HVX For Broadcast Commercials

[lyonfilms]

I have been using a Canon XL-2 for the past sixteen months for local projects (web commercials, a few political spots, etc.) and am very close to ditching the camera and going with the HVX (although the XL-2 has been wonderful). Couple questions for the gurus on this site.

1. If I am going completely over to FCP (production bundle, + CS2 + Shake) and want the option to shoot HD. What is the best workflow to get the local television stations the BEST possible quality?

2. Do I shoot everything in HD and have the stations down-rez to SD? This is my first foray into HD, so I’m just not sure.

3. If I need to go HD to give to the broadcasters, do I need to buy a DVC-HD deck so that the final project out from FCP goes to a tape for delivery?

Thanks for any help on the workflow. I need to upgrade but don’t want to make any purchases until I have all the “needs” completely identified.

[Barry_Green]

There are very few, if any, local stations who are originating in HD. Last I heard there were six stations who originate their news in HD. Percentage might be growing, but it's not like there's an epidemic transition to HD origination in local news stations.

Best thing for you to do is talk to your broadcasters and ask them what they want. For local commercials, I'd bet that 99.85% of 'em are going to want standard-def. And in those cases I'd shoot DV50.

For a deliverable you can go a few different ways; again it depends on what they want. Some stations will take submissions on BetaSP, some on DV50 tape, some on DigiBeta. Some will even take DVDs. Some might take a direct MPEG-2 broadcast stream as well.

If you choose to shoot HD or SD, don't rely on the station changing anything. You want to give them a broadcastable product ready to go, in whatever format they use internally. So just call 'em and ask 'em, they'll tell you.

Good luck! :)

[lyonfilms]

Thanks for the information. Do you have any advice as to what is the best method? I have a good budget to get a lot of new equipment (not sky-high $, but solid). If I want to spend money on a HVX, a tricked out PowerMac G-5, FCP, ect. (moving away from PPro, After Effects, ect.), what other hardware do I need to get the stations the best quality.

I ask because I see a real range in quality for local spots. I realize some has to do with the camera used, but I have a feeling a lot has to do with the workflow. My goal is to get my final product to the station in as prestine a condition as possible.

Thoughts?

[tim_brown]

Working in a 10bit uncompressed color-space will allow you to give the stations the highest quality available. Working uncompressed requires that you purchase a proper broadcast card, AJA and Black Magic are a few vendors -- I'm assuming you've been working previously in DV only -- and a RAID array.

For a RAID, I suggest an SATA solution over older SCSI technologies as they have more bang for the buck and allow you to have higher data rates for very little cost.

You'll also need to acquire a deck that, as Barry mentioned earlier, will allow you to record to a format that is acceptable to your local station. Probably BetaSP as most stations are extremely slow in adopting new technologies. I suggest a rental of a broadcast deck as prices are very high and may not warrant the capital expenditure, but rentals are cheap and you just bill your client.

Hope this helps.

Tim

[lyonfilms]

Yep, just been working in DV with the XL-2. As I will be new to FCP and some of the workflow you mentioned. Are the decks external and do the interface with FCP? Is the uncompressed 10 bit colorspace simply a setting in FCP?

If so I am likely to shoot the commercials in DVC-PRO50 as Barry suggested.

[tim_brown]

Yep, just been working in DV with the XL-2. As I will be new to FCP and some of the workflow you mentioned. Are the decks external and do the interface with FCP? Is the uncompressed 10 bit colorspace simply a setting in FCP?

If so I am likely to shoot the commercials in DVC-PRO50 as Barry suggested.


Yes, decks are external and record the video output from the capture card onto a robust recording format suited for the rigors of the broadcast world. These decks range anywhere from $12,000US (from ebay or "B" stock if you luck upon a deal) up to $100,000+ for a newer HDCAM deck. Of course the cost of tapes for these formats grow exponentially as well.

These decks connect to your capture card via SDI, SDTI or component connection. FCP, or any other NLE that's compatible with whichever card you choose, uses the card to ingest the video and export the video onto whatever format your deck is capable of recording. The transfer of the video data requires a great deal of "really" fast storage space which requires a RAID array that can support the high data rates of uncompressed video. Of course uncompressed HD requires a great deal more space and considerably faster drives than HD, save for DVCPRO HD that can be transferred through firewire, but like Barry said, you'll need to know what format your local station supports and then work back from there.

