35mm adapter Shootout

[Jarred Land]

Click Here to read the full review (http://dvxuser.com/articles/35/)

[Daniel Skubal]

Good read! Thanks for putting this up!

[Jarred Land]

yeah, norm really went to town.

[mrpunch]

Great info! THANKS EVERYONE!

I've got an SG35 on order, so I'm waiting to see what Wayne is going to do - since the article says that he's discontinuing it and working on an advanced one.

[Brandon Rice]

Great read Norm, thanks for putting that together!

[TimurCivan]

When the new optics come in the sg35 will be much better.

I think it was set up wrong though, cause ive seen lots of footage from it that didnt show thoes gross levels of distortion, and chroma fringing.

oh well i hope not! its coming in the mail any day now.......

[Jeremy Ordan]

Hey Norm,

Glad to see you got the article uploaded. Congrats on a thorough, well thought out, and honest review of two products people have looked extensively at. Great job overall.

Jeremy

[Angrius]

Good job Norm.


I can't say I was really impressed with either adapter. The SG is totally unuseable with the lack of sharpness it produced. Am I correct in saying it was the adapter and not the lens? The letus looked a lot sharper but the image was way too dark.

[seejay1031]

Why was the m2 not included in this shootout? It's under $1000.

[Policar]

I'm liking my G35 beta unit more and more now...

Although it too has its share of issues. The adapters all provide a "flashing" effect that brings the blacks up. Crushing them a tad in post and exposing a stop or stop and a half above where you'd normally expose fixes the noise issue, although you always get unhappily close to blowing highlights. The gamma curve/ light response is different with the GG, and different depending on what the GG is made of.

[235 Studios]

Good job Norm.


I can't say I was really impressed with either adapter. The SG is totally unuseable with the lack of sharpness it produced. Am I correct in saying it was the adapter and not the lens? The letus looked a lot sharper but the image was way too dark.

Yes, it is the adapter, as we used the same lens on both adapters- a Canon 50mm 1.4 lens.

[R Gale]

Why was the m2 not included in this shootout? It's under $1000.

The M2 is a little over $1,000 now with the lens mount, shipping, etc.

I'm curious to see the Cinemek G35 and Redrock M2 reviewed / compared, once the new, vibrating GG version of the G35 is available.
Those adapters are both in the $1,000-$1,300 range, and might be the best value overall, if the quality is much better than these.

Thanks for the great review!

[235 Studios]

Why was the m2 not included in this shootout? It's under $1000.

Norm can correct me if I'm mistaken on this - since he had direct communication with the various venders.

But we did not test the M2 because the vender was not interesed in supplying us with one. Since we were giving this a lot of our time, we did not want to invest a ton of money buying each of the adapters to just test out and compare. And the M2 was just not interested in it. And as mentioned by R Gale, it is now $1000+

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Norm,
A very detailed and fair article. Thanks for you time.

However, the softness and distortion in the images confuse me a little, im thinking the distances have been upset via shipping. I will check this out once i receive the unit back.

As Timur says, the SGpro will use higher quality optics, we hope to test next week with the dvx100 and i'll post up footage, we are very excited.

[bklyndv]

I hope you'd be willing to do a sequel. I'd love to enter the Go35 and Go35HD in a shootout sometime in May. I'd be willing and able by that point to send a pair of units out with lenses if need be. Both will be priced well below $1,000.

Thanks for your hard work -- sorry I didn't have anything done in time to participate :(

- jim

[Norm Sanders]

Hey folks, Ryan just informed me that the article was up.

We'll certainly do a sequel, even if it's only to update this article. Trust me, we want to see this improved as both units we tested are in a way now obsolete. Quyen has already taken some of my feedback & has released the Flip Advanced, which is reported at only having 1.5 stops of light. With that, and the improved GG, and adjustable mirror he's working on, I'm itching to test the new release.

