My 2 cents on this Discovery Channel HVX200 ""nonsense"".

[PappasArts]

I usually don't come over to this area much and post. For the most part I hang out
in another area on DVXuser that I like to call Fox Moulders office- aka "the basement" known as "Other Cameras". However one post stood
out to me and irritated me profusely, so I wanted to respond to it!

Ok, so Discovery channel won't except material from the HVX200 someone posted, and its lens is not good enough. hmmm- Ok!
I don't know anyone at Discovery, however find this absolutely ridiculous.

Why?

Well, having been lucky to see a HVX200 35mm film-out projected on a 25 foot plus screen at Laser Pacific Hollywood
with an awesome image and excellent lens performance makes me wonder how the hell it could not be good enough for
a consumer 40" + HD tv's at home.

Think about this one for a second.

HVX200 Footage was transferred to 35mm Film. Not even the best mode on the HVX200 was used- it was 720P material.
The HVX is even better at 1080P because of the smaller macro blocks and the resolution convergence factor.

So if it could hold up on a big 35mm print; then a tiny tv in comparison
is no issue for the HVX200..

Another point- The resolution and color space of 35mm film is far far more demanding and superior
to any HD broadcast is capable of transmitting.

Anybody that is actually is listening to that discovery story. Take it with a giant size grain of salt. I have
seen the real torture test of the HVX200, and that was it being projected 25ft + beyond any home HD viewing system.

I wouldn't have one problem - issue - qualm with HVX200's image for shooting a film........

Just my 2 cents on this matter~


Now I'm going back to the basement where I came from and look at more ufo/alien photos!



Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts

[SPZ]

Pappas? I tought you where abducted! You just came for the season special, didn't you? (yeah we need the ratings :) )

[zoostory]

I like the yogurt machine and prime rib at Laser Pacific!

[Jarred Land]

Yeah as has been happening for the last 5 or so years, people will just uprez or transfer whatever footage they have onto HDCAM and pretend they used 900s. There is no real way to tell, as the whole processing in post can add or subtract apparent resolution anyways.

[SUBFRAME]

I'm afraid I understand the Discovery position about HVX but I think that the big problem for them is more the P2 theme that the lenses or any other (in fact I think that someone said that they use the dvx for SD projects, so the lens...) For great companies and corporations it is really, really hard to change how they work and their methods. I see it here, in little companies, run in extremly complicate and surreal circles to get something that is more simple and quick to get in a more direct and logical path.
I don't know.. maybe they are a lot of people and can't train to all at the same time, maybe the people at the top of the company don't know anything about video, only about economic (very usual) and nobody can make them understand how the P2 works (they have to pass for DVXUSER or send them to the HVXBootCamp with Barry and Jarred :) )

But well, that was always the advantage of the little insects: we can evolution more quickly and easy than the great dinosaurs so we can survive to the great changes...:nads:

But, of course: if we want to send to Discovery some material, send them in a "serious format" (HDCAM, Betacam... SONY) and make them happy.

[pmark23]

It looks like our project will be shot on a Panasonic HDC20A and HVX200. My feeling is that after editing and post nobody will be able to tell which camera shot what.

They okay'd DVCPROHD as the delivery format.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

I know the guys at Discovery and their objectives are pretty clear, they want to maintain the highest viewing quality for their TV audience. The did not reject the HVX just like they did not reject the HDV. The reason they limit the amount of the footage is that they like the look of the 2/3" cameras. I mean American Choppers is shot on a VariCam. The problem that any of these specialty networks have is when they say that they will accept something from a smaller camera, the danger, they feel, is that with that will come lower production value. While I know that is not true, they have seen it even when they ask for the HDCAM or Varicam.

So I do believe if you are awarded a project with them you can work it out on a case by case, just like the guys did with the History channel project.

The Quality of the product starts with the eye behind the camera.

Best,

Jan

[brianluce]

how would they even know what camera it was shot on? do they ask?

[HVXguy]

Hi,

I know the guys at Discovery and their objectives are pretty clear, they want to maintain the highest viewing quality for their TV audience. The did not reject the HVX just like they did not reject the HDV. The reason they limit the amount of the footage is that they like the look of the 2/3" cameras. I mean American Choppers is shot on a VariCam. The problem that any of these specialty networks have is when they say that they will accept something from a smaller camera, the danger, they feel, is that with that will come lower production value. While I know that is not true, they have seen it even when they ask for the HDCAM or Varicam.

So I do believe if you are awarded a project with them you can work it out on a case by case, just like the guys did with the History channel project.

The Quality of the product starts with the eye behind the camera.

Best,

Jan

I second what Jan said!! I have seen poorly shot programs using Cine Altas, I have seen fantastic shows shot with 8mm film.
Remember the old story of the highly paid fashion photographer?
All the young guns use to mock him and said the only reason he did such great work was because he had the best cameras and lenses that money could buy. So the photographer heard this and said OK you are all invited to my next show in a few weeks. At the show the young photographers were saying see the work is fantastic and I could do work like that if I had his equipment.....
So the photographer said you can and here is my equipment....
He pulled out a $10 disposable camera he bought at Wal-Mart........

