HDX900 --- Why is no one talking about it?

[Sidney]

DVXers---

I am typically more a lurker on this board, than a poster --- but I am completely miffed as to why no one on this board is talking about Panasonic's newest camera that isn't even posted on their broadcast site yet. This camera seems to be what many (read: myself) are asking for --- a moderately affordable non-P2 non-HDV progressive HD tape based camera. So, why is no one talking about it?

--------------------------

Press Release:

Panasonic’s AJ-HDX900 DVCPRO HD Camcorder Provides Full 4:2:2 HD Production Quality And Format Versatility

* Features 2/3” 3-CCD, IEEE 1394, 50Hz/60Hz Shooting, Cine-Like Gamma

LAS VEGAS, NV (April 23, 2006) – Here at NAB, Panasonic unveils the AJ-HDX900 multi-format DVCPRO HD camcorder, placing full production-quality HD within reach of a wider range of budgets—measured in both dollars and euros! An indispensable, cost-effective tool for global content creators, the AJ-HDX900 DVCPRO HD camera records pristine 100Mbps HD images in any of eleven video formats, encompassing 60Hz and 50Hz production.

An advanced HD version of Panasonic’s highly-popular AJ-SDX900 DVCPRO50 Cinema™ camera, which is a mainstay of independent features, documentaries and reality television production, the AJ-HDX900 raises the bar with the addition of the well-established DVCPRO HD codec and a multi-format recording system that supports 1080 59.94i/50i/29.97p/25p/23.98p/23.98pA and 720 59.94p/50p/29.97p/25p/23.98p.The versatile camcorder will be an invaluable tool for digital cinematography, cable and television production in any format, sports and events, for globetrotting documentarians and feature crews, and for the rental companies that serve them.

The AJ-HDX900 features a native 16:9, 2/3” HD, 1-million pixel 3-CCD system that assures stunning images and produces a high sensitivity of F10 (at 2000 lux) and outstanding low-light shooting down to 0.032 lux (at+62 dB gain). It is equipped with 14-bit A/D DSP circuits that provide optimum picture quality, color reproduction and luminance gradation. Utilizing the advanced DVCPRO HD codec, the AJ-HDX900 offers superior 4:2:2 color sampling and independent frame compression. The well-balanced camcorder offers impressive built-in, image-enhancing features including three Cine-like gamma modes to replicate the look and feel of film. The AJ-HDX900 is compatible with a wide range 2/3” quality lenses and accessories

The AJ-HDX900’s IEEE 1394 digital output helps lower the cost of HD production by allowing nonlinear editing systems or other VTRs (such as Panasonic’s new AJ-HD1400) to capture DVCPRO HD native video with no loss of image quality. It also produces a backup copy by interfacing with an external device (VTR or Direct To EditTM (DTE) recorder) while recording.

The AJ-HDX900 uses DVCPRO HD-EX 9-micron recording to record 33 minutes on a DVCPRO medium-size cassette, and records 48kHz/16-bit digital audio on all four channels. The camera provides as standard a pre-recording function that permits it to capture spontaneous scenes a shooter might otherwise miss. A standard HD SDI output is included for monitoring and line recording, and a down converter is built-in to produce a SD output, eliminating the need for an expensive SDI monitor.

Other standard features include: two 4-position optical filters (ND: clear, ¼, 1/16, 1/64; CC: Cross, 3200K, 4300k and 6300K); four user scene files, three user-customized buttons; electronic shutter (1/100 to 1/2000 sec.) with synchro scan shutter (1/60.3 to 1/249.8 sec.); Remote Control Unit support; an easy-slide shoulder pad that adjusts 1.18” in 10-steps; and a 3-point locking viewfinder mount for precise adjustment.

The AJ-HDX900 will be available in July at a suggested list price of $26,500 (plus viewfinder).

[roxics]

Well that's a simple answer - RED - that's why.
RED is only $17,500 and offers a lot higher quality and a revolutionary design. The SI camera is also cheaper and will offer at least the same kind of quality.
If Panasonic released this new cam for $15,000 it would probably get more buzz here, but I know they probably can't because of the tape drive.

I mean it looks like a nice camera no doubt, but everyone here is focused on the new independent startups offerin g better cams at lower prices.

[HVXguy]

Red has a long way to go.....
Where are they going to build them....in the US?
There are no hardcore manufacturing facilities
like this in the US, unless Red plans on building one.
If they are going to handbuild then that opens the door for
many defects and slow delivery. I can see the owner over
in Japan or China trying to get this contracted...
Yeah right

[philnerd]

Red has a long way to go.....
Where are they going to build them....in the US?
There are no hardcore manufacturing facilities
like this in the US, unless Red plans on building one.
If they are going to handbuild then that opens the door for
many defects and slow delivery. I can see the owner over
in Japan or China trying to get this contracted...
Yeah right

I think the Oakley building has the manufucaturing capability. I imagine the CMOS sensors will be built by an outsource company.

[soarprod]

The HDX900 looks awesome and I'd love to see some footage from it but it is out of my price range and I am happy with my HVX :)

[tony404]

Well that's a simple answer - RED - that's why.
RED is only $17,500 and offers a lot higher quality and a revolutionary design. The SI camera is also cheaper and will offer at least the same kind of quality.
If Panasonic released this new cam for $15,000 it would probably get more buzz here, but I know they probably can't because of the tape drive.

I mean it looks like a nice camera no doubt, but everyone here is focused on the new independent startups offerin g better cams at lower prices.

Besides Red being basically vapor ware so far, your going to pay 17,500 for something where the company might not be around when servicing or warranty problems come up. I would stick with good ol panasonic they might not be flashy but they are solid.

[HVXguy]

I think the Oakley building has the manufucaturing capability. I imagine the CMOS sensors will be built by an outsource company.

Switching manufacturing from SunGlasses to the next generation Video Cameras should only cost 5 Billion???

Maybe Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are investors???

[Everdene]

Besides Red being basically vapor ware so far.

The term vaporware doesn't really apply. Just because the Red team is letting us in on the development doesn't mean they have missed any release dates or that they are announcing something that isn't going happen. If you don't see footage later this year (as they have promised) or a release by early next year, then you can start to call it vaporware. It's a bit annoying to have people dissing the Red team's generously opening up their development to us.

[DavidBeier]

Didn't we not see any actual footage from the HVX200 untill only a few months before it was released? Weren't all their demos just Varicam footage?

[tony404]

The term vaporware doesn't really apply. Just because the Red team is letting us in on the development doesn't mean they have missed any release dates or that they are announcing something that isn't going happen. If you don't see footage later this year (as they have promised) or a release by early next year, then you can start to call it vaporware. It's a bit annoying to have people dissing the Red team's generously opening up their development to us.
If they are starting to soliciting $1000 to be on the future buy list , its not generously lol.

[geo]

Red sounds phenominal. However, I'm not going to drop money on something years away in development. The camera is $17,500. Is that just the camera module? What about the HD viewfinder? What about the hard drive or tape-deck? As much as I love Cooke S4's, remember that one of them will cost you more than the camera itself. And unless you are shooting Dogma-style, you will probably want a couple. It might not be vaporware, but until I see condensation, I'm not going to get excited.

The HDX-900 will be available in July. If I need to buy an HD camera around then (and the client allows delivery on DVCPRO-HD), I will get one. It all spins down to what you need at the time and what is available.

In two years, if Red has their act together and it actually costs what they say it will cost, THEN I will get excited.

[The Machinist]

Yea the 17,500 price tag everyone is raving about is a fantasy.

In an earlier discussion in the REd forum someone took into account all of the new equipment you will have to purchase and the pricetag was closer to 40,000.

While still a bargain for what it can do it doesn't necessarily leave it open to the people who think they can maybe manage 17,500.

[tony404]

Again to spend that money have to think more then just the day you bought it. They go out of business, no parts hard to get service for them. I would wait for second gen for anything new and more a new company.

