noble Robot]

If RED delivers what it's claiming at its proposed price, the competition will have to respond and hopefully drop the prices of HD equipment.

Very good point!

[ZaneIsNumber1]

My thread got moved! Oh, well...

This started in the 'think tank' incase anyone was confused by the first post.

[Isaac_Brody]

I moved it. I didn't think of your post as an idea Red could implement, even though I think most will agree with what you wrote. And the sentiment has been brought up many times. Welcome to the forum. :)

[donatello]

"RED start-up production will cost upwards of $50,000"
"what's the point of shooting 4K if you don't have million-dollar lighting, lenses, makeup, and effects??"
"RED is still in the far-off world of millionaires and Hollywood"
"I seriously doubt that the "RED community" will be a truely indie crowd for many, many years..."

this is just plain NEGATIVE thinking, NO revolution/imagination thinking here ..

i think one could get into RED for 25k ... RED camera, recording media, one used zoom lens ( b4 or S16) maybe few other used items OR one could get RED , recording media , full set of zeiss/cooke primes and a cooke zoom and spend 200K ...
true your current computer may not be enough for 4k but why do you have to shoot 4k? if you can't afford to POST 4k why not shoot 720P, or 1080p or 2k ?
RED is about shooting different formats - having options - you shoot what fits your budget/project which might be 1080p this time and maybe next project you shoot 2k full sensor using rented 35mm lens ?? ..

do you really need a 4k monitor on set ? if you have the $$ you rent it - if you don't have $$ you don't have a 4k monitor on set.. there are work arounds. but you have to think INDIE not what does hollywood do ...

if you want a RED - you may have to be creative ! maybe 2-3 persons go in to buy one - lets face it camera's tend to sit in closets many days ...
can't afford to buy any camera .. then you convince somebody that has a RED to shoot your project or let you use it for FREE !!!

INDIE calls for being creative - thinking outside of normal ways of doing what hollywood does ...

[Gibby]

The big problem most RED camera users will have is not having broad enough skill sets, experience, and imaginations to match the potential uses of the camera...

Indie films, somehow called "films" even though no actual film will be involved in the entire workflow, are only one of the many genres of production enabled by the RED camera. The RED camera system is being designed for use in cine-style and ENG-style production environments. If you analyze the formats, resolutions, form factor, lens mount options, etc. of the proposed RED camera, it's designed for you to make it what you want it to be. The genre of the project will necessarily determine the production style and how the camera is accessorized and used. If you do strictly one style or even one genre within that style of production, by all means, accessorize the camera for exactly your style of production. If you do multiple genres within a particular style, you'll need to either buy additional accessories to accommodate that, or more cost-effectively, simply rent the occasionally needed accessories on a per-project basis.

So, is a $50k USD investment necessary to create a RED camera production workflow? Your RED associated equipment can be as expensive as you want it to be, or there will be ways to start out on a limited budget. If you can swallow your “I’m only an indie film producer” pride, and initially produce projects in some of the many genres I’ve listed above, you can then generate the revenue to eventually be able to limit your production down to a few genres that are your greatest interest.

Cost-effective RED workflow: RED One camera body = $17.5k USD. RED Drive onboard storage = probably under $1k USD as stated by RED. Rent everything else and build it into the budget quoted to the client – camera support, lens (s), lights, audio, monitor, edit bay time, etc. Hire freelance crew as need, and build that into your client-billed budget. Use the profit from the first few projects to then purchase only the equipment that you would use on a weekly basis. Always rent anything that you wouldn’t use on a weekly basis. Do a bunch of 2k, 1080p, and 1080i projects to build revenue – then consider doing some 4k projects.

