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View Full Version : RED competition @$12,500/$20,000 range



Emanuel
04-18-2006, 05:42 AM
And what about that?

key features
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/key_features.html

pics & footage available (!)
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_stillimages.html
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_footage.html (now updated)

[EDIT]

LINK1 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=523506&postcount=7)

LINK2 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=523435&postcount=1) (behind the scenes)

both added by Malcomx52

LINK3 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=53838) -- the "official" Silicon Imaging link @dvxuser.com where Jason Rodriguez from SI and David Newman from Cineform, they are posting.

LINK4 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=53886) -- There is some interesting discussion around here with the excellent contribution of the Silicon Imaging/Cineform Team.

PS -- This thread, as well other ones, they were opened @RED_forum and afterwards they were joined @this_helpful_sub-forum in order to carry on the info delivery about this/these new product(s).

MarcusX
04-18-2006, 06:40 AM
Competition is good, the demo footage is not.
Maybe it's an early prototype, but most HVX/XL1 footage I saw looked better.

RomanJaquez
04-18-2006, 08:39 AM
The footage was not the best I've seen from an HD camera... specially, I noticed a slight shift in color that seems to jump every so often... it could be an encoding problem, but it was there.

If you pay attention, on the second clip at 45 seconds into the video, then it happens again 59 seconds into the video, and two more times at 1:19 and 1:24 seconds in time while playing back. I also noticed it on the other video.

I did like the overall picture, my first impression was Wow, but then.. oh! although not the best I've seen, but was pretty good.

DavidBeier
04-18-2006, 10:18 AM
The specs look great, the footage doesn't. The HVX200 and XL H1 both look a lot more pleasing to my eye.

Zack Birlew
04-18-2006, 04:56 PM
Well, the thing that will hurt it right off the bat is no FCP support.

RED sounds like it's universal in regards to NLE's. But then again, what else do we know about RED besides early specs and a few workflow solutions? This camera can go down to about a $12,000 package, will the RED be able to compete? If it's less than $30,000 and for what it is, it could still be VERY competitive with this new camera. But realistically, any higher would put it out of most people's ranges, even more than $20,000 is pushing it.

It's gonna be a long wait until Monday.:thumbsup:

Jarred Land
04-18-2006, 05:56 PM
It's gonna be a long wait until Monday.:thumbsup:

yeah.. i swear those seconds on the front page go half as fast as they should. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=75

Nik Manning
04-19-2006, 12:03 AM
Well is it to early to say "Is this the red killer"?
Man this concept is what people were really asking for. I mean edit 10 bit 1080p24 without expensive raid. Store 4 hours of 1080p on one 160gb hardrive. Actually I might be more excited about the workflow than the camera but the truth is this is revolutionary. The HVX200 woud be killer if it had a 160gb hardrive built in/hotswappable. P2 is great for early adopters but man this cam is great now for everyone.
12k-20k gets you--

Slow-Motion shots can be captured at speeds up to 72fps in 720P mode, 3-times 24P film rate
The Silicon Imaging SI-1920HDVR uses a single large 16:9 format 2/3” CMOS sensor, enabling the use wide aperture optics to achieve a Depth-of-Field similar to S35mm, without the need for ground-glass converters.
10 f-stop dynamic range, a 7” LCD touchscreen interface
and up to 4-hours of continuous shooting on its hot-swap 160GB notebook hard drive.
perform real-time editing of up to 4 1080/24p HD streams, without dropped frames or the need to render

AMAZING Silicon Blue

Cheesesailor77
04-19-2006, 01:10 AM
yep sounds awesome, and I might actually be able to afford it! :D

dan
04-19-2006, 09:40 AM
The Silicon Imaging SI-1920HDVR uses a single large 16:9 format 2/3 CMOS sensor, enabling the use wide aperture optics to achieve a Depth-of-Field similar to S35mm, without the need for ground-glass converters.

Regardless if the sensor is single CMOS or 3 CCD, at 2/3" sensor has the DOF of a 2/3" sensor. There are TONS of cameras out there with 2/3" chips (F900) and none preserves the 35mm DOF of a motion picture camera. Where would the Pro35 come to play if they would?
The DOF of a 2/3" sensor using a prime lens (wide open @1.3) will be similar to the corresponding prime @4-5.6 on a 35mm film camera.
That does not mean in any way that the rest of the features are not there and I would love to try one as soon as they'll become available.

DavidBeier
04-19-2006, 01:24 PM
Well is it to early to say "Is this the red killer"?
Man this concept is what people were really asking for. I mean edit 10 bit 1080p24 without expensive raid. Store 4 hours of 1080p on one 160gb hardrive. Actually I might be more excited about the workflow than the camera but the truth is this is revolutionary. The HVX200 woud be killer if it had a 160gb hardrive built in/hotswappable. P2 is great for early adopters but man this cam is great now for everyone.
12k-20k gets you--



The HVX200 will get a Cineporter add on later this year with either 160 gigs or 320.

