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View Full Version : Will you the 5-6 minute mark effect your judging?



Norm Sanders
05-15-2006, 02:36 PM
Perhaps this is inappropriate to ask, but I'm not asking about certain elements of our film ... I'm simply wondering if people will judge a film more poorly because it went over the initial 5 minute maximum limit that was set, but has now become soft per Jarred's post a week or two ago.

We're now allowed to go up to 6 minutes, with 5 minutes as the ideal. For our film, which is 20+ minutes, getting a 5 minute cut that didn't come off as a trailer is nearly impossible. To make sense, and of course have more impact, I'm JUST under the 6 minute mark. I want to leave it as is, but if people will be judging more favorably those films that stayed at 5 minutes or less, then I'll bite the bullet & pull some more guts out of ours.

So again, it may be inappropriate to ask, but I'm sure I'm not the only filmmaker with the same thoughts/questions.

Beat Takeshi
05-15-2006, 02:48 PM
Im heading toward the 6 minute mark myself but Im going to vote against every over 5 minute film. ;)

JK.

Larry Rutledge
05-15-2006, 03:11 PM
I'm ok with it going to 6 minutes...especially since the rule maker (Jarred) said 6 minutes is fine.

BTW, aren't you supposed to be on an airplane Norm?

Norm Sanders
05-15-2006, 03:43 PM
Yeah, my wife's not too pleased I'm still on the computer ... heading out VERY shortly, with still a couple of trips to make & get the files online for the composer!

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-15-2006, 03:43 PM
Norm I reall think this one would be less of an issue if we didn't talk about so much as a potential issue.

Rulemaker said OK with plenty of time for people to take advantage of it.

Not the same thing as one film accidentally showing at 40 seconds over last contest at all.

My take is the minute is there.

Taking advantage of it when you don't need because you think your film is cool and cant bring yourself to cut anything = bad filmmaking.

Hurting your film by making it less clear or feeling rushed = bad filmmaking.

By wedging your film into 5 minutes you may not offend the very few (and I think it will be quite few) that say hey I didn't know about that no fair (even though its was posted in the rules thread) or that wasn't on the first page and I just decided to do this.

I'm past worrying about this. My film's edit has gone from 6:04 to 5:55 and I will conntinue to trim. BUt no way I'm twisting my film into a pretzel to get it in under 5 minutes. I'm trimming to make a better movie.

So you can go to strategies
1 Make the best movie you can to "try and win"
2 follow a rule that's no longer a rule in order to not piss people off to "try and win"

If you are lucky then stategy 1 and 2 are the same for you, but I would (and will) err towards #1 over #2, personally.

OF course now that you've put the 1000 pound gorilla in the middle of the room so we have to talk about it, you've announced in another thread that you have gotten your film just under the 5 minute mark
:kali::badputer:

cunning strategy :evil:

Brandon Rice
05-15-2006, 03:51 PM
Make it as long as you want (under 6 min.) of course... and if it rocks, it rocks... no time thing is going to affect my vote.

Aaron Marshall
05-15-2006, 04:18 PM
I'm probably the first one finished with a Hero film. My edit was finished when Jarred announced that it could be beyond 5 minutes. I recut my film and now it's around 5:20 or something like that (it really needed it). If anyone should be bothered it's guys like me that followed the what seemed to be a strict rule of 5 mins. I'm not at all. I was happy. Most people, at the time of announcement weren't even close to a rough cut, let alone a final cut.

I don't see why anyone would be that petty to vote against a great film if it runs over 5 mins.

I voted for, "Quality is what matters most, not the length.". That's what my girlfriend says :grin:.

I'd rather watch a Macgregorish (awesome) 6 min film than a retarded and boring 5 min one. I'll be voting on artistic merit, not length.

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-15-2006, 04:23 PM
Yeah ... the only issue may be people that aren't subscribed to the thread or are just making their films and go now to check the first page of the thread and only the first page.


