Becoming a DOP or cinematographer

[PDX_DVX]

I thought about putting this in the cinematography forum, but wasn't sure so I put it here. As I have been spending more and more time with film making, I have begun to get the feeling that the cinematography aspect of the process is what I really want to do. My question is aimed at the DOP's and professional camera operators that cruise these forums (or anyone else who has input...). How do you go about getting started with it all? I know of course that you don't just go out and all of the sudden start operating 35mm cameras, but what leads up to that? I am trying to get PA positions on films and such, but how do you eventually "climb the ladder" and become a DOP? Is it possible or even obtainable? Or is it one of those things that I should just count on never being able to do because only a handfull of people ever get there? I thought I remembered reading about this on these boards but I couldn't find the thread. Any insight would be great!

[oneinfiniteloop]

I think anyone can do it, so I wouldn't ever doubt yourself. THere are many ways to break in, but you have to know a good bit, and have that "sixth sense"...well, this is what I gather.

I'm kinda in the same boat...I've been very technical in my learning over the years, and now I'm getting to the point where I'm studying the artform more, and going out and shooting stills and practicing composition. Learnig the basics...

Probably doesn't help much...I too would like to hear what some established cinematographers have to say.

[PDX_DVX]

I have been shooting alot of stills lately as well, and I find it reallllly helps with my video aesthetics (if thats the right word?). Also helps with really getting a grasp on how to get the image you want, both with DOF and composition, color, detail etc etc. I just have no idea the avenues which people go through to start in this profession. I assume you would (Like all other positions) start out as a PA, then eventually move up to clapper loader, and then to assistant camera, and then to camera op, and if you're good at that, maybe eventually DOP. Problem for me is that I am having trouble even getting a PA position on a film, let alone an AC position.....the age old advice of going out and actually working on a film versus going to film school seems good advice, but actually getting to work on a film seems really hard, even to get a PA position.....anyone else think this?

[Justin_Kirch]

As with any position on a film crew, it usually starts as being PA. You have to work your ass off NON-STOP so you can be noticed. I was a PA on a independent feature a few years ago, and I worked my ass off constantly. The DP asked me to work on the camera crew with him one day. That's how cool it is.

Justin

[Greggl]

Keep getting work as a PA and let the camera crews know you're interested in
getting more camera experience. Its always possible to work as assistant
for seasoned assistant that is wearing the DP hat on someone's indie project.
Thats a common 'in' these days.

You may also want to start hitting all the camera workshops and demos for your
local HD and pro gear dealers. That can be a decent networking venue. I know
that I got my start by attending pretty much any demo/sales pitch I heard about.

[KennyJay]

Let us look at on of the best filmmakers of the last ten years, Robert Rodriguez. This man came in under the radar with a $7000 film. Robert studied film at My Camera U. I'm in their masters program, you know the doing your first feature film with what you can get your hands on. I'm producer director, writer, cinematographer and grip. I know I can't compete with Hollywood's finest, but can learn from them by studying their work. Robert's last five movies have been shot on digital. I thought I was a good dp until I watched El Mariachi. Then I knew I had to learn the art of moving the camera instead of zooming in. And the importance of preproduction as in rehersals and finding the shots and less talking. Twelve years later I can see graduation coming, yes the film should be in the can later this year but that don't mean I'm on the same level as the best even if the film is well recieved. Then if doors open and I want to learn more about about one of the disiplines of filmmaking I can learn from the best if they think I'm worthy. But I refuse to knock on doors without a resume. If you have given your power away, take it back. Blood, Guts,Bullets and Octane by Joe Carnahan desribed by one writer on the back of the dvd cover as better that Usual Suspects. Shot on dv, low budget, but should not, respectfully, be mentioned anywhere or in the same breath as Usual. Anybody seen Narc? Directed by the same Joe Carnahan and I believe a $30 million dollar budget. Can some one explain that to me? My point is that no one can say for sure who will make money at this. I'm glad its hard and I question myself at times and then my teacher questions my heart and I focus harder on the prize.
I'm in stl and can't move to LA tomorrow or and became a pa and work my way up the ladder by knocking on doors. The movie began with the script. If you are not a good writer borrow sceens from all your favorite movies add your touch, and see if it work by sending it out to the festivals or productions companies. I want to do it all and thats why I have to move slower but if Hollywood come calling I still want to do it all, because I have done it all. What might work for me might not work for you. I'm more concern about whats on the other side of becoming successful. Brothers and sisters, keep the faith!