[Terence Lehane]

AJ-HDX900 - why is no one talking about it?

because...

The AJ-HDX900 will be available in July at a suggested list price of $26,500 (plus viewfinder).

[D_and_G]

Exactly Terence.

The days of paying $30 GRAND for a 2/3" camera are coming to a close. But heck, if you need it now, buy it. Then sell it in a year or two. I just wouldn't pluck down the benjamins expecting the cam to be in the running in 5 years. Use the cam now, gather props, and have your choice of cams in the future.

We stilll have to see the footage from RED, and there are a hundred reasons to be skeptical (as with some posts evidenced above). I prefer the "feet on the ground, head in the clouds" philosophy. Choice is always a great thing.

If the camera is good for you, then use it and prosper, mate. Just don't be surprised when a potential revolution is happening around the corner that people will pay much attention.


:beer:


Cheers.

[terminus]

What are the primary differences between the HDX900 and the Varicam?

[Rowlander]

I could be wrong about this but I believe that a lot of people here couldn´t afford the AJ-HDX900. Like me. Or at least they don´t "want" to. This ist the "DVXuser-Forum" after all. :-)
I can understand that a lot of people are excited about the RED. I am too. But those two cameras we are talking about are not really for indies. Right?

[Haakon]

But those two cameras we are talking about are not really for indies. Right?
I think there's a pretty big difference between $17,500 and $26,500. That's not to say that I think $17,500 is cheap by any means - but at the same time I don't think it's fair to lump these two cameras together. They get even farther apart when you compare specs, and considering that the one which does twice as much costs a little more than half the price of the other... I would say it's not really a surprise that no one's really talking about the Panasonic. It will probably be a decent tool, but it's overpriced and has retreated back to the world of tape. In 2004, it would've been great, but as they say... it's too little too late.

I'm a DP by "commercial" trade but I'm an independent filmmaker as well, and I'm fully planning on getting a RED. So, yes, I think RED is a perfect tool for the independent filmmaker. I appreciate having the ability to own my equipment far greater than having to rent all the time. I already have an HVX paid off, RED isn't THAT much more. So I'll have to make a modest monthly payment on my credit card for awhile. For my personal situation, the ability to own a camera that does everything I could possibly want and more is just not something I'm interested in passing up.

[cpyle]

The 900 does not do variable frame-rates (ie. over or under-cranking) like the Varicam. I does have a Fire-Wire out so you can record directly to Firestore or laptop. I like the fact that it records to tape. I guess I'm old-fasioned that way. It is pretty much the SDX-900 camera but with DVC-PRO HD. With viewfinder and lens you're looking at over $40K

Chris

[HVXguy]

I still know plenty of shooters who would go for the HVX900.
A friend of mine bought the HVX200 and I have had to train him in the ways of P2. He cannot seem to grasp the concept.
He is still shooting BetaSP on shoots and is afraid to break out the HVX. He finally has a laptop on order and I will have to help him with that. So yes, some people will prefer tape over P2 and I have find a shining example for you.

[evenblink]

I give red a huge amount of credit, they are the only company that has the balls to do something different. Who cares how they are going to make and where. The fact is they are going to make it.

[dotconnproductions]

I do believe that the Panny will record in a few variable frame rates. You won't be able to dial on the fly like the Varicam, but it does allow frames between 4 and 60 fps. Pretty decent. It looks like it only has (3) cinegamma settings which is a bummer, but I imagine you'll be able to customize a bit as well.

It's probably my next camera as I just don't have the storage or desire to switch to P2 (200+ hours of footage per project with multiple (6-7) projects going simultanously.

Plus, I can slum my 2/3" lens on it for a while until I can save up for a proper HD 2/3" lens.

[evinsky]

If this were $20,000 with a lens and viewfinder and recorded to P2 it would be very interesting.

Tape is dead, I'll go Red.

[Emanuel]

I think there's a pretty big difference between $17,500 and $26,500. That's not to say that I think $17,500 is cheap by any means - but at the same time I don't think it's fair to lump these two cameras together. They get even farther apart when you compare specs, and considering that the one which does twice as much costs a little more than half the price of the other... I would say it's not really a surprise that no one's really talking about the Panasonic. It will probably be a decent tool, but it's overpriced and has retreated back to the world of tape. In 2004, it would've been great, but as they say... it's too little too late. (...)So, yes, (...) RED is a perfect tool for the independent filmmaker.You said all.If this were $20,000 with a lens and viewfinder and recorded to P2 it would be very interesting.

Tape is dead, I'll go Red.Evin added the conclusion.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Red has a long way to go.....
Where are they going to build them....in the US?
There are no hardcore manufacturing facilities
like this in the US, unless Red plans on building one.
If they are going to handbuild then that opens the door for
many defects and slow delivery. I can see the owner over
in Japan or China trying to get this contracted...
Yeah right

!?!?!?!?!

[Rowlander]

I think there's a pretty big difference between $17,500 and $26,500. That's not to say that I think $17,500 is cheap by any means...

Have you forgotten that you have to buy a lens and a storage device for the RED? Have you seen, what that 300mm Lens costs? $17,500 is only the camera body! This is where it starts. Oh, and maybe you´ll need one of those cages. Now you´re getting a lot closer to $26,500. Of course the RED schould be the better camera but TOO expensive stays TOO expensive, no matter how good it is. :crybaby:

[EShy]

It's called thunder stealing, that's what RED did to all the other camera manufacturers this NAB, including panasonic and it's new HDX900.

as for manufacturirng issues with RED, in the interview Jim said they have a fab for the chip already, their design but they can do it themselves.

The rest is just electronics, shouldn't be too much of a problem.
it's not like he's a software silicon valley millionare who never had any manufacturing experince, and Oakley products do have electronics stuff in them for some reason.

[Haakon]

Have you forgotten that you have to buy a lens and a storage device for the RED? Have you seen, what that 300mm Lens costs? $17,500 is only the camera body! This is where it starts. Oh, and maybe you´ll need one of those cages. Now you´re getting a lot closer to $26,500. Of course the RED schould be the better camera but TOO expensive stays TOO expensive, no matter how good it is. :crybaby:
No, I haven't forgotten. And the price of Panasonic's new camera doesn't include a lens either.

I'm sorry, but the arguments about the $17,500 price being vastly understated because of everything else you'll "have to buy" don't fly with me. That's like all of the people that said the HVX won't do what it promises without forking over another 3 grand in P2 and accessories. Last time I checked, a 4GB was around 600 bucks.

You absolutely will not need a cage to use RED. You don't NEED to put a spoiler and 6-disc CD changer in your car to get it from point A to point B either. Yeah, that stuff is cool, and perhaps eventually it will pay for itself and you'll be able to continually upgrade it. That's actually RED's entire plan. But to say that you'll need $30,000-$40,000 just to use RED is nonsense.

They've already announced that the storage magazines will be priced around $1,000. And there are TONS of lenses available with a PL mount that you can buy, rent, or pick up used. I think you can easily find a workable solution for RED around $20,000, and just grow as your work needs demand it. Yes, you can certainly come up with a RED package that would cost $40,000, but you don't NEED to spend that much by any stretch of the imagination. You could do the same thing with the HVX, but a lot of people have managed to make it work with just the body and one card. You get what you can afford.

Anyway (getting back to the original topic), the point I made was that Panasonic's offering of a 1080 camera with no variable framerates that shoots to tape for $26,000 (without lens) is just far too little, too late. Unless due to your current infrastructure remaining in DVCPROHD and shooting to tape is the ultimate concern, I really don't even see the point of the camera - at least at this price.

[mr._guiyotinne]

Haakon, plus they don´t include the viewfinder neither...

My guess, 25 grand for a fully funcional RED with the cage you like and a good lens; couple of magazines and extra monitor to aim well the focus. That´s a bargain! Make it 30 or a bit more with the 17-100 And still beats the price of any other camcorder around. Time to be positive!...