I may go on a personal PM campaign and PM everyone Brandon has listed as participating :cheesy:

Brandon Rice
05-15-2006, 04:26 PM
wow... a PM campaign... good idea... to alert them that the rules have been tweaked a bit... or maybe a nice BIG FONT announcement thread would do...

Beat Takeshi
05-15-2006, 04:26 PM
I don't see why anyone would be that petty to vote against a great film if it runs over 5 mins.


Just in case this was for me, I was joking. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Aaron Marshall
05-15-2006, 05:46 PM
Just in case this was for me, I was joking. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

I wasn't directing anything toward you in any way at all. I didn't even read your earlier post until just now. It was just a random thought.

Beat Takeshi
05-15-2006, 06:02 PM
:love4:

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-15-2006, 06:21 PM
get a room.

Anthem78
05-15-2006, 07:19 PM
I agree with Jack. Quality is what matters. If you have a great film and its under 6 minutes, that's all I care about.

david jerome
05-15-2006, 09:08 PM
I'm glad I read this. I really needed the six minutes.

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-15-2006, 09:24 PM
that does it ... I'm sending PM's :thumbsup:

Larry Rutledge
05-16-2006, 12:28 PM
Norm, are you on again? I thought you were on vacation? I can just imagine your wife standing a few feet behind you, with her arms folded across her chest and her foot tapping loudly, as she periodically looks over at you madly typing away at the computer, and occasionally sighing, loudly! :grin:

Go relax...

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-16-2006, 12:58 PM
I PMed everyone on Briceman's list from the "Who's in thread" so at least those folks know for sure. :thumbsup:

Mike McNeese
05-16-2006, 01:09 PM
I'm glad I read this. I really needed the six minutes.

I think I might actually think a little less of some movies that go way over 5:00. Why? Because we worked out butts off to make a decent movie that's under 5:00. I'm not upset that the rule changed...that's fine. Rules are rules, no matter what. But, from the day that this Fest was announced me and my writer were working with the constant trouble of trying to fit a decent story in 5:00. 6:00 would have made it a whole lot easier, but we succeeded in keeping it under 5:00, so I'm going to take pride in that.

So, if someone comes in with a movie that's 5:15 with credits, I won't think about docking them. But if people are going generously over 5:00, I will consider that they didn't properly plan and produce according to the rules that I was playing by. I don't know that I would dock them, necessarily, but I may consider it...I don't know. I've not judged in this Fest before.

2

arielman
05-16-2006, 02:37 PM
6 minutes is OK with me
Ian

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-16-2006, 03:00 PM
I think I might actually think a little less of some movies that go way over 5:00. Why? Because we worked out butts off to make a decent movie that's under 5:00. I'm not upset that the rule changed...that's fine. Rules are rules, no matter what. But, from the day that this Fest was announced me and my writer were working with the constant trouble of trying to fit a decent story in 5:00. 6:00 would have made it a whole lot easier, but we succeeded in keeping it under 5:00, so I'm going to take pride in that.

So, if someone comes in with a movie that's 5:15 with credits, I won't think about docking them. But if people are going generously over 5:00, I will consider that they didn't properly plan and produce according to the rules that I was playing by. I don't know that I would dock them, necessarily, but I may consider it...I don't know. I've not judged in this Fest before.

2
My script is just over 4 pages.
My movie plays much better at 5 minutes plus.

Prettty crappy planning with that properly formatted 4 and change pages screenplay, huh? :laugh:

EDIT: Don't mean to attack. Part of bringing a film to life obviously occurs in editing, where you reconsile the movie you saw in your head and how the movie itself has or is evolving into something with a life of its own. If you are editing TV commercials, then sure hack the soul out of that sucker. But if your movie lives and breathes better with another 45 seconds on it, now we have that time and it should be used.