[jeffyjones]

Why did this need a new topic?

Anyway, I think it has been made pretty clear that just because they say it, doesn't mean they'll stick by it 100%. Good content is good content.

Besides, I see people with HDTV doing the same thing they did with NTSC, color cranked and super red, just like your grandparents' TV! Quality is relative.

[xray]

The documentaries and filmprojects that used the HVX did that as a "B" cam, for inserts. Panasonic also mentioned it as being a B cam next to the Varicam. Look at the list with projects and people who worked with the HVX. So anyhow just a portion will end up in the editing, and the final result will meet the Discovery standards.

I like that detailed long shots in wild life films Discovery is broadcasting and is archiving for future use.

[hotchkiss]

How many times has anyone else experienced this:

You show someone a project shot on a DVX 100A (previously, now a HVX apparently) with the same production standards that would be used with a higher end camera, and they are blown away. You then tell them that it was shot with the !00A , and they are astonished that it wasn't shot with a Betacam, SDX-900 or -fill in blank.

The irony of course, is that it's these same folks who will send you out with a cheap Velbon tripod to go with their DV camera, but there Beta package has a Sachtler. Their reasoning: "but it's a DV shoot"...

The point being is that a good part of the industry, certainly many folks who should know better, have two sets of production standards- one for DV and one for the big cameras. Crappy support gear (usually no lighting) for DV, and the full kit for the big camera. Apparently their is a universal production law that states:

"The support gear of any camera must correllate to the dimensions and weight of said camera"

They perpetuate the fulfillment of their own limited understanding of what a smaller camera is capable of. And no, I'm not saying that a DV camera is the equivalent or has all of the capabilities of a big camera. I'm just saying that producer types with a DV mindset, usually get the DV footage to match their limited understanding.

This is apparently carrying over to the HVX as well.

Big eye roll, big sigh.

[steindj]

The Quality of the product starts with the eye behind the camera.

And certainly the mind too.:)

[Paul Coleman]

This is apparently carrying over to the HVX as well.

That would be a shame.:thumbdown

[Stevet]

how would they even know what camera it was shot on? do they ask?

That's a vaild question. You would think if you provided the medium requirement, they could screen the footage and decide if it's good enough.

[FatBird19]

How many times has anyone else experienced this:

You show someone a project shot on a DVX 100A (previously, now a HVX apparently) with the same production standards that would be used with a higher end camera, and they are blown away. You then tell them that it was shot with the !00A , and they are astonished that it wasn't shot with a Betacam, SDX-900 or -fill in blank.

The irony of course, is that it's these same folks who will send you out with a cheap Velbon tripod to go with their DV camera, but there Beta package has a Sachtler. Their reasoning: "but it's a DV shoot"...

The point being is that a good part of the industry, certainly many folks who should know better, have two sets of production standards- one for DV and one for the big cameras. Crappy support gear (usually no lighting) for DV, and the full kit for the big camera. Apparently their is a universal production law that states:

"The support gear of any camera must correllate to the dimensions and weight of said camera"

They perpetuate the fulfillment of their own limited understanding of what a smaller camera is capable of. And no, I'm not saying that a DV camera is the equivalent or has all of the capabilities of a big camera. I'm just saying that producer types with a DV mindset, usually get the DV footage to match their limited understanding.

This is apparently carrying over to the HVX as well.

Big eye roll, big sigh.

I concur. Brilliantly said. :)

[PappasArts]

Hi Jan,

I can understand why Discovery wants to maintain a certain level of quality ( which I respectfully disagree with them on this matter ) however I don't understand how the HVX can't be looked at as just another type of look. So it doesn't look like 2/3 cams, is that a bad thing? Hell no, not in my opinion at-least. What's so funny about this; if the HVX footage looks bad, the HVX is automatically blamed, however if a F900 or Varicam looks bad it's the end user.

Well the HVX has the ability to produce an astonishing image. With rich textures and color. Let me tell ya the f900 is a finicky little Bi#ch to tune up to get the right image. If the F900 is not dialed right, the image can and will look mediocre. A lot of people don't know that about the f900's, you can't just turn them on and go, and minor adjustments are not even enough. On the flip side Varicam is much easier to dial in and pull a pleasant image. The HVX in the right hands will make magic, in the wrong hands just simple 24p HD video.

Now compared to the XLH1 the HVX has it beat in rich tones and that's look I like a lot! My H1 is like the F900, that's the
part I dislike about it. It's way to middle of the road imagery and it is tough to pull the right look. The HVX film prints I made were the best in over all look of tone and color! Second was the HD100, third was the H1

With respect to Discovery's position, they should look at the HVX as one would look at a S16 production vs a 35mm production. Both can air without issue, and they both have their own looks. Neither one is worse or better, just different. On that note, the audience has been loving SD all this time, there not going to notice this difference at all. If they do, then the content must suck...