Also, Wayne's taken a couple of my notes & is including those improvements in the SG35 Pro, in addition to all the other things he was already addressing with it. I'm confident that "something" did get adjusted in shipping, as I can't imagine that people have been getting excited about what we experienced with it ... on the flip side, I hoping the new unit ships better, as no one wants to receive a unit that's "shifted" during shipping & experiences issues with.

Setting up the SG35 isn't rocket science, and is actually pretty straight forward, so it wasn't an issue in the set up. Though there were more steps & parts to take into account during set up, vs. the Flip which was litterally just screw it on, attach the lens & you're ready to go.

Also, if we do another test, we'll take some extra time to get the best images possible with it, which may require different camera settings for each unit ... vs. this test where we kept everything on a flat line playing field and simply wanted to see the comparisons between the units for pros & cons, etc.

Glad to hear people are finding it a good read & insightful.

[235 Studios]

I hope you'd be willing to do a sequel. I'd love to enter the Go35 and Go35HD in a shootout sometime in May. I'd be willing and able by that point to send a pair of units out with lenses if need be. Both will be priced well below $1,000.

Thanks for your hard work -- sorry I didn't have anything done in time to participate :(

- jim


As Norm said, we'd gladly do a sequel. As for timing, it would have to be after May, as we are focusing our efforts on the DVX Fest. Once that is done, then we could devote the time required to do another shootout.

[Wayne Kinney]

Thanks great work Norm, thanks for your time.
I will keep you informed via PM about the SGpro.

[Filmjunkie677]

Great article, guys!

[235 Studios]

Great article, guys!


Thanks. We had fun testing them out.

And I really enjoy Norm's writting style- he did a great job in coordinating everything and doing the write up.

[Dennis Wood]

Thanks for putting the effort and time into doing this review. Having seen, it, and relating your findings to footage, and anecdotal reports, I'd say your findings are pretty relevant.

The Brevis will be ready in about two weeks or so..and it will be up for the next shootout :-)

[235 Studios]

The Brevis will be ready in about two weeks or so..and it will be up for the next shootout :-)

Cool- it'll be fun to test out. Thanks.

[idvfilms]

Excellent read, it's great you guys took the time to inform us. It looks as if the technology in this is ever developing of 35's is really heating up.

[Erik Olson]

I'm disappointed that the M2 wasn't reviewed. From what we've read on the 24 reviews, it still sounds like the absolute best value for the money.

Is there a reason Red Rock Micro didn't get involved or wasn't involved?

e

[PaPa]

why does the sg35 unit with the two women seem to have absolutely zero focus pull. Neither of them seem to ever be in focus..

[Norm Sanders]

Overland, I spoke directly with Brian at Redrock, and he would prefer that his adapter be compared against the Mini35, and other HIGH end and COSTLY adapters. He did not want to be included in a sub $1K shoot-out. Nothing we could do about it.

PaPa, we didn't have the Indie Focus on these to pull a rack focus w/hard stops, so we were simply trying to pull focus at the same time, by hand ... there should be SOME point, where you'll find the subject(s) in focus, however the footage is certainly softer than the DVX itself.

I can personally see the focus pulled between the two on the SG35, though I agree it's not dramatic ... could the lighting/setting, I'm not sure.

To get a much sharper image out of the unit(s), a user is going to want to play with the settings inside the camera. Both scharky and Jack Daniel Stanley have posted some of their settings that they use ... while these are for the Letus35 A/Original, they could likely be applied to improve nearly any 35 adapter, to a degree.

scharky's thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=50191&page=4

Jack Daniel Stanley's thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=46631&page=17

[Invito]

The Redrock M2 actually costs $650. It includes:
M2 Cinema Lens Adapter
M2 rod mounting clamp
M2 Achromatic lens

You can verify this here:
http://www.redrockmicro.com/p_wizard_1.htm

You do have to buy a lens mount, so add another $75 for a total of $725.

