M2 and DVX edge-to-edge sharpness?

[HansK]

I would be interested to know if there are any Redrock M2 and DVX owners that have achieved edge-to-edge sharpness with their setup. By sharpness I mean using a focus chart and you are able to maintain a consistent sharpness across the entire frame.

If you answer yes then please post your setup. Tell us the distance from the front edge of the achromat to the back edge of the M2 (the body not the rubber hood or filter). Then the Zoom and Focus values.

Thanks!

[HansK]

Hmm, nobody?

[taubkin]

Honestly, I don't see what's the big deal about it.

from this,

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4667/plane0ya.jpg

You can see some small edge softness (look for it in the grass). I probably could get by zooming in further.

I'm at Z81 F31-32. But I don't see the need for it. As I said, I use it like a filter, to stilyze the image. It desn't look like 35mm, or like anything else. But everybody who sees the results seem to find them beautiful... (I'm not saying this shot above is beautiful, by the way...)

[HansK]

Honestly, I don't see what's the big deal about it. For some shots it's nice to have edge-to-edge sharpness. For example, close up shots. It really stinks having a portion of an actors face go soft when it's in the same focus plane as the rest of the face.

I agree that having softness at the edges can add to the effect and provide a nice look.

Also, you compare using the adaptor to using a filter. The problem though is that you can remove a filter during shooting if you don't like the look. With an adaptor you don't have that option.

As for posting this poll, I am interested in finding those that do achieve the sharpness and if so how they are accomplishing it. There's a thread in the HVX section about sharpness and the M2 that's helped now to narrow this problem down. Sadly, there a many variables involved with setting up and using an adaptor. Getting them all to add up is tricky.

[bvalente]

Setup is definitely an important part of achieving edge to edge sharpness and the difference between a good and great image. We have seen really fantastic sharp images edge to edge. And we've seen some average stuff as well. Just like any piece of equipment, it takes low effort to achieve good results. and more effort to achieve stuff that's superb.

Redrock is already doing two things to assist our customers:

1. We are just finishing up a greatly improved video-based tutorial on how setup. This will also be provided as a DVD for future orders (and made available to existing customers as well)

2. We have training classes in the works (first one slated for LA) where people see firsthand how to get the most from the camera + M2 combination.

[sukram]

Maybe someone else can comment better on this but...

I seems like the edge softness correlates to the lenses used. A $1000 zoom still lens (nikon, sigma, etc.) WILL breathe, and it won't be completely sharp edge to edge. These lenses were never designed for motion pictures. Using still lenses, still prime lenses will surpass still zoom lenses any day. What I would like to hear are those people who have used the M2 and a set of Zeiss primes, or any prime with a PL mount for that matter (basically any lens worth around $4,000 and up). That for me will be the test of whether or not the M2 works well (which I think it does). Mini35's almost always rent with Cooke or Zeiss lenses, and the results of that system are pretty good. Again, its a reflection of the lens, not the adapter. Imagine an Angenieux zoom, but of course those are $20,000 and up....

Just a thought - any one have the M2 with a PL mount?

markus

[Noel Evans]

Yes good point Markus. I got the best quality Canon FD primes I could find, and they look pretty good (well I think so).

Ziess prime footage would be great.

[redrock]

Lens quality plays a HUGE role in edge to edge shapness as well does user setup. The new DVD and training classes will help obtain superb images much quicker.

[escozooz]

How come I haven't heard about this training stuff at the Redrock forum?

:kali: :kali: :crybaby:

[bvalente]

Training class "in the works" so it will be officially announced shortly with dates and times.

Thanks

[HansK]

Brian/redrock - Thanks for adding your comments.

As for lens quality, I agree. But one of the issues I have noticed is a problem with the edge sharpness when focusing on the GG. Here's the technique I have used:

1. Loosen the rail mounts for the DVX and the M2.
2. Align DVX and M2 on the rails by resting the M2, minus rubber hood, against the achromat.
3. Tighten DVX to rails.
4. Slide M2 back and add the rubber hood.
5. Slide M2 to DVX and place rubber hood around achromat lip (as shown in redrock forums).
6. Tighten M2 to rails.