Would you rather beat a movie when its 75% as good as I the filmmaker could make it while adhering to a rule that's no longer applicable.

or

Would you rather beat a movie when its 100% presented in its best light and pwn the hell out of that sucker anyway.

If you have a 5 minute movie that's paced well and completely clear and all of the emotional and story telling beats land with full weight .... then kick ass ... good for you man ... and I mean that.

BUT

No reason to poop on people who decided to take the time which we are now allowed to take.

I think you'll feel better about winning the contest or placing above other films knowing that your votes were cast based on merit the merit of the film, not bean counting and from the small poll it seems like most people agree. :thumbsup:

Norm Sanders
05-16-2006, 03:58 PM
Wow, mjmcneese2, thanks for your honesty. You'll doc ours for sure then, as ours runs RIGHT to the 6 minutes. It's actually at 5:57, but I figured instead of just one frame for credits, since I was over, I may as well take the entire 6 minutes.

Just so you understand, I CAN get this to 5 minutes ... shoot, I can get it to 60 seconds ... but it'd just be a scene, or even at the 5 minutes, it would lose too much & not make sense.

This is my third festival. The first one I set out with writing a story specifically to the 5 minute mark & achieved it. It was okay. The second attempt, where I partnered with 235 Studios, we decided we'd make a longer film, not worry about the time limit, and then cut down a festival version, which for that festival the time had been increased (from the very beginning) to 6 minutes. Our total film was only about 8.5 minutes, and that's with ending credits.

For this third film, we really wanted to make something more of it. My reasoning for doing these shorts is not just for the contest, but to grow as a film maker; with the objective to eventually make features. I sincerly don't believe that 5-6 minute shorts will prepare me for a feature, so with this project we really stepped it up, and have ended up with a 20+ minute film. However, the festival is still the instigating reason of why we did the film, so we also want the festival-cut to do well in the contest.

Sorry to hear that we'll be scored lower by you because we're utilizing the extra time Jarred gave us, but since the majority is voting that the story/quality is what matters, I take solice in knowing I don't have to kill myself & butcher the film further to fit within 5 minutes or less. So with that, this pole was a success for my purposes ... just looking for peace of mind.

Oh, and for those wondering (LARRY!) :) I am relaxing ... wife's taking a nap, and I'm staring at gorgeous emerald green water & sandy beaches right now as I type this. God bless Wi-Fi!!

Larry Rutledge
05-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Oh, and for those wondering (LARRY!) :) I am relaxing ... wife's taking a nap, and I'm staring at gorgeous emerald green water & sandy beaches right now as I type this. God bless Wi-Fi!!

Sorry, but for me relaxing would start with disconnecting the Wi-Fi!! But at least you are on while she's napping :) Have fun...and tell her thanks for letting you come out to play! :grin:

Norm Sanders
05-16-2006, 04:11 PM
Ahem, if I forward your thanks, then she'll KNOW I logged on. She's sleeping, why ruin it! :)

Aaron Marshall
05-16-2006, 04:56 PM
Would you rather beat a movie when its 75% as good as I the filmmaker could make it while adhering to a rule that's no longer applicable.

or

Would you rather beat a movie when its 100% presented in its best light and pwn the hell out of that sucker anyway.


That's a good way to look at it. I agree.

Back when the 5 min rule applied, my ending seemed rushed. I needed a little bit more time to resolve everything like I wanted to. I'd already squeezed and trimmed all the time out of the following scenes that I possibly could. It was just the ending that was impossible to do in under 5 mins. I made the ending as tight as a could extending it about 15 seconds or so. The final edit is 5:20.

mjmcneese2 - I get what you're saying. Trust me. I feel your pain. It doesn't seem fair that people who were behind get an advantage.

Here's my way of thinking. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and rocks, no deduction whatsoever. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and sucks; it's probably going to get a worse score just because I had to sit through an extra minute of crap.

:grin:

But... I won't have a preconceived notion that the film is going to be good or bad based on its length. I'll grade according to quality.

