C A C H E - snodart/theloniusjones

[snodart]

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C A C H E

Created by:
Justin Snodgrass (snodart)
Tim Young (theloniusjones)

CAST
Robbie Nell: David Concannon
Watch Customer: Amy Young-Snodgrass
Psychiatrist: Herman Janssen
Young Mr. Nell: Hanna Snodgrass
Molester: Ian Butler-Hall
Scooter Girl: Hanna Snodgrass
Pedophile: J. Wayne Burris

Written and Directed by:
Justin Snodgrass
Tim Young

Edited by:
Justin Snodgrass

Sound Design by:
Tim Young

Score:
Tim Young

Special Thanks
Stell Coffee and Tea Co.
Nell’s Time Shop
Amber Young
Nancy Young
SAC Health Systems
Our Family and friends
DVXuser.com

Editing: Final Cut Pro 5
Sound: Digital Performer
FX: Shake

Shot on DVX100b with the Snod35

[MsManhattan]

Wow, that was pretty dark... Interesting take on the genre. Good job!

[snodart]

Thanks MsManhattan! We were looking to do something a little non-traditional for this.

[Aaron Marshall]

ahh I really liked the acting in this. It's one of the better ones in the fest so far for acting. In my opinion of course.

[snodart]

Thanks Noct, we were lucky enough to be friends with the guy who plays Mr. Nell (David Concannon). He did such a great job.

[Mike McNeese]

I take it you used a 35mm adapter? DOF looked great, and it fit well in this character-driven piece.

[snodart]

I take it you used a 35mm adapter? DOF looked great, and it fit well in this character-driven piece.

Yes, we used my DIY vibrating adapter for this (Snod35). From using it, I discovered a few changes that I need to make (to the adapter) to fine tune it, but overall I was happy with its performance. Thanks for the comment.

EDIT: I am currently working on the Snod35 DIY DVD... complete with a detailed "how to build" visual guide. It will also include chapters related to DOF, circle of confusion, chromatic aberration, basic components of DOF adapters, and on and on. Should be done in 2-3 months.

[mrpunch]

Very cinematic and great acting job. Favorite shot was the dolly shot in the coffee shop! Colors were fantastic as well!

[snodart]

Thanks mrpunch. I did some slight CC, but only a touch. I'm still learning CC with FCP, so I didn't want to overstep my bounds too much. Thanks for the comments.

[RichardVClark]

Very nice job! Your film had such a great look and feel. The lighting we terrific.

[snodart]

Very nice job! Your film had such a great look and feel. The lighting we terrific.

Hey, thanks. We (theloniusjones and I) did a lot of lighting and shot tests at the specific locations prior to the the actual shooting days. It made it so much easier on the day of shooting. We had shot lists and lighting diagrams ready to go. It was also helpful because the actors didn't have to stand around and watch us scratch our heads. Anyway, thanks for the comment!

[Dahopafilms]

Wow. Talk about impressive. And it had a real storyline, too.

The great stuff:

The lighting. The focus. The clarity. Generally, all in all, the cinematography. The visuals pop. Beautiful.
The use of the 35mm adapter could be included in the above comment, but special kudos for designing your own adapter and using it so well. This short should put you in the adapter business in and of itself.
The story. Made sense. Beginning, middle and end. And it raises some real ethical questions with no easy answers. So the film looked great and made me think. Holy smokes.
The acting was great. Your star nailed it. And I loved seeing a believable guy playing the doctor. Nice job at casting.
Costumes really worked for me. Good tone and very believable.
Nice touch with the guy delivering a BIG clock. It didn't have to be a big one. It could have been something smaller. But big looked better and was more interesting on screen and was just a really nice touch.
Nice dolly shot to the guy stirring his coffee. Again, a nice touch that wasn't strictly necessary, but added to the feel and presentation. Well worth the time to set up.

Here's what I wasn't too sure about:

The killing scene behind the blinds. I'm not sure it reflected the talent and the skill demonstrated in the rest of the piece. Perhaps a little cliche, but bear in mind I'm digging deep for ANY negatives here.
The music? Really soft when present. But it still fit in beautifully. Maybe I should just move this comment up into the "what I liked" category.


So that's about it. An awesome short that I was really pleased to experience. Fantastic job.

Thank you.

[Rasquachemedia]

Best cinematography so far. this was also the most filmic i've seen yet. great job!

[snodart]

Wow. Talk about impressive. And it had a real storyline, too.

The great stuff:
The lighting. The focus. The clarity. Generally, all in all, the cinematography. The visuals pop. Beautiful.
The use of the 35mm adapter could be included in the above comment, but special kudos for designing your own adapter and using it so well. This short should put you in the adapter business in and of itself.
The story. Made sense. Beginning, middle and end. And it raises some real ethical questions with no easy answers. So the film looked great and made me think. Holy smokes.
The acting was great. Your star nailed it. And I loved seeing a believable guy playing the doctor. Nice job at casting.
Costumes really worked for me. Good tone and very believable.
Nice touch with the guy delivering a BIG clock. It didn't have to be a big one. It could have been something smaller. But big looked better and was more interesting on screen and was just a really nice touch.
Nice dolly shot to the guy stirring his coffee. Again, a nice touch that wasn't strictly necessary, but added to the feel and presentation. Well worth the time to set up.Here's what I wasn't too sure about:
The killing scene behind the blinds. I'm not sure it reflected the talent and the skill demonstrated in the rest of the piece. Perhaps a little cliche, but bear in mind I'm digging deep for ANY negatives here.
The music? Really soft when present. But it still fit in beautifully. Maybe I should just move this comment up into the "what I liked" category.
So that's about it. An awesome short that I was really pleased to experience. Fantastic job.

Thank you. Thank you for such extensive feedback. I have to say the your post really made me smile... not just because you said such positive things, but because the items that you mentioned are things that we spent extra time planning and testing. Thank you!

[snodart]

Best cinematography so far. this was also the most filmic i've seen yet. great job! Awesome compliment! Thank you!

[Beat Takeshi]

Snod...i dont know man. This made me well up at the end. This was the only real emotional piece in this contest, well I take that back because there were some funny ones. It was the only every other emotional piece here. Wow. That was something else. I still feel it in my gut and my gut still hurts from jimthejibs funny joint. My friends complimented this also. Very emotional, very cinematic, very well scored, very good job.

[DerrickTempleton]

that scene where he's outside the van is so pro. I was totally into it. Shot very well.

[snodart]

Snod...i dont know man. This made me well up at the end. This was the only real emotional piece in this contest, well I take that back because there were some funny ones. It was the only every other emotional piece here. Wow. That was something else. I still feel it in my gut and my gut still hurts from jimthejibs funny joint. My friends complimented this also. Very emotional, very cinematic, very well scored, very good job.

The fact that this made you "well up" is such a great complement to this project and those behind it. Thank you. I had the chills watching David perform that scene. It took two takes only because we lost focus on the first one. I really think he nailed it. We were VERY lucky that he worked on this with us.


that scene where he's outside the van is so pro. I was totally into it. Shot very well. Thank you. That scene took a day or two of planning and getting some test shots. We used the test shots to make a rough cut of the scene and then figured out what changes we needed to make. We ended up drawing a shot diagram for the different camera locations so we could be a little more efficient on the actual day of shooting. The one thing that this short has taught me is the importance of planning.

[Edgen]

Snod,

I must say.. very, very well done. I need to get your snod35 now!

My Thoughts:
well... dahopafilms pretty much hit them all.

I dig the sound FX of him having the 'lapses'. At first I thought the film was going to be another "Run Lola Run" and I was pleasantly pleased when it took a nother direction. I liked hearing the sound re-visit.
Action was dead on. Best i've seen so far.
Cinematography was great. The movements, the feel, the urgency and the feeling you have towards the guy. HOWEVER; I see you guys in the mirror in the doctor's office. I'm sure someone here could AE that out. or... am I wrong? Only flaw that stood out.
Music. Eh.. I have to disagree. I'm not sure i liked the strings. They were nice, but they really didn't make me feel anything like I would have liked to. The guitar piece at the end was fantastic; however.
Only part that I really was confused about was how he got there. I would have like to seen more on the 'napkin' in terms of information on the guy. Perhaps a few things crossed out, or even additional notes portray he found out who this perv was.
At first, I thought that was the main character in the window. I'm sure there's a reason why his shirt was off too. Was this to convey he's... well, I'm sure there's a reason.
The end was good. Maybe a tad too long. I would even fade it out and what would have made it really creepy would be to hear him continue to weep during pitch black. Mess with those ears.
only beef. Dude, Credits?

Other than that. Fantastic work and sensational short.

cheers.
/j

[Alex DePew]

Excellent work. A truly great piece. I really liked the color, the lighting, the composition of the shots, the acting. All were phenomenal.

I really liked pacing of the story and how it was developing but the ending didn't work for me. I only say this because I really respect the work you put into it and think it is great. If I didn'like the film I wouldn't take the time to explain.

SPOILERS:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::

I did see where the ending came from in terms of emotional build up but not through charcter development. I got the impression that he was a relatively normal, good guy, who has a tortued side. I though murder, even the murder of a pedophile seemed to be too extreme for his personality. In the scene where he saves the girl from the pedophile I didn't get the impression he would have done anything to him given the oportunity nor that he even wanted to but was simply satisfied with saving the girl. So the next scene seemed out of place. Perhaps it's just me though. I think the ending could work but there needed to be something in the character to lead us to it. Even a different reaction when he looks over at the car and sees him drive off. Perhaps his run over to the car could be a little more passionate, not so much that it ruins the tense feel of the scene though. I guess the main reason I think the ending seemed off is because in the car scene, he knows what is going to happen and when he sees it actually happen his reaction is very subdued.

I hope you don't take my comments badly. I really liked the film and thought it was an exeplary piece of filmmaking. I can't wait to see what you come up with next.

By the way, your baseball bat to the face on your site is brilliant. I didn't know AE could be used so effectively.

Alex

[theloniusjones]

HOWEVER; I see you guys in the mirror in the doctor's office.

Yeah, the room that we shot that scene is was kind of on the small side, and it was a tight squeeze getting everything and everyone in. I actually didn't notice the reflection in the mirror until you pointed it out. Snod edited the short though, and has seen it more than I have, so he probably noticed it. I remember we briefly considered ditching the mirror before we started shooting, but we only had 2 hours in the office to shoot the scene before they kicked us out and set the alarm. We were shooting after hours in a small medical clinic that my mom runs. This was the biggest office in the place.


Only part that I really was confused about was how he got there. I would have like to seen more on the 'napkin' in terms of information on the guy. Perhaps a few things crossed out, or even additional notes portray he found out who this perv was.

This is great critique. It's one of the plot points that we questioned. I think it's one of the biggest challenges of telling a story through film, especially in short format - it's really tough to decide where the audience will need more and where they should get less. I think you're right, we should have given a bit more there.


I would even fade it out and what would have made it really creepy would be to hear him continue to weep during pitch black. Mess with those ears.

Great suggestion. When I was doing the sound for that part I got really fixated on a part of the audio where his weeping gets distorted, and forced myself to fade to cut it out, but we thought it worked for the tone of the scene. Fading the picture first then splicing some weeping from another cut would have been a great solution, though. I think we may have considered fading out from the weeping scene sooner now that I think about it, but we were so attached to that dolly shot because it took us so long to set it up and get the follow focus right for it that we couldn't let it go. I think that's another one of the tough decisions you have to learn how to make as a filmmaker, where you have to be willing to cut things out that you spent a lot of time and energy on in order to serve the story and convey the emotional tone of the scene. I think I remember reading an interview with Steven Spielberg where he was talking about how hard it was for him to cut out footage of the robotic shark in Jaws (his editor wanted to show less and he wanted to show more), because they spent so much time building it and getting it to work right. And part of the greatness of the movie is how subtle and implicit the menace of the shark is. Plus the cut footage looked pretty bad when you see the behind the scenes stuff. I just thought of something - you know the way the shark sort of skims the surface with his dorsal fin above water before attacking, when you hear the famous musical cue? Great whites don't really do that, do they? This is what happens when you get your education from films. But anyway I've heard some people say that this is one benefit of having someone else edit your film, or taking some time off between shooting and editing, so you can forget how much time you spent on that certain shot and how happy you were to finally pull it off, and decide more objectively what works and what doesn't.

Anyway, it's nice to get some constructive, objective feedback. Snod and I thank you.

[snodart]

I wasn't 100% sure what the rules were about posting too much info before the voting ballot was out, but it's out now so I wanted to make some more detailed comments to the feedback.


Wow. Talk about impressive. And it had a real storyline, too.

The great stuff:

The lighting. The focus. The clarity. Generally, all in all, the cinematography. The visuals pop. Beautiful.
The use of the 35mm adapter could be included in the above comment, but special kudos for designing your own adapter and using it so well. This short should put you in the adapter business in and of itself.
The story. Made sense. Beginning, middle and end. And it raises some real ethical questions with no easy answers. So the film looked great and made me think. Holy smokes.
The acting was great. Your star nailed it. And I loved seeing a believable guy playing the doctor. Nice job at casting.
Costumes really worked for me. Good tone and very believable.
Nice touch with the guy delivering a BIG clock. It didn't have to be a big one. It could have been something smaller. But big looked better and was more interesting on screen and was just a really nice touch.
Nice dolly shot to the guy stirring his coffee. Again, a nice touch that wasn't strictly necessary, but added to the feel and presentation. Well worth the time to set up.Here's what I wasn't too sure about:

The killing scene behind the blinds. I'm not sure it reflected the talent and the skill demonstrated in the rest of the piece. Perhaps a little cliche, but bear in mind I'm digging deep for ANY negatives here.
The music? Really soft when present. But it still fit in beautifully. Maybe I should just move this comment up into the "what I liked" category.So that's about it. An awesome short that I was really pleased to experience. Fantastic job.

Thank you.


#1 and #2:
theloniusjones (my brother-in-law) and I have been putting ourselves through a sort of at-home film-school. Part of that has involved studying movies, commentaries, and behind the scenes goods. That was a huge help in at least giving us a place to start with some of the lighting and shots in Cache.

As for the adapter. I about killed myself trying to get that thing built in time to use it for Hero-Fest. Big thanks to Edwierdo for his great thread which gave me a huge starting point (and all the great folks that have posted their findings). I just kept refining and refining (and not sleeping) until deciding to go with a vibrating GG. I am very happy with it, but from shooting with it have realized a few small changes that I need to make in the newer version. And if this sounds like a plug for my Snod35 DVD, it is! I am beyond excited about it.