And imagine a good strategy for the savings.

Maybe this is just an early model for those who still feel uncomfortable with the idea of getting rid of their tape workflow and their relation with the stations (go there, pass the tape, fly away). I expect another one. I don´t know when, but sure there will be.

[Sidderke]

No, I haven't forgotten. And the price of Panasonic's new camera doesn't include a lens either.

I'm sorry, but the arguments about the $17,500 price being vastly understated because of everything else you'll "have to buy" don't fly with me. That's like all of the people that said the HVX won't do what it promises without forking over another 3 grand in P2 and accessories. Last time I checked, a 4GB was around 600 bucks.

You absolutely will not need a cage to use RED. You don't NEED to put a spoiler and 6-disc CD changer in your car to get it from point A to point B either. Yeah, that stuff is cool, and perhaps eventually it will pay for itself and you'll be able to continually upgrade it. That's actually RED's entire plan. But to say that you'll need $30,000-$40,000 just to use RED is nonsense.

They've already announced that the storage magazines will be priced around $1,000. And there are TONS of lenses available with a PL mount that you can buy, rent, or pick up used. I think you can easily find a workable solution for RED around $20,000, and just grow as your work needs demand it. Yes, you can certainly come up with a RED package that would cost $40,000, but you don't NEED to spend that much by any stretch of the imagination. You could do the same thing with the HVX, but a lot of people have managed to make it work with just the body and one card. You get what you can afford.

Anyway (getting back to the original topic), the point I made was that Panasonic's offering of a 1080 camera with no variable framerates that shoots to tape for $26,000 (without lens) is just far too little, too late. Unless due to your current infrastructure remaining in DVCPROHD and shooting to tape is the ultimate concern, I really don't even see the point of the camera - at least at this price.

I agree completely with everything you posted there!

[ropbo]

Well, you won't find a good Super 16 zoom lens for less than 6 grand ... that's for sure. But you can find a set of Zeiss Superspeed Mk I (bayonet mount) for around 5. Zeiss Superspeed set Mk II PL mount for around $15,000

(I'm talking about used lenses)

If you go with 35mm lenses, you won't find a good zoom lense for less than 10 grand.

Buying a $17500 camera and using a shitty/cheap lens doesn't make much sense, does it ?

BUT ... you can rent good lenses for $300 - $500 a day which is a good deal ...

If you wanna have an idea of costs, check this website out:

http://www.cinematechnic.com/products/sales_lenses.html

[Simon Wyndham]

Even with $10k on top of the body price, RED is still a bargain IF it lives up to the quality that the specs suggest.

Lets talk about what is involved in the purchase of a 2/3" camera if you are purchasing from scratch.

1. Camera (HDX900 say) $26k.
2. 2/3" broadcast HD lens, at least $20k.
3. Batteries plus charger. AB Dionic system cost me around 4k UKP, so thats around, what, $7k? You can get cheaper such as SWIT, but it is still gonna cost around $2k at least.
4. Tripod. Need a big heavy tripod for a 2/3" camera. So factor in, ooh, $3k (I'm not sure of US prices, but my Miller DS25 cost me around 2k UKP).

Want to protect your investment with a cover? How about $300? Want to upgrade that 1.5" Panny viewfinder to something decent like a true 2" 16:9 one? thats gonna cost too.

All told purchasing a 2/3" camera is a never ending list of extras, and at the end of the day, while I still love the balance of the things and the build quality etc, they are still big and heavy, and they still take up a lot of boot space in my car. Rather madly I took my 510 on my own up on the Malvern Hills last year. I carried the camera plus lens, plus the Miller Tripod, plus the jib arm, the jib counter weights, and my spare AB batteries, and forgot to take some water with me (this was in summer!) Now THAT was pain! I think the army guys who jogged past me thinking they had large backpacks to carry were put to shame rather!

So, RED has a few things going for it. First and foremost is the size. If they can sort out shoulder mounting balance issues it will be great. Second, the price. Tripods are not going to need to be as big and heavy for this thing unless you are doing wildlife style photograhy with long lenses. Even better is that RED will not require huge batteries either.

The factor in determining RED's value is in the price/performance ratio. Is it good or not? Forget whether you can afford it personally. You are not going to get this kind of performance for the price of a DVX. But by the same token this camera brings 4k shooting down to 2/3" DVCpro50 price levels.

With the HDV cameras I had reservations about the compression, and the quality of 1/3" chips. Same for the HVX, but I had problems with P2. With RED however the company is giving a full choice of how you as a user want to shoot and record your footage, with no restrictions on sampling quality, sensor resolution, or depth of field. Hell they are even making it so that the sensor can be swapped out as better models come along! I have reservations about their body design, but it is just a prototype. Other than that, whats not to like?

I will admit openly that on these very forums I accused RED of being vapourware. However what I didn't consider was that RED hasn't just started being developed this year or last. It was started in 1999. The sensor works, and has been tested, so they know what it can do. This is a camera that is reaching a mature stage of development from what I can tell.

Olus ultimately it is possibly this camera that will drive down the cost of cameras overall. Even if you never buy RED nor have any intention of doing so, you may still be directly affected by what it does to the market. IF it does what it says on the box.

[tony404]

you guys talk about red like it exists and it doesnt ,its all pretty pictures and slick marketing so far. They dont even have a working model. I highly doubt the big three are shaking in their shoes.This reminds me when the foveon chip was going to come out , it would change digital photography forever and it didnt.

[Simon Wyndham]

There you've made a fatal mistake. They do have a working camera. Just not one that is ready to show the public. They haven't just been drawing up specs on paper for fun.

As for the big three not shaking in their boots, well, I think you may be surprised if the developments I have heard about are anything to go by. Things are going to be shaken up in a big way over the next year or two mark my words.

[tony404]

There you've made a fatal mistake. They do have a working camera. Just not one that is ready to show the public. They haven't just been drawing up specs on paper for fun.

As for the big three not shaking in their boots, well, I think you may be surprised if the developments I have heard about are anything to go by. Things are going to be shaken up in a big way over the next year or two mark my words.
if they do why not show it or the footage that makes no sense especially if they are looking for $1000 deposit. Sorry Im not ready to drink the koolaid yet lol.

[HVXguy]

That would be fantastic!! As soon as RED, GREEN or BLUE comes out, I am ready! If it's $17,500 or $47,500. Strap it on and I am good to go!!
Gotta fill up my website. As soon as the RED Shooters come-on board we will add the "Ultra High Def" Category!!!

[stokestack]

I think people are seriously underestimating or just not facing the storage challenge with the Red. Achieving the necessary data rates for this kind of resolution is challenging for a tower computer, let alone a portable device. In a studio with Lucas's 4:4:4 CineAlta, I witnessed the tweaking and coaxing that was needed to capture full res over Fibre Channel to a cart full of equipment.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss a "conventional" camera for reasons of sheer handling or practicality.

[Simon Wyndham]

No, people are not underestimating the storage requirements of RED. Each and every interview with the people behind RED is very clear indeed. 4:4:4 is there if you need it and have the capability. RED is open to record a variety of formats. You want plain old vanilla 1080p or it, then go for it and record at a much lower sampling rate. But the info still comes of the same sensor so you still get the same DoF characteristics.

With RED you have a CHOICE of how to record. Go and watch Terminator. The Future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves :)

[Stas_Tagios]

I'm excited about Red after seeing the booth presentation at NAB. If the company delivers on all its promises, the camera will be phenomenal, and likely precipitate a sea change in the world of HD acquisition; even if you can't afford Red -- I know I certainly can't -- its success should force the big camera makers -- Sony, Panasonic, etc. -- to rethink their products and price structures, which will yield cheaper camera prices for everyone. After all, why would anyone pay $100 grand for a CineAlta if Red can do it all, and more, for much less?