Texture
05-16-2006, 07:01 PM
In reality, the only people who are going to criticize your film for being too long are TV execs trying to cram more advertising into one hour at the cost of destroying the quality of the programing.

Luckly there are none of those bastards around here, but be forwarned, the more successful you become, the more you will have to negotiate and compromise with these types...

Daniel Skubal
05-16-2006, 10:42 PM
I like the extra time if it does justice to the film, much like what other people are saying. My issue right now is the < 2 week deadline, and although that is the soft deadline, another 2 weeks after that deadline would be a true lifesaver. We're finishing shooting this saturday, we have at least a week's worth of fx to put in plus another 2 days editing plus another week of scoring. I may just put together a montage of what we have going for the fest because I've put way too much time into this thing to rush the final product out. we'll see.

Mike McNeese
05-16-2006, 10:50 PM
mjmcneese2 - I get what you're saying. Trust me. I feel your pain. It doesn't seem fair that people who were behind get an advantage.

No pain, no unfairness! I just saw a thread about the 5-6 minute issue and I gave my 2. I never said I WILL dock a movie. But, understand that I wasn't relieved when the extra minute was announced...I was relieved when I trimmed my rough cut down to 4:55.


Would you rather beat a movie when its 100% presented in its best light and pwn the hell out of that sucker anyway. No reason to poop on people who decided to take the time which we are now allowed to take.

Completely agree, Jack. I wanna see all of these movies at their fullest potential within the rules. The rules changed, and I respect the new rule as THE rule.


Here's my way of thinking. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and rocks, no deduction whatsoever. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and sucks; it's probably going to get a worse score just because I had to sit through an extra minute of crap.

Exactly. If you're 5:57 movie is awesome, it's awesome. But, if you're 5:57 movie wasted an extra minute of my life...

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-16-2006, 10:59 PM
Completely agree, Jack. I wanna see all of these movies at their fullest potential within the rules. The rules changed, and I respect the new rule as THE rule.

At least we are all takling about it
B
4
http://www.sito.org/synergy/panic/exchange/hand-uwi.jpg

thanks to mine and Norm's diliegence :cheesy: .. we rock!

...
I've been looking at editing in a new way (not just for this film but in general) and I'm tweaking my edit now ... watch me be the biggest asshat of all and get my film under five minutes :)


Here's my way of thinking. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and rocks, no deduction whatsoever. If I see a film that is 6 mins long and sucks; it's probably going to get a worse score just because I had to sit through an extra minute of crap.


LOL ... EXACTLY :thumbsup:

In a way the extra minute will be a good litmus test as to whether a person has a clue as to how to tell a story and if they have a sens of their own filmmaking abilities or lack thereof.

Brandon Rice
05-16-2006, 11:09 PM
Well.... even though I don't have an entry, I am happy an extra minute was granted. I know that difficulty in cramming a short into 5-6 minutes... usually in most cases, a little more time never hurt... everything will be judged on its own though :) good luck to you all!

WilderWorks
05-22-2006, 12:17 PM
It seems to me that everyone has been notified well in advance of the shift toward six minutes -- so why would we mark against someone for taking advantage of that change? I don't think people were voting in favor of movies that were extra short in the past, why start now? I mean, we don't even have all the prizes announced, it's not quite a last-minute change.

Jack Daniel Stanley
05-22-2006, 01:48 PM
Das wha I'm sprayin'
Nah wha I sayin' ?

Matt Sconce
05-22-2006, 03:36 PM
I think in the future, the time that is announced should stay the time, becuase it is a bit unfair to those who got going on their project immediately and finished before the change, because they lose a minute of possible story that others will now have. On the other hand...
I don't think it will affect the vote. I know we did not know about the change and wrapped our timecode just under five minutes. But, now that I think about it, I do not think a longer time would have helped our story. Also, I would never punish a film maker for following rules. The 6 minute time limit is a rule so it is totally legit to go to that time. Spite should not exist in the world of film...it is in so many other places already. I for one will not penalize a movie based on time, unless it goes over the now given deadline.