SPOILERS:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

#3: The story. We weren't able to start shooting until mid-May, so that gave us a good deal of time to work through the story. We wanted to go with something non-traditional as far as the super hero genre goes. I wanted to explore the idea of throwing some reality into the super hero notion. When a police officer is forced to shoot somebody, I doubt the officer goes on about their life unaffected. I would imagine that such an event would stay with most people forever. I wanted the story to put the viewer in the shoes of that person as much as possible.

#4 The acting. David Concannon was simply great. His dedication to the project was amazing. He essentially told me that he was available from the time he got off work until the next morning when he had to be back. I can't say enough about how great he was to work with.

#5 Costumes. We kept Mr. Nell's clothes simple, dry, and bland. Of course the hooded sweatshirt helps to show his self-proclaimed super-hero mindset. The kid's costume we were able to grab pretty easily from a costume store. The picture of Mr. Nell as a child is actually a picture we took of my daughter in the costume. We photoshoped David's head from one of his childhood photos onto it.

#6 and #7. I'm glad you noticed this. I struggled with figuring out how we were going to get a grandfather clock with no budget. This is our first true production and we didn't want to take any short cuts unless we absolutely had to. My wife found the big clock at Wal-Mart for $60. It is a piece of junk, but I think it passed itself off pretty well.

theloniusjones came up with the dolly shot during our test shooting at the coffee shop. Big thanks to Stell Coffee and Tea Co! There was going to be another 50 second scene that took place at the coffee shop that ended up being axed. We probably spent around 14 hours total there doing lighting and shot tests. The scene ended up being too complicated for the time that we had. With more experience we might have been able to work through it, but we had to move on because the clock was ticking. We knew exactly what we needed though when it came time to shoot the short scene that we did used from there.


As for the scene behind the blinds. You bring up a good point with this comment. I see how this shot does rest one the line between acceptable and cliche. The idea with the story was to pull the viewer into the character up until the bat hit scene. At that point, my goal was to keep the viewer as a spectator of the event and not inside with the action. I can only imagine how great Dave would have been if we did get inside with the action.

For the score, we just ran out of time. theloniusjones did the guitar work at the very end. He was going to score the whole movie, but time just crept up on us. I had to do what I could for the other parts a few hours before uploading. If Cache makes it onto the DVD or to the Hero-Fest screening, the completed score will be with it. In fact he is working on it right now. He is a great musician and I know it will make a difference.



Snod,

I must say.. very, very well done. I need to get your snod35 now!

My Thoughts:
well... dahopafilms pretty much hit them all.

I dig the sound FX of him having the 'lapses'. At first I thought the film was going to be another "Run Lola Run" and I was pleasantly pleased when it took a nother direction. I liked hearing the sound re-visit.
Action was dead on. Best i've seen so far.
Cinematography was great. The movements, the feel, the urgency and the feeling you have towards the guy. HOWEVER; I see you guys in the mirror in the doctor's office. I'm sure someone here could AE that out. or... am I wrong? Only flaw that stood out.
Music. Eh.. I have to disagree. I'm not sure i liked the strings. They were nice, but they really didn't make me feel anything like I would have liked to. The guitar piece at the end was fantastic; however.
Only part that I really was confused about was how he got there. I would have like to seen more on the 'napkin' in terms of information on the guy. Perhaps a few things crossed out, or even additional notes portray he found out who this perv was.
At first, I thought that was the main character in the window. I'm sure there's a reason why his shirt was off too. Was this to convey he's... well, I'm sure there's a reason.
The end was good. Maybe a tad too long. I would even fade it out and what would have made it really creepy would be to hear him continue to weep during pitch black. Mess with those ears.
only beef. Dude, Credits?

Other than that. Fantastic work and sensational short.

cheers.
/j


The mirror. LOL. I looked at that 100 times I think. In the end, it turned out to be the beveled edges on the mirror catching some light (at least that's what I told myself). Probably would have been wise to AE it out either way. Now everybody will see it! lol
:)
I agree with you about the napkin. I think it might have helped.

We cut this down from about 8 minutes to 05:59 and 23 frames... so the audio after the fade and the credits were chopped. Full version will have both.

The shirt off was to help show the unexpectedness of the attack. We tried with the shirt on as well, but off just seemed to work better.

Thank you both for the extensive feedback. This is a tremendous learning tool.

EDIT: lol, looks like theloniusjones and I were posting at the same time.

[Edgen]

You are welcome fellas. Just trying to help out.

ya, It was such a short shot and otherwise flawless with the mirror. Sorry.. :) I guess everyone will be looking for that now eh?

yes.. its hard to let go of shots. The dolly was superb and ya, something like that with the rack focus is just hard to let go. Regardless, it was effective.

/j

[snodart]

Excellent work. A truly great piece. I really liked the color, the lighting, the composition of the shots, the acting. All were phenomenal.

I really liked pacing of the story and how it was developing but the ending didn't work for me. I only say this because I really respect the work you put into it and think it is great. If I didn'like the film I wouldn't take the time to explain.

I did see where the ending came from in terms of emotional build up but not through charcter development. I got the impression that he was a relatively normal, good guy, who has a tortued side. I though murder, even the murder of a pedophile seemed to be too extreme for his personality. In the scene where he saves the girl from the pedophile I didn't get the impression he would have done anything to him given the oportunity nor that he even wanted to but was simply satisfied with saving the girl. So the next scene seemed out of place. Perhaps it's just me though. I think the ending could work but there needed to be something in the character to lead us to it. Even a different reaction when he looks over at the car and sees him drive off. Perhaps his run over to the car could be a little more passionate, not so much that it ruins the tense feel of the scene though. I guess the main reason I think the ending seemed off is because in the car scene, he knows what is going to happen and when he sees it actually happen his reaction is very subdued.

I hope you don't take my comments badly. I really liked the film and thought it was an exeplary piece of filmmaking. I can't wait to see what you come up with next.

By the way, your baseball bat to the face on your site is brilliant. I didn't know AE could be used so effectively.

Alex

I'm here to learn so any and all comments are welcome. I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts and ideas.

SPOILERS:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

With the story, the idea was to put the viewer on the side of Mr. Nell while at the same time allowing for the shock of the attack to exist. By the way, I'm not attempting to justify what we did, but just explaining our goal with the story. I (I say "I" because theloniusjones may have a other points to make) didn't want people to walk away from this with a feeling of victory, but with a pit in their stomach. I wanted the viewer to be okay with Mr. Nell seeking out the pedophile and let them assume that it would play out as a typical hollywood style battle. The thing Disney is great for.

Example:
The hero and villain are fighting the end battle... the villain slips and is hanging by fingertips from the ledge... the hero, being good, tries to pull the villain up... the villain tries to take advantage of this by attacking the Hero, but causes himself to fall.

So with this example good wins but not by killing. The villain is the cause of his own death. Most all Disney movies work this way as well as many blockbuster type movies. I think this is great and even necessary (homage to Joseph Campbell).
The goal with Cache was to lead the viewer in this direction, but to force them to think about it in terms of reality. Though it would be ideal, most actual events don't play out with an all is well feeling at the end. This is the idea we wanted to explore with Cache. With Mr. Nell's unexpectedly brutal attack on the pedophile, I wanted the viewer to say something like: "I wanted him to get that guy, but not like that, damn". So in a way, I wanted to effect the viewer in such a way that they might be forced to take a closer look at how they view such events (in reality vs. hollywood). My wife is a forensic pediatrician and deals with child abuse cases. I told her once that I would have no problem beating the life out of a child abuser. Later though, when I really thought deeply about what I had said and tried to imagine what it would be like to do such a thing.... I ended up with a pit in my stomach.

[DarrenRyan]

Expertly shot and crafted all around. I liked your take on the theme. Acting very strong. Everything about this served the story. Nice work!

[Beat Takeshi]

Well it definitly left a pit in my stomach. It felt real and I could feel his torment. The scene where the man was going into the bedroom to I rape the kid (that was my take on it) made me cringe. The shot of him going in over and over really drove the point home too. I guess thats the hero as a kid and thats why hes so tormented. The way i saw it also was that if he had that power to see the immediate future his whole life then he knew when he was going to get raped everytime. That part totally gave me the biggest lump in my throat.
I have a short that kind of deals with the same issues I plan on shooting at the end of the year. No, I was never molested but I have kids and thats the one thing that scares me being a father and yeah, that baseball bat scene was appropriate. I think I would have let him live a little longer so I could burn his eyes out with a hot fork.
I should consult with your wife before I shoot this.

[Alex DePew]

First off, sorry I forgot to put the spoilers line in my original post. I just added it in.

COMMENTS BELOW CONTAIN SPOILERS::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


I'm here to learn so any and all comments are welcome. I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts and ideas.

SPOILERS:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

With the story, the idea was to put the viewer on the side of Mr. Nell while at the same time allowing for the shock of the attack to exist. By the way, I'm not attempting to justify what we did, but just explaining our goal with the story. I (I say "I" because theloniusjones may have a other points to make) didn't want people to walk away from this with a feeling of victory, but with a pit in their stomach. I wanted the viewer to be okay with Mr. Nell seeking out the pedophile and let them assume that it would play out as a typical hollywood style battle. The thing Disney is great for.

I was definitely on his side. He was well developed and the viewer is drawn to him through his pain and his isolation. His character is well concieved and beautifully acted. And you definitely suceeded in getting that unnerving feeling at the end. What I didn't realize is that this film's run time was cut down significantly. I think there could be some more build up in the part where he decides to take an action. He has been mostly passive and brooding, so I found the action unclearly motivated. If you have extra footage I think it could be worked out. I think the ending works it just felt slightly rushed considering the pacing up to that point. We don't see his decision to do it. He is a very internal person and I saw him reacting to his environment and trying to cope with his power/delusions but not as an active, take action type. Again, I am not trying to tear down the film. I thought it was excellent and that the way you tackled the genre was original, well thought out and beautifully executed.



With Mr. Nell's unexpectedly brutal attack on the pedophile, I wanted the viewer to say something like: "I wanted him to get that guy, but not like that, damn". So in a way, I wanted to effect the viewer in such a way that they might be forced to take a closer look at how they view such events (in reality vs. hollywood).

I see what you are trying to say. And I think this is a strong message for the movie. I think then there needed to be a longer more nefarious scene to build the villain more and feel that there was serious peril. There was an uneasy feeling seeing her get in the car and leave the bike/scooter behind, but I think this scene could have been lengthened. When it got to the point of him hitting the Villain with the bat I was taken aback because I also felt he was making a huge judgement based on limited information. Had he had a vision that included a shot of the girl in the car uncomfortable and scared and/or images of the pedophile shot to make the viewer disgusted and angry it would have sold it in my mind. And when it cut to him after the vision, we could see him being more active, running towards the car to stop this disturbing scene from becoming reality. I think this piece works and would love to see the full version. I may be wasting my breath:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) and everything I need is in the longer version.


My wife is a forensic pediatrician and deals with child abuse cases. I told her once that I would have no problem beating the life out of a child abuser. Later though, when I really thought deeply about what I had said and tried to imagine what it would be like to do such a thing.... I ended up with a pit in my stomach.

Years ago, when I was 18 or 19 or so, I volunteered at the NY Hospital Burn Center. The majority of the patients were little children and the elderly. I was there to try and lift the childrens spirits and to play with them. There was once girl I will never forget. She had third degree burns over her eyes. The mother, who only sporadically showed up at the hospital, said she crawled into the radiator. The doctor called child services and I asked him about her. The doctor told me there would be no way a child could be that close to a radiator for that long and not have any burns on her arms or hands. I wanted to do something but I felt so terribly impotent. I knew I couldn't do anything. I let the system take care of the mother and the child. Had this happened now, at 28, I wouldn't have handled it much differently, I still wouldn't have done anything to the mother. I would however most likely would try to follow the case and see how the child is doing. That is the single most heartbreaking thing I have seen in my life. I had to hold the child down for the doctors to put eyedrops in her little eyes to try and see if they could preserve her eyesight. The funny thing was she was the most happy baby even though she couldn't see. She was a little angel and I hope she is now living a blessed life.

So sorry to take this discussion on such a disturbing path. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I think that has been waiting to get out for a while now.

Back to the pit in the stomach of thinking about actually going through with the violence against the attacker. I agree that though many have an idealized notion of what violence is. They think that killing someone, if justified, would not affect their pschye. I can't speak with authority, I am not a psychologist or well read on this subject, but I believe no matter the circumstances it is a traumatic event that will leave the person with an emotional scar. I think it depends on the person how deep that scar would go.

EDIT AFTER READING ARAM'S POST: (his came while I was typing)

I didn't see the scene in bedroom with the kid in the cape in the way Aram did upon first viewing, but his reading of it makes a lot of sense. And I think this might be some of the justification that I was looking for. Maybe it was just me who missed the allusion to the childhood incident(s).

[wesley]

excellent camera work and lighting. and one of the more "plausible" hero stories :D. kinda reminded me of unbreakable.

and scene outside with the kiddienapper is gold.

one of my favs

[Ian Slessor]

snodart,

Well done.

CACHE was a very powerful piece.

I liked how he worked with timepieces and somehow was able to see ahead in time.

Cinematography, lighting, sound, acting all top notch.

I got the idea that the character had been abused as a child and, for me, what I thought was going to be discovered, almost to the end, was that the man in the car was actually the little girl's father who wasn't allowed to talk to his daughter and that the protagonist had killed an innocent man.

But I was wrong.

Well done. You're in my top 3.

sincerely,



ian

[theloniusjones]

I got the idea that the character had been abused as a child and, for me, what I thought was going to be discovered, almost to the end, was that the man in the car was actually the little girl's father who wasn't allowed to talk to his daughter and that the protagonist had killed an innocent man.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong. We never discussed this specifically, but we definitely wanted the audience to question whether the pedophile was truly guilty. Mr. Nell acts on limited evidence and makes a drastic decision that in our minds is motivated by his tortured childhood. We envisioned him questioning his vision, questioning his "powers", and questioning taking the vigilante approach that superheros often take. We wanted to show less of the pedophile's sins because, like Snod says in his post, we didn't want to give the audience justification for his acts, to make it more unsettling.

I like your interpretation and I think it fits in with what we were trying to do. Thanks for the feedback!

