Avid or Final Cut (after NAB)

[Niels Neeskens]

Hey guys,

I've read a lot of discussions on this site about whether to work on avid or final cut pro for HD editing. It seems a lot of you are in favor of Final Cut and are really extreem against Avid. I have to make a choice in one week whether to go for a editing system to work with footage of the HVX with Final Cut Pro or with Avid. I made my choice before (mainly because of reading this site a lot) and wanted to go for G5 system with Final Cut Studio, but reading the developments at the NAB this year I am in doubt again and could really need your help. At the NAB Avid came out stronger then Final Cut, so is it better (for future reasons) to go for that. I am a HVX Pall user.
Thanx in advance.

Greetings Niels

[xray]

720/25P is something you can not edit with the Apple. If you own the HVX200 PAL you can not use the up- and undercranck, or progressive HD. You can shoot it, but you can't edit it or use it. If someone knows the way out, please help.

[eLeventy]

Go Avid. The new full screen DVI output option( allright, copied from FCP...) fixes the one thing missing from Avid XpressProHD: a better way to see your footage. It's not broadcast quality, but it should be A LOT better than the little preview window. Before this, the only way to see your HD footage was on a AdrenalineHD, which is $$$.

[jeffyjones]

After years of screwing around with Avid Xpress Pro, with new versions every month, errors constantly, and their ridiculous "approved" hardware nonsense, I left for FCP on a MacBook. Best decision I've ever made. It's not even the stability issues really, as much as the UI for FCP is so much more intuitive. And it doesn't require a !@%&* dongle!

[John Rivers]

Here's my theory:

Avid is more mainstream and widely used, but largely because it's been around longer, so production companies or news-stations who need to upgrade are financially better off sticking with software that works with their hardware.

Final Cut entered the game a bit later, and many had already jumped board with Avid.

However, many people who I've spoken with (and myself included) feel that while both programs are good, prefer Final Cut Pro.

So, my advice? Get yourself an intel or G5 Mac (with the Intel Macs you have the option of running Windows natively if you ever needed to, and they run VERY fast using programs optimized to use the Intel chipset, or "Universal" apps). This will give you the option of running either Final Cut Pro OR Avid if you like, but my advice would be to jump on the Final Cut Studio.

Avid may have come out stronger at this year's NAB, but I'd be surprised if Apple didn't have something up their sleeve.

As for Intel-Mac computer recommendations: I think that new MacBook 17" is pretty sweet. :)

[Brandon Rice]

I'd go with Avid. I started out editing on an Avid Xpress DV system, and now edit on an Xpress Pro HD system. I LOVE it! FAST FAST FAST editing!

[Niels Neeskens]

A big thanx to you all. I always worked on Avid Express DV as well and never had problems with it. I am really thinking about running the Avid media composer or Xpress Pro HD on a Intell Mac like John Rivers said. That way a get the best of both ways probably (fast computer and good HVX support with Avid).

Thanx again

[Cut2muz]

I know it's late to this thread but I'd like to throw my thoughts into the mix. I'm an editor professionally and have been since 1979. Old as dirt but very immature. I've used nearly ever edit system that's come along and even some that were never released to the public. I bought one of the very first Avids delivered to the LA market. I've been using FCP since V2 and own several systems of both for our company's use and for rentals. In the end, Avid wins. I'm not talking about the Express products as I've never thought much of them and in fact don't really consider them Avids as I know it. But with the release of the Media Composer software it gets much closer to affordability than it has been in the past. FCP does some really nice things but I cannot depend on it when the delivery schedule is tight, especially for long-forms. I have am FCP system on steroids and built one for the Nascar season and it's still there, but it is all short form stuff. I ALWAYS have problems getting the full long sequences to play out without problems in FCP. It always pushes me against the wall and though I've not missed a devilvery, I've not slept either. It also does not have basic tools that Avid has like dirt/scratch removal, good tracking, powerful on-board titler, good audio and other things that bug me. But it is fast and the effects available on each edit is very cool. To outfit a FCP system to closely match an Avid, I've spent 20k or so. The Avids have cost more but now that the Media Composer software is available, I think one could spend about the same and get a more dependable system. I still have faith in FCP and will continue to use it but the longevity of Avid is a plus. I have wanted to throw my Avids out of an airplane many times but the frustration caused by FCP has been constant and Apple just doesn't hear or seem to care. Anyway, my 2 cents.