My company, Cut4 Media Group, does a fair amount of cine-style production, but we also shoot a lot of ENG-style material. We own a fair amount of frequently used equipment, but simply rent everything else on a per-project basis, and build it into the project budget. Here's a partial matrix of the production genres that Cut4 Media Group will use our RED One cameras for:

- Feature films (4k or 2k)
- Indie films (2k or 1080p)
- HDTV programs and stock footage in the following genres: alternative sports, adventure travel, music, reality, documentaries, cultures, cuisine, mainstream travel, military, nature, events, mainstream sports (1080p or 720p)
- Commercials (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Infomercials (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Business videos (1080p or 720p)
- News b-roll (1080i for news, and 1080p for promos)
- POV deck (1080p or 720p, with a cigar cam)
- POV vehicle mount camera (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- In-water camera with a custom housing (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Aerial hand held and aircraft mounted (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Teaching tools for workshops (selected formats)
- Events (1080p, 1080i, 720p)
- Film festival demonstrations (selected formats)
- Broadcast teases and promos (1080p and 720p)
- Public service announcement (1080p and 720p)

And there will undoubtedly be many more uses and genres we will think of!! The RED camera will morph into whatever you want it to, depending on accessories.

Enterprising and perceptive people who are budget-challenged will analyze the broad revenue-generating potential of the RED camera, buy a basic RED system, put it to work in every genre possible, rent everything beyond the basic camera system on a per-project basis, eventually aggregate enough capital to purchase their regularly-used accessories, and then specialize into the genre of production that is their greatest interest.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
RED camera #8

[donatello]

RED #8 !!!! wow !!
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the envy !^#^$#$_+ ...

[Gibby]

Hey Donatello-

Yeah - I even sleep with a smile on my face nowdays!

You're based in Northern California, and I'm based just south of you a ways, near San Luis Obispo. When I get #8, come on down and check it out. We'll go out and get some test footage. Bring any lenses you might have that will work on it. Gonna be fun...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
RED camera #8

[donatello]

OK, accept the invite !! i'll come to San Luis Obispo .. I'll take care of lunch - you bring RED#8 ..

if RED 103 arrives before ( ha ha) you get RED 8 then you're invited up this way !!

[Tzedekh]

The big problem most RED camera users will have is not having broad enough skill sets, experience, and imaginations to match the potential uses of the camera...That could be said of any camera. I hope that RED won't enable a film that shouldn't be distributed, get distributed, but improve the chances of a film that might not otherwise get distributed (the eleventh DV production pitched to a producer that day) but should. Plus it'll help production techniques previously feasible only for $100 million blockbusters to trickle down to low-budget films.

[ZaneIsNumber1]

That could be said of any camera. I hope that RED won't enable a film that shouldn't be distributed, get distributed, but improve the chances of a film that might not otherwise get distributed (the eleventh DV production pitched to a producer that day) but should.

I agree totally. You can pour your heart into a project only to discover its potential is diminished because you could only afford to shoot on standard definition video.

And forget 4k! Red will be a godsend shooting 1080p as far as I'm concerned! (1080p is good enough for Superman Returns after all)

[Haakon]

I think what Gibby said is right on the mark. It's like any system, really - you can always throw more money at it, but it will still be an extremely viable tool in its "barebones" form.

The two things I can't wait for Red more than anything else are vastly improved latitude and true 35mm DOF and FOV right out of the box. No adapters to jerryrig or post production tricks to have to adapt. For me, everything else is just butter. I can't imagine I'm going to be using 4K for quite awhile, but a 1080 picture downrezzed (internally!) from that 4K image ought to look pretty darn sweet. Throw in all the cool stuff like 120fps in the windowed modes and its myriad of upgradable options and on paper, anyway, this thing looks next to perfect. Would a 4K monitor and 8 core Mac to edit the footage with be nice things to have? Of course. But can you make a movie with nothing more than the camera, a storage magazine, and a lens? Yes. And assuming it's worlds ahead of where the HVX is at now, that's pretty much all that matters to me.

[omen]

4K this 4K that....
Who needs 4k for now ? 4k monitor ? Come on guys...
If you're not satisfied with exceptional 2k in your hands and still want Hollywood quality in your indie studio I have to say to you - wake up.
I'll be pretty happy with 2k for few years. When 20-or-so core computers and holographic storage arrive I'll think of 4k.
And if I make a film for theaters in poor 2k I'll just have to live with that horrible thought.