The modular design of Red is quite ingenious. It took someone outside the traditional video/HD camera manufacturing system to really shake things up in a great way, and I'd love nothing more than to see it succeed. (I just wish they'd made their first lens something shorter than a 300) Even if I can't afford the Red, maybe I'll be able to afford a Varicam or Cinealta or HDX900 once Panasonic and Sony have to cut their prices to compete with Red. :)

[Ralph Oshiro]

What are the primary differences between the HDX900 and the Varicam?Varicam :
1. Variable frame rates.
2. Film gamma.

HDX900:
1. Cine gamma.

[Haakon]

Don't forget the HDX900 also does 1080 60i/24p and Varicam maxes out at 720.

[evinsky]

Well, you won't find a good Super 16 zoom lens for less than 6 grand ... that's for sure. But you can find a set of Zeiss Superspeed Mk I (bayonet mount) for around 5. Zeiss Superspeed set Mk II PL mount for around $15,000

(I'm talking about used lenses)

If you go with 35mm lenses, you won't find a good zoom lense for less than 10 grand.

Buying a $17500 camera and using a shi*ty/cheap lens doesn't make much sense, does it ?

BUT ... you can rent good lenses for $300 - $500 a day which is a good deal ...

If you wanna have an idea of costs, check this website out:

http://www.cinematechnic.com/products/sales_lenses.html

This is not necessarily true. The larger the sensor the less per line height resolution a given lens needs to resolve. That's why Imax uses Hasselblad lenses, not super pricey cinema glass. Also, most older 35mm cinema lenses were designed for 35mm film and don't take into account the vignetting that sensors can show when light rays hit them off axis. More modern Nikon lenses such as the 17-35mm zoom will produce superior results to older wide angle lenses. It sure does on my 12MP D2x.

I have $10K worth of Nikon glass already so it's a no brainer for me to just add focus gears and call it good. I'll still buy some Red lenses and if things go well maybe some more modern Zeiss glass but honestly I doub't the difference will be stunning.
My biggest hope is that a Leica M mount can be made for Red. Some of my favorite lenses of all time are the Leica M 35mm Summilux and 50mm Summmicron M.
I get chills just thinking about shooting a film with leica M glass:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[Noel Evans]

This is just my opinion and Im basing it on feeling not facts. The stats of the red seem phenomenal. But even if I could afford it I wouldnt buy it. True I want the best image available for the $$ but not at the expense of other things that I feel are important.

The design, I think it looks like something suited to GI Joe. Why would this matter? Well when you go out on a job, people look at the equipment you bring, usually its a 2 second glance and a thought "oh yeah it looks pro" they are comfortable. Red doesnt look like a traditional camera, and whilst thats appealing to you and I, it doesnt make others comfortable. When people buy a wheel they want it to look like a wheel.

For my mind, everyone out there wants a camera that outputs what this camera hypothetically can achieve at the lower price point. I think red should have concentrated on delivering just that, and not re invent the wheel.. just my 2c.

[evinsky]

Do you remember what sunglasses looked like before Oakley?
Nuf said.

[Simon Wyndham]

not re invent the wheel.

Sometimes that is neccesary though. The current market is pretty stale, and it needed someone to come along and think completely outside the box. At the end of the day people are going to be caring more about the picture quality that is produced. As for looks, at the moment I think the camera looks weird. However imagine it with the lens, matte box, rails, recording device , battery etc.

[Noel Evans]

Do you remember what sunglasses looked like before Oakley?
Nuf said.

Yeah and now they have for the most part regressed to an older look.

I mean just take a look at these for a start... http://oakley.com/o/c326s

Anyway its just my opinion........NUF said.

Sometimes that is neccesary though. The current market is pretty stale, and it needed someone to come along and think completely outside the box. At the end of the day people are going to be caring more about the picture quality that is produced. As for looks, at the moment I think the camera looks weird. However imagine it with the lens, matte box, rails, recording device , battery etc.

As I said with regards to the price and the output its great. But I agree with your last point... with all those attached it would tone the overall look down considerably.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think we may have drifted off topic.. The poster (Long ago) was asking about why there was no information on the HDX900 out there.. Then someone said it was because of the red camera.

I don't think this is true. Look, I think the RED camera is great, and when it arrives I will look at it.

My belief is that Panasonic made this decision not long ago at all. This camera will not be a major alteration from the Varicam and it won't be too hard to put together. So I think they simply looked at the market and decided that this is where they need to go. I THINK this will be the only Tape HD camera that will allow all flavors of resolution.

Personally I am not done with Tape yet. I like it as a storage medium (Good tape that is). BUT This new 900 works with Tape AND has Firewire Out which means it will work with the new Firestore Drive as well.. So I have a choice.. I LOVE THAT. Tape for backup, and harddrive for editing.

As for right now.. I am very excited about the 900 and a little pissed. I have only owned my 900 for 2 years.. I sure hope they offer some incentive to those of us who have been loyal to Panasonic and spent $30,000 plus on their SD version.

From what I can tell we are looking at a Firewire / SDI camera that can do 1080P and up to 60fps at 720P. This is major. Also being the same body style as the other cameras (I assume) means all my accessories will still work on it.

My AJ-SDX900 has been wonderful. I love the images I have been able to get with it and I KNOW I have not scratched the surface of what it can do. The 900s were built to be very tough, and work with today's standard broadcast equipment. The RED is going to be a new animal and will take a lot of it's own toys.

Like anyone who does this stuff for a living, usually you will spend more money on what you put ON the camera than you will on the camera itself. I am excited about Red, but I am excited about this new camera from Panasonic as well. I personally feel RED will be doing quite well if they can have a product with no bugs and proper accessories and a good workflow all the way to editing by the end of 2007, but I would not expect it a day before then. The camera may be ready sooner, but there is a long way to go after that.

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Cool article on Panasonic stuff with pictures.. Big deal since the photos all look the same

http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=39860

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

This article comes with a PDF.. Better

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/02products/products/aj-hdx900/aj-hdx900.html

[Jarred Land]

thanks Jay. :)

[Ralph Oshiro]

Don't forget the HDX900 also does 1080 60i/24p and Varicam maxes out at 720.Oh yeah. You're right. Did we miss anything else?

[DC]

Well that's a simple answer - RED - that's why.
RED is only $17,500 and offers a lot higher quality and a revolutionary design. The SI camera is also cheaper and will offer at least the same kind of quality.
If Panasonic released this new cam for $15,000 it would probably get more buzz here, but I know they probably can't because of the tape drive.

I mean it looks like a nice camera no doubt, but everyone here is focused on the new independent startups offerin g better cams at lower prices.

RED didn't really show much of anything. It was a lot of talk. It's a great concept but it remains to be seen what, if anything, they'll actually release. Nice guys though.

[Ralph Oshiro]

RED didn't really show much of anything.But they did show something. RED proved to me they were real when I saw that [functional] 300mm f/2.8 prime lens for $4,750.

[masada1903]

RED didn't really show much of anything. It was a lot of talk. It's a great concept but it remains to be seen what, if anything, they'll actually release. Nice guys though.

I know this has been said before, but maybe it should be said again. This exact same statement could be said of Panasonic last year in regards to the HVX. I happen to think the HVX is a pretty sweet camera, but at the time, a number of people criticized them for being 'all talk.'

Yes, it remains to be seen what they actually release, but let's be fair here.

[masada1903]

The design, I think it looks like something suited to GI Joe. Why would this matter? Well when you go out on a job, people look at the equipment you bring, usually its a 2 second glance and a thought "oh yeah it looks pro" they are comfortable. Red doesnt look like a traditional camera, and whilst thats appealing to you and I, it doesnt make others comfortable. When people buy a wheel they want it to look like a wheel.

I know how you feel! Every time I do a shoot using a DVX, PD150, even an XL2 (which has the illusion of being pro), I feel very "small shop amatuer"ish! Lucky for me, my experience has been that the people who do the hiring haven't got a clue. They take one look at a PD150 and say "Cool!" Not that I have anything against the Sony cam, but it definitely doesn't look "pro." I guess that'd be a Varicam.