[Blaine]

Very powerful piece, Justin. You and Tim have created a real piece of art. I love the story because of its depth. You spent a good deal of time setting up Mr. Nell's psychosis. Juxtapose that with an alternate reality and you are left questioning what is real. Just as was Mr. Nell. For me, this being a super hero exhibition and all, I took Mr. Nell's apparent psychosis as being true super human powers. This story really reminded me of the issues raised in Bill Paxton's movie, Frailty. What's real and what isn't.

The acting was excellent. I believed every one of your actors was real. Tight story with everything having a purpose. Considering the length of your movie, I personally think the whole thing with the napkin was perfect. We saw the license plate number and the address. I really didn't need to know how he got the address, just that he got it. In a full length feature, perhaps spend some time on it, but for a 5-6 minute short, you set it up perfectly.

The look you created was again, spot on. I loved how you handled your lighting. It just goes to show what effective pre-production can accomplish.

The music was very minimalistic but entirely appropriate for you movie. I do believe that you could have benefited by raising the levels just a bit though. I really liked the soft pretty piece of music set against the baseball bat beating scene at the end. That was a master stroke of storytelling.

Watching this, I'd say you have all the chops to do a feature length film. Find the right piece of material, go out and make it!!!

[david jerome]

I can't believe that's the same camera I have. It was beautiful. What a very intense story. I would love to see a full feature with this character.

[Anthem78]

Great job. One of my favorites. Top three definetly. I loved the lighting and camera work.

[snodart]

Very powerful piece, Justin. You and Tim have created a real piece of art. I love the story because of its depth. You spent a good deal of time setting up Mr. Nell's psychosis. Juxtapose that with an alternate reality and you are left questioning what is real. Just as was Mr. Nell. For me, this being a super hero exhibition and all, I took Mr. Nell's apparent psychosis as being true super human powers. This story really reminded me of the issues raised in Bill Paxton's movie, Frailty. What's real and what isn't.

We spent of good deal of time working through Mr. Nell's character. This was no easy task and we went through a number of ideas and options... so thank you. The super human powers... We tried to find a ballance between making the powers seem real and making them seem like a product of Mr. Nell's mental state. Our intentions were to make it unclear and let the viewer decide. In the same way we tried to make Mr. Nell seem a bit off while still allowing the viewer to become attached to him. I hadn't though of it until you said it, but there is a commonality between this story and Frailty.


The acting was excellent. I believed every one of your actors was real.

Thank you! I have to agree, the actors were great! David (Mr. Nell) was huge for Cache. Not only was his acting great, but he aslo recruited his friend Herman to play the part of the doctor (also a stand up job). The rest of the cast was made up of family and friends; and I think they did a great job as well. The Pedophile was played by one of Tim's friends, J. Wayne. It was his first experience with acting (as far as I know). He did a great job as well and pulled off a nice fall with the bat hit. We did not hold auditions for the parts, so I feel very lucky that we ended up with the people that we did.


Tight story with everything having a purpose. Considering the length of your movie, I personally think the whole thing with the napkin was perfect. We saw the license plate number and the address. I really didn't need to know how he got the address, just that he got it. In a full length feature, perhaps spend some time on it, but for a 5-6 minute short, you set it up perfectly
That was pretty much our reasoning behind it. We talked about ways to show him getting the address, but like you said, it probably wasn't necessary and with 5-6 minutes there just wasn't time anyway.


The look you created was again, spot on. I loved how you handled your lighting. It just goes to show what effective pre-production can accomplish.
Thank you. While I was working through ideas for the look, I spent some time looking at a couple of movies for ideas. I probably spent most of my time with The Machinist and Memento. I wasn't trying to match any of them though, but just use them as a reference to get some ideas rolling. We spent a ton of time going to the actualy locations and testing different lighting set ups prior to the actual shooting days. So the comment on the lighting means a lot to us. Pre-production... yes. I learned so much in making this short, but the single most important thig that will stick with me is the importance of pre-production. I now see pre-production as being comparable to the months that a fighter spends training before a fight. When everything has been addressed before hand, things flow so much better while shooting. Things never went perfectly or exactly as planned, but it still made a HUGE difference when it came time to shoot and later edit.


The music was very minimalistic but entirely appropriate for you movie. I do believe that you could have benefited by raising the levels just a bit though. I really liked the soft pretty piece of music set against the baseball bat beating scene at the end. That was a master stroke of storytelling.
I agree about the levels 100%.


Watching this, I'd say you have all the chops to do a feature length film. Find the right piece of material, go out and make it!!!
Thanks. Tim (theloniusjones) and I have talked about it and both feel that we need some more shorts under our belt before we are ready to do a feature. This is really our first true production. Most of what we have done up to this point has been tests and a couple of shorts (the kind that are made over a weekend).
http://snodart.com/clips.php
Prior to Hero-Fest we had both agreed that we needed some form of motivation to force us to do something with 110% of our effort. Not too long after, I came across Hero-Fest announcement, so we got started with ideas right away. It was perfect timing for us. We are very thankful that Jarred and DVXuser take the time to put these fests on. It has helped us to take some big steps forward in our skill level and knowledge.

Thanks for all the comments Blaine.



I can't believe that's the same camera I have.

I remember saying the same thing when I saw SIMILO for the first time. I would give you a link to SIMILO in case you haven't seen it, but I don't think it is up anymore. I remember telling Tim that if they could make it look that good, then so could we. Not sure we quite did it, but it gave us something to shoot for.


It was beautiful. What a very intense story. I would love to see a full feature with this character.

I would love to work on a feature based on this story someday. There would be so many different ways to play out the story in a longer or full length version... it would be a blast to work out. I don't think we are quite ready yet though. We still have much to learn for now.

Thanks for the comments.

[MiataFilmSomething]

I havnen't read all the comments on this film yet, so I don't know if I'm begin redundant, but I really liked and appriciated the acting in this one. The main character was absolutley great. Very convincing and moving performance.
Good job!

[Beat Takeshi]

Yeah, Im guessing that this will be the winner of the fest.

[Brandon Rice]

I watched this film... great job overall... didn't care too much for the story... too depressing/weird for me... but it was well done and did what it was trying to do... the acting was fabulous and the cinematography was great.

[JwrFord]

It's been said countless times but I really enjoyed this film. Everything was at a pro quality. While watching the scene in the clock shop I said allowed (at a very innappropiate time and place) "Thats fucking good lighting" sans the poo poo. That statement stayed true throughout the piece. I too loved how minimalistic the music was. It kept with the ideas intended theme (it seems) and inconjunction with the great story telling kept me from looking at the clock. Non established environments also really kept me on my toes. Great job.

[snodart]

Thanks all for the new comments.



I watched this film... great job overall... didn't care too much for the story... too depressing/weird for me... but it was well done and did what it was trying to do... the acting was fabulous and the cinematography was great.


Thanks briceman. I had a feeling that not everybody would care for the story as it is not a very uplifting one. I Appreciate your honesty. We just didn't want go with a typical hero story. Our hope was to make something that was a little more challenging to watch.



Non established environments also really kept me on my toes. Great job.


I'm glad you mentioned this. I was concerned about not having them. We shot some establishing shots for several of the scenes and planned on using them. They just didn't work though. It broke the flow too much I think. Also, with only 6 minutes, there wasn't any room for it. The original "long" version was around 9 minutes. While I chopped and hacked away to fit it into 6, I felt like I was destroying all of our work. The funny thing is that we like the 6 minute version better now. I think it has to do with not wanting to let go of certain things because of the work that was put into it (as theloniusjones mentioned). Anyway, the new longer version is only around 7 minutes.

Thanks again for the comments.

[theloniusjones]

While watching the scene in the clock shop I said allowed (at a very innappropiate time and place) "Thats poo pooing good lighting" sans the poo poo.

Thanks for the lighting comment. We used Lowel Omni lights. We have two, one with a detachable softbox (I think it's made by Westcott), and one with barn doors. We used the softbox for the clock shop scene that you're referring to, with a bounce (either a white foamcore or a white collapsable reflector disc also made by Westcott). We used the Omni with barn doors as a hard light source for scenes like the psychiatrist's office, also with a bounce. We also like to use black foamcore as flags/cookies to shape the light, especially for scenes with more noir-type hard lighting like the psychiatrist's office. We also have a Lowel Prolight that we like to use for highlights, but the bulb died so we didn't end up using it much on this short. The next lights we'd like to get are a fresnel and some flourescents (the Omnis tend to really heat up the room!). Anyway thanks for the comments. Feel free to ask any questions. It's nice to share how we do things and learn from how everyone else does it.

[JwrFord]

I've never used blackfoam core only black wrap etc. I'll have to pick some up and play around with it.

As for the established environments its a character driven project and establishing the environments would have only given us time to "take a look around and breath". The "story" of the locations weren't important (obviously) what mattered was what the MC was doing/saying and why. IMHO this aspect was excellently executed many character projects SHOULDN'T give you time to "breath" especially in 6 mins. You guys just hit the nail on the head.
I am hoping you guys try your hand in some festivals.

[Palace Films]

Excellent work! Looked great! Really surprised me with this one since the name wasn't that attractive to me. You will definately win something in this contest.

[TimurCivan]

That was superb. top 2 in my book.

[concannon]

Hey...I am finally on this thing....

[snodart]

Hey...I am finally on this thing....

Nice! Concannon (AKA David Concannon) played the roll of Mr. Nell in CACHE.

[Blaine]

Did you shoot the Clock Repair shop there in Claremont? I wanted to ask that earlier because it looked like Harvard (?) Street in the background (or should it be in the bg :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) )

[Matt Sconce]

Nice! Concannon (AKA David Concannon) played the roll of Mr. Nell in CACHE.

He was amazing!

[Blaine]

He was amazing!
I second that! :thumbsup:

[concannon]

Many props to Justin and Tim for this one. It was an amazing expierence to work on this for a number of reasons. I have known them for a few years and to watch first hand the improvements in their work is very exciting. Justin you have found your calling. I have read about Justin's interest in Film-making and it pretty much falls in line with mine. You have this wounderful medium that you can express the many diversified creative aspects of your work all in piece. It's wonderful.

I am truly grateful to have had the opportunity to get to know these guys. As far as richly creative types go they have one of the strongest work ethics around. The amount of planning and testing that went on with this short is a true testament to Justin and Tim's desire to learn as well as produce the best piece possible.

From an acting standpoint the working relationship was great. Justin and Tim had very clear ideas about the character but at the same time did not micro manage the actors which is wonderful and rare. No matter how late we were shooting they always took the time allow experimentation and gave a lot of creative leeway in that area. That openness is a priceless commodity.

[concannon]

I second that! :thumbsup:
Thank you for the compliment!

[snodart]

Did you shoot the Clock Repair shop there in Claremont? I wanted to ask that earlier because it looked like Harvard (?) Street in the background (or should it be in the bg :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) )

The clock repair shop was in Loma Linda, CA (Inland Empire). The guy that ran the place was great and all for helping us. This was our first "real" location so I was a nervous wreck inside while we were there. I thought for sure we would tip a grandfather clock. It went great though. We got in and out as fast as we could.

I feel pretty bad though. I used the name Mr. Nell because the clock shop was "Nell's Time Shop" and I though we might use the sign outside at some point. I told the shop owner that I would be sure to bring him a copy of the movie when it was done. Anyway, he is going to watch Cache now and think that we based the story on him or something. I'm pretty sure he will be okay with it, just wish I would have changed the name.
:grin:

Dave, thanks for the very kind words. You are a true pro and it means a great deal.

[Blaine]

The clock repair shop was in Loma Linda, CA (Inland Empire).
Loma Linda's just a few miles east of me.

I'm in Alta Loma, which is really Rancho Cucamonga.

[snodart]

Wow. Tim and I are in the Redlands area. Small world. Do you by any chance know Rich (forgot last name)? FX master.

[Blaine]

Do you by any chance know Rich (forgot last name)? FX master.
I'm afraid I don't.

[jpbankesmercer]

Best for me so far. Loved your main Actor + everything else already been said. I'm so pleased you had such a great story, back that up with a fantastic look and feel and you've got a tight superbly crafted short. I'm sure this will help your careers no-end. Well done on all the hard work on your prep and execution. Reminded me of a Steven King story.

J.p

[Larry Rutledge]

I haven't read most of the comments, so I may repeat things that have already been covered.


When I watch the films for these contests I usually watch once without my "technical hat" on, just enjoy the film as a film. Then I watch again with an eye for the scoring categories and complete the ballot. Finally I go through them again and watch a couple times to formulate my comments to post in the thread.

I have to admit when I watched the first time I missed part of the story or something, because while I enjoyed the look/feel of the film I wasn't sure exactly what happened. I don't know why, because on subsequent viewings the pieces are all there and very clear. I found that this was a great film. It is actually one of my top 5 favorite films from this group.

I think the main thing that messed it up for me was when he scares off the guy trying to nab the girl and he is standing the street reading the license plate numbers to himself and then turns to the girl. The first few times I couldn't hear what he saying at first and then when I could make it out it was just numbers (...4...8) and I thought he was counting before he looked over to see if it was real or another dilusion. On the third time watching I backed it up a couple times and finally caught that he was reading the license plate and then the later scene at the guys house made more sense. The first few times I couldn't figure out why he went there and attacked that guy.

I really liked the idea of him being a regular guy that has an ability and then him using that in his day to day life to help people. It was the thing I liked most about UNBREAKABLE as well...so good job on story.

The cinematography is fantastic, both in framing the shots and the overall color/look of the piece. I was really impressed with how sharp and clear the image was even in the low light settings.

The sounds overall were very good, but I was glad you didn't add sound effects when he attacks the guy at the end. The first hit its there, but in subsequent hits it was silent and I was glad...that could be hard to watch with the sound.

The score was subtle and played well with the story...I don't think a sweeping, epic score would have set well with this piece.

Good job, really enjoyed this and looking forward to seeing more projects from you in the future.

Peace,
Larry

[Shaun Patrick]

Snodart,

This is definitely, IMO, the most accomplished film in the contest. It is expertly crafted and you guys show a real command of the camera--especially in the perfectly executed dolly moves. Nothing seems out of place.

Do you mind sharing your scene settings? I'm particularly interested in detail level settings in camera and in post.

Best,

Shaun

[spidey]

wow this movie was pretty neat man.
well thought out shots and and editing was good.
simple story and good.

enjoyed it, something dark.

good job!

