I keep reading it can't be done...

[Spinflight]

I think for those of you who are really stuck on why this can't be done at a reasonable price, are looking at this camera from the wrong perspective. You're looking at this from the point of view of the the Genesis or Viper, when in fact you should be looking at this from the standpoint of digital still cameras. We've known that these little point and shoot digital cameras have been able to shoot 3 minute videos for some time now. Pretty good one's I might add considering the resolution. And audio too!! Heck, I can shoot an undercranked movie on my full frame canon 5D. "The Corpse Bride" was shot with a Canon digital still camera. (Of course one frame at a time but you get the point)

One click of the shutter on My 5D is just like one frame from a very expensive Genesis.
Hmm, same picture, two totally different price points. Go figure. Speed up the fps on the Canon, you get a very cheap full frame motion picture camera, slow down the fps on the Genesis, you get a very expensive full frame still camera. Both cameras acquiring light onto a digital chip. No difference folks.

I've always known like so much of you out there that if you can get a digital still camera to shoot fast enough, you essentially have a motion picture camera. Jim, being from a photographic background has probably seen this long before any of us and is elaborating from the digital still camera aspect rather from the motion picture digital cameras that are currently available in Hollywood. This is going to be one of those stories where everyone and their uncle will be saying. "That was easy enough, why didn't I think of that. I was looking at from the outside in, now I get it".

We have to stop looking at this from what is done currently, to what can be done that hasn't been tried. I mean c'mon skeptics, do you really think it's so impossible to make a Canon 5D shoot faster than 3fps. With the right technology in place it's probably a very simple task to overcome.

I know I'm looking forward to what Jim will come up with. In fact, I think it's safe to say, I'll pretty much invest in the system site unseen. I just know the potential of where this is going to go. I hope you all do too or you'll miss the boat. NAB here we come.

[Policar]

I mean c'mon skeptics, do you really think it's so impossible to make a Canon 5D shoot faster than 3fps. With the right technology in place it's probably a very simple task to overcome.

It's not. There are tons of issues with heat, power, how fast the CMOS has to dump data and take another reading, digital noise that builds up over time, rolling shutters, and tons of other stuff I can't even begin to comprehend.


I'm not saying I don't think Jim's going to pull it off, I just don't think we should belittle the tremendous efforts that are going into this thing. This is NOT an easy task. There's a reason your Canon shoots 3fps, and it's not intentional "crippling."

[joe 1008]

As I have learned there seems to be relation between framerate and resolution. But the Canon doesn´t have to make 24p at 8k even not at 4k - at least not for ME. If it would make 24p with 720 lines this would be great and VGA really should be possible and would be very useful. I don´t say this would be a RED but for may purpose it would be a good camera considering the 35mm DOF and the possibilitie to use primes.

[Spinflight]

It's not. There are tons of issues with heat, power, how fast the CMOS has to dump data and take another reading, digital noise that builds up over time, rolling shutters, and tons of other stuff I can't even begin to comprehend.


I'm not saying I don't think Jim's going to pull it off, I just don't think we should belittle the tremendous efforts that are going into this thing. This is NOT an easy task. There's a reason your Canon shoots 3fps, and it's not intentional "crippling."


Belittle? Who's doing that. That term seems to be used out of context here.
It won't be easy but it can be done with the right resourses in place. Too many people say it can't be done. I Think Jim's up to the challenge. If the challenges of issues makes one say it's impossible, than I think you've given up before you've even tried. All the issues you stated that you can't even comprehend will be addressed. It's just a matter of time. Pretty soon they will be non-issues.

[Greg Lowry]

Spinflight: How do you know that's what RED is even attempting to do? What makes your speculation any more valid than anyone else's? Just because you think you know what they're doing or should be doing doesn't make it so.

[Spinflight]

Spinflight: How do you know that's what RED is even attempting to do? What makes your speculation any more valid than anyone else's? Just because you think you know what they're doing or should be doing doesn't make it so.