My guess is, most people will make a fuss about it for 5 minutes (mostly involving words like "cool" and "weird"), and then go back to what they were doing. How many people are going to hire you, see your camera, and then come up to you and say, "You know, this really isn't working out the way we had hoped. We thought you'd be a little more pro. Your services are no longer required." ? ? ? Anyone?

[joe 1008]

On the screen 1/3" material looks different to 2/3" material. Generally it looks worse. You don´t even need to know why there is a difference. It just feels different. That´s the moment when people who hire you might get real doubts. But the HVX900 is oldscool. It´s really weird that Panasonic announced the P2-equivalent for 2007 - and for more or less the same price. Can´t they take a HVX-body, stick it to a 2/3" HD-head and offer it for the price of a RED? Right now? It would be all proven tecnology, no need to spend much time and money on development.

[Steve-O]

But Indie filmmakers are not panasonic's number one concern, regarding the HDX900. They have big customers in broadcast sports and news. Who see the HDX as a more manageable camera for their projects. These people do not care about Red. And they have been paying Panasonic, Sony and the like big money over the years.

Joe Said: "Can´t they take a HVX-body, stick it to a 2/3" HD-head and offer it for the price of a RED? Right now?"

Why? the red is not out right now, its a business not a race. Why give away features that you can sell for later?

[Barry_Green]

People have to understand something else too about Red vs. HDX900, etc. The HDX would come with a massive support network. Hundreds of professional dealers and service centers, thousands of trained technicians. That kind of support network is vital for mass adoption by large businesses.

I don't believe Red is even looking at that. Red isn't even looking at having dealers. They are going to sell one-on-one, company-direct to individual owner-operators, aren't they? I don't know how networks would feel about the Red purchasing/service business model, and I don't know that Jim and crew are even concerned about that market as of yet. But I can certainly imagine that the backing of a Sony or Panasonic is a large factor in the mass-quantity-buyer decision-making process.

[ddh]

Support for Red is going to be an initial problem especially for people out of the US. I think however that it will deliver a good image at a very good price point and about glass, get the best you can afford period. That $5,000 300 mm lens by Red will be a great addition to keeping the basic cost down. Red's where it's at but Barry's right Panasonic has great support and that's something Red will have to consider.

[joe 1008]

Barry is right with what he said about the Panasonic service net. I did´nt consider that point. But it is unavoidable that prosumer products get closer and closer to the high-end products. What happened with the DVX in SD will happen in HD, too - and I´m not only talking about the HVX or the RED (of course the RED is not a prosumer cam - but its price is a big advantage) So why give away a big share of the mass-market to other companies? Once the chinese will be able to offer a 2/3" cam for 9999$ there will be a loud and painful outcry. Anyway, like one of us uses to quote: "I´m brand agnostic" and will always try to get the best for my money.

[HVXguy]

People have to understand something else too about Red vs. HDX900, etc. The HDX would come with a massive support network. Hundreds of professional dealers and service centers, thousands of trained technicians. That kind of support network is vital for mass adoption by large businesses.

I don't believe Red is even looking at that. Red isn't even looking at having dealers. They are going to sell one-on-one, company-direct to individual owner-operators, aren't they? I don't know how networks would feel about the Red purchasing/service business model, and I don't know that Jim and crew are even concerned about that market as of yet. But I can certainly imagine that the backing of a Sony or Panasonic is a large factor in the mass-quantity-buyer decision-making process.

Look at all the "cutting edge" cameras that came out in the still photography industry. I have many of those sitting on my shelf.
The Nishika 3D camera, it was cool but the process to get photos made was slow and expensive. The RED concept is great and I hope it does succeed. I think I heard a figure that 1000 deposits were put down, at $1000 a deposit that is - One Million? The NAB booth probably cost? $100,000?? One Million might cover marketing costs for one year? So the owner is a billionaire, who made his money making cool sunglasses? I know he has a crew of talented and smart people behind him who have staked entire careers behind this concept. Today I can go out with my Nikon and make Ultra HD timelapse's. I did see the Silicon Imaging WMV HD of the Flamingo.
Low noise for sure and I would like to know more info about the lenses used and the post-production process. How did they record that? Was the camera tethered to some computer rack? It will be interesting once RED gets going. My passion is about the image and as I see more and more footage I know one thing, it's the talent behind the camera that produces great footage, not the camera itself.

[Jack_Felis]

I saw footage from the HDX900 at NAB. Looked GREAT! Much better than that XDCAM stuff Sony's selling, at least from a filmmaker's standpoint. I don't know about you guys, but when I see 60i footage from the higher-up cameras like the HDX900 and XDCAM, I can't really tell the difference between them. But when it came to 24p, Panasonic definitely knows what they're doing. Sony's done much better with their XDCAM 24p stuff than they did with the HDV version of 24p.

But yeah, basic answer to this thread is that most were more concerned about RED and possibly a little bit about the surprise announcement from JVC for the HD200U and HD250U. So yeah, that's about it.

[richriehl]

I agree, they must have shown it at NAB for tons of press coverage, but I can't find any info. I was so disappointed with the early looks at the image quality on the HVX200. The HDX900 seems like a totally pro way to go. The only question I have is that the CCD's seem to have one million pixels, and I think this is less than HD standards. Isn't 2K the magic resolution number here?

Besides that one question, I am holding off on buying an HD camcorder til the HDX900 specs are out.

I email Crittenden with questions, but I am sure she was maxed at NAB.

Does anybody know more???

Do we know what a complete camera with lens and all will cost???

[Illya Friedman]

It's a mistake to count out the HDX900 before it ever ships. I worked with an owner-op this weekend who's ready to buy 2. He told me if it also included P2 slots like an HVX he would have pre-ordered them immediately, and sold his BVW600s. The camera plugs into every existing production companies HD workflow seamlessly with both 1080i and 720p. 23.98 w/1080i means that the F900 has a real rival... WITHOUT CRT FLICKER! Price point compared to F900 is fantastic. Tape stock and decks are fraction of the price of HDCam. For the broadcast company/producer who's not ready to transition to P2, this is ideal. The HVX as B/Producers cam will get companies into tapeless gradually. The HDX900 fills a need immediately.

Panasonic is always competitive with price in professional broadcast. If Sony drops the price of HD XDCam, Panasonic will surely follow with what they feel are comparitive products.

I.

[menchifus]

Why would Panny lower the price of their camera in response to a camera (RED) that doesn't even have a prototype yet???

At best, RED looks great on paper. But it will take at least 1.5 years for it to come on the market if you factor in development, prototype construction, testing, retesting, production, waiting list, support structure development, etc. And 1.5 years is fast if there are no setbacks. You'll probably see a working prototype at NAB2007.

Besides, how many of us here can drop around $20,000 on a camera? People are already complaining about spending $600 - 1200 on P2 cards after spending $6k on the HVX.

I think we should all come back to reality and talk about what's available now and what we can afford now. Let's talk about refining the settings for the HVX and improving workflow. Let's pressure Panny for an upgrade to get rid of the noise.

Nuf said!

[Jan_Crittenden]

The HDX900 seems like a totally pro way to go. The only question I have is that the CCD's seem to have one million pixels, and I think this is less than HD standards. Isn't 2K the magic resolution number here?

Do we know what a complete camera with lens and all will cost???

Rich,
The Varicam only has 1 million pixels. Isn't that an HD camera? The CCDs are not a pixel for pixel map to the recording, it is an analog device. Gains can be made in spatial offset. And while I know that peopl think that there is something wrong with that, people that really understand how cameras work think it is a brilliant solution for squeezing every last drop of performance out of a camera. 2 million pixel imagers are expensive and less low light sensitive.

And you can figure out for your self what the rest of the camera will cost, by visitng the nice folks at Canon or Fujinon. The camera body is $26,500, the VF will be in the $3,000 range, tripod plate $500 or so. Case ? Tripod?