[lyonfilms]

Excellent break down. Thank you all for your advice. There is a very good Pro Video supplier in Portland, Oregon and I should be able to rent decks, or at least be pointed in the right direction. Norm was correct, this is a great site.

[pretopost]

Question:

Can you just firewire through the HVX and out the components to a BetaSP rental.

This is the workflow I have decided on since firewire, Panasonic and the HVX have killed the need for internal cards for most of local broadcast uses. I used to have an Aurora Igniter card when I first started and personally would never go back to an internal card and breakout if I could help it.

Anyone remember the CineWave????

Daniel
Pretopost Media Solutions
www.pretopost.com

[OliverM]

Well, if you want to go out to a deck you still need a card. Unless you can deliver in DVCPRO or DVCAM. Those decks connect through firewire. But the others (BETA SP; DIGIBETA; ...) need a card. But cards are very reasonably priced these days, so if you need one it'll pay itself back in no time...

However I wouldn't go 10-bit uncompressed. The DV50 8-bit codec is gorgeous allready and you will gain no information by capturing or recompressing to 10-bit. Everything will just need more space.
Maybe if you need to do severe colorcorrection or grading in post 10-bit could be usefull. But lyonfilms mentioned going with shake. Grading and color correcting is done in Shake then, right?
That means that all that happens in 32-bit floating piont, no matter what codec you use. With Shake even regular DV holds up nice while fiddleing.
Bottomline: you don't need the 10-bit uncompressed, stick with the 8-bit DV50.

Also, you don't need to capture with the HVX. It's memorybased, so just pop the P2 cards or the harddrive in the computer and import the digital files. No capturing what so ever.
If I where you I'd try to get the commercials to the station in a Quicktime moviefile. Ask them wich codec they want and they can import that in their broadcast system. And like that you can deliver on regular DVD-Rs. Doesn't seem very "pro" at first, I know. :) But once they are used to it they will look down on anyone else that brings in a tape...
Beta-tape could be usefull for archive in SD-material. Just save up enough commercials to maje a complete tape. 1-day rental, and solid archive when you should need it.

Oliver

[pretopost]

Correction

I was pointing out that you can use the firewire out through the HVX out Component as an option to a high price card to get to a deck, whether rented or purchased.

Daniel
Pretopost Media Solutions
www.pretopost.com

[OliverM]

My bad :)

But actually you can't... Wich is quite a bummer, I agree. :)

[Justyn]

I'd say to hold off on buying any type of deck just yet. I've been happy renting them when I need 'em. The blackmagic cards are nice and reasonably priced. I've been editing HD on a dual 2gig G5.. upped the RAM to 2 gigs but it was even working flawlessly when I only had the 1 gig initially.

I do also like the SATA drives. The firewire 400 have been kind of unreliable. I'd say that a good CRT HD monitor for the studio and a couple of Dell 2405 for computer monitors and you are set.


Also, the best option I have found is that most dub houses will allow you to send them the footage on DVD for them to extract and dump to digi-beta or DVCPRO/ Beta. If it's just a 30 second commercial shouldn't be too expensive.

[pretopost]

My bad :)

But actually you can't... Wich is quite a bummer, I agree. :)

Let's get this straight... You can't monitor component out from firewire with the HVX. But you can through S-Vid or composite. You CAN HOWEVER out to P2 and then dump to Component to your deck after, but not in real time. Set up on my desk now and is working great.

FCP5 treats HVX exactly like DVX monitoring with svid. Choose Apple firewire as out hookup and switch to VCR and your set. For HD monitoring, using a 30 inch Cinema Display. Works great.

Justyn,

Yeah outing through a dubbhouse isn't a bad option and is actually $50 cheaper than a rental for the deck and includes media cost. Will rent when I want to archive a large amount to tape.

Also, people are bitchin about backups and tape... Go to Fry's elctronics and buy two 160 GB Seagate HD and set them to auto backup at night while you sleep. Then offload your projects to tape when project is done or DVD Data if you do short form like me.