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com

[DavidBeier]

Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.0 was a piece of crap and buggy as hell. Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.23 however runs perfectly and I love it. Avid my be a bit more difficult to learn than FCP but it's the industry standard. It also has better media managment and color correction tools. The real joy of Avid however is that it's scaleible. If you edit something on your little Xpress Pro you can easily cart it over to a Adrenaline or even Symphony for a day to finish and take advantage of the higher end effects.

[Brandon Rice]

The real joy of Avid however is that it's scaleible. If you edit something on your little Xpress Pro you can easily cart it over to a Adrenaline or even Symphony for a day to finish and take advantage of the higher end effects.

Exactly! And, I know how to edit on the higher end systems, because they are all the same interface!

[xray]

I was talking about progressive HD editing in PAL on a Mac. As far as I know there is no way to edit DVCPROHD 720/25pn or 720/50p. So you can not use the under- over cranking. (other then copying P2 back to DV on tape).

You can edit 1080i, not progressive.

[puredrifting]

It also does not have basic tools that Avid has like dirt/scratch removal,
Which AVIDs come with a dirt/scratch removal tool?

good tracking,
You can't be serious...Yes, our Nitris Symphony has better tracking ability than FCP but at 100 times the cost, it had better have some things that are better.


powerful on-board titler,
Sorry, Livetype isn't on-board but it makes AVID's title tool look like a joke, mate...


good audio
Good audio? What does that mean? The sound quality between AVID and FCP are identical and FCP has a MUCH better audio mixer with keyframing.


and other things that bug me.
Fair enough, it has lots of things that bug me too. I own an FCP system but produce all of my work at a company that has 10 AVIDs so I live and breathe both systems every day. AVID is good, more stable than FCP, better media management. FCP has a superior overall media workflow for compositing, sound, graphics, compression, etc. FCP is easier to learn and more flexible. Both systems have their pluses and minuses but I do like to see at least fair comparisons.

Best,

Dan

Don Wilson
AmericanaMediaInc.com


Yeah, yeah, yeah...

[JohanDay]

You can edit 1080i, not progressive.

Actually it was posted in this forum (thanks) I tried and it's seem working. Just put to Sequence setting/Field Dominance/none and you can edit 1080P/25P in FCP.

But not 720P/25P/PN :badputer: what for I'm thinking to buy PC and Edius. Do any one know any other software what supports PAL 720P/25PN, for :kali: Mac none?

[Paul Llewellyn]

I'd like to hear from people that have gone the raylight way for editing 720/25pn with AVID.

[electricpig]

Thanks for the 1080 25P tip.

Wow, I've just doubled the HD formats I can now bring on and edit on my Mac.
This is good news, and heady times...

I think we should all picket infront of Cupertino untill Apple get the 720 25P and 25PN stuff you NTSC guys have been able to play around with and has become an important tool in the box.

I'm feeling very abandened in PAL land with the HVX. But we do get a free Kata camera bag and spare battery when we register, so it's not all bad.
Can we not get a petition or something going, or is it all to be revealed with FCP 5.5?

Can ears of contacts be bent? Barry, Jared, Jan, could you lend a push for PAL support with FCP?

It's great to have bena prepared to include PAL support for the DVRack. A relief infact, so thankyou to him.


dreaming of 50fps...

mike.connolly

[jeffyjones]

The only thing I don't like about FCP that Avid does better is media management, and that's not a deal breaker.

I haven't seen any real quantifiable reasons here or in any other topic that make FCP not suitable. For me, I had so many issues with Avid that I had to let it go. And for the record, I'm not interested in comparing a $20k Avid system with my MacBook and FCP.

[Niels Neeskens]

Ok, still confused about what to choose, this is a really difficult topic! Anybody an idea how long I have to wait for a Power Mac on intel chip, or is the new Macbook Pro good enough to run either Avid or Final Cut Pro on and work with high definition?

[John Rivers]

my guess would be a couple of months, when Intel releases there next super processors.