Mike McNeese
05-22-2006, 07:02 PM
I think in the future, the time that is announced should stay the time, becuase it is a bit unfair

I wouldn't say it's unfair...rules is rules. Thing is, we had our script written three days after the announcement of the 5:00 limit. It took us another two weeks to try to cut it to fit in 5:00. I was a little down when they changed it to 6:00, but no matter how well we do in the fest, I'll leave with a little pride that we actually did keep it under 5:00 - that was tough!!!

Matt Sconce
05-22-2006, 07:22 PM
indeed. :)

Jarred Land
05-22-2006, 07:48 PM
This film festival is not about rules and fees and other political crap, This festival is about our community getting out there and shooting films. Bottom line.

conrad_johnson
05-22-2006, 08:21 PM
Word.

Beat Takeshi
05-22-2006, 08:52 PM
and thats exactly what it has been for me. I created 3 shorts I probably would have never made because of this little fest. I never tried to win anything in these, I just wanted to have the motivation to get off my ass and create some art. I may not enter the next one because of an operation on my hip but I sure as hell am going to miss it and will be watching from the sidelines.

Jarred Land
05-22-2006, 08:55 PM
ha ha you got it Aram..

Its very easy to get into spending 4 hours a day on dvxuser and learning tons of things, and accumilating a ton of gear and not actually doing anything, and lots of people cant just go out and get hired for a film, so I thought it was a good way to get people to use what they learn and the gear they have and actually put it to use.

Brandon Rice
05-22-2006, 08:55 PM
Word! My sci-fest short has propelled me to even bigger ambitions and projects!

Jared Meyer
05-22-2006, 11:27 PM
ha ha you got it Aram..

Its very easy to get into spending 4 hours a day on dvxuser and learning tons of things, and accumilating a ton of gear and not actually doing anything, and lots of people cant just go out and get hired for a film, so I thought it was a good way to get people to use what they learn and the gear they have and actually put it to use.

And THAT is why Jarred is the MAN. :beer:

Jarred Land
05-22-2006, 11:55 PM
ha ha ha.. thanks dude.

Brandon Rice
05-22-2006, 11:59 PM
Yeah, Jarred is and always shall be... the MAN. :)

Can't wait for this fest everyone! I've been so preoccupied with this huge summer project, but I really am looking forward to all of the films!

MiataFilmSomething
05-23-2006, 06:28 AM
I wouldn't say it's unfair...rules is rules. Thing is, we had our script written three days after the announcement of the 5:00 limit. It took us another two weeks to try to cut it to fit in 5:00. I was a little down when they changed it to 6:00, but no matter how well we do in the fest, I'll leave with a little pride that we actually did keep it under 5:00 - that was tough!!!





Wow, only three days? You must have one heck of a screenwriter... However, the script means nothing without a good execution, so you totally rock in that department!:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Mike McNeese
05-23-2006, 06:56 AM
Its very easy to get into spending 4 hours a day on dvxuser

Four hours? Who are these slackers?

Brandon Rice
05-23-2006, 09:16 AM
HAHA!!! I think I probably spend like 2 to 3 a day on dvxuser.

Matt Sconce
05-23-2006, 01:07 PM
I spend so much time here too! I can credit DVXuser for being my Film Education. It started me with camera selection (DVX100b), has an amazing group of people that help out "newbies" like me. And has amazing Film Fests, that make me do something instead of merely dream. I am meeting with another film maker here in Fresno this Wednesday to show him what a DVX100b can do, and the amazing resource of DVXuser.com.........He will then be as addicted as me, buy a DVX and begin to make amazing things! *Mad Scientist laugh* Muah Ha ha!
Seriously though, I am looking forward to seeing the awesome things you guys make for Hero Fest, and looking forward to seeing my movie in the list.