If you have your own rod support, then you don't have to buy theirs, which pushes the cost of the M2 up to $995 plus S&H and any other accessories you want. I went with their rods and my order came in at exactly $1,046.27.

All of these adapters really should have some kind of rod support it seems, so with the upgrades coming with the SG35 and LetusFLIP+Rods, all 3 of these adapters are within a few hundred dollars of each other.

That said, I ordered my M2 a few weeks ago. From what I've read it could be the winner at nearly the same END COST as the two adapters from this article.

Once I get my M2, I'd love to hook up with anyone in the Bay Area who has any other adapter (from $10k to DIY 10 bucks!) so we can do a review on it with my DVX100B. Maybe we can do a test with the HVX200 too.

Cheers.

[Aaron Koolen]

Overland, I spoke directly with Brian at Redrock, and he would prefer that his adapter be compared against the Mini35, and other HIGH end and COSTLY adapters. He did not want to be included in a sub $1K shoot-out. Nothing we could do about it.



Wow, why? I mean if they want to compare against the high end ones cause they think they can compete, then why not go in a sub 1000 shootout and totally blow the competition away if they think it's that great. Ah, well, that's truly a shame.

[Norm Sanders]

Well, there were a few other reasons that were stated in the conversation, that I'm not sure he'd want me to go into, so we'll just leave it at that he only wants to complete against the high end adapters.

However, I agree with your line of thought.

[235 Studios]

The Redrock M2 actually costs $650. It includes:
M2 Cinema Lens Adapter
M2 rod mounting clamp
M2 Achromatic lens


Yep you're right, as long as you just get the stand alone unit. If you get either of the other two bundles you're looking at $1,000+. Which to be fair, you have to get rails for the M2. As we were testing complete units- the SG35 came with rails, and the Flip does not require rails (Although I would use rails as I wouldn't want that much weight hanging off my lens.)

[KennyJay]

Hats off to Letus and SG35 for efforts and courage. Go Brevis!

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

That doesn't seem right to me...The M2 from RRM can be picked up with a mount for about $750...You couldve used the rods from one of the other adapters instead of paying another 300+ for RRM's indie package. It wouldn't have been fair though, M2 would've destroyed these two adapters from the way the shootout looked!

[Norm Sanders]

With the run of bad luck the other two adapters were getting with either a defective mirror, or issues from shipping, etc. ... I wouldn't have been surpised if there was 'something' that could have effected the M2 as well ... hopefully not, but I do want to defend the units on the basis of two things:


Neither of them were in peak form, unfortunately
Neither of them were optimized for the BEST performance to get out of them, as the focus was on the differences and staight camera settings for both units. To get optimal results from any unit, you'll likely want to increase core detail, and other settings within the camera to sharpen the pictures, then work with some others to decrease/offset noise, etc.
Lastly, it sounds like from your above suggestion that we should have considered purchasing the unit for testing, but save on the rails because we could have used others we had on hand? Um, no thanks. Neither of us rec'd a penny for this, nor any other form of compensation, and were taking our own time & resources to do this comparison ... we weren't going to purchase an adapter to benefit the manufacturer with free exposure.

[Slimothy]

Thanks so much Norm. This article was very helpful. Tim.

[235 Studios]

That doesn't seem right to me...The M2 from RRM can be picked up with a mount for about $750...You couldve used the rods from one of the other adapters instead of paying another 300+ for RRM's indie package.

To add to Norm' response:


Lastly, it sounds like from your above suggestion that we should have considered purchasing the unit for testing, but save on the rails because we could have used others we had on hand? Um, no thanks. Neither of us rec'd a penny for this, nor any other form of compensation, and were taking our own time & resources to do this comparison ... we weren't going to purchase an adapter to benefit the manufacturer with free exposure.