Just my two cents from the other pocket!


Back to the Basement.........


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com






Hi,

I know the guys at Discovery and their objectives are pretty clear, they want to maintain the highest viewing quality for their TV audience. The did not reject the HVX just like they did not reject the HDV. The reason they limit the amount of the footage is that they like the look of the 2/3" cameras. I mean American Choppers is shot on a VariCam. The problem that any of these specialty networks have is when they say that they will accept something from a smaller camera, the danger, they feel, is that with that will come lower production value. While I know that is not true, they have seen it even when they ask for the HDCAM or Varicam.

So I do believe if you are awarded a project with them you can work it out on a case by case, just like the guys did with the History channel project.

The Quality of the product starts with the eye behind the camera.

Best,

Jan

[HVXguy]

I saw a show last night on DCI, Jeremy Piven went to India or somewhere like it, was not sure where, but it looked a lot like Sony HDV. Was it bad?? No, it was different than a CineAlta or any other HD system. The camera work was not great, it was probably a buddy of his and way to pay for a vacation. But the subject matter was compelling enough for me to watch until my wife came in and said enough HD for now!!!

[Mitch_Ives]

Hi,

I know the guys at Discovery and their objectives are pretty clear, they want to maintain the highest viewing quality for their TV audience. The did not reject the HVX just like they did not reject the HDV.

The Quality of the product starts with the eye behind the camera.



Thanks for the info Jan. In the beginning, they did specifically mention the first JVC HDV camera (the 10) by name as being unacceptable. I understood, as it was a one-chip camera. I can also understand that they might have a problem with HDV. My guess, however unscientific, is that the HVX is a dolphin being caught in a tuna net. In time, they may feel different about the HVX.

Since I have been watching Discovery HD on a 65" HDTV since the beginning, I can honestly say that I find the Betacam and other SD footage they incorporate more objectionable than the footage we just shot on the HVX this week.

My .02...

[HowdyDoo]

Pappas, I would like to see some of your HVX footage. The stuff you shot with the H1 and HD100 was great.

And just curious... since you seem to like the HVX, why did you decide to go with the H1 instead?

[TimurCivan]

I think the Discovery channel, isnt so much worried about the HVX producing a poor image, i think the Coporate train of thought is, Company A can afford a 100,000$ camera. Company B acn afford a 5,300$ camera......

Which comapny would i trust my show with?.... WEll Geee... The 100,000 camera company ddiit get there by putting out awful footage....


i think they are more worried about mis trusting thier projects to people who arent neccesarily ready to handle a truly professional production. IE who cant afford "real" equiptment.

[dop16mm]

Producer guidelines tend to be directed toward complete series runs, that the channel owns in perpetuity and pays an absurd amount of money to own the masters. In this case you suck it up and use whatever camera they say.

If you are making a one off on spec with no financing with the hope that some channel may pick it up on completion, use the best you can afford, and put the best quality you can on the screen. If the final product is good and they want it, they will not refuse based on what camera it was shot on, just what format to deliver it on.

In Canada, most specialty channel productions are mini-dv, dvx or pd-150, unless they are multi-cam studio shows. Its a money issue. The small channels don't have any money for licenses so they can't demand Higher production values. Presumably Discovery has lots of money and demand high production values.

[HowdyDoo]

I agree wth Dop166. I spoke with the filmmakers that made the documentary "Spellbound" and they just used 2 XL-1s. And that was nominated for an Academy Award! They filled up their credit cards and then went out and made a FANTASTIC documentary.

[PappasArts]

Funny you say that- I am considering on buying the HVX200 for testing! I love the image that comes from the HVX as I have said before. It has a nice look to work and craft from. There just tools to me, just like film stocks like Agfa- Fuji- Kodak; each one has a great look. Couple that with a P2 Store, and your ready to go! So what is the best price/package bang for the buck at this moment?

Pappas


Pappas, I would like to see some of your HVX footage. The stuff you shot with the H1 and HD100 was great.

And just curious... since you seem to like the HVX, why did you decide to go with the H1 instead?

[Jack_Felis]

*scuttles in*

I didn't know American Choppers was filmed on a Varicam!

*scuttles out*

[dmc]

I agree. Discovery Channel, ike most bigger companies, are looking for ways to protect their interests and their existing relationship base. I simply makes it easier for them to say no when the barrier to entry can be reduced to what sort of camera was used.

As TimurCivan correctly noted: If company A (who they're used to dealing with) can and has in the past, been able to afford F900 originated HD then why switch to an upstart (company B) who can only afford to shoot HVX?


I've sold some rather unique shark footage to them a couple of years ago that was shot on Hi8. Now, granted that was a couple of years ago but I can assure you that Hi8 was not on DC's formal list of approved formats.

Content, content, content.


Just my opinion of course.


: )

dmc

[Volcomjl16]

but how is this possible, when i watch Mythbusters i can see cameramen using PDX10s...