[Matthew B. Moore]

The best I have see so far.
Great shots, lighting, editing, and acting. I'll go a farther with the shots; damn fine camera work and lighting. You cats are making that DVX earn it's keep.

You leave the viewer wanting more. Nice touch.

[snodart]

Thanks everyone for the new replies.


When I watch the films for these contests I usually watch once without my "technical hat" on, just enjoy the film as a film. Then I watch again with an eye for the scoring categories and complete the ballot. Finally I go through them again and watch a couple times to formulate my comments to post in the thread.
I try and do pretty much the same. Thanks for doing it for ours.


I have to admit when I watched the first time I missed part of the story or something, because while I enjoyed the look/feel of the film I wasn't sure exactly what happened. I don't know why, because on subsequent viewings the pieces are all there and very clear. I found that this was a great film. It is actually one of my top 5 favorite films from this group.

I think the main thing that messed it up for me was when he scares off the guy trying to nab the girl and he is standing the street reading the license plate numbers to himself and then turns to the girl. The first few times I couldn't hear what he saying at first and then when I could make it out it was just numbers (...4...8) and I thought he was counting before he looked over to see if it was real or another dilusion. On the third time watching I backed it up a couple times and finally caught that he was reading the license plate and then the later scene at the guys house made more sense. The first few times I couldn't figure out why he went there and attacked that guy.

We tried our best to make sure that the story could be followed and at the same time we tried not to serve it to people on a platter. I appreciate your comment. After spending so much time thinking about a single 6 minute story (as I'm sure many know), there comes a point where it is hard to step away and get a new fresh look at the idea. I'm honestly not sure what we could have done differently to make it more clear without making it too easy to read, but there is always a way. Thanks for the help Larry.



Snodart,

This is definitely, IMO, the most accomplished film in the contest. It is expertly crafted and you guys show a real command of the camera--especially in the perfectly executed dolly moves. Nothing seems out of place.

Do you mind sharing your scene settings? I'm particularly interested in detail level settings in camera and in post.

Best,

Shaun


Thanks, I have a great deal of respect for your entry, so I'm very glad you liked it.

As for the settings (100B)
Detail Level: +3
V Detail Level: +4
Detail Coring: 0
Chroma Level: 0
Chroma Phase: 0
Color Temp: 0
Master Ped: -4
A. Iris Level: -3
Gamma: Cinelike D
Knee: Auto
Matrix: Cinelike
Skin Tone DTL: off
V Detail Freq: Thin
and of course, 24P (adv)

I bought the DVX not to long ago. I had time to watch Barry Green's DVD and read through the book, but I still need to truly study it. I got the settings from TimurCivan's post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=51963. I changed them a touch (guess work).

I did a very slight amount of CC in post. I probably would have left it alone if it wasn't for QuickTime making it look so bright. I used the 3 way CC in FCP. For the shots such as the coffee shop and the clock shop, I brought down the blacks a touch and the mids even less. In the outdoor shots I brought in tiny bit more green and nudged the black and mids down as well. I didn't have much experience with CC, so I was watching a how-to DVD for color correction in FCP while I was doing it.
:)

Thanks again for all the comments.

Oh, I was hoping to hear some comments about the bat hit. Just wondering what everyone's first impression was... also could use some technical nit picking. It was a pretty complicated shot and was a big chunk of work for us. We composited Mr. Nell and the pedophile with Shake. Dave (Mr. Nell) actually hit a 2 X 6 piece of wood that I was holding. J. Wayne (pedophile) was standing alone with no bat swinging when he made the great fall. Anyway, I would love to hear some comments about it if anybody is up for it.

[TimurCivan]

I think I would have let him live a little longer so I could burn his eyes out with a hot fork.



Damn dude.

this is the side of aram i dont ever want ot see. Espeacially when he gets his Bionic Joints.... the nhe will be like the Terminator and end us all.

But the baseball bat scene ewas the weakest point. perhaps something simple like the shadows, on the curtain could have been more complex and interesting. like if the Molester was trying to get up, and kept getting beat back to the ground. somethign to give the flat image some depth.

[snodart]

But the baseball bat scene ewas the weakest point. perhaps something simple like the shadows, on the curtain could have been more complex and interesting. like if the Molester was trying to get up, and kept getting beat back to the ground. somethign to give the flat image some depth.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So are you saying that seeing the actual hit was a weak point, or the the whole scene (including the behind the blinds)? Or are you saying that the part with the shadow on the blinds was the weak spot. I'm very interested and just want to make sure that I understand. Thanks for the input.

[david jerome]

Wow. Wow again. Wow again. woW backwards.
OK, I can finally think of a word,
Intense.
Maybe wow is a better word.

[TimurCivan]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So are you saying that seeing the actual hit was a weak point, or the the whole scene (including the behind the blinds)? Or are you saying that the part with the shadow on the blinds was the weak spot. I'm very interested and just want to make sure that I understand. Thanks for the input.


Mmm ok.

The initial hit was good, the sound was awesome.

But after that, he just goes kinda limp. i nkow he moves al ittle, but i seen someone get hit in the head with a baseball bat. ( dont ask) they fell down but immediatly the body goes into shock, and Fight or flight kicks in. he would at least tried to get up a little. Aside form realism, it provides a nice visual. The shadow on the curtains, would be the guy on the ground, with maybe a hand up trying to defend himself, ot you could see his shadow, start to try to get up. to give the sense that he is feeling the beating more before dying.

Its gruesome, but it also makes for a more compelling image.

[snodart]

The initial hit was good, the sound was awesome.

But after that, he just goes kinda limp. i nkow he moves al ittle, but i seen someone get hit in the head with a baseball bat. ( dont ask) they fell down but immediatly the body goes into shock, and Fight or flight kicks in. he would at least tried to get up a little. Aside form realism, it provides a nice visual. The shadow on the curtains, would be the guy on the ground, with maybe a hand up trying to defend himself, ot you could see his shadow, start to try to get up. to give the sense that he is feeling the beating more before dying.

Its gruesome, but it also makes for a more compelling image.

Perfect Thanks Timur. I understand now. We did think about this but decided to go the route we did. We were looking to show Mr. Nell's inner anger reaching the surface. The guy, in our opinion, would have been out cold and most likely permanently altered. My wife is a Pediatrician and Tim is an ER Doc, so we based this on their experiences/education. The idea was to show that Mr. Nell was beating a dead horse so to speak. In our minds, Mr. Nell was not finishing off the Pepophile necessarily, although perhaps he told himself he was. He was unleashing his inner anger and rage from his scared childhood (and maybe his current condition). I'm not trying to validate what we did with this, but just explaining our original goal. Thanks for you thoughts and input!

[TimurCivan]

thats cool. :)

[Kirk Gillock]

Definitely stands-out as being one of the best. Nice job.

The only thing I didn't like was the hooded sweatshirt. It revealed more than it disguised. What? You see, as soon as I saw the hooded sweatshirt the strange feeling I had of "Where have I seen this before?" finally got answered. ....Unbreakable. Granted, if he's going to attack someone he's probably going to want to hide himself by wearing a dark hooded outfit. (I normally do.) But still, the similarities between this and Unbreakable really made me step back from it. Some other herofest entries did this as well. Bone Hand was similar to The Professional, Once a Hero was similar to The Crow (The Sparrow?), and, the biggest offender of them all, Buckethead. LOL :) :)

Seriously, when working in a genre like this its almost impossible to avoid similarities to other films. I mean, how many different ways of telling the rise or fall of a superhero can there be? But the point of this festival wasn't to come up with a completely new idea, but rather to tell a story. And you told your story VERY VERY well. It was powerful and moving. The direction, the acting, the shots, were all excellent. Definitely one of the best. Good luck!

[theloniusjones]

The initial hit was good, the sound was awesome.

Thanks for the compliment. For the bat hit I recorded Snod smashing a coconut, watermelon, canteloupe, and honey dew melon with a bat, and we blended them together in Digital Performer until we got something we liked. We ended up going with mostly the canteloupe and honey dew with a bit of coconut and watermelon mixed in. It wasn't quite as "real" sounding as we had hoped for, but I fortunately have never heard a bat smash a person's face, so I'm not really sure what it would sound like anyway. We had a good time doing it though.

[TimurCivan]

you have to hit a steak too.

[theloniusjones]

you have to hit a steak too.

Good idea. Might have given us the "thud" it was missing.

[Slimothy]

Sorry if I'm repetitive, I haven't seen all the replys.

The look of this one is incredibly filmic throughout most of it. What time of day did you shoot the EXT scene w/ the van? Looked excellent. What I liked: story, cinematography, acting.

As Dahopa said, if I were to dig for negatives this would be it:

-Some barrel distortion on some of the shots (BTW: way to go on building your own adapter.)
-Music didn't really do it (or lack thereof.) Who knows, maybe this is better off w/o much music, but I like a good score.
-Lack of sound fx during the killing scene
-Killing scene looked phoney.

Great job.

[Slimothy]

The only thing I didn't like was the hooded sweatshirt. It revealed more than it disguised. What? You see, as soon as I saw the hooded sweatshirt the strange feeling I had of "Where have I seen this before?" finally got answered. ....Unbreakable. Granted, if he's going to attack someone he's probably going to want to hide himself by wearing a dark hooded outfit. (I normally do.) But still, the similarities between this and Unbreakable really made me step back from it. Some other herofest entries did this as well. Bone Hand was similar to The Professional, Once a Hero was similar to The Crow (The Sparrow?), and, the biggest offender of them all, Buckethead. LOL :) :)


I also second this comment. I also thought of Unbreakable.

[snodart]

Sorry if I'm repetitive, I haven't seen all the replys.

Fresh is better.



The look of this one is incredibly filmic throughout most of it. What time of day did you shoot the EXT scene w/ the van? Looked excellent. What I liked: story, cinematography, acting.

Thanks. We shot the van scene around 2pm. The sun was mostly overhead, but favored Mr. Nells face. The girl and the pedophile shots were done around 3pm (different day) with the sun a little more behind them (cam facing west).


As Dahopa said, if I were to dig for negatives this would be it:

-Some barrel distortion on some of the shots (BTW: way to go on building your own adapter.)

I was wondering if this would be mentioned. It's actually not true barrel distortion though. It is a flaw in my design. I used 2 extentions to hold the GG at a distance fromt he macro where it could shake away without shaking the cam or the adapter (the white things in the pic below). I did have 3 extentions there, but ditched one of them to ensure that the adapter and camera did not absorb even a hint of vibration. I tested it and it worked fine and didn't appear too let the GG move along the Z axis (front to back). The pattern of the vibration found a "grove" though in some of the shots and allowed the GG to move along the Z axis at the corners that didn't have the support. I need to add the 3rd extension and all should be well again. Two on either side of the motor and one at center across from the motor. Good eye.

http://www.snodart.com/snodpublic/snod35/Snod35.jpg


-Music didn't really do it (or lack thereof.) Who knows, maybe this is better off w/o much music, but I like a good score.

Agreed. Ran out of time for the score. Tim was able to add the guitar at end... but the rest was done in the 11th hour right before uploading.

-Lack of sound fx during the killing scene

I'm assuming your talking about the shadow/blinds part. We talked about it, and liked the no sound idea better. The goal was to let the score take over and keep the viewer as more of a specator.

-Killing scene looked phoney.
I know reviewing all the shorts is daunting, but I would love some more info on this one. Just so we understand what it was about the scene that didn't work for you.


Great job.

Thanks, and thanks for your input.

[KOVAROVA]

i dont have a lot of time to chime in but i wanted to let you know that i really liked this. :thumbsup: great job! loved the small details.. pic holding a lamb, bad coffee.. but why the azul / Blue poster? that took me by surprise.

[snodart]

but why the azul / Blue poster? that took me by surprise.

A Spanish version of a French film that deals with loss, in the house of a Pedophile in America. I thought it was a little too obvious really.
:)
Seriously though, it was already there. We chatted about what to do with it, chatted about it some more..... never made up our minds, so it stayed.
(Homage to Spanish versions of French Cinema)

Thank you for mentioning the details. We tried to keep a tight hold on them as much as we could. Thanks for the comments and complements!

[KOVAROVA]

i dont get the connection with the poster. something like KiDS may have been 'obviously' better. being a fan of that movie it took me way out of the scene for a moment. props like that are huge signals... might have been better to remove it.. or replace it with a crucifix or someting like that :evil:

that said.. it was an interesting casting choice for the pedophile.. not the type you would expect and gave that idea more dimension and more opportunity for your audience to question it.

v/good stuff.. look forward to your next movie.

[sean90291]

[SIZE=2]Oh, I was hoping to hear some comments about the bat hit. Just wondering what everyone's first impression was... also could use some technical nit picking. It was a pretty complicated shot and was a big chunk of work for us. We composited Mr. Nell and the pedophile with Shake. Dave (Mr. Nell) actually hit a 2 X 6 piece of wood that I was holding. J. Wayne (pedophile) was standing alone with no bat swinging when he made the great fall. Anyway, I would love to hear some comments about it if anybody is up for it.

Great camera work. You evoked a consistent, dramatic mood. Great lighting. Loved your performers. The story was so close to being awesome--it was good--but it could have been awesome if you really hit home the notion that the hero may have been imagining his powers and may have killed someone in error. I think that's what it's about: a guy who could have been a superhero or could have been crazy. Anyway, you almost nailed it if the story had been fine tuned a litttle.

And yes, I did wonder how you did the bat hit. It was flawless. It shocked me. I kept wondering how the heck you did it, because it looks amazingly real. I actually wondered if you used a foam bat for the quick strike, and then when the actor's hand goes out of frame, replaced with bat with a real one. I couldn't figure it out. So you did it with effects. Expertly done. It was a shocker. Worth watching if anyone hasn't seen it yet!

[MsManhattan]

The cinematography and lighting in this film are flawless -- but the thing that really stands out to me is the how nuanced the story is. When I discussed it with Aram, we had very different takes on it, and as I read some of the earlier posts I can see that people are really coming to it with different interpretations, which I think only makes it stronger.

Like, Aram, I inferred that the bedroom door opening and the man lurking in the doorway were a prelude to molestation of the little boy. But whereas Aram thought the little boy was the main character as a child, I thought the little boy was the main character's son, and it was the main character lurking in the doorway.

I thought he was driven to such rage over the incident with the little girl on the street because it ignited his own self loathing over the vile acts he had perpetrated himself on another innocent victim. And his whole psychosis -- delusion vs. reality -- probably stemmed from not being able to accept the horrendous things he had done (which had probably also been done to him -- so goes the cycle of child abuse).