I also think that there would have been a slight underhandedness to say that we were reviewing sub $1000 adapters and have one of the adapters be $750, but to really have it work you have to spend over $1000. The adapters we were testing were sub 1K, and worked straight out of the box, without anything more to purchase. With the M2 you need rails, and they are not included in the sub 1k price. There is just something that doesn't sit right with me when saying "Here is this great 35mm adapter, and it is sub 1K! ..... on, and by the way, if you want to actually use it on your camera, you have to spend more then 1k." But that's just me.

Anyway, all that is really just a moot point. As the M2 was not available to test anyway.

[ecking]

The redrock people would brilliant if they had the m2 up against the sub 1000 level and won and then tried vs the g35 and mini35 and won or came in close. That would make then look good no matter the price point.

That's what I'd do but oh well.

[tlorenzo]

One thing I'd like to ask Jarred is this: Would you consider using either one of these lensadapters for one of you own projects?

Tony

[Noel Evans]

Since the GG was off center (or mirror was angled incorrectly), it forced us to zoom in even further than the normal Letus35 or the SG35. Doing this actually cut down our field of view, since we were now zoomed into the GG more than necessary.

May I ask what zoom you had to use? What zoom did you use on the sg35?

[TimurCivan]

zoom on the DVX not the 35m lense.

[Norm Sanders]

Hi ncje, your question to that has been answered over in scharky's thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=50191&page=6

tlorenzo, I don't know about Jarred, but I know Barry Green has expressed interest in the Flip ... or the $10K+ Mini35. Reason being, is he doesn't want the hassle of the upside down image that most 35 adapters bring with it. I'm not saying he's endorsing the Flip ... far from it. Just that the already flipped image of the Letus35 Flip and the P+S Mini35 are the only ones that have really held his interest/curiosity.

[Noel Evans]

Fd lens doesnt have zoom? Of ourse I am talking about the dvx. Just comparing mine .

[Norm Sanders]

Well THAT'S just really strange ... I could have sworn I posted to this thread this AM, pointing you over to scharky's thread, ncje. Sorry it didn't take (the post). Anyway, here's the link to scharky's thread/page that answers your question: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=50191&page=6

Also FD lenses can have a zoom. The two Canon FD 1.4 50mm lenses I have doen't, but I've got a Canon FD 5.6 100-300mm zoom lens that's a beast.

[TimurCivan]

Norm can i borrow that lens....


nah kidding i have a 200 mm F3.5 telephoto thats is quite enough reach.

[Norm Sanders]

Just an update that I heard back from Wayne Kinney on the SG35 we tested. When we initially tested it, we wondered how the DVX would be able to focus on the GG at such a close distance, as the tube seemed real short. Sure enough, when we tested it we were unable to get all the way inside the edges of the GG and still get focus.

Wayne's rec'd back the unit we tested, and he confirmed there was an error in the machining of THAT particular tube, and it was indeed too short ... which hampered the SG35's performance in the shoot-out.

That said, both units weren't at their peak, so we'll look forward to having them "redeem" themselves soon with the improved adjustments/upgrades that are being made.

[Daniel Skubal]

Just an update that I heard back from Wayne Kinney on the SG35 we tested. When we initially tested it, we wondered how the DVX would be able to focus on the GG at such a close distance, as the tube seemed real short. Sure enough, when we tested it we were unable to get all the way inside the edges of the GG and still get focus.

Wayne's rec'd back the unit we tested, and he confirmed there was an error in the machining of THAT particular tube, and it was indeed too short ... which hampered the SG35's performance in the shoot-out.

That said, both units weren't at their peak, so we'll look forward to having them "redeem" themselves soon with the improved adjustments/upgrades that are being made.

Thanks for the update, can't wait to see m2/g35/go35/letus35/sg35/mini35 all in the ring together. Eventually. :)

[Norm Sanders]

I can't imagine the mini35 ever being in the same ring, as there's no incentive for them to participate. That adapter is SO far out of the range of most people it just wouldn't have any benefit for us users, and it'd be no good for them because all it COULD do is show how close other adapters could be (or as good) for 1/10 of less of the cost ... something I'm sure they're not excited to support. :)

M2 ... maybe, but that'd only be once Brian starts to see some of these as potential competition.