Brandon Rice
04-19-2006, 01:54 PM
The HVX200 will get a Cineporter add on later this year with either 160 gigs or 320.

Really? That's awesome! THe one thing that's kept my iffy on actually using the HVX was having to change out the cards every 6 min.

androbot2084
04-19-2006, 02:22 PM
For a camera top be a Red killer it has to support the 4k format. Remember 4K downconverted to 1080p will allow better shadow and highlight detail. And very few cameras can shoot 1080p at 60 frames per secound. JVC and Olympus have experimental 4k cameras but the price is unknown. Dalsa and Panavision 4k cameras are priced to high to be a Red killer. A box 4k camera exists for sale but I do not know the price.

The naysayers will tell you that 4k is not needed because 35mm film resolves at 12 megapixels. But this is the resolution of the negative and the print is only 3 megapixels of resolution. Thus 4k digital cinema should be a big improvement to what we are used to watching in the movie theatre.

roxics
04-19-2006, 02:58 PM
What is the resolution of the RED in megapixels? Isn't it 11.5 or something at it's 4K setting?
For that matter what is the resolution at 2K?

I don't like all this 2k, 4k stuff. I like hearing things in megapixels.

I wonder how the other more conventional companies will deal with RED once it's out. I mean if Jim can build the technology they can too, it's just a matter of if they want to. Competition could be real good.

ESTEBEVERDE
04-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Well is it to early to say "Is this the red killer"?
Man this concept is what people were really asking for. I mean edit 10 bit 1080p24 without expensive raid. Store 4 hours of 1080p on one 160gb hardrive. Actually I might be more excited about the workflow than the camera but the truth is this is revolutionary. The HVX200 woud be killer if it had a 160gb hardrive built in/hotswappable. P2 is great for early adopters but man this cam is great now for everyone.
12k-20k gets you--

Slow-Motion shots can be captured at speeds up to 72fps in 720P mode, 3-times 24P film rate
The Silicon Imaging SI-1920HDVR uses a single large 16:9 format 2/3 CMOS sensor, enabling the use wide aperture optics to achieve a Depth-of-Field similar to S35mm, without the need for ground-glass converters.
10 f-stop dynamic range, a 7 LCD touchscreen interface
and up to 4-hours of continuous shooting on its hot-swap 160GB notebook hard drive.
perform real-time editing of up to 4 1080/24p HD streams, without dropped frames or the need to render

AMAZING Silicon Blue

Sounds Great!

I am very interested in how it will pan out.

Will it be as good as it's specs? Better? Short?

Again, the idea is grand.

It has to be dreamed before it can be put into action.

But, that's were the Devil is.

In the details. :)

androbot2084
04-19-2006, 03:08 PM
The 4k resolution of red is around 4000 x 2500 or 10 megapixels. Full blown 2k 1080p is 1920x 1080 which is about 2 megapixels.

roxics
04-19-2006, 04:50 PM
I thought 1080p was condsidered 1K and 2K was higher resolution?

Barry_Green
04-19-2006, 05:12 PM
2K is 2048x1556 for the 4:3 frame.

Daniel Skubal
04-19-2006, 05:44 PM
2K is 2048x1556 for the 4:3 frame.

Really? I always thought it was the verticle number that indicated the resolution.

640x480 is considered 480, same with 720 and 1080. Any idea why they changed at 2k?

Barry_Green
04-19-2006, 06:09 PM
The other resolutions are video resolutions, 2K isn't video, it's the resolution of a frame scan. 2K = 2048 in computer-speak.

Daniel Skubal
04-19-2006, 06:11 PM
Ah, so is that a resolution film can be scanned in at?

Thanks for the info, never knew that. :)

Barry_Green
04-19-2006, 06:17 PM
A resolution, yes. There's also 4k, and then there are different res's depending on what aspect ratio you shot in. 2048x1556 is for a 4:3 full-frame scan, but if you shot 2.35 or 1.85 you wouldn't need all that vertical height, so you might specify 2048x1080 for a 1.85 scan, for example.

dan
04-19-2006, 06:31 PM
The 4k resolution of red is around 4000 x 2500 or 10 megapixels
Could you please post a link or a reference source where you got this information?

hawaj
04-20-2006, 08:04 PM
look here for real pictures of hardware :D

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=54264

SalaTar
04-20-2006, 08:32 PM
I assume Red will have the cash to bring proto to market before Silicon Imaging