Yes the HDX900 should indeed be one very nice camera and yes the HVX200 will be a nice compliment to it as well. Just like it is to the Varicam and the SDX900.

Best,

Jan

[willshipp]

your pitching this one to the wrong crowd. first $5500.00 compared to $26,500.00 just for the body, that does not include the lens. a Good HD lens could cost you $13k to $17k, plus batts, heavy duty tripod, hd monitor, zoom control, filters, wide angle lens, etc. you will be $55k before its all said and done. my friend, this is a house payment, these are dvx users, small hand held portalble cam that has mostly all the same features, the 900 is a nice camera, its taking over the sdx-900 witch is a greate camera but its not HD. Lots of people ran out and got that one and by next year it will be a expensive paper weight. The HDX 900 does have a larger chip set but still not practical unless your a rental house like Wexler or Bexell.

[ddh]

The whole map in the video world is changing and quite quickly. It was just 10 years ago that you had few choices = top end beta-cam or bottom end Hi 8 and nothing in between. I expect Red to come out and pretty much on time. I also think the big companies will rise to the challenge and follow Panasonic's lead (as the Red and Silicon teams have been doing) by getting advice from the consumers on forums like this! This approach is what has brought on a good connection between knowledgeable people like Barry, Jarred, and Steven Mullen and many others to give advice and connect with the rest of us out here in video production land where ever we live and work.
The big boys are paying attention and people like Jim Jannard are more than welcome to bring their creations our way. I'm very excited about Red. It's going to kick some serious butt! I will do what I have to do to move my work along to be able to buy a Red camera. If Red turns out to be as good as it's promoted to be, it'll be around for a good while as a company.
My 2 cents worth.

[getken]

When I saw the HDX900 at NAB I was really excited. I was also surprised considering a few months before I was told by a Panasonic rep that they would not be producing any more tape based cameras. The HDX900 is a great camera for the owner/operator moving out of the high end betacam world (I have a Sony D600WS) into HD. I've had many calls this year for HD, mostly Varicam but also the Sony F900. This camera will cover both those realms at a very advantageous price point and I look forward to it's release with my eye on purchase. I just wish it did SD too! Then it would really be the missing link...one high end professional camera that does it all.

I did acquire an HVX 200 at NAB and am awaiting it's arrival. It will be a great tool to work with the new 900 (as well as with the Varicam and the F900). The HVX900 does not have overcrank and undercrank abilities like it's big brother Varicam but if you want those effects it can be done with the little 200. What a great team.

As to Red (which hijacked this thread and should have been a thread of its own), I checked out their booth, listened to their spiel and looked in their tent at the mockups. It'll be a cool product if it happens. But what they've done is some great marketing and nothing more. Kind of like Blair Witch.

One of the issues with the 3/4 HD cameras is using good HD glass (don't want to pick up artifacts using SD glass). That is really expensive, I'm partial to Fujinon zoom lenses (if not using primes) and the HD lenses are over 20 grand (I think the new 16X6.3 was listing at about 25K). Angenieux was offering some HD glass. Although I've never used their lenses I've seen them around for years. They had a somewhat comparable lens to the new Fujinon at $10500. That's a great price for HD glass. Are their lenses good?

[drdimento]

AMEN on the Solid and Being Around as Tony404 says. I'm a stickler to such a detail, rather than "who knows" philosophy with regard to future being there.

[SwissPAL]

I think there's a pretty big difference between $17,500 and $26,500. That's not to say that I think $17,500 is cheap by any means - but at the same time I don't think it's fair to lump these two cameras together. They get even farther apart when you compare specs, and considering that the one which does twice as much costs a little more than half the price of the other......

Please do keep in mind that with RED you only get a -- DREAM!! Admittedly they scored on the naming and the matching domain. But they have no working prototype, nobody who can build that full size CCD imager cheap enough and of course no footage to show for. I would bet the family silver on the delivery being far far away. Just look at the huge problems and delays we had with both the VIPER (Thomson/ GF) and GENESIS (Panavision) cameras.

Now for price -- the $17,500 is for BODY ONLY (granted it comes w. a 300mm lens -- what an odd choice for a starter lens -- but good to cover your NASCAR race). Once you add everything from a lens package (5 primes) plus storage (look for TB NOT GB Storage ) plus accessories you are somewhere around 50k (w. cheap lenses that is). All that for a camera that may look cool as a 3D model with "body only" showing but has a truly absurd form-factor that will look (and feel and weigh) even more awkward with a large lens and raid attached to it.

[Jarred Land]

Thanks for the retardedly wrong facts Swiss :)

They have a sensor, and it works. They just announced that they have images coming off of it. It doesnt come with a 300mm lens.. thats just the first lens that came out of manufacturing. They are making a very capable zoom lens around the $5000k mark.

So please do some research before you spread a buncha falsehoods.. it just adds to the confusion.

[Jack_Felis]

While I don't disagree with your overall post SwissPAL, though some of your statements are false, there are the other accessories to consider that would make that workflow just for a select few. There's the RED FLASH and the Bluray disc adapter for storage and I believe the RED team said that there would be more lenses besides the initial RED Lense.

As you've said, this camera will be a really hefty investment in the end no matter what, but there will be alternatives to hopefully make the workflow more streamlined and portable all the while being, yet again hopefully, cheaper than 50k+.

I do like that one line you used "Please do keep in mind that with RED you only get a -- DREAM!!!", nothing more true could ever be said about the RED camera. Nobody said that by getting a RED camera that you'd be successful, it depends on the talent of the person using it. :)

[SwissPAL]

Have YOU seen it (RED that is)
I didn't think so....
The RED team is good at hyping as we have all seen at NAB <sorry you fell for it bro>.
Loads of speculations result from RED's venturesome NAB push in forums such as yours. I have considerably more respect for companies who DELIVER a product that is working (http://www.dalsa.com/dc/origin/origin.asp) rather than hyping something that is far away from being implemented.

Furthermore, if you knew anything about sensor manufacturing you'd understand that a full-size chip will be exponentially more expensive to produce than a 2/3" chipset. You can only get a few sensors from each costly wafer and the reject ratio is considerably higher due to its large area.

Therefore, I am the devil's advocate until I actually see the sensor in action with images to proove it at the price point that makes sense for a $17k camera. Until then Jared, it's still all hot air and tons of speculations from both amateurs and pros. :thumbsup:

[Jannard]

SwissPal... you do whatever you need to do and say whatever you need to say. Please excuse us if we go ahead with the project whether you believe or not. BTW, bro, what is it you do?

My best. Jim

[TimurCivan]

The RED team is good at hyping as we have all seen at NAB <sorry you fell for it bro>.
Loads of speculations result from RED's venturesome NAB push in forums such as yours. I have considerably more respect for companies who DELIVER a product that is working rather than hyping something that is far away from being implemented.

I doubt the RED team paid 75,000$ to set up a booth at Nab, just ot push a product that doesn't exist....

[Jarred Land]

Thanks for that Jared. :cry:


Now for your claims:
Have YOU seen it (RED that is)
I didn't think so....
:thumbsup:


yes i have. And which is why DVXUser.com continues to be 100% behind Red.

[Haakon]

Now for price -- the $17,500 is for BODY ONLY
Indeed, and the $26,500 quoted for the competing camera (which is what this thread was about in the first place) is "BODY ONLY" too. You have to compare apples to apples if you're doing a fair comparison. You can always add accessories until the cows come home, but the point was that Red costs almost half of what the other camera does in its base configuration and does a whole lot more.

Furthermore, it's been pointed out several times that you will be able to get into Red with a lens and a recording system in the low 20K range. The constantly perpetuated myth that it will take $50,000 to get a Red One working is disingenuous nonsense. You could pour $50K into an HVX setup if you wanted to, but obviously it's not necessary.