As far as his premonitions, those to me somewhat confused the storyline, but they didn't bother me particularly. To me the story would have worked with or without them -- although, I love the beginning of the film and you wouldn't have had that without the premonition.

I never gave how he got the dude's address a second thought -- not when it's so easy to get personal info on people these days. I understood completely that he was reading the guy's license plate.

Finally, re: killing the guy -- it was extreme, and yes, possibly a miscarriage of justice, but I liked that. I, too, considered that possibly the dude in the car could have been the girl's father but probably not because if so, he wouldn't have driven off like he did. And, again, I thought the fact that you had established (1) the guy was delusional and (2) the guy was himself an abuser who was filled with so much self-loathing that he was driven into a rage (sorry, I'm repeating myself) that when he killed the guy it was really a projection of how he wished he could kill himself or that someone else would.

Anyway, I loved this, love the nuances and all the room for different interpretations, love the look and feel. Really, really excellent job.

[snodart]

i dont get the connection with the poster. something like KiDS may have been 'obviously' better. being a fan of that movie it took me way out of the scene for a moment. props like that are huge signals... might have been better to remove it.. or replace it with a crucifix or someting like that :evil:

Hey, I hope you understood that I was being sarcastic and attempting to poke fun at myself. I wasn't serious about it being obvious. We talked about taking it down many times, but just ended up leaving it. So there was no true art direction involved with the poster. And yes, KiDS would have been more fitting. Crucifix would have been excellent.

I have to feed my kids, but will be back to respond to the great new comments.

Again KOVAROVA, I hope my attempt at funny didn't come across in the wrong way. I really appreciate your input and agree with you.

[Chris Messineo]

Wow. Beautifully shot! Simply lovely to look at and the attention to detail in the shot selection is fantastic. Your lead actor was wonderful. Only complaints would be I would have liked to have seen some more work down with the sound and score. Overall, one of my favorite films in the contest.

Chris

[MsManhattan]

Hey, Justin -- I just looked at your cast credits, and I see that my take on the story (the man in the doorway, etc.) was not accurate, based on the fact that the child is called "Young Mr. Nell" and the dude in the doorway is "Man" and was played by you, not your lead actor. However, even knowing that, I still love that the story is complex and interesting enough, and the cinematography is such that as a viewer you can still find a lot of different ways to read the story. And, that it was compelling enough that I had to stop watching other films and go looking for the credits to try to discern the answer to my question... Once again, excellent job. And kudos to your family -- very nice to see that it was a family affair!

[snodart]

Great camera work. You evoked a consistent, dramatic mood. Great lighting. Loved your performers. The story was so close to being awesome--it was good--but it could have been awesome if you really hit home the notion that the hero may have been imagining his powers and may have killed someone in error. I think that's what it's about: a guy who could have been a superhero or could have been crazy. Anyway, you almost nailed it if the story had been fine tuned a litttle.

Thanks for the comments. As for the story, "a guy who could have been a superhero or could have been crazy" is pretty much the core of it. So most all of our ideas were determined by this single theme. I understand what you are saying about the story maybe needing a little more umph to drive this idea home. I'm honestly not sure what else we could have added, but that may simply be a matter of Tim and I needing more experience. The one thing that we didn't want to do was to make the story too ovbious. Our hope was to give just enough and let the viewer put some of the pieces together. Which would relate to MsManhattan's comment:

The cinematography and lighting in this film are flawless -- but the thing that really stands out to me is the how nuanced the story is. When I discussed it with Aram, we had very different takes on it, and as I read some of the earlier posts I can see that people are really coming to it with different interpretations, which I think only makes it stronger.



Hey, Justin -- I just looked at your cast credits, and I see that my take on the story (the man in the doorway, etc.) was not accurate, based on the fact that the child is called "Young Mr. Nell" and the dude in the doorway is "Man" and was played by you, not your lead actor. However, even knowing that, I still love that the story is complex and interesting enough, and the cinematography is such that as a viewer you can still find a lot of different ways to read the story. And, that it was compelling enough that I had to stop watching other films and go looking for the credits to try to discern the answer to my question... Once again, excellent job. And kudos to your family -- very nice to see that it was a family affair!


I love that there are different interpretations, but because that was not our intention for some of the scenes we will need to take a closer look at possible weaknesses in the story. There have been a few people that did not make the connection that the "flashback" scene was of Mr. Nell as a child being molested by somebody... dad, uncle, family friend, whoever. We tried to make this connection via the pictures and costume. The pictures were that of Mr. Nell as a child... he sees the one of himself dressed in a super-hero costume and it triggers a memory of his scared childhood of molestation... So the flashback shows Mr. Nell as a child in bed. He has fallen asleep in the same costume shown in the picture (with the idea that he may have worn it often as a child). We used the costume in the picture and in the flashback for several reasons.

- to show that it was Mr. Nell as a child. We see the pic of him as a child in a costume. Then in the flashback we see the costume again. Tim and I wanted this to be the link that showed that the child in bed was the young Mr. Nell.

- to show the innocence of childhood; the joys of immagination and dreams (of becoming a superhero for example).

- to show that perhaps Mr. Nell's powers are in fact real, which stems from the idea that maybe he had the powers as a child and therefor felt inclined to wear the costume. The powers might have been the one thing that couldn't be taken away by his molestor. The costume gave him a sense of power in a powerless setting.

I thought that the connection would be made that it was Mr. Nell as a child. Since some did not see it this way, Tim and I will take a closer look as to why.

As for the girl on the scooter and the pedophile in the car... we assumed that this might be taken a few different ways. We felt that the core purpose of the scene would remain in tack regardless. So far, I get the impression that it did.



And yes, I did wonder how you did the bat hit. It was flawless. It shocked me. I kept wondering how the heck you did it, because it looks amazingly real. I actually wondered if you used a foam bat for the quick strike, and then when the actor's hand goes out of frame, replaced with bat with a real one. I couldn't figure it out. So you did it with effects. Expertly done. It was a shocker. Worth watching if anyone hasn't seen it yet!


I'm glad to hear it. Since many around here are FX types, I was surprised that nobody had mentioned it. Anyway, thanks for the info on this.



Wow. Beautifully shot! Simply lovely to look at and the attention to detail in the shot selection is fantastic. Your lead actor was wonderful. Only complaints would be I would have liked to have seen some more work down with the sound and score. Overall, one of my favorite films in the contest.

Chris


Thanks for taking a look and leaving comments. Score, we agree. Was there anything specific about the sound that bothered you? We ate up most of our audio post-production time with the sound (dialog, background noise, room tone, sound FX etc). We were pretty happy with the end result (sound, not score), but would love to know if other's see something that we missed. Thanks for the kind words!

Great comments by all. Big time thanks!

[snodart]

And kudos to your family -- very nice to see that it was a family affair!

Yes! Our families and friends were a huge help in all of this. We would have never been able to do it without them. BTW, my wife (Tim's sister) played the woman in the clock shop and my daughter played the girl on the scooter and the child in the bedroom flashback. My daughter did amazing. She (5 years old) was very concerned about which way the cape should lay and the position of her feet during the bedroom scene. She held so still once she heard action, we often forgot that it was her and not a prop. My wife was beyond helpfully and understanding with all the time away from home shooting. I am a stay-at-home dad, so the time away was a healthy break for me. My wife also played a big role in critiquing our ideas and my edits. It is great to have an outside and fresh opinion when you become so deeply involved with your own creation that you become blind to it. Gotta love that family thing.

Tim's was a huge help as well, but I will let him do the honors.

[sean90291]

I wonder if some people didn't make the connection between your protagonist's own experience of abuse because the abuser (who walks in on the kid) looks a bit like the protagonist. In a short film, without much dialogue, maybe the audience is confusing your actors. I mean, maybe they looked too much alike. If the "abuser" had been much older, or with distinctive features, it might have worked better.

You're definitely asking good questions of yourself. And as you already exhibit quite a sizeable talent for creatiing provocative imagery on film, you'll end up making some amazing films by insisting your story is just as strong. I can't wait to see your next film, because Cache shows a lot of potential.

As for what you could have done to make the story "stronger," what about if there was more ambiguity about whether he was seeing the future or not. How could you accomplish this? Maybe between the therapist and the protagonist. Maybe just a couple of liines that cast doubt as to whether he's seeing the future or not. Because if it's his mental illness/imagination, then there might be an inconsistency that the therapist points out. Then the protagonist struggles with it. Also, maybe the villain (the child molestor) has not actually committed anything yet. So when your hero kills him, he's done something pre-emptively. And the question is, would the guy ever really have committed such a crime or not. Was it the hero's delusion or was it the truth. (See Minority Report: is it a crime to have possibly committed something in the future?). As it stands, your cahracter seems to clearly see the future. And so when he breaks down at the end and asks "what have I done" I can't help feeling like he did the only thing he could have in the circumstances: we don't really have any doubt that he could see the future. To hit it home, we need to have some doubt about his powers. Maybe he has to realize his powers are not really "powers" after all, just before he breaks down. Some evidence that it MIGHT be his imagination. It ain't easy, I agree. Making good films ain't easy. And you're getting real close.

[theloniusjones]

Tim's was a huge help as well, but I will let him do the honors.

Yeah, Justin and I are really lucky in that not only do our wives not mind that we do this, we're actually finding out that they're pretty decent amateur actresses. My wife was originally penciled in to play the woman in the clock shop, but because we were limited as to the amount of time we had to shoot in the clock shop, and traffic was bad, meaning my wife would have been late, we called Justin's wife (my sister) at the last minute, and she came from work and did it. Justin has 2 kids and I have an 18 month old, and our wives were both covering for us while we were shooting this, playing both the mom and dad roles. The day that we did the clock shop scene my wife was watching both families! She was a tremendous part of this.

I'm also really interested to hear more about what you felt didn't work about the molestation scene, or at least why it wasn't clear that it was a flashback to the main character as a child being molested by someone, likely an uncle or maybe his father. I think it was my idea to use the picture of the main character as a child in a superhero costume, then cut to him as a child in bed with the same costume on to partially use as a link to make the flashback clear, and also to suggest some presence of superpowers dating back to his childhood, and an early interest in using those powers to help others. I also thought it would suggest that the character's idealism as a child had been shattered by what this person did to him. We had some other ideas as far as how to create the main character's motivation for wanting to hurt this pedophile, but we settled on this one. We did question how all of this would come across, so it's be great to hear more about your thoughts on what we might have done differently.

As far as the score goes, that was my responsibilty. I recently ditched my PC and bought a mac and digital performer, and the task of learning it and finishing the sound design and score in the time I had with working full time was a bit too much. Snod came through with some last minute score though which I thought definitely improved what we were about to submit. Looking forward to improving this part of our work in future stuff though.

Thanks for the comments everyone!

[Isaac_Brody]

Wow. I'm impressed snodart/theloniusjones. I thought this was excellent. Your lighting and cinematography worked beautifully, and your lead actor was great. His performance was very nuanced and he's very talented. I thought how you potrayed the abuse was perfect.

I really enjoyed it. A lot of thought went into this and you jammed so much information into the visuals. Great work. :)

[snodart]

I wonder if some people didn't make the connection between your protagonist's own experience of abuse because the abuser (who walks in on the kid) looks a bit like the protagonist. In a short film, without much dialogue, maybe the audience is confusing your actors. I mean, maybe they looked too much alike. If the "abuser" had been much older, or with distinctive features, it might have worked better.
This is the only thing I can think of. I'm pretty sure that you nailed it.



As for what you could have done to make the story "stronger," what about if there was more ambiguity about whether he was seeing the future or not. How could you accomplish this? Maybe between the therapist and the protagonist. Maybe just a couple of liines that cast doubt as to whether he's seeing the future or not. Because if it's his mental illness/imagination, then there might be an inconsistency that the therapist points out. Then the protagonist struggles with it. Also, maybe the villain (the child molestor) has not actually committed anything yet. So when your hero kills him, he's done something pre-emptively. And the question is, would the guy ever really have committed such a crime or not. Was it the hero's delusion or was it the truth. (See Minority Report: is it a crime to have possibly committed something in the future?). As it stands, your cahracter seems to clearly see the future. And so when he breaks down at the end and asks "what have I done" I can't help feeling like he did the only thing he could have in the circumstances: we don't really have any doubt that he could see the future. To hit it home, we need to have some doubt about his powers. Maybe he has to realize his powers are not really "powers" after all, just before he breaks down. Some evidence that it MIGHT be his imagination. It ain't easy, I agree. Making good films ain't easy. And you're getting real close.


Excellent points. You seem to have a very good understanding of what our intentions were so I am taking your comments with high regard. I think the key as you mentioned is "...we don't really have any doubt that he could see the futur." This is most definitely something that we were going for: a sense of doubt that the "ability" was real. The problem with tyring to do this was that we didn't want the viewer to write Mr. Nell off as just crazy, but we did want them to question, at least to some extent, if the ability was real. We wanted the attack to feel very displaced and brutal so that any closeness that the viewer felt with Mr. Nell was jolted away. So I guess you could say that the idea was to gently bring the viewer onto the side of Mr. Nell (or at least feel compassion for him) and then jerk them away when he attacks the pedophile so brutally.... leaving them questioning their own actions, opinions, beliefs, etc. After the bat hit, we wanted the viewer to almost feel guilty for having fallen on the side of Mr. Nell (even if it was slight). Almost as if they took part in the attack in some small way. Now, how well we accomplished this... is hard to say. Probably close to impossible to squeeze this much into 6 minutes. Judging by the comments, I think it may have worked this way for some and not for others. I'm so glad we attempted a more complex story. It has proven to be a great learning experience.

I would love to hear more about this from others as well if anyone is up to it.

I'm guessing that Tim and I will be discussing this point to some extent (over some cold one's of course).

Thank you for your time! Great stuff.

[snodart]

Wow. I'm impressed snodart/theloniusjones. I thought this was excellent. Your lighting and cinematography worked beautifully, and your lead actor was great. His performance was very nuanced and he's very talented. I thought how you potrayed the abuse was perfect.

I really enjoyed it. A lot of thought went into this and you jammed so much information into the visuals. Great work. :)


Isaac, many, many thanks.

[Rasquachemedia]

i finally saw all the films and this one by far had the best look, it was the most filmic.