G35, could be the same with Jonathan, but otherwise the bigger deal will be whenever it's even ready to be in production ... until then, it could never be in our tests, as we only want to test production ready/available units.

By the time we're ready again (after Hero Fest, most likely - though we may UPDATE for the SG35 Pro and Letus35 Flip Advanced prior to then), the Go35 and a couple of others I've heard about will likely be ready as well.

[Wayne Kinney]

To give an example of the images possible with the SG35/DVX100 combination, please refer to Dan Morgen's new short 'SOLO' here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=51139

[TimurCivan]

i saw the grabs a few months ago, the video was awesome!

Thats what sold me on the sg35

[Wayne Kinney]

Hello,

We are happy to announce that we are now ready to take pre orders for the SGpro. All is now finalized in the design and dates from the machine shop. Final price is £400 (around $700) and includes the main SGpro unit, CNC machined aluminium 15mm support rods system and 1 lens mount of users choice. First batch of 10 units should ship end of april. We are offering the following metal interchangable lens mounts:

Canon FD
Canon EOS/EF
M42
Contax
Leica R
Minolta MD
Nikon
Olympus OM
Pentax K
PL mount

All support clamps are CNC machined and anodozed black. All in all, a very solid system. Please email me at waynekinney@hotmail.com for info on the pre order list.

Teaser pics below:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wayne.kinney/sgpromounts.jpg

http://www.sysmicfilms.com/wayne/sgprowireframe03fade.jpg

[Norm Sanders]

Wyane, from the picks it looks like different lens mounts will place the lense further/closer to the GG than others. Have you tested the variables that may come with that?

Are the rods as long on the SGPro as they were with the previous version of the SG35? The length of rods was the only thing that allowed the Indie Follow Focus to be used with it, as the size of the box was getting in the way, so we had to invert the follow focus to the other side & kind of have it backwards ... but it worked to pull focus with, and again was only able to be done so as the rods were so long.

[Wayne Kinney]

Here is a frame grab from yesterdays SGpro/DVX100 test:

http://www.sysmicfilms.com/wayne/sgpro_dvx100.jpg

[Norm Sanders]

Sheesh, once again my post didn't "post".

Wayne, I'd had a question yesterday about the SG35 Pro ...

With the different lengths of mounts (how it looks in the pics), are their any variables you're finding with having some lenses further from the GG than others?

Also, are the rails going to be as long as the last set that were on the SG35? Having the rails as long as they were was the only thing that allowed us to use the Indie Follow Focus on your unit, as we had to flip it around (backwards) and use it on the right side vs. the left (the GG box was in the way, otherwise). It could effectively work at that angle, and just wanted to make sure the rails were at least as long as before.

[Norm Sanders]

Oh, and nice pic, BTW ... it's probably just me, but is there a degree of smearing in the upper left hand corner (not far into the corner, but a whitish-milky looking smear up in that direction)?

[Wayne Kinney]

Norm,
Yes the rods will be 40mm long.

There does not seem to be any issues with different makes of lens being at different registations/distance from the GG.

And yes, that is a little smeared. The lens tested has been through the wars during my experimenting, in and out of tubes and units, laying on the desk here and there, so a little scratched. This is the reason i did not post footage. Infact, I did not intend on posting a frame grab even before making the dvx test due to this, but this grab seemed to show the important aspects.

[Norm Sanders]

I see ... as long as people see the explaination above about the lens, then you should be fine ... but otherwise, if they're like me, their first concern is that since the smear appears to be circular, almost following the direction/spin of the spinning GG, they may associate it with that ... I know I did, until you spoke of the lens issue.

