720p or DV for SD out? Barry and suggestions?

[DP StrangeLove]

I will be shooting a commercial soon with my HVX for TV broadcast. I have tried searching the theads as I know this topic may have been covered before, but I was wondering what the optimum HVX capturing methof should be if I want to edit in SD and output in SD.
Would I get high quality SD if I originally capture in 720p then down-res, or shoot DVC PRO 50 or DVC Pro 25 or just capture on mini-dv in through the tape transport drive on the camera. I haven't received my camera yet, so haven't been able to test the different results. Would down-res'in put more of a strain on my Final Cut Editing system, than if I was to shoot just in SD. The client would perfer to have HD footage for future archival, but just wondering what method would result in the best res and editing for SD out.

[DP StrangeLove]

and oh yes, the reason why I am wondering about the 'strain' on my final cut system is that I currently only have an apple powerbook to edit on.
Thanks!

[imgentertainment@mac]

that will be hard. What I would do is just shoot DVCPRO 50 SD. That is if your client is just wanting the footage for local maybe reginal commercials. If he wants it for network or to use the footage for other things such as web, film out for theater commercails ect.. then I would go to 720 and down rez. Always better to start with the best format and work your way down. But then again I don't think your FCP system will like it very much.

[DP StrangeLove]

I was originally thinking going 720p for higher res SD, but do you think I can get away with editing 720 on my 1.5 GHZ power book? Also, I remember reading something way back when, Barry mentioned that he thought it is always better to shoot in SD if you're going SD.
Do you think that is true? Like you said isn't it, 'better to start with the best format and work your way down?" That is what I believe, but contrary to Barry?

[toddeastman]

I am editing 1080i on my 1.67GHz Powerbook with no probs.
I also took a 720p/24pn timeline and used Compressor and DVD Studio Pro to take that footage to DVD. The footage still looked great in SD, slow-mo and all. Crystal clear! I'm guessing that you are not delivering on DVD though. :)

[DP StrangeLove]

I actually will be delivering on DVD. That is good news, so FCP on a powerbook can playback a 720p footage timeline with no problems, or delays? If so, then this camera is going to be truly revolutionary for me!

[DP StrangeLove]

and so you both recommend capturing in 720p then down resin' for the best SD results

[Barry_Green]

If you're only going for SD, shoot DVCPRO50. Keep it simple. You'll get results at least as good, if not better, than downrezzed HD would deliver. I tested the HVX shooting native DV50 vs. downrezzed HD (downrezzed to tape) and DV50 looks better. Downrezzing in computer and avoiding the tape step would help the HD be more competitive, but -- it's easier, more straightforward, and at least as good looking, if not better, to just shoot DV50 in the first place.

Downrezzed HD would spank DV though, so don't just shoot DV, shoot DV50 instead.

[polispol]

I have a question about this...
If you shoot HD, you can work up to 109% of the signal... so if I shoot in HD probably I get more latitude than in SD specially on highlights... or am I wrong?

[toddeastman]

Barry is right. If you are going to deliver in SD you can avoid some hurdles by shooting DVCPro 50. I have not had a chance to compare computer downrezed HD to a DV50 on a mastered DVD. Hopefully Saturday will find time to try.

I do know what I saw on my SD TV from the downrezzed footage looked amazing for SD stuff.

Remember, you are always dependant on the abilities of your delivery format. An example would be a project shot on Kodak 5218 (major latitude film) is going to be shown on over the air broadcast SDTV (very limited latitude and color space).

[polispol]

yes, you are always dependant about the delivery system. But... if you have more information than the real needed... you can distribute this information as you want in colour grading.

(sorry for my bad english, but it's late here! xD)

[pkendall]

I am editing 1080i on my 1.67GHz Powerbook with no probs.
I also took a 720p/24pn timeline and

Todd,
hey. this question is if you're editing in final cut HD? What happens if you take your 720p footage and put it in a 1080i timeline? I know you have to render it, but I just wondering if it just has that 24p look or if there some major defect like, it becomes soft or something.. i'm asking this because, you obviously get more p2 drive space with 720p.. but a lot of stations only take deliver in the 1080i format.

-patrick

[DP StrangeLove]

Remember, you are always dependant on the abilities of your delivery format. An example would be a project shot on Kodak 5218 (major latitude film) is going to be shown on over the air broadcast SDTV (very limited latitude and color space).
So, are you suggesting to awlays first capture on a higher latitude setting for a limited latitude output? Wouldn't that give you more control over the color space? So wouldn't you want to shoot HD even for SD out so you have more control over the image, and it won't down grade as much through color correction, and lighting changes in editing?

[toddeastman]

Todd,
hey. this question is if you're editing in final cut HD? What happens if you take your 720p footage and put it in a 1080i timeline? I know you have to render it, but I just wondering if it just has that 24p look or if there some major defect like, it becomes soft or something.. i'm asking this because, you obviously get more p2 drive space with 720p.. but a lot of stations only take deliver in the 1080i format.

-patrick

I am using FCP 5.0.4.
I do notice a softening bringing a 720 clip into a 1080 timeline due to the 150% resize to make it fullscreen.
The other thing you (we all actually) need to consider is if they only take things in a certain timebase. If I shoot 720p/24pn and a broadcaster wants 720p/60p, then what? Anyone have any input?
I am going to be shooting a short film using 720p/24pn and want to know if there are any special considerations.

[toddeastman]

So, are you suggesting to awlays first capture on a higher latitude setting for a limited latitude output? Wouldn't that give you more control over the color space? So wouldn't you want to shoot HD even for SD out so you have more control over the image, and it won't down grade as much through color correction, and lighting changes in editing?

No. What I was saying was that the beautiful image you can capture with that film will not be the same image on TV due to the limitations of the TV in both color and latitude. You need to plan your shooting given the limits of your delivery.

I have not had enough time to test where the whites and blacks clip for each setting in an HD vs SD type experiment so I have no idea if detail extends past 100 IRE in the HVX200 shooting HD. It's all the gamma curve you set.

[TwistedLincoln]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only way to edit DVCPRO50 on the PC currently Edius Broadcast? This may play a factor in the practical part of the decison, as one could use Raylight with Vegas or Premiere, but only when shooting HD...

[Barry_Green]

Raylight lets you use DV50 as well, so anything that works with Raylight (including Vegas & Premiere) can edit DV50. And Liquid supports DV50, and so does Velocity, and -- well, just about everything does, actually. Between native support and Raylight, there's not much that wouldn't support DV50 on the PC.

[FatBird19]

Raylight lets you use DV50 as well, so anything that works with Raylight (including Vegas & Premiere) can edit DV50. And Liquid supports DV50, and so does Velocity, and -- well, just about everything does, actually. Between native support and Raylight, there's not much that wouldn't support DV50 on the PC.

cool. Has anyone noticed any quality loss with Raylight, cause' I'm thinking it might be an option until I can afford a mac. :o

[TwistedLincoln]

Raylight lets you use DV50 as well, so anything that works with Raylight (including Vegas & Premiere) can edit DV50. And Liquid supports DV50, and so does Velocity, and -- well, just about everything does, actually. Between native support and Raylight, there's not much that wouldn't support DV50 on the PC.

Ohh..... So then one cannot edit DVCPRO50 directly using Vegas, because even though a proper codec exists, it cannot unwrap the MXF files to access the data. However, Raylight bypasses this problem, by presenting Vegas with an AVI file it can use -- regardless of format (DVCPRO HD or DVCPRO50)... correct?

[Barry_Green]

Correct. But you will still need a DV50 codec, which you can download for free from Matrox.