A previous post said there were similarities with Unbreakable, but rather than a negative critique I would take it as a compliment because I really do think you achieved a look and feel that is comparable to a film of that caliber.

My comments are above are based on the cinematography and the acting. your lead has the look.

I also liked the dark superhero, again it kinda resembles Unbreakable here, but even takes it further.

Critical comments would be on the editing (specifically the pace) and the screenplay. Of course I would have liked to know and see more of the superhero, more dimension per say. Overall i think the story could use a little more work.

Let me go back to the pace. I really liked that you took your time and allowed us to "absorb" the canvass, but there were parts that I think could have been a bit shorter. It almost feels delayed at some points.

Again major props for your accomplishment with this film. Let me tell you exactly what i loved, the opening scene and the one where he's lugging out the clock from the van. for me those scenes just look great.

[Blaine]

This is the only thing I can think of. I'm pretty sure that you nailed it.

I think the key as you mentioned is "...we don't really have any doubt that he could see the futur." This is most definitely something that we were going for: a sense of doubt that the "ability" was real. The problem with tyring to do this was that we didn't want the viewer to write Mr. Nell off as just crazy, but we did want them to question, at least to some extent, if the ability was real. We wanted the attack to feel very displaced and brutal so that any closeness that the viewer felt with Mr. Nell was jolted away. So I guess you could say that the idea was to gently bring the viewer onto the side of Mr. Nell (or at least feel compassion for him) and then jerk them away when he attacks the pedophile so brutally.... leaving them questioning their own actions, opinions, beliefs, etc. After the bat hit, we wanted the viewer to almost feel guilty for having fallen on the side of Mr. Nell (even if it was slight). Almost as if they took part in the attack in some small way. Now, how well we accomplished this... is hard to say. Probably close to impossible to squeeze this much into 6 minutes. Judging by the comments, I think it may have worked this way for some and not for others. I'm so glad we attempted a more complex story. It has proven to be a great learning experience.

I would love to hear more about this from others as well if anyone is up to it.
This is exactly what struck me the most and what I touched on in my original review.

You spent a good deal of time setting up Mr. Nell's psychosis. Juxtapose that with an alternate reality and you are left questioning what is real. Just as was Mr. Nell. For me, this being a super hero exhibition and all, I took Mr. Nell's apparent psychosis as being true super human powers. This story really reminded me of the issues raised in Bill Paxton's movie, Frailty. What's real and what isn't.
I love stories that leave you wondering what's real and what isn't. That is what strikes such a chord with about your story. There's no definite answer. We don't know if he's crazy or has some super power to "see the future." Again, that's a testiment to the story telling. It would have been easy to say, "yes, he's a superhero" or "yes, he's crazy" but you didn't take the easy way out. You are letting the viewer make that decision for himself. And there really is no wrong answer. :thumbsup:

[Chris Messineo]

Thanks for taking a look and leaving comments. Score, we agree. Was there anything specific about the sound that bothered you? We ate up most of our audio post-production time with the sound (dialog, background noise, room tone, sound FX etc). We were pretty happy with the end result (sound, not score), but would love to know if other's see something that we missed. Thanks for the kind words!
First, you have to realize I am being extra picky, because there is so much to like, I have to dig to find something to improve. :)

As for the sound, take the second to last scene where he attacks the guy. The sounds are a little too distant and hollow, for my taste. Also there are a few sounds missing, like the footsteps of him walking into the apartment. Subtle things, but I think they can add to the richness of the film.

I hope that helps,

Chris

[snodart]

First, you have to realize I am being extra picky, because there is so much to like, I have to dig to find something to improve. :)

As for the sound, take the second to last scene where he attacks the guy. The sounds are a little too distant and hollow, for my taste. Also there are a few sounds missing, like the footsteps of him walking into the apartment. Subtle things, but I think they can add to the richness of the film.

I hope that helps,

Chris

Thanks. I agree. Tim and I played with that audio for a long time. We listened to the same sounds for so long that I think eventually it somehow sounded right at the time. Having had a break from seeing and hearing it... the bathroom scene, the knock at door, the pedophile's "uhhhggg", all have that hollowness to them. I'm pretty certain it was adjustments we made in Digital Performer. Tim is still getting acquainted with DP and I have never used it... what better way to learn right. We are going to work on the score this weekend, so Tim and I will most likely spend some time with these. The footsteps we left out intentionally, but I see your point. I should say that there was a lot of foley work that Tim headed up. Of course most of it goes unnoticed since he did a great job.

I'm glad you mentioned this. We will be working on it for the finalized version.

I understand that you said you are being 'extra picky', but thank you for doing so. If it can be done better, then it should be done better. I'm just glad that we have a chance to make some changes for the final version.

Thanks for the help and the great compliments as well.

[heisest]

Very disturbing film and non traditional hero. Well done.
It moved me to both pitty the guy and be a bit horrified at the end.
There might not have been much acting per say... but it was done to perfection.

[snodart]

Very disturbing film and non traditional hero. Well done.
It moved me to both pitty the guy and be a bit horrified at the end.
There might not have been much acting per say... but it was done to perfection.

Thank you for the input.

I'm not sure I agree with this though:



There might not have been much acting per say


At any rate, we appreciate you comments.

Thanks.

[Kaz]

I enjoyed this. Reminded me of a darker "Unbreakable". The acting was a definite strong point. I also like that the beating was in a silhouette & mostly not seen. Your imagination can do far more damage to that guy than a filmmaker showing it.

Good job!

[concannon]

There might not have been much acting per say... but it was done to perfection.

Thank you for your input. I was hoping you would expand on your comment. When you say "not much acting", do you mean that your disagreed with some of the acting choices or did you find the presentation lacking in the respect that through the acting it was unable to "suspend disbelief"? Your thoughts are welcome....so please expand if you will.

A lot of the preparation had to do with emotional instinct as opposed to intense character study, simply because in 6 minutes we are given "Bullet Points" and not afforded the luxury of getting to know the Character over a two hour time frame. So, in this role I did take some risks as far as choices outside of what I would normally play. I tried to attack it form the convention that have to paint the entire canvas of that character in a short amount of time.

This is what I tried to map out for myself and this may or may not go along with what Justin and Tim had in mind so they may say something different as this character is they're own interpretation which supersedes mine...

...so here goes.

I wanted to show the character unravel in a linear sense as the film progressed. Starting with the doctor's office (I think that was the first scripted scene in the original script?). I wanted to protray Mr. Nell in the "Actual World" as far as he is at his most real or without his defenses while he is talking with the doctor. To him the exchange is real.

In the watch shop scene he is smug and a little cocky, perhaps rude as I wanted to show that his interaction with the woman required a mask of sorts as his way of hiding. From my reading about children who have experienced traumatic events such as molestation or abuse, adopt ways to escape within themselves. These are survival techniques. As far as carrying those elements into adulthood, those same adopted attributes now used as a reaction are anti-social in the respect that they prohibit the person from any real or sustained emotional connection or contact with another human being. Akin to what I have experienced in observing adults with post traumatic stress disorder.

I believe that the character in some way blamed himself, even though as a child he was defenseless. I interpreted the young Mr. Nell wearing the suit with the rational that if he wore the suit, he would be strong "this time" and defeat the evil "molester". As if the suit was to give him some type of protection. I am sure that he believed it because he had to...and I think that is what makes him more broken. I remember as a small child being able to believe in God and superheros with no reservation or doubt. The fact that he wears the suit and it does not work for him to me fell along the lines that his perception of God had turned his back on him. From there it was easy to create in my head this character that feels nothing but emptiness, his actions are a way to escape and deal with the past...we know that the character believes that he can see into the future but at the same time it is left up to the audience to deiced if he is crazy or not. I am rambling here

Side note: I have not seen "Unbreakable" but I am interested to see it know that there have been references to it...interesting.

Anyway, thank you for the comment and I would love to here more interpretation.

[snodart]

Wow Dave. Thanks. That was good for me to read.




Side note: I have not seen "Unbreakable" but I am interested to see it know that there have been references to it...interesting.


This is hard to believe coming from a guy who has seen more movies than a Blockbuster Video store.
:)

I think the main links to unbreakable are the average joe in a realistic setting discovering that he has an extraordinary ability.... or in the case or Mr. Nell, the possiblity of having such an ability. The one link that probably made it official is the hood, but it seemed the only way to go. Ski mask, sunglasses, mask, etc would have failed miserably in this case I think.

[concannon]

Justin,
I hate to tell you reason I never saw the film. I remember watching the trailer and for some reason it looked like Bruce Willis was wearing caked on black eyeliner....I had to seriously ask myself if I was willing to sit through two hours of Bruce Willis and his eyeliner. Wierd....

[Chris Messineo]

Snodart,

One more question. Did you ever consider having a little blood hit the window shade in the scene with the bat? Not a lot mind you, but just a slight spatter.

Chris

[mrpunch]

David, I thought this was the best acting in the fest. It was the other element that made this one stand out for me. The other element was cinematography. But there is a difference between shooting great shots and shooting great shots of a great subject! So, you guys hit the combo, imo. I guess there wasn't a moment that I didn't totally believe. Your performance had layers - and depth - and that's a hard thing to do without an acting partner and a lot of dialogue! As an actor, it is an inspiring performance to watch.

Justin - congrats overall. I agree that at the end - your imagination can provide even more terror than showing us the 'beating'. I liked that. I do like the suggestion of something like a splatter of blood or something as well.

[snodart]

Snodart,

One more question. Did you ever consider having a little blood hit the window shade in the scene with the bat? Not a lot mind you, but just a slight spatter.

Chris

Chris,
Yes, we did talk about it, but decided against it. We decided that it would have been a little too much. I think the scene is pretty shocking as is. I don't know though, I think that a very very small amount of splatter might have been a nice touch. It would have had to of been something that made people say, "oh, was that blood?" and not "damn, that guys blood splatted on the blinds!"

In the original version, instead of cutting when Mr. Nell leans up against the blinds, the shot keeps going (long continuous shot). We dollied back with Mr. Nell as he walked out the front door. We held on the empty doorway with only the pedophile's motionless feet showing. We haven't fully decided about adding this in the final version. I'm pretty fond of it in its original state, but that doesn't always mean it should be used.

BTW, Tim tackled the often confusing timing issues involved with shooting a composite like this. There was not several individual shots composited together, but one long continuous shot that was cut up and realigned. Anyway, Tim saved us a good deal of time and effort with this one.

[Chris Messineo]

Yes, we did talk about it, but decided against it. We decided that it would have been a little too much. I think the scene is pretty shocking as is. I don't know though, I think that a very very small amount of splatter might have been a nice touch. It would have had to of been something that made people say, "oh, was that blood?" and not "damn, that guys blood splatted on the blinds!"
Interesting. I think visually it could have been quite striking and if not overdone (ala buckets of blood) it could have added to the impact. Anyway, great film and I enjoyed it with or without the blood.

Chris

[heisest]

Thank you for your input. I was hoping you would expand on your comment. When you say "not much acting", do you mean that your disagreed with some of the acting choices or did you find the presentation lacking in the respect that through the acting it was unable to "suspend disbelief"? Your thoughts are welcome....so please expand if you will.

Well I guess I should have said not much dialog. Much of we see is the reactions of the 'hero' to what it happening to others. Facial expressions. And it was done very well. It was believable. So my comment wasnt mean to be a negative.

A good story is one that can move an audience's emotions.
And yours did it for me. Well done.

[concannon]

Thank you for your message. That brings up an interesting point which I feel is great about Justin and Tim's work here. They did an amazing job of taking the script which is mainly a map of specific "actions and dialouge", and pulled out the underlining feelings and emotions that drive it in a very meaningful and powerful way.

[WilderWorks]

Just want to say this was in my top three, and I really admire the control of tone and the excellent visual style. As I believe others have noted, I was left a little unclear concerning who was who now and then, so that's something to take into consideration in the future -- a problem easily solved by careful casting or costume design. And it happens even in major productions. If the players aren't big names, with faces we've seen a million times, sometimes we need a little longer than usual to pick them out.

[snodart]

Just want to say this was in my top three, and I really admire the control of tone and the excellent visual style. As I believe others have noted, I was left a little unclear concerning who was who now and then, so that's something to take into consideration in the future -- a problem easily solved by careful casting or costume design. And it happens even in major productions. If the players aren't big names, with faces we've seen a million times, sometimes we need a little longer than usual to pick them out.

Excellent, excellent point. Tim and I were talking about this today when picking apart why some folks got lost. We realized that it made sense to us while making/editing because we have been around the actors and could easily distinguish them from each other. Another great lesson learned for the future. Thanks for the tip! I'm surprised that I didn't take this into consideration, since I am usually the first to mix up characters when watching a flick.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

GReat job guys ... some really excellent lighting and comps and unique characters and good story.

I only have two tiny dings and one suggestion. The colors seemed a little too saturated for my taste and looked less filmic therefore. In your banner their's a nice sort of bleachbybass CC going on and I would encourage you to explore that. It was mostly in the skin tones that it bugged me, but that could have been because most of the principles were SO tan. Just something to think about.

I was able to hold the narrative through him trying to remember the license plate number to showing up at the guys house and whooping him, but my girl friend was not, and I was only able to do it because I knew that's where you wanted to take the story. I think there needs to be a link somehow. Most of us can't find somebody's address from the license plate, so just a shot of him on a people finder or private eye website entering a license plate #, or something is all you need (sorry if I'm way off on what I think happened in terms of him getting the license and somehow finding the guy)

Finally I would consider reordering the scenes as follows if his perfromance tracks OK through it.
- beating the guy
- psychatrist scene from the beginning "how would I know if I'm hallucinating"
- my god what have I done.
Why? Because you have a picked a great idea of approriate scale for short film and you sort of deny us the pleasure of wondering what's going on and then the punchline or payoff to the piece is somewhat weekened I think, because you've already set out clearly that he has hallucinations (or at least according to the medical community)

If we start with him in the shop with the deja vu vision, and then maybe see him with the meds, and then see him see the kid ... then we are gooing back and forth and confused in a good way ... what was with those pills, it seems like he can see the future but why is he so upset and disquited by it why isn't it a good thing, i guess he's a superhero that sees the future but its too taxing on him or something

and then you hit us with the doctor scene -- Ohhh crapppp he's nuts

and then have the nice coda with the what have I done scene.

Whatcha think.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it had a fairly nice tragectory and I enjoyed it as is, I'm just looking at short film srtucture and the notion that what seems to work best is the set up and then defiance of an expectation rather than a fulfillment of one, and withholding a definitive answer on his mental state until the end seems to fall into that way of thinking and make the tragectory less straight.