Cheesesailor77
04-20-2006, 11:35 PM
ewwww, thats the ugliest thing ever, oh well, I'll still get it if it does what they say :)

(and if RED is too much)

Forrest Schultz
04-20-2006, 11:57 PM
Why is everyone speaking as if the Silconimaging camera isnt built yet? those specs arent of the camera they wish to build, its of the camera they HAVE built. THey have even shot footage with it and posted it. One of the guys working on the camera is making a movie with it. The solution is done, its real. As far as a camera body to hold all the stuff. Well they will show that at NAB. Also, from what ive heard, Silicon Imaging will have a working model there. they wont be taking orders just yet though. But RED is gonna have a non-working model. so im not sure it RED is going to finish the process first, because siliconimaging has already done everything. But RED is sure gonna be a sick-ass camera, and top the siliconimaging camera no doubt by a long shot. It just wont be finished by NAB

Jarred Land
04-21-2006, 12:14 AM
Why is everyone speaking as if the Silconimaging camera isnt built yet? those specs arent of the camera they wish to build, its of the camera they HAVE built. THey have even shot footage with it and posted it. One of the guys working on the camera is making a movie with it. The solution is done, its real. As far as a camera body to hold all the stuff. Well they will show that at NAB. Also, from what ive heard, Silicon Imaging will have a working model there. they wont be taking orders just yet though. But RED is gonna have a non-working model. so im not sure it RED is going to finish the process first, because siliconimaging has already done everything. But RED is sure gonna be a sick-ass camera, and top the siliconimaging camera no doubt by a long shot. It just wont be finished by NAB

Last year the SI woulda killed the show... people would have gone nuts. Birds would sing and babies would be conceived. ... This year.. I dunno.. for some reason it just feels as exciting as someone announcing a really really cool SD camera.

Forrest Schultz
04-21-2006, 12:28 AM
Yeah, i know what you mean Jarred, i was just commenting about the people who posted saying "its a cool concept" "when they build" and i was thinking, they already did

I know what you mean about the hype. It seems really low key, no ones shouting hallejuah over it. I think a big part of it is RED. And i know your holding back alot of information too. If you werent, youd be squeezing your dong and praying like the rest of us. Spill the beans Jarred! what do you know.

you dont have to answer that, im just curious to see whats behind the curtain.

Emanuel
04-21-2006, 02:22 AM
To the agnostics & company, the sample footage gallery it is now updated:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=519972&postcount=1


Competition is good, the demo footage is not.
Maybe it's an early prototype, but most HVX/XL1 footage I saw looked better.

avocade
04-21-2006, 06:50 AM
From what I gathered on their website, this is one helluva camera. And one big difference between the SI and the RED camera is that the latter is still vaporware in practice, albeit not in theory. I have no doubt from reading up on it that RED is going to make a huge splash on Monday, but the SI looks really, really good on its own.

Check out the Duck Variations 2.wmv footage. It's got nice detail and some cute grain. The image just looks very pleasing to the eye. And the workflow... it seems _very_ solid. In the forums they mention full platform agnosticism by the time of release in Q3 '06, so no ph34ring for the Mac:ers (of which I'm a proud one).

Lusting for either of those cameras with the RAW workflow and a brand new MacBook Pro for next spring... '06-'07 are going to be two great for Apple and the indie film industry!

donatello
04-21-2006, 09:43 AM
the SI camera is a working camera. they are presenting a complete workflow using 10bit true 1920x1080 4:2:2 raw camera file workflow. uses swapable inexpensive 2 1/2 " laptop drives . your choice of lens mounts ... raid drives not required ... to stay in the 10bit RAW files you must work within premiere/AE ( adobe studio) ..currently PC based and cineform hopes to have a QT solution by Q3 06.

color space will introduce either a camera or spec's of a camera and their workflow in camera and thru post with a product called SCRATCH ( note that on scratches site they claim to be providing work flow solution for RED )
NOTE: scratch workflow is PC not mac !!! USCSI 320 or faster required , DUAL processor required.

RED will introduce their spec's , and probably few-several workflows and maybe more important ? to just about every person here and beyond a suggested PRICE !! IMO that price will have an affect on all the "buzz" at all other camera booths.

so one will have to choose more then just the camera - you'll have to look at workflow too ..

SalaTar
04-21-2006, 08:46 PM
From what I gathered on their website, this is one helluva camera. And one big difference between the SI and the RED camera is that the latter is still vaporware in practice, albeit not in theory.