It's okay to be skeptical of new technology and I think we're all very anxious to see what kind of images the new camera will be capable of. But in the meantime, let's keep our slander to a minimum, eh? Thanks.

[tnle2]

Furthermore, if you knew anything about sensor manufacturing you'd understand that a full-size chip will be exponentially more expensive to produce than a 2/3" chipset. You can only get a few sensors from each costly wafer and the reject ratio is considerably higher due to its large area.

Therefore, I am the devil's advocate until I actually see the sensor in action with images to proove it at the price point that makes sense for a $17k camera. Until then Jared, it's still all hot air and tons of speculations from both amateurs and pros.

Dude, you're speculating as much as the people you are accusing. RED has clearly stated they are in development. The only factors to consider whether or not they will finish this product is financial backing and technical feasibility. Clearly they've got plenty of the former and as to the latter...well this isn't exactly rocket science (not to dig RED, but even Jim said that once).

[Jarred Land]

Erm... Swiss, do you mind publicly stating that I haven't seen an image from Red yet either? :laugh:

ha ha ha brilliant. man its a good day in Jarred Land.

[Spartacus]

Why should a millionaire (billionaire...?) with a reputable name and enterprise go out open with sth he can`t fulfill?
And what if the RED team will have to delay some things?
Big budget will keep filming 35mm or existing HD.
Low budget has a variety of "baby" HD cameras to choose from.
No budget will take whatever is at hand.
Last years IBC showed a half working HVX, guess what is sitting next to my monitor...
I just don`t get your point SwissPAL.

[Spartacus]

Now I get your point: your an entertainer.
Please. Go on. Make our day.

[baquajim]

Kind of hard to have footage when it is still under development.

But I hope as time goes on, more people think like you SwissPal, in fact I can think of about 171 people that need to start thinking like you.

[TimurCivan]

I smell Trolling. BAN HIM!

[Bucknfl]

HDX900 --- Why is no one talking about it?

[Jack_Felis]

There's nothing to talk about, maybe nobody's buying it, maybe people are waiting for the P2 version, maybe people are too busy doing stuff with them to stop and talk about them, maybe they aren't out yet, maybe nobody cares about them, or maybe people are too busy talking about the RED to notice.

In any case, I think this thread is dead or should be rebooted to get back on topic.

[Jan_Crittenden]

The AJ-HDX900 has not been delivered as yet. And they are talking about it at the Varicam Creative Cow Forum.

Best,

Jan

[Jack_Felis]

Thank you, Jan. :)

[kgb]

I've got another issue with Red. How much do you think it will cost to implement Red into your workflow...or rather, how much equipment would you need to buy and upgrade in order to accomodate the Red's series of high resolution images? I'm talking just to load 2K/4K footage into your system to cut. If you offline it, how long will it take to convert the footage into useable clips?

I'm sorry, but I'll take the Infinium Labs Phantom as a paradigm here. Prospective first time game console manufacturers claiming they will be able to do more and do it cheaper...three, four years go by, they keep releasing 3D computer rendered images of what it is *supposed* to look like when it's released. They take investors' money to keep funding their project and pocket plenty of it in the process.

I'll take a company like Panasonic at their word, but not a first time player...where there would be no penalty to wait for professional reviews. I don't see any advantage to snapping up the first Red cameras off the assembly line. It'll probably be buggy as hell...and it'll probably not be until Red 2 or 3 that the camera will work flawlessly. The HVX is the logical successor to one of the most successful cameras of all time, the DVX100. I don't see how you could go wrong with the HVX, where the Red has danger written all over it. I wouldn't put down your money on a pre-order, much less mine.

[AllAroundFilmLV]

This cam isnt really for what we do here, it looks like it would be used for HD news broadcasting or College Football, but not Independent films

[Jan_Crittenden]

This cam isnt really for what we do here, it looks like it would be used for HD news broadcasting or College Football, but not Independent films

If the SDX900 was/is used for Indy films and it is, and if the Varicam is used for Indy films and it is, then indeed this camera, the HDX900 will also be used for Indy films.

Best,

Jan

[fiercecurry]

Is this camera released or available yet? I read that it was officially released on July 24th, and now over a month later, not one single rental house in LA has one. Nor is it available for purchase.
Where is it, Jan?!

[samstagpro]

For the record, my independent film, "War & Truth" was shot almost exclusively with the SDX-900 and I continually get comments about how great the picture quality is.

My second film will absolutely be filmed with the HDX900. As a documentary filmmaker I could record to tape by day and transfer the clips I want to a hard drive at night. Three years ago I never would have dreamed I could be editing HD in the field WITHOUT an expensive deck.

I have been lurking a lot of forums today and there is a LOT of discussion about the HDX900. I agree with everyone that RED sounds very intriguing but in the meantime, DVCPRO has a proven track record and a post production work flow that works NOW!

The very second I have the budget to buy the HDX900 I am buying one! I can't wait for my DVX100a to meet it's big brother.

That's my two cents,
Michael Samstag
Director, War & Truth
http://www.underfirefilms.com

[mameragex]

THese cameras are a far cry in a shallow dream for me. Saving for another will surely make me go homeless. And I don't think I can fit in my DVX box :) But I do like to drool over the specs you guys provide.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Is this camera released or available yet? I read that it was officially released on July 24th, and now over a month later, not one single rental house in LA has one. Nor is it available for purchase.
Where is it, Jan?!


We have been shipping, but you need to realize, it too was heavily backordered, so it may not be at your favorite dealership and some dealers do not have it in their venue to resell. This camera is available through our Flagship dealers only, which narrows the field of dealers quite a bit, but it is with those dealers that have made their reputation as a "systems" dealer, not "box house<" if you know what I mean.


Anyhow, it does promise to be the upgrade to the SDX900, that many have been waiting for, and even in that seems to kick it up a notch.

Hope this helps,

Jan

[Zig_Zigman]

It looks like a great cam. Jan, sell me one for 17,500!! ;-)

[Neil Rowe]

I've got another issue with Red. How much do you think it will cost to implement Red into your workflow...or rather, how much equipment would you need to buy and upgrade in order to accomodate the Red's series of high resolution images? I'm talking just to load 2K/4K footage into your system to cut. If you offline it, how long will it take to convert the footage into useable clips?


..from what i understand of it at this point, anyone with a respectable HD editing suite would be able to edit the naitive footage off of a RED camera by using REDCODE. there wouldnt really be any additional purchases needed unless you wanted to edit uncompressed for some undecernable to the human eye difference. 2K is essentially the same thing as 1080p for all practical purposes, and 4K with redcode isnt going to choke a decent system when you can edit REDCODE naitive, or simply use the REDCINE software app to convert it to QT or AVI. personally i would just edit the REDCODE naitive as i believe that visibly lossless intraframe wavelet compression is the bees knees.

[Emanuel]

If the SDX900 was/is used for Indy films and it isIt was and it is the best SD example that I saw @big_screen (truly cinematic):
http://www3.ifcfilms.com/theedukators/

EDIT -- great definition (sharp) even SD; colorimeter; latitude and lowlighting properties (I would like to see a 2/3" 1440 x 1080 chip @HVX: it would be an unbeatable offer)

[Neil Rowe]

EDIT -- great definition (sharp) even SD; colorimeter; latitude and lowlighting properties (I would like to see a 2/3" 1440 x 1080 chip @HVX: it would be an unbeatable offer)

you should check out the new HDX900. its pretty much along those lines

[Emanuel]

you should check out the new HDX900. its pretty much along those linesI believe but aside my RED commitment I'm afraid the tape will not be the future. Though there is the FOCUS FireStore FS-100 hard disk recorder. Nevertheless, the purchaser is buying a useless feature (tape recording) if he doesn't believe or doesn't want it. But I think this will be a good option for who is already into the DVCPRO HD format like the broadcast range companies that are handling with this tape format. So, it's more a product thought to the past rather the future.

[fiercecurry]

Any one shot with the HDX900 yet?