But again really enjoyed it, the scene ordering thing is a something to think about rather than a criticism (if you do it you probably need less of the doctor scene at that poingt), I liked the acting a lot as well as the general idea and story (and your guy reminded me of Bill Paxton in a good way). Looking forward to more from you, you are high in the top 3 on my score sheet.

Thanks,

Jack

[snodart]

JDS, thanks for all the input.


I only have two tiny dings and one suggestion. The colors seemed a little too saturated for my taste and looked less filmic therefore. In your banner their's a nice sort of bleachbybass CC going on and I would encourage you to explore that. It was mostly in the skin tones that it bugged me, but that could have been because most of the principles were SO tan. Just something to think about.

I agree, a bleach bypass sort of look could be worth exploring.



I was able to hold the narrative through him trying to remember the license plate number to showing up at the guys house and whooping him, but my girl friend was not, and I was only able to do it because I knew that's where you wanted to take the story. I think there needs to be a link somehow. Most of us can't find somebody's address from the license plate, so just a shot of him on a people finder or private eye website entering a license plate #, or something is all you need (sorry if I'm way off on what I think happened in terms of him getting the license and somehow finding the guy)


This has been discussed, some seem to get it with out exrta help, some dont. It is a fine line as to how much to give the viewer. Too much info seems to make for a less interactive and perhaps boring experience. Not enough, of course leaves some confused. This is definately something we tried to keep in mind and will continue to keep a close watch on in future. I like the idea of a story not unfolding in front of the viewer's eyes, but being unfolded by the viewer. At least giving the viewer the impression that they are unfolding the story. I'm not sure how many have heard Phil Henry and his radio talk show, but he is a true expert at this. Either way, thanks for the input... it all brings us closer to being able to pull this concept off.


Finally I would consider reordering the scenes as follows if his perfromance tracks OK through it.
- beating the guy
- psychatrist scene from the beginning "how would I know if I'm hallucinating"
- my god what have I done.
Why? Because you have a picked a great idea of approriate scale for short film and you sort of deny us the pleasure of wondering what's going on and then the punchline or payoff to the piece is somewhat weekened I think, because you've already set out clearly that he has hallucinations (or at least according to the medical community)

If we start with him in the shop with the deja vu vision, and then maybe see him with the meds, and then see him see the kid ... then we are gooing back and forth and confused in a good way ... what was with those pills, it seems like he can see the future but why is he so upset and disquited by it why isn't it a good thing, i guess he's a superhero that sees the future but its too taxing on him or something

and then you hit us with the doctor scene -- Ohhh crapppp he's nuts

and then have the nice coda with the what have I done scene.

Whatcha think.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it had a fairly nice tragectory and I enjoyed it as is, I'm just looking at short film srtucture and the notion that what seems to work best is the set up and then defiance of an expectation rather than a fulfillment of one, and withholding a definitive answer on his mental state until the end seems to fall into that way of thinking and make the tragectory less straight.

I think your idea might work fine, but it just wasn't the feel that we were going for. We did not want the traditional "punchline" or "payoff" as seen in many films. The purpose of our version was not to show that he was in fact crazy in the end. We wanted it to still be left open as to whether or not the ability was real or simply a result of his mental state. So there realy is not a true payoff, punchline, or twist to leave the viewer with a sense of resolve. Instead we were goaled with leaving the viewer with an uneasy feeling in hopes that, to some degree, it would cause them to question how they look at the idealized notion of justice.

It is important to understand tradition, before attempting to step away from it, however slight. So your input and ideas have been nice to read; and we appreciate it.

Thanks

EDIT:spelling

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

welll it does work and I admire you for having the courage to go against the usual punchline payoff ...

I wonder if you could introduce some of that at the end and still have it be ambiguous but just have more of a button by introducing that new idea more towards the end

its not "broken" as is, just pondering structure and impact in these mini movies

[Kholi]

Late viewer,

Got a chance to watch, re-watch, then watch a third time just now.

I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. I was going to ask about the guy entering the bedroom scene, but after scanning the thread I found out.

The only thing that honestly didn't do it for me was the score. It was a tad bit off... like... not "it" for this short. Y'know?

Otherwise, top vote right here.

Your adapter rocks. You've probably gone over all of the specifics about it, so I'll have to scan again.

Great job, you guys. Looking forward to your next piece.

Edit Here:

I just noticed you were using a 100b. I dunno, for some reason, a and b seem like two different cameras to me. The image is just super clean, man. And with your adapter, it looks superb. I really want to see this on a television. I'm not at home in OC right now so I can't just put up the file in Quicktime. SUcks.

[Norm Sanders]

Wow, well I can't take the time to read through the 11 pages of posts, so I'll just put mine here. Any questions I ask that I'm SURE you've answered you can feel free to just cut & paste or point me to the appropriate page for the answers. :)

First, this is the only one that's rec'd a 10 from me for acting. Outstanding job. WOWZA!

Everything was actually quite solid in this, but where it fell just a TAD short (still ranked VERY high, but this is my only beef, if there were one), would be in knowing what exactly happened ... or perhaps it's SUPPOSED to be ambiguous and open to debate.

I didn't know if he had a child that had perhaps been lost to a predator, and he believed this was the one, or he himself had been abused, and that's why we see the face as he himself saw it as a child.

I DO understand that the guy he killed was the one in the Subaru Outback, but I'm confused on who was in the picture ... him or his child.

Two MINOR technical critiques were to get a different SFX for when the bat hits the guy's head ... just didn't sell it for me ... and that after SMASHING the guy's skull that many times, there should have been some kind of dark matter making its way up onto the blinds (blood, chunks of tissue, skull, etc.) ... something that would block the light some as it splattered onto the blinds.

Otherwise, top notch job. Really nice film.

[Mark Harris]

I too am coming a little late to this thread. I am finally cathing up on a bunch of the films now.

This was GREAT. Well made, good acting. I think it's the best thing I've seen.

It felt lifted from Donny Darko, both in tone and content. Maybe it was supposed to be and that was discussed earlier. If so, ignore this part of the post.

I didn't have any real issue with the ambiguity. I like movies that leave me wondering, because they really engage your imagination rather than just spoon-feed everything to you.

However, I will put in that I assumed the pic was of him as a boy.

BUT, I think if there is confusion about whether it is him, or his kid, LEAVE IT LIKE THAT. How great is it that you can have a series of images so equally mean two things? I like it a lot.

I was going to say I thought you could have done without the opening scene, because it never really comes back to that. Unless it does in some secret way I don't get. But you know what, the movie is good enough that it doesn't matter that much to me.

Amazing work.

[sean90291]

I wonder if a dissolve between the picture of the child and the protagonist in close up would emphasize the protagonist and abused child are one and the same. You could even insert a close up of the photo (re-shoot it if you have to) and dissolve to a close up of your actor. That's a convention most of us know says, "the guy in the picture is him in the past."

A couple people said there should be a blood splatter on the blinds. I don't agree. I like the way it is. Simple, real, and most of all DIFFERENT. The blood spatter is done to death in corny shorts. And truly, if you've ever beaten anyone really badly with a bat (I have many times), you break bones and sh*t but blood doesn't come squirting out. ;-)

[Mark Harris]

I agree about the splatter sean90291. It doesn't matter to me either way, because it;s not the important part of the story to me.

[Norm Sanders]

Sorry, sean90291, I've seen enough police photographs of slayings that the blood DOES come out. Sure, with just one or two hits it wouldn't necessarily, but he hit that skull with FULL force many times over ... to the point that the last few wold be like ramming that bat into a soup bowl ... at the very least when you pull that Louisville Slugger out of the cavity, SOMETHING's going to be sticking to it & slinging off.

[snodart]

Late viewer,

Got a chance to watch, re-watch, then watch a third time just now.

I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. I was going to ask about the guy entering the bedroom scene, but after scanning the thread I found out.

The only thing that honestly didn't do it for me was the score. It was a tad bit off... like... not "it" for this short. Y'know?

Otherwise, top vote right here.

Your adapter rocks. You've probably gone over all of the specifics about it, so I'll have to scan again.

Great job, you guys. Looking forward to your next piece.

Kholi, thanks for taking a good look at it. We agree totally about the score. We just ran short on time. Tim and I (mostly Tim) worked on the final score this weekend and plan to have it finished for the DVD and screening if Cache makes it there.

I have not gone into too many details about the adapter in this thread, but you can get some more info in the link below. There are some pics of the original version there. It has been completely revised since then, but the concept is the same. I'm attempting to put out a DIY DVD sometime in the next few months. We will be making something for Horror Fest though and that will take priority and receive 110% of our attention.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=45972&page=65

Thanks for the great compliments.


First, this is the only one that's rec'd a 10 from me for acting. Outstanding job. WOWZA!

I agree and pass all the credit to Dave Concannon's great work on this.


]Everything was actually quite solid in this, but where it fell just a TAD short (still ranked VERY high, but this is my only beef, if there were one), would be in knowing what exactly happened ... or perhaps it's SUPPOSED to be ambiguous and open to debate.

I didn't know if he had a child that had perhaps been lost to a predator, and he believed this was the one, or he himself had been abused, and that's why we see the face as he himself saw it as a child.


I didn't have any real issue with the ambiguity. I like movies that leave me wondering, because they really engage your imagination rather than just spoon-feed everything to you.

However, I will put in that I assumed the pic was of him as a boy.

BUT, I think if there is confusion about whether it is him, or his kid, LEAVE IT LIKE THAT. How great is it that you can have a series of images so equally mean two things? I like it a lot.


I wonder if a dissolve between the picture of the child and the protagonist in close up would emphasize the protagonist and abused child are one and the same. You could even insert a close up of the photo (re-shoot it if you have to) and dissolve to a close up of your actor. That's a convention most of us know says, "the guy in the picture is him in the past."

The issue of the flashback has come up. Some got that it was him as a boy and others thought that it was his son... one person thought it was him molesting a boy. It seems that most leaned toward it being him as a boy, which was our intent. I agree with desperatecomfort in that the ambiguity works as a plus. I'm am not a big fan of having a story fed to me. Yet, because we did intend to show that it was him as a boy, at least to a slightly greater degree, we have been discussing various ways that we could have done it differently. The input has been a great help in this. The core purpose of the scene was to show that Mr. Nell has a damaged past. Whatever way the scene is taken, I think that this core aspect gets to the viewer. We will most likely leave it as is and count it as a happy accident.


Two MINOR technical critiques were to get a different SFX for when the bat hits the guy's head ... just didn't sell it for me

This is a tough one. It hasen't come up much in the tread. Sometimes I see it and love the sound FX, other times I hate it. I think that perhaps it could use something.



... and that after SMASHING the guy's skull that many times, there should have been some kind of dark matter making its way up onto the blinds (blood, chunks of tissue, skull, etc.) ... something that would block the light some as it splattered onto the blinds.


A couple people said there should be a blood splatter on the blinds. I don't agree. I like the way it is. Simple, real, and most of all DIFFERENT. The blood spatter is done to death in corny shorts. And truly, if you've ever beaten anyone really badly with a bat (I have many times), you break bones and sh*t but blood doesn't come squirting out. ;-)



I agree about the splatter sean90291. It doesn't matter to me either way, because it;s not the important part of the story to me.




Sorry, sean90291, I've seen enough police photographs of slayings that the blood DOES come out. Sure, with just one or two hits it wouldn't necessarily, but he hit that skull with FULL force many times over ... to the point that the last few wold be like ramming that bat into a soup bowl ... at the very least when you pull that Louisville Slugger out of the cavity, SOMETHING's going to be sticking to it & slinging off.


The matter splatter.... all great points. Here is my take on it: In reality, perhaps there would be blood and brain matter on the blinds and perhaps even on Mr. Nell. IMO though, it is not necessary in this case and would have had the potential to distract. When we discussed this topic, we also thought that adding the blood would feel a little too expected.

There is a short film (don't remember the name) that is set up as a documentary. It shows a man on his way to receive the ultimate piece of body art, a gun shot wound in the arm. At the time of the gunshot, his body does not fly back and he is not projected out of the chair. Though the short was a fake documentary, and the man was not actually shot, wow did it look real. If it would have been played out like a traditional hollywood gun shot, there is no way it would have worked.

At any rate, all the great comments and discussion have been excellent and are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the input and compliments

[concannon]

I saw that one a few years ago at the AFI Fest. Funny.

[snodart]

I saw that one a few years ago at the AFI Fest. Funny.

I should have known that Dave would have already seen it. What a great short! I have it on a DVD somewhere around here.... I will see if I can find it and get the name.

EDIT:



It felt lifted from Donny Darko, both in tone and content. Maybe it was supposed to be and that was discussed earlier. If so, ignore this part of the post.


I almost forgot about this comment. I spent some time with several movies in preparation for making Cache. The three that I probably looked at the most were Memento, The Machinist, and Donnie Darko.

(Tim may have looked at others)

[theloniusjones]

What a great short! I have it on a DVD somewhere around here.... I will see if I can find it and get the name.

It's called "Delusions in Modern Primitivism". Loved it. Here's the website:

http://www.danloflin.com/dimp/


I spent some time with several movies in preparation for making Cache. The three that I probably looked at the most were Memento, The Machinist, and Donnie Darko. (Tim may have looked at others)

Didn't really draw inspiration from this movie other than for this, but the flashback scene is an homage to one of my favorites, "O Homem que Copiava (The Man Who Copied)", a brazilian film.

[Mark Harris]

I almost forgot about this comment. I spent some time with several movies in preparation for making Cache. The three that I probably looked at the most were Memento, The Machinist, and Donnie Darko.

(Tim may have looked at others)


All great choices for influences. :)

What I have been wracking my brain about though, is what the title means and how it relates to the story...

[arielman]

Finaly got to watch CACHE this morning .

I like to different angle you took onthis ..Is he on Meds ..no..is he delusioned ? maybe .keeps you thinking .

Thought the actor was perfect for the role .

Liked the baseball bat scene ...who needs blood ..I thought the scene said it all when the bat breaks ..Silence ( no crunching) and no blood splatter . Only his frustration .

The ending caught me by surprise ..a Super hero/hero with remorse for what he had done . I just couldn't catch those last words he was saying ..I think he was saying ..."what have I done "

Great choice in picking this guy for the role ...he did a nice job !!!