Will the MacBook Pro run as quickly as a full blown desktop? Well, that's never the case. But look at it this way: there are many out there, including myself, who edit on laptops (or even desktops) FAR less powerful or speedy than the new Intel Macbooks, and we get along fine. And from what I've seen, the Macbooks are VERY fast. The specs alone easily qualify it as being able to run some pretty high end stuff.

Plus, you get the added bonus of being able to edit wherever you like. As much as I love power and speed, I can sacrifice some speed for freedom (and I get too ansy if I have to sit in one spot too long anyway!) :)

[Cees Mutsaers]

is the macbookpro 17" introduced at the NAB?

Here's my theory:

Avid is more mainstream and widely used, but largely because it's been around longer, so production companies or news-stations who need to upgrade are financially better off sticking with software that works with their hardware.

Final Cut entered the game a bit later, and many had already jumped board with Avid.

However, many people who I've spoken with (and myself included) feel that while both programs are good, prefer Final Cut Pro.

So, my advice? Get yourself an intel or G5 Mac (with the Intel Macs you have the option of running Windows natively if you ever needed to, and they run VERY fast using programs optimized to use the Intel chipset, or "Universal" apps). This will give you the option of running either Final Cut Pro OR Avid if you like, but my advice would be to jump on the Final Cut Studio.

Avid may have come out stronger at this year's NAB, but I'd be surprised if Apple didn't have something up their sleeve.

As for Intel-Mac computer recommendations: I think that new MacBook 17" is pretty sweet. :)

[Cees Mutsaers]

Does Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.23 support all the format of the HVX200 (so also 720p)?



Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.0 was a piece of crap and buggy as hell. Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.23 however runs perfectly and I love it. Avid my be a bit more difficult to learn than FCP but it's the industry standard. It also has better media managment and color correction tools. The real joy of Avid however is that it's scaleible. If you edit something on your little Xpress Pro you can easily cart it over to a Adrenaline or even Symphony for a day to finish and take advantage of the higher end effects.

[Niels Neeskens]

Really good point there John Rivers, thanx for that! You convinced me and I am going for the Macbook Pro and Final Cut Studio next week. Besides the freedom to work wherever you want there is a cost benefit. For 2875 I have a keyboard, computer screen etc. and when I buy a G5 I only get the computer and I have to buy a screen etc. For a beginning production company as mine that saves me a lot of money and I can work on the road.
What kind of extra equipments do you have for editing on a laptop to compensate not working on a desktop? I was thinking in terms of more storing abilities etc.?

Niels

[JWS]

Brandon, what is the difference bettween Avid express dv and Avis express 4.0?
4.0 is a bit cheaper, what does it lack?
thanks in advance
-JWS

[Bokes]

what is a good reason to go with media composer software over Express pro?
is it worth the extra $$$?

[carlone]

Secondary color correction, way more video resolutions (pretty much every resolution), More editing tools and options, 16 bit effects, HD, SD or DV in the timeline real-time (no rendering) to name a few.

[Brandon Rice]

Secondary color correction

The MAIN reason I really want it.

[RDykmans]

The complete UB version of Final Cut Studio for $199.00 if you own any previous version of FCP???

That's tough to beat!

I went from an old Media 100 system to FCP and have always been happy with it.

[J P]

Can someone explain why Avid does a better job at MEDIA MANAGEMENT. Can you not make bins in Final Cut?

[Niels Neeskens]

Yes you can! I don't know what the difference is, but I have no problem with the media management of FCP. Someone else?

[puredrifting]

Hi Guys:

The deal with FCP and media management is that the Media Manager Tool in FCP is unreliable and does not function logically or consistently. It never has. It is especially weak in consolodating, if you want to dump all unused media.

AVID is definitely better than FCP at media management.

Apple can make FCP's media management better than AVIDs when they write all new code which is supposedly what FCP 6.0 will have in the near future.

If you work in an environment where you need to consolidate media often, AVID does it better. Other FCP weaknesses are that any speed changes in an FCP project DO NOT EVER translate accurately to other FCP systems. OTOH, FCP's overall project workflow is stronger with Motion, ST Pro, LiveType, DVD SP, etc. Love FCP but AVID does some things better. AVID is definitely more stable with long timelines.

Best,

Dan

[GeoMar]

One advantage Avid XpressPro has is that you are not stuck on a single platform.

geo.