[Jan_Crittenden]

Any one shot with the HDX900 yet?

There is a much larger discussion amongst HDX900 owers over on the creativecow under the VariCam forum. It is getting positive reviews.

Best,

jan

[khmuse]

As much as I love the SDX900, I can't wait to get to work with the HDX. I wonder if it is in the rental chain yet?

[The Sarlacc]

I just worked on a 3 day spot for Disneyland using two HDX900s.

Very nice cameras indeed.

[khmuse]

Way cool, I am very envious. I have been hoping to get to work with one for a while now.

Just a bit curious, what glass did you use?

I assume that these were rentals? Do you happen to know what the daily rates were and from which house were they rented?

Would love to see anything that you can share from the shoot.

[The Sarlacc]

Way cool, I am very envious. I have been hoping to get to work with one for a while now.

Just a bit curious, what glass did you use?

I assume that these were rentals? Do you happen to know what the daily rates were and from which house were they rented?

Would love to see anything that you can share from the shoot.


They were both privately owned cameras. One was bought from Abel LA and the other was Abel NY.

The A camera was flying on a steadicam and was using DigiPrimes and a Fuji HD zoom.

The B camera (the one I was assisting with) was using that new Fuji HD zoom and occasional and older Nikon 100-300 lens with a no longer made century optic adapter.

I don't know what rates these guys were giving disney, but I have heard at the rental houses the bodies are going for $650/day.

I have nothing to share. This job was a last minute phone call, and I did it just for some extra spending cash. I was only assisting. You'll most likely see footage when disneyland rolls out their new commercial campaign. It was a 3 days shoot of nothing but B-roll stuff of kids going OHHHHH and AHHHHHHH in different scenarios.

[khmuse]

The DigiPrimes are absolutely stunning, I bet this will look great.

How is the user interface on the HDX compared to the SDX? Similar and intuitive?

Great last minute gig.

[Driven]

I believe but aside my RED commitment I'm afraid the tape will not be the future. Though there is the FOCUS FireStore FS-100 hard disk recorder. Nevertheless, the purchaser is buying a useless feature (tape recording) if he doesn't believe or doesn't want it. But I think this will be a good option for who is already into the DVCPRO HD format like the broadcast range companies that are handling with this tape format. So, it's more a product thought to the past rather the future.

Emmanuel,

How much TV shooting experience (ie. ENG, EFP, run n gun) do you have? Better yet, how much "tape" have you rolled in the past and presently to come to the conclusion that tape recording is a "useless" feature? Pretty bold statement...

[Driven]

Any one shot with the HDX900 yet?

Yes!
One great feature: SD video out!

[fromtheflamesproductions]

WOW that sounds pretty sweet!

[Illya Friedman]

HDX900 are available for rent at Dalsa Digital Cinema.

Feel free to call for a quote.

Best,

[kgg]

Its already in the rental chain in vancouver canada--sooner than I expected. I have been waiting to shoot a project and its taken so long that my choices have gone from DVX to HVX. I was considering an SDX but now I am considering this. But then there is the HPX 2100 coming soon...

[Zig_Zigman]

What is the rental rate?

Don't buy it, just rent it. Tape is cheap. Should be a great cam. Footage will be easy to edit.

[kgg]

The canadian rental rate at this one location is..$350 a day, $1050 for 4 days, $1400 for a week, and a weekend is $525. Of course I am ignoring insurance and whatever other paraphenalia is required. It just says the camera. By comparison, the HVX rents for $250/$750/$1000 and $375 for the camera.


I definitely wouldnt be buying one. Renting is the way I planned to go.

[Emanuel]

I believe but aside my RED commitment I'm afraid the tape will not be the future. Though there is the FOCUS FireStore FS-100 hard disk recorder. Nevertheless, the purchaser is buying a useless feature (tape recording) if he doesn't believe or doesn't want it. But I think this will be a good option for who is already into the DVCPRO HD format like the broadcast range companies that are handling with this tape format. So, it's more a product thought to the past rather the future.Emmanuel,

How much TV shooting experience (ie. ENG, EFP, run n gun) do you have? Better yet, how much "tape" have you rolled in the past and presently to come to the conclusion that tape recording is a "useless" feature? Pretty bold statement...I didn't say exactly what seems that pretty bold statement (reading your claim but not my post fairly quoted by you -- please pay attention to the "if" there). Even if the tapeless route will not be only the future but the next one. I said this will be the better option to any HD purchase for those don't work with the tape formats already known. People like myself coming from the film side without any interest in any next obsolete medium like the tape will be IMHO. As it's possible to find from my own words: «But I think this will be a good option for who is already into the DVCPRO HD format like the broadcast range companies that are handling with this tape format». So I can just sum your own conclusions aren't fair, as well your provocative invective. Anyway, here is my clear up.

EDIT -- JFYI, I'm also a former TV (national and international broadcaster) producer with taxes paid.

EDIT2 -- I just received a PM from a friend to point me to the archive perspective. Maybe there it can be a different scenario, I believe. But I was referring on the capture department to any possible acquisition nowadays and investment step related. And once again quoting myself: «(...) if he doesn't believe or doesn't want it».

[jonahlee]

The HDX900 seems like the perfect camera for documentary type production, or the movie behind the scenes stuff I normally work on, which requires much more footage than an HVX200 could handle. I am looking forward to checking this camera out at NAB.

[shadowProd]

We just shot NBC's first online drama - "Coastal Dreams" - with two HDX900's. Check it out at NBC.com/Coastal Dreams. Love the camera!

[Spartacus]

The WorldWideWeb was limited to the US again...

[Jeremy Productions]

All the major camera manufacturers have succeeded in flooding the market with a lot of different cameras and formats. What is the consensus out here? I know there are many who are gungho on the HV format, but let's take a moment to really understand HD. The HV cameras are not true HD cameras. It's like putting Aunt Jemima maple syrup on pancakes. Read the ingredients since when does artificial flavor fool the real thing from Vermont!!!??? I'm not saying that the HDX 900 or HD XD cam are true HD formats, but they're certainly much closer to 4:4:4 format than the toys Sony, Panasonic and JVC are pawning off for $3,500-$4,500. Now that I've voiced my opinion, who can really explain the advantages between the HDX 900, HD XD Cam and HPX 2000 or 3000? It's easy to get lost over tech specs, but anyone with true practical use with all 3 formats can answer?

[cheezweezl]

well i'm no technical expert but i do know that footage being broadcast on hd channels comes from a wide variety of cameras including the cheaper hdv cams. obviously the more cash you spend buys you goodies like bigger chips and better compression. i shoot mostly on the hvx but i have shot on the hdx900. the biggest difference to me is the image quality. the bigger chips produce nicer images. the 900 also requires a lot less light which is nice. most of my projects go to broadcast. i am not involved in the process to conform the stuff i output to whatever the network needs but i have given them everything from quicktime to hdv tape to the large dvcpro tapes from the 900 and they have never griped. my guess is they are used to being handed many different hd formats and they are all valid really. at least for now...

i wouldn't underestimate the $3000-$5000 "toys" as you call them. they are all over tv and film. maybe look at this trend as a possible escape from the need to have an $80,000 camera to be able to do anything serious.

[Barry_Green]

HDX900 and HPX2000 is an easy one to compare: they're the same camera, the difference is the HDX900 records to tape and the HPX2000 records to P2. But the HPX2000 can look much better than the HDX900 because the HPX2000 can use the AVC-Intra codec.

HPX3000 is the top of Panasonic's line, a 1080P camcorder with a 1080p sensor and AVC-Intra recording. It's as HD as any HD camcorder gets.

XDCAM doesn't have a 2/3" camera in their lineup yet. They're supposed to offer one maybe this fall(?) but at a cost of $37,000. The existing XDCAM camcorders are all 1/2" chips.

[moviemaker999]

Based on preliminary specs the new xdcam 2/3 is being held back and will only allow for interlaced recording.