I think the minds behind RED are aware and may surprise us Monday with a viable Working Proto if not a rev. a limited production working camera at a higher cost for the ones that need it.
Good PR too

Emanuel
04-21-2006, 11:08 PM
In the forums they mention full platform agnosticism by the time of release in Q3 '06And also as press release everywhere and also@major_ones: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6363.html

microbob
04-27-2006, 09:06 AM
I think the minds behind RED are aware and may surprise us Monday with a viable Working Proto if not a rev. a limited production working camera at a higher cost for the ones that need it.
Good PR too

Did anyone see a working prototype or any footage from RED?

Zack Birlew
04-27-2006, 08:06 PM
Nope, no working prototypes or R&D test footage or anything like that. They did have some Super 16mm film footage to show an example of what we'll be seeing, they aim for it to be better than Super 16 of course, but it was something to show and wasn't a main attraction.

The non-working prototypes were all they had. They don't expect footage until the late-summer/early-fall range.

Ari Presler
04-29-2006, 08:47 PM
Anyone interested?

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/Thumbnails/Bellagio_1.jpg

Emanuel
04-29-2006, 09:08 PM
Thanks Ari!

EDIT -- I'm in the RED reservation list (#111) but for sure I will follow your product -- as well, your achievements.

Ari Presler
04-29-2006, 09:12 PM
There are posted in the GALLERY:

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_footage.html


http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/Thumbnails/Flamingo_1.jpg

dan
04-29-2006, 09:55 PM
Gorgeus and inspiring.

Ari Presler
04-30-2006, 11:27 PM
This clip is from Wednesday night at the CML shotout:

http://siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/Thumbnails/CML.jpg

Ari Presler
05-08-2006, 08:53 PM
Studio Daily has produced a comprehensive look at the Silicon Imaging SI-1920 D-Cinema Camera and Cineform RAW Workflow demonstration and IN OPERATION at NAB2006!!!

http://www.studiodaily.com/images/studiodaily/header_logo.gif

Some Like It Raw
May 8, 2006 Source: Studio Daily

It's not enough to develop a camera anymore, Silicon Imaging is defining a workflow, leveraging compression and metadata to maintain color space.

Click below to watch the video:

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news...ines/6536.html


If you have any interest in the camera, this is a must see full featured, techno colored presentation...

Ari Presler
05-29-2006, 09:54 PM
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/320/001.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/1600/001.jpg)


ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_...VR/web_001.wmv (ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_clips/SI1920HDVR/web_001.wmv)
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/320/003.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/1600/003.jpg)

ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_...VR/web_003.wmv (ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_clips/SI1920HDVR/web_003.wmv)


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/320/004.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5740/974/1600/004.jpg)
ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_...VR/web_004.wmv (ftp://www.atomic-vfx.com/spoon_test_clips/SI1920HDVR/web_004.wmv)


Some quotes from the Blog:

"The shoot is going extremely well. Thanks to everyone who has made it so. This format is turning out to be ideal for our comic strip style film. The look is unique falling between film and video. It is soft yet clear - video without the video edging we all hate. The beauty shots are great - the make-up reads better than other hd formats (it's more like film).

We've shot varying conditions. The darker areas are holding up but there is nothing to beat this camera in good light. I will try and give two clips today at least - one with school yard bench scene in strong light and a darker industrial shot.

Despite the fact that these camera heads are prototypes they are working really well. We had some static build up issues (at least i think that's what they were) first when I booted up the second camera head after transportation and again when shooting Daniel's soaked apartment. These sort themselves out when ground is properly done and when the head "settles down".

We've shot close on 40 hours of footage (probably too much but to have the coverage is great). Both close personal performance stuff and a fair bit of action. Both are great. The action stuff has a really unique real feeling while remaing very filmic (not videolike).

We've shot a lot with zooms for efficiency but the fast 16mm primes are the way to go if you have time. Much more light and hence data gets through."


-------------------------
"Shoot it with Silicon"


Does anyone want some Silicon to use for their next project?

Comments?

donatello
06-05-2006, 01:13 PM
"This clip is from Wednesday night at the CML shotout:"

so what were the results of the CML shootout ??

i took a look at the stills from ALL the camera's and they ALL look terrible ! ( looks more like technical problems with the stills not camera's)

Ari Presler
06-05-2006, 01:38 PM
Scott Billups saw the Film out tests and was pleased with the results. We have the clips in our gallery on the website.

http://siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Images/Thumbnails/CML.jpg


CML Party Sample Shot
Windows Media HD (http://siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Gallery/CML_01.wmv)(43MB)
Uncompressed Quicktime (http://siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Gallery/CML_Uncompressed.mov)(8-bit, 970MB)
RAW File (http://siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Gallery/Stills/SI-1920.dng)(DNG)

filmmaker1977
06-13-2006, 12:06 PM
hey ari, where's the billups comment?

Ari Presler
06-13-2006, 12:11 PM
He was there at the shoot and gave us some verbal feedback!