[chrisBcornell]

Let us look at on of the best filmmakers of the last ten years, Robert Rodriguez. This man came in under the radar with a $7000 film. Robert studied film at My Camera U.

The best.... hmmmm very debatable. He is good at getting things done his way, that is for sure.

For the DP thing, why not move to LA? I can't imagine Portland to have a bustling industry. Either that, or make a name for yourself.

Save some money, rent a NICE camera, and shoot yourself some nice Spec commercials. That way you can get your film noticed and you have a product you can try to market to advertising agencies. If you want to stay in OryGone this may be a good idea.

[PDX_DVX]

LA is deffinetly more of an epicenter....but somehow I just can't see myself living there. Isn't Vancouver BC pretty busy too?

[Ralph Oshiro]

By the way, the term is "DP." I don't know who started this "DOP" acronym. I've never heard anyone in real life refer to a director of photography as a "DOP."

Here's one ladder:

PA.
Grip.
Electrician.
2nd AC
1st AC
Camera operator.
Gaffer.
Director of photography.

[pheboglobi]

Hey PDX, what's your main goal? Do you want to DP narrative features or TV shows? or are you aiming for Commercials or Corporate videos etc?

I don't know what the market is like in Portland, but from what I've heard, it isn't exactly a hotbed of production in terms of large features or television shows. So if that is more your goal, a relocation to a city where more of that type of production is being made might be a good idea. There's certainly a lot more production oppurtunities in L.A. than you will find anywhere else in North America that's for sure. If not, there's the broadcast stations up there, so there is always the possibility of moving into more ENG and EFP work, and I'm sure there are plenty of local commercials, corporate videos, wedding videos, etc to go around in Portland.

Having worked in a smaller, ultra-competitive market (metro area ~1.2 mil people) before, I can tell you that moving to L.A. was the best thing I ever did for my career. Even if you decide to not stay there, being able to say that you have worked in L.A. is a big boost. Before I moved back out to L.A., I remember mentioning to people that I had worked in L.A. (as an intern! lol) and they were... in awe - I know –*it sounds weird, but that is really the best way to describe it. I thought it was kind of silly, but nonetheless, it got me jobs. Thinking back, all the local big D.P.'s had spent a good deal of time in L.A. or NYC, and everyone knew about it.

As NBCShooter hinted, you can always go the electric/grip route to becoming a DP as well. May be a good idea to pursue both avenues until one or the other takes over.

Good luck, PDX.

Garrett

[jkc123]

. Blood, Guts,Bullets and Octane by Joe Carnahan desribed by one writer on the back of the dvd cover as better that Usual Suspects. Shot on dv, low budget

Blood, Guts, Bullets was actually shot on film; and J. Carnahan predicted it would be the last of the low/no budget features shot on film.

[Ralph Oshiro]

To become a film DP there's two positions you must have worked on before, to really know what you're doing. If you can eventually get these two jobs, you can get a DP gig on a low budget feature.

1. Become a gaffer on a 35mm feature.
2. Become a camera operator on a 35mm feature.

As a gaffer, you'll know everything there is to know about lights. As an operator, you'll know everything you need to know about cameras. As you progress along your "ladder" of positions, you're basically building enough creds while waiting to get the opportunity to grab those two jobs at some point on a decent-sized feature project. By then, you'll have enough skills and enough confidence in your technical ability to tackle a project as a DP.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Overheard early in NBCshooter's career . . .

DP: "Hey, take those two 18Ks up those stairs!"
NBCshooter (as an electrician): "Uh, okay."

It was like 85 degrees in L.A. that day, and 18Ks weigh like a billion pounds. In the film world, you work ridculous hours and carry stupidly heavy things all over the place. Just the cable to power those lights weigh like a trillion pounds. But if you have the desire, and don't have to pay rent too often, you can make it if you're persistent.