Thanks,

[brianluce]

so the component OUTs on the hvx can dump to a computer but NOT to a tape deck?

[pretopost]

Brianluce,

That is not what is being said. You can dump final edited footage back to P2 from FCP. Then you can play out through the component outs of the HVX to a Beta Deck that accepts component.

[brianluce]

Brianluce,

That is not what is being said. You can dump final edited footage back to P2 from FCP. Then you can play out through the component outs of the HVX to a Beta Deck that accepts component.

okay so that means, that as you seemed to suggest, you don't need a card with component in/out right? that's a cost savings...

[pretopost]

okay so that means, that as you seemed to suggest, you don't need a card with component in/out right? that's a cost savings...

Absolutely...if all u need is anolg component out, then you can save yourself a grand, but if you need SDI or HD-SDI then you need a Card and significant storage.

[brianluce]

Absolutely...if all u need is anolg component out, then you can save yourself a grand, but if you need SDI or HD-SDI then you need a Card and significant storage.

okay one more question about this, if going from hvx analog out to deck, could you keep loading p2 data into the deck and create a seamless tape with no discernible breaks where each p2 card ends and the next begins? in other words could you create a seamless 45 minute dvcpro50 tape using just two p2 cards? it seems this would be simple to do and maybe this is a stupid question.

[pretopost]

No because the MXF files have to come from somewhere. The HVX creates them when capturing from FCP to the HVX over firewire. No way to do what you are asking.

And honestly if you are doing a 45 minute video rent a DVCPRO Deck. For what I would charge for that length of a project, I could easily justify it for a client, but for quick 1K-2K commercial production BetaSP through an HVX is FINE.

[brianluce]

No because the MXF files have to come from somewhere. The HVX creates them when capturing from FCP to the HVX over firewire. No way to do what you are asking.

And honestly if you are doing a 45 minute video rent a DVCPRO Deck. For what I would charge for that length of a project, I could easily justify it for a client, but for quick 1K-2K commercial production BetaSP through an HVX is FINE.

i think i'm not explaining myself clearly.

let's say you're shooting a commercial that because of its length requires two p2 cards to record.

record/film part I of commercial on hvx p2
import p2 files to pc/mac
edit files
export from pc/mac back to p2
put the p2 back into the hvx
export from hvx to betacam deck

repeat this process for part II of commercial.
part's I and II will be one seamless commercial on the betacam tape with no discernible break between parts I and II.

[pretopost]

part's I and II will be one seamless commercial on the betacam tape with no discernible break between parts I and II.


I understand completely what you are saying, but have two concerns:

A) Commercials tend to be in 15, 30 and 1 minute intervals. Even at 1080P you could fit 8X1 minute commercials on two 4GB Cards. Unless your doing an infomercial which is usually 42 minutes or so which is why I suggested renting a Deck because your probably being payed anywhere from 9K to 25K depending on complexity.

B) It doesn't work that way because you are limited to the format of the BetaSP deck which is linear like all taped solutions. That's why tapeless rocks, but is painful in a tape-filled world.


I think your question is irrelevant if you are pricing is in line with the project you are working on. The longer the project--the more complex--the more effort on your part--more money to you--rent a deck to out on that has a firewire port.

[Jeff In Ocala]

hi all new member here, I do mainly tv work for broadcast and cable. spots and some long form I come from the old beta sp /sx background and had to update, been reading these boards and saw the clips and went for getting this camera. when i did some test shots with the dvcpro50 setting i was blown away, side by side comparisions with my beta sp rig and nobody in the office could tell which was which very impressive will be glad to get the beta rig off my aching shoulder. i also have an older non linear system and have to capture everything analog, went in thru component and put it under the scopes and its looks wonderful, i deliver my final product on beta sp and have no doubt the HVX will handle anything i need to shoot. seems like the opinion here is to wait for a larger HD to come out as far as storage ie the cineporter, until then i was going to play with the idea of capturing to a portable beta deck in the field, which is a little bulkier than a couple P2 cards but will have to do for now. hopefully after nab i will look into getting FCP and using ALL the features of this great camera