Congrats on a great short .
Ian

[snodart]

What I have been wracking my brain about though, is what the title means and how it relates to the story...


cache:

A hiding place used especially for storing provisions.
A place for concealment and safekeeping, as of valuables.
A store of goods or valuables concealed in a hiding place: maintained a cache of food in case of emergencies.
Computer Science. A fast storage buffer in the central processing unit of a computer. Also called cache memory.I chose the name because I liked the way that it fit, but also how the relation is not blatantly obvious. A mild riddle in some ways. I saw that the name fit partly because his ability/delusion resemble a jump in time which I thought seemed similar to the computer science definition of the word. The "time jumps", if seen as an ability, relate to the idea that he can see into the immediate future by tapping into the memory cache of time (this of course would assumes predestiny). As a delusion, it relates to the idea that the memory cache in his brain is misfiring and causing jumps back in his own memory storage.

The other definitions of the word have a less direct fit, but I still saw a connection. Mr. Nell has most likely had the ability/delusion for some time, perhaps even since being a child. He has avoided letting the "ability" come to the surface as it has been assumed to be a error of the brain. When he stops taking the meds and comes across the pedophile, he utilizes the "time-jump" to save the girl and put a stop to the pedophile (at least in his mind). So in a sense, his "ability" had been kept hidden away until he decided to use it for what he saw at the time as justice.

At any rate, I liked the idea of people questing the title. It is also consistent with the ambiguity of the story. Because the story had many unresolved issues, a more direct name would have carried a good deal of power in answering questions that I though should be left unanswered. Some names that I briefly pondered were: time-jump, worm-hold, misjustice, etc. They all sucked. Anyway, I thought cache fit.

[snodart]

I like to different angle you took onthis ..Is he on Meds ..no..is he delusioned ? maybe .keeps you thinking .

Thought the actor was perfect for the role .

Liked the baseball bat scene ...who needs blood ..I thought the scene said it all when the bat breaks ..Silence ( no crunching) and no blood splatter . Only his frustration .

The ending caught me by surprise ..a Super hero/hero with remorse for what he had done . I just couldn't catch those last words he was saying ..I think he was saying ..."what have I done "

Great choice in picking this guy for the role ...he did a nice job !!!

Congrats on a great short .
Ian

Ian, thanks for watching and the comments. Oh, and yes, the last words were "what have I done". We lucked out having already know Dave (Mr. Nell). Tim and I were both beyond impressed with his acting and dedication to the project.

[sean90291]

I think one has to be careful to distinguish story AMBIGUITY from story CONFUSION. Take that awesome, fun Schwarzenegger film "Total Recall". The ending is AMBIGUOUS. This is great, because you leave experience with questions: what is real, what really happened. And you debate it with your friends. It's not clear. BUT...there are two clear choices to choose from. That is, while the ending isn't clear, you have a choice between A or B. You don't have just a "what the frack happened" reaction. You argue for A or B. Thihs is artfully handled ambiguity. Same with a movie like "Vampire Kiss" starring Nick Cage (an old movie maybe not many have seen). In that film, Cage's character might be a vampire or he might be crazy. You just get the two choices. It's not wide open. So it's sorta artfully ambigious too. The danger with Cache is the ambiguity is not quite CONTROLLED. You haven't 100% guided your audience to the key questions. It's a question of taste for sure, also. The artier the film, the more "ambiguous" it can be. A full on art film can be totally meaningless except he meaning the audience chooses to give it. But Cache was trying to do something more than that, and it was almost really really successful.

As for the title...it's CONFUSING. I think it's too vague and removed from the subject matter of the film. I don't think you should have to explain why a film is called what it's called. I loved Soderbergh's "Bubble"...but it's a bit of stretch to guess why it's a called Bubble. Only he knows for sure I suppose.

[snodart]

I think one has to be careful to distinguish story AMBIGUITY from story CONFUSION. Take that awesome, fun Schwarzenegger film "Total Recall". The ending is AMBIGUOUS. This is great, because you leave experience with questions: what is real, what really happened. And you debate it with your friends. It's not clear. BUT...there are two clear choices to choose from. That is, while the ending isn't clear, you have a choice between A or B. You don't have just a "what the frack happened" reaction. You argue for A or B. Thihs is artfully handled ambiguity. Same with a movie like "Vampire Kiss" starring Nick Cage (an old movie maybe not many have seen). In that film, Cage's character might be a vampire or he might be crazy. You just get the two choices. It's not wide open. So it's sorta artfully ambigious too. The danger with Cache is the ambiguity is not quite CONTROLLED. You haven't 100% guided your audience to the key questions. It's a question of taste for sure, also. The artier the film, the more "ambiguous" it can be. A full on art film can be totally meaningless except he meaning the audience chooses to give it. But Cache was trying to do something more than that, and it was almost really really successful.

As for the title...it's CONFUSING. I think it's too vague and removed from the subject matter of the film. I don't think you should have to explain why a film is called what it's called. I loved Soderbergh's "Bubble"...but it's a bit of stretch to guess why it's a called Bubble. Only he knows for sure I suppose.


I had begun typing a long drawn out response to your comments as to our core goal, etc. Then I realized that from your great input, what I would really like to know is what Cache gave you.. or what did you get from the story... what did you think it was about. I think that knowing this might help the discussion a bit before I respond. I would be greatly appreciated if you have a chance.

Thanks

[sean90291]

I think I got what I think you intended. That the superhero was seeing things that foretold teh future. And that he happened to see that one man, a child molestor, was going to commit a crime. At the same time, he's seeing a therapist for possible "delusions." He's stopped taking medication (ie., maybe he's descending deeper into a psychotic state). But because of his own experiences in childhood, he can't NOT listen to his premonitions. He has to stop the man. And so, having believed in his own powers of premonition, he goes to the man's home and beats him to death. And then I'm not entirely sure...I think he perhaps thinks that he made a mistake. That maybe he is crazy after all, and not a superhero, and he just killed an innocent man based on his delusional state of mind. I think.

Just seems it's supposed to be a twist...but it's not clear.

I must add that your short film is really really well done in so many respects. I'm not just jerking your chain here. Everyone posting here seems impressed with what you accomplished, and so am I.

[snodart]

I think I got what I think you intended. That the superhero was seeing things that foretold teh future. And that he happened to see that one man, a child molestor, was going to commit a crime. At the same time, he's seeing a therapist for possible "delusions." He's stopped taking medication (ie., maybe he's descending deeper into a psychotic state). But because of his own experiences in childhood, he can't NOT listen to his premonitions. He has to stop the man. And so, having believed in his own powers of premonition, he goes to the man's home and beats him to death. And then I'm not entirely sure...I think he perhaps thinks that he made a mistake. That maybe he is crazy after all, and not a superhero, and he just killed an innocent man based on his delusional state of mind. I think.

Just seems it's supposed to be a twist...but it's not clear.

I must add that your short film is really really well done in so many respects. I'm not just jerking your chain here. Everyone posting here seems impressed with what you accomplished, and so am I.

Great info, thank you. I didn't get that you were jerking my chain at all. I was just curious to hear how the story came across to you. Your take on the story might as well be a quote from my notes from when I was writing it with Tim. The end is not meant to be a twist. Twists seem to be pretty common in shorts, so maybe some people were looking for it. We did not want it to be a twist at all, in fact we were avoiding it to some degree. At any rate, your input has been great. I would agree that there are probably ways that Cache could have been tweaked, bent, and tunned to make the story more powerful for some. To be honest though, because this is our first true production, our ability may have simply limited us from doing so. From all the great feedback we will be able to take the new information and ideas with us as we venture into HorroFest. So, it is truly appreciated.

[Matthew B. Moore]

Just watched it again. I'm trying to make up my mind.

Dude, it was far better the 2nd time. The questions I had from the first viewing kind of melted away. I have my own interperitations, but damn it, it is fun to watch.

There are a couple of others to consider, but I think you have taken this one, in my opinion.

Keep kicking ass. Do you have more stuff that can be seen on-line? If not, I'll trade you DVD for DVD - either Redneck Samurai or CPU.

[sean90291]

Great info, thank you. I didn't get that you were jerking my chain at all. I was just curious to hear how the story came across to you. Your take on the story might as well be a quote from my notes from when I was writing it with Tim. The end is not meant to be a twist. Twists seem to be pretty common in shorts, so maybe some people were looking for it. We did not want it to be a twist at all, in fact we were avoiding it to some degree. At any rate, your input has been great. I would agree that there are probably ways that Cache could have been tweaked, bent, and tunned to make the story more powerful for some. To be honest though, because this is our first true production, our ability may have simply limited us from doing so. From all the great feedback we will be able to take the new information and ideas with us as we venture into HorroFest. So, it is truly appreciated.

I guess most directors hire poor, abused writers to do those very intangible things like nail a story. Once it's nailed, of course, it seems perfectly obvious to everyone and you can just get rid of the writer altogether, at the bottom of a deep pit. ;-)

[snodart]

Just watched it again. I'm trying to make up my mind.

Dude, it was far better the 2nd time. The questions I had from the first viewing kind of melted away. I have my own interperitations, but damn it, it is fun to watch.

There are a couple of others to consider, but I think you have taken this one, in my opinion.

Keep kicking ass. Do you have more stuff that can be seen on-line? If not, I'll trade you DVD for DVD - either Redneck Samurai or CPU.

Thanks for giving it a second look. We don't have much else other than Cache since this was our first "real" short. Everything else that we have done up to this point has been tests and for the sake of practice. HeroFest really kicked us into gear and gave us something to shoot for. My website (http://snodart.com/) has some random tests clips in the filmmaking section, but slowly we (Tim and I) plan to replace them all with more substantial work. For now, we are going to work on HorroFest and just keep pressing on.

Swaping DVD's sounds great. Ours won't have any perks like BTS, but I would love to have a copy of CPU. I haven't seen Redneck Samurai, so maybe I can get it next swap.
:)

Tim and I agreed that for HorrorFest we will probably try and get somebody to film the making of and to grab some stills as well. I wish we would have done it for Cache. If anything, it would be fun for us to edit and watch.



I guess most directors hire poor, abused writers to do those very intangible things like nail a story. Once it's nailed, of course, it seems perfectly obvious to everyone and you can just get rid of the writer altogether, at the bottom of a deep pit. ;-)


lol. probably very true.

[spidey]

The movie is all goodness.

[Larry Rutledge]

The movie is all goodness.

Wow! To get that comment from Spidey, and on your first true production no less, that is a major accomlishment. And I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiment. Truely a fantastic work of art!! :thumbsup:

[conrad_johnson]

Very good, all around.

Nice lighting and camera work. Great acting - exceptional among all the other entries.

I liked your approach to a superhero story. I expected something else to happen at the end though - another scene to wrap things up better. Were you planning on doing something else with the ending?

Sorry if this has already been addressed - 14 pages of posts are too many to go through in detail!

[snodart]

Spidey, Larry, and Conrad; thanks for taking a look and posting your comments.


I liked your approach to a superhero story. I expected something else to happen at the end though - another scene to wrap things up better. Were you planning on doing something else with the ending?

Sorry if this has already been addressed - 14 pages of posts are too many to go through in detail!

This has been discussed, but I wouldn't expect anybody to read through all the pages. I looked back and grabbed this from what I said earlier. I think it pretty much sums it up. BTW, the ending is as we wanted it to be. We did have to trim some to fit it all into 6 minutes, but the ending has the same feel in both versions.



With the story, the idea was to put the viewer on the side of Mr. Nell while at the same time allowing for the shock of the attack to exist. By the way, I'm not attempting to justify what we did, but just explaining our goal with the story. I (I say "I" because theloniusjones may have a other points to make) didn't want people to walk away from this with a feeling of victory, but with a pit in their stomach. I wanted the viewer to be okay with Mr. Nell seeking out the pedophile and let them assume that it would play out as a typical hollywood style battle. The thing Disney is great for.

Example:
The hero and villain are fighting the end battle... the villain slips and is hanging by fingertips from the ledge... the hero, being good, tries to pull the villain up... the villain tries to take advantage of this by attacking the Hero, but causes himself to fall.

So with this example good wins but not by killing. The villain is the cause of his own death. Most all Disney movies work this way as well as many blockbuster type movies. I think this is great and even necessary (homage to Joseph Campbell).
The goal with Cache was to lead the viewer in this direction, but to force them to think about it in terms of reality. Though it would be ideal, most actual events don't play out with an all is well feeling at the end. This is the idea we wanted to explore with Cache. With Mr. Nell's unexpectedly brutal attack on the pedophile, I wanted the viewer to say something like: "I wanted him to get that guy, but not like that, damn". So in a way, I wanted to effect the viewer in such a way that they might be forced to take a closer look at how they view such events (in reality vs. hollywood). My wife is a forensic pediatrician and deals with child abuse cases. I told her once that I would have no problem beating the life out of a child abuser. Later though, when I really thought deeply about what I had said and tried to imagine what it would be like to do such a thing.... I ended up with a pit in my stomach.

[concannon]

Good luck gents...

[Cryogenic Filmworks]

I was impressed by this. Did not see anything unpro. You had good camera, lighting, sound, music, acting. I couldn't find anything wrong. Great job.

[snodart]

I was impressed by this. Did not see anything unpro. You had good camera, lighting, sound, music, acting. I couldn't find anything wrong. Great job.

Not sure what to say other than "Wow" and "thank you!"

[hemichic]

I'm new to the boards, but not to film work. I enjoyed the simplicity with which you told your story. I like that you didn't fill in all the blanks by the end; your choice was to give the audience credit that they are smart enough to fill in their own blanks, whatever they may be. Sometimes tidiness is not required in every story.

Nice short.

[snodart]

I'm new to the boards, but not to film work. I enjoyed the simplicity with which you told your story. I like that you didn't fill in all the blanks by the end; your choice was to give the audience credit that they are smart enough to fill in their own blanks, whatever they may be. Sometimes tidiness is not required in every story.

Nice short.

Well said hemichic. Thanks for the input and welcome to the boards.

[snodart]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to view Cache. Also thanks for all of the great feedback. And a big congrats to everybody that stuck it out and uploaded their entry.

Cache is now up on my website for those interested.

http://snodart.com/cache/index.htm

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

hey dude ... as per tradition I gotta start winners thread to be stickeyed in the herofest section ... I post with a link to my film, then you post, then conrad, etc. ... I'll try to do that here in a few this morning

congrats again ... much deserved ...

Jack