Red v. Kinetta

[turing]

hey all,

I was slobbering over the kinetta ten seconds after it came out, but it turned out to have problems. I would characterize them as 'market problems' rather than engineering problems. Reading many of Jeff Kreines posts on cinematography.net has shown that he's a serious boy who knows his s*it. http://www.kinetta.com for the google-challenged.

This is somewhere in the grey area between speculation and fact, but I believe Jeff stopped development on the Kinetta "for a while" because of sensor issues.

So, when I had a look at the Red specs, obviously I thought of the kinetta. The difference is Jeff talked about his sensor suppliers, while the RED people aren't talking (as far as I have seen) about the origin of their chips.

So far that's the only significant difference I see between the kinetta and the RED (well, there was and remains a lot more info about the kinetta, including the incredibly cool fiber patch thing): the sensor.

Mysterium.

So Jim: you fabbing chips?

To be bluntly clear: I would freaking LOVE to see this be successful, I would love to use this in a production, etc etc. But until I see the RED people point to a chip fab or a supplier, I'll still have my doubts. Many of the smaller camera companies (Aaton comes to mind, they showed me photos of the prerelease Aminima and I nearly crapped my pants it was so cool) have shown a willingness, even delight, in disrupting markets. They haven't, and I think there's a good reason.

Maybe Jim is buying Foveons in secret and renaming them Mysterium! hehe: http://foveon.com/article.php?a=67 - ah, nope! http://www.alt-vision.com/hanvision.htm says Up to 7.5 frames per second at full resolution for the 5MP version.

Jeff's problem was large sensor speed as well. The sensor is the key. If they have it, the camera will hit the market. I hope they do...

_a

[turing]

From the cinematography.net mailing list for the kinetta:


Re: What does the Kinetta crowd think of competition
2005-12-19 22:48:00

...snip..

We're still committed to a camera, but the specs have changed a good
bit -- it will be 4K, large sensor, and offer both uncompressed and
compressed recording, ultimately both solid state and hard disk. It
will be extremely versatile, in terms of lenses, form-factor, and
recording formats. But it depends on a couple of manufacturers
delivering technology that isn't yet available... technology worth
waiting for, I think -- in order to make a camera that's
significantly different than what's currently available. (Otherwise,
why bother?) The hope is to make a far less expensive camera that
filmmakers can afford to own... with significant advantages in
dynamic range and ergonomics. (But the RED camera will probably be
flashier!)

...snip..

Jeff "back to the old Solidworks drawing board" Kreines

[Policar]

There are tons of third party sensor manufacturers besides Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Foveon, etc. I remember one was selling 5fps 8mp dSLR chips for $90 a pop. Jim's not fabbing his own chips, but he has the money to invest in the R+D required to help mass-produce a proprietary design for sure. Money's the issue here, I think, and he has it.

It's not Foveon, by the way. Their chips are SLOW and pricey and he's using bayer interpolation to get the high pixel count.

[turing]

Well, there are many, many people selling sensors, but not many selling sensors that will sustain 24+ fps @ HD + resolutions.

While I agree that "lots of money" certainly helps, it is by no means a guarantee of success. If they aren't running their own fab then they are asking some organization somewhere to spit out prototype chips, and I'd very much like to know if they have ever actually received a "mysterium", hooked it up, and looked at signal coming off it.

Re: foveon, yeah, last I had checked they were slow and probably still are. But the images are gorgeous ;)

I seriously considered a hairbrained scheme to do an opensource embedded linux digital cinema camera. I did a reasonable amount of research, and I can tell you the single and only real roadblock I hit was sensor speed + size, which is the point of this thread.

_a

[Policar]

The fact that Jim says no footage until this fall is NOT a good sign.

The fact that they're already working on the codec, already guessing dynamic range levels, and have invested this much time and money into the cameras is, though.

We'll see, but I trust they've got it under control. It's a proprietary sensor so you know they've got something figured out--at least they know who's making it and probably have prototypes being developed or are testing them already. Plus the D20 and Viper prove it can be done (albeit for a LOT of money.)

[MarcusX]

The fact that Jim says no footage until this fall is NOT a good sign.

Remember when the first HVX footage was posted here and Panasonic told the guys not to post uncompressed stuff because it was not the final codec? This was just weeks before the camera became available.

[Jarred Land]

yeah i wouldnt worry too much about it guys.. Its not like Oakley to fail at something they are determined at.

[turing]

Heh, well I'm not biting my fingernails - but I would be very interested to hear what Jim has to say about the sensor. Even a statement as simple as "it's a custom design done by us" or "we are working with a (secret) company on their next generation design" etc.

If it comes, great, if not I'll wait to see what if any new and interesting information comes out of NAB 2006. :)

[donatello]

come on, Jim doesn't have to say anything ( and i hope he doesn't resond) .. he's given us the name of the new sensor .. the spec's for camera will be released at NAB..
AND the one thing RED has behind it is a person that loves cinematography & lets not forget $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for R&D on their lens, codec, maybe senor ? and other new technology etc ..

$$ is what the kinetta doesn't have behind it... unknown release date ? has it been 2 years since it was introduced at NAB ??

[MrSleep]

if the Foveon gets doable, will the sunny many do it? given its modular design makes me dream of latitude & lush b&w :love4: foveon would be pretty on Red!

[Damon Botsford]

For the love of God!!!!!! I feel like a complete jackass.
EEEEEE AWWWWWWWWW EEEEE AWWWWWWWW
I'm sitting here reading this thread from the beginning not paying attention to the dates and I get to...
"The fact that Jim says no footage until this Fall is NOT a good sign."

Oh my God... they postponed the footage! This is not good, Mav. Not good!

Wait a second... Fall is a few weeks away. This thread is way old.
EEEEE AWWWWWWWW
Note to self... booze + Ambien = confusion

[stokestack]

I ran into Mr. Kreines walking around the show floor at NAB a couple of years ago. Actually got to hold and look through the mythical Kinetta, and its weirdly colored OLED viewfinder.

After all this time, he was still touting the "sensor-agnostic" nature of the camera as a big benefit. You can put whatever sensor you want in there. So I asked what the hold-up was.

"We're waiting on sensors."