[Aaron Koolen]

I thought the same as Envision. Wayne, I'd really just hold off on the shots until you have some clean ones. And I think I can see the smear going all the way round. On the top and bottom it's not as noticable, but on the right, if you look in as far from the edge as the left hand smear, It looks like the image grain is being moved around in a circle ever so slightly. I'm not entirely sure, maybe it's just hang over from the left smear.

[Wayne Kinney]

Well, I can assure you its not GG grain your seeing, since that smear effect is in completely the wrong way to the spinning GG.

But you just saying it goes all the way round just got me thinking and I think i know what it is. I think its the reflection of the dvx lens barrel, since the was a 5mm gap between the dvx and SG tube, since i left the gap to test for best distances (the whole point of the test that day). If you can look again at what you see and let me know if you think its this.

[Wayne Kinney]

Hello,

The New SGpro forum is now up. I am looking for suggestions on what to add.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wayne.kinney/sgproforum.html

[Norm Sanders]

Nice looking forum, Wayne!

[TimurCivan]

all the cool kids are on Waynes forum.......

you should be on it too.....

[watson]

Wayne Kinney,

is there any other full frame grabs? Morgan's film looks great, but its so small. if i could see one or two full rez grabes from that, i would order a system right away.

andrew

www.andrewdavidwatson.com

[Norm Sanders]

Andrew, nice reel on your site. VERY nice.

[watson]

thanks man...

i've been meaning to cut a new one for quite some time. Thats stuff from mostly a few years ago now. I've been traveling a ton so i havent had time, but i'm putting it on my summer To Do list for once i'm home. Gettting a 35mm adapter is up there too. Actually its really high up there casue i have a few bigger projects coming up i would love to have an adapter for.

[wmiller@csulb.edu]

I have gotten much better results with my letus35a (no flip). Lighting is definately an issue with the letus 35, i over light and overlight again... it works out wonderful.

[Norm Sanders]

We ended up using two Flips in our current Hero Fest short. We definately had to REALLY over light the scenes, which was a bit of a bear, but once we had it lit for the Letus, they looked absolutely gorgeous. There's still more light loss than I'd like, but the images look great, and it's wonderful not having to flip the picture during production or post.

That said, I believe for our next shoot-out we'll have a bath tub test for anyone who says their adapter is air-tight. If they say it's air tight, then it should float when thrown in the tub, and have no water leaks. 3 of our 4 days were EXT shoots with rain towers, and we were continually soaked ... the Letus ended up taking water inside of it, so we know it's not air tight ... just needed to be further sealed with some additional hotglue and/or electrical tape.

[TimurCivan]

Hey norm,the new SGpro is hitting the market. I got a ''prototype" or SG custom as i like to call it. I am a happy camper. its not perfect, but its also not a True SGpro, which wayne assures me is nearly perfect. check the grabs section for clips and video.

[thematthewbone]

great article! thanks for putting it up!

[HybridCreations]

Excellent article guys. I'm sure it will be a big help to a lot of people. For anyone in the New York area that's interested, the NYC DVXUser group will be holding an "in-person" Sub-$1000 35mm adapter shootout in July. Stay tuned for details.
-Ryan

[TimurCivan]

i will be repping SGpro, and Go35 (most likely)

[jpbankesmercer]

Cheers guys for all your time. Great read.
Jp

[jpbankesmercer]

Cheers!

[235 Studios]

Glad you like the article. We had a fun time putting it together. And I enjoy Norms writting style. Makes it a good read.

[Norm Sanders]

Wayne, just checking in on the SGpro. Fully available now to the public?

[TimurCivan]

I have one :)

[Passing Through]

hi there,

is there any progress in the construction of the sg35 pro lens adaptor ? I went to the site and it said that they ' re done next month and can start the sale. Is that correct or is the site not up to date ?

[TimurCivan]

they are for sale, but they are no longr the sg35, its now the sgpro. a more advanced model.