Next, I begin the process of setting back focus:

1. Lens from M2 is removed.
2. Attach production monitor to DVX
3. Turn on DVX and aim it at a bright light source
4. Adjust iris so the image is not blown out
5. Adjust zoom so that only the GG is shown
6. Begin adjusting focus so that grain of GG is sharp (EVF DTL turned on)

At this point is where I begin to note the difficulty in getting edge-to-edge sharpness. I am able to get the middle extremely sharp but with the edges a bit soft. As I slowly adjust focus I can see the edges moving in and out of focus at a different rate than the center. The edge softness occurs evenly so it doesn't appear to be an alignment issue. Also, since we are focusing only with the DVX and the achromat, this isn't an issue of 35mm lens quality.

I have also tried moving the M2 unit closer or farther from the DVX, tried various zoom values, and it doesn't help. Actually, zooming too far will make it worse.

To get the best image I find the norm between the sharpest middle image and the sharpest edge image. Then I adjust the focus with a slight bias towards a sharper middle.


Brian - I would like to know what I may be doing wrong or that I am doing everything correct. And is it really possible with the DVX100a and current M2 design to actually get edge-to-edge sharpness?

Thanks again for any help.

[bvalente]

HanSK:

Yes of course you can achieve edge sharpness. You are on the right path, but not quite there.

The new video tutorials on setup and backfocus are released on our customer support forums now - I recommend you go there and get the rest of the steps to setting up.




Brian

[peter orland]

video tutorials on setup and backfocus are released on our customer support forums now - I recommend you go there and get the rest of the steps to setting up.Brian

Does anyone know if these are still available? Did they help in fine tuning the M2?

[sink]

yup they are still there, and yes they help to a point. you'll still need to monkey with it...

[peter orland]

yup they are still there, and yes they help to a point. you'll still need to monkey with it...

Thanks. Do you have link?

[sink]

you need to be a member to see them, and you need to be an owner to be a member... get it?

[jpsheets]

Seeing how this thread is now a year old, what happened to those training classes?

[TimurCivan]

Brian has there been any evolution of the Redrock M2 adapter? Any new upgrades or refinements?

[cheezweezl]

the edge problem comes and goes for me. i have no idea why either. i have done every alignment trick and followed the video tut's to the letter. some days it's great, some days not so great. i have chalked it up to karma and on days when the edges are soft, i think it's the film gods telling me that i should frame everything in the center... i'm kidding of course. most of the time it's not enough to worry about but it has gotten me in hot water more than once. i'm exploring my options.... brevis maybe

[Noel Evans]

Want to add my 2c as this thread continues. I did a lot of work with my m2 to get it right. Thats not saying anything against the unit, in actual fact I find it a pleasure to use now.

I dont get a lot of time to shoot my personal project due to work commitments. So having limited time I dont want to go to a shoot waste a lot of time setting up the adapter - thats my time for rehearsing the camera moves, making sure ive made the right lens choices.

So there's the reason I spent a lot of time "getting to know the m2". Setting up quickly etc. The biggest thing I did was pull my m2 apart to realign a slight wobble in the gg. The pin that inserts in the mount on the ground glass is circular, the small screws that tighten it down are flat. This means that there can be play in rotation. Following instructions I found in another thread I tightened, loosend, tightened and loosend again for about 2 hours. Finally I got it perfectly even - no wobble - nice edge to edge sharpness. In fact I was utterly impressed by the images I was getting.

[jpsheets]

Hi Ncje,

Interesting- I've heard a lot of people have moved the actual motor up or down as well. Do you have any pics you could post of what you adjusted?

thanks!

JP

[bvalente]

Hi everyone

We did run a few sessions in the hollywood area over the past 8 months. Very well attended. Our online tutorials seem to be doing the trick for a lot of folks, but we are spending our time updating them with the latest setup tips.

The most obvious addition to the M2 we are working on is the microX - it is an optional accessory for the image flip (some cameras like the HD200 do not require it) and works with existing M2 adapters (I know I know, everyone may already know this, but just in case :) ).

Cheezweezl - Why don't you stop by sometime and we can take a look at your rig. Getting focus and then not sounds like there may be something amiss with your rig.

Cheers

Brian