Greg, I don't know how he's doing it. That's the point. We're just talking
"perspectives" here. All I'm saying is look at what Jim is trying to accomplish from a different point of view, using the DSLR as that point of view. (My angle of looking at it could be way off) Too many People are saying he can't accomplish this at a resonable cost to consumers. I'm saying he probably can and will. I could be wrong.

Just because the space shuttle is a billion dollars and takes people into space, doesn't mean Burt Rutan can't do the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Two different methods, same results. History keeps repeating itself. There are those who say it can't be done, and there are those who defy them and create results.

Again, I don't know how he's doing it, I just believe he can and will have a huge customer base. The first in line will be the people who say it can't be done. Isn't that the way it always works.

Hope this helps.

[myfriendimage]

I think for those of you who are really stuck on why this can't be done at a reasonable price, are looking at this camera from the wrong perspective. You're looking at this from the point of view of the the Genesis or Viper, when in fact you should be looking at this from the standpoint of digital still cameras. We've known that these little point and shoot digital cameras have been able to shoot 3 minute videos for some time now. Pretty good one's I might add considering the resolution. And audio too!! Heck, I can shoot an undercranked movie on my full frame canon 5D. "The Corpse Bride" was shot with a Canon digital still camera. (Of course one frame at a time but you get the point)

One click of the shutter on My 5D is just like one frame from a very expensive Genesis.
Hmm, same picture, two totally different price points. Go figure. Speed up the fps on the Canon, you get a very cheap full frame motion picture camera, slow down the fps on the Genesis, you get a very expensive full frame still camera. Both cameras acquiring light onto a digital chip. No difference folks.

I've always known like so much of you out there that if you can get a digital still camera to shoot fast enough, you essentially have a motion picture camera. Jim, being from a photographic background has probably seen this long before any of us and is elaborating from the digital still camera aspect rather from the motion picture digital cameras that are currently available in Hollywood. This is going to be one of those stories where everyone and their uncle will be saying. "That was easy enough, why didn't I think of that. I was looking at from the outside in, now I get it".

We have to stop looking at this from what is done currently, to what can be done that hasn't been tried. I mean c'mon skeptics, do you really think it's so impossible to make a Canon 5D shoot faster than 3fps. With the right technology in place it's probably a very simple task to overcome.

I know I'm looking forward to what Jim will come up with. In fact, I think it's safe to say, I'll pretty much invest in the system site unseen. I just know the potential of where this is going to go. I hope you all do too or you'll miss the boat. NAB here we come.

A 12 megapixel video camera like the genesis isnt just a still camera that shoots a 24 pictures per seconds, there is way more to a video camera than just a still camera that can just be taken rapidly. A camera has tons of peices capturing data and at a rapid rate. But when you take a video camera witch has to capture data 24 times a second with millions of pixels its puts thing in perspective, the imaging has to refresh that fast, in a picture camera you capture the data and then determine when to capture the next at any interval, the the video camera needs to handle so much more.

[Spinflight]

A 12 megapixel video camera like the genesis isnt just a still camera that shoots a 24 pictures per seconds, there is way more to a video camera than just a still camera that can just be taken rapidly. A camera has tons of peices capturing data and at a rapid rate. But when you take a video camera witch has to capture data 24 times a second with millions of pixels its puts thing in perspective, the imaging has to refresh that fast, in a picture camera you capture the data and then determine when to capture the next at any interval, the the video camera needs to handle so much more.


You're absolutely right.

The whole point of the thread was to say that Jim can make this work a lot cheaper than say a Genesis or a Viper. It doesn't have to cost us consumers $200,000 for a comparable camera. Maybe my analogy of using the digital still camera and what it can do as a starting point just didn't work. I hope some of you got it though.

[Chev]

ummmm.

im thinking (i apologise already) what if you had eight digital SLRs all getting their images from the same lens (at a shutter speed of 24) at 3fps. wouldnt that just be UHD video?

[Greg Lowry]

It's a good thing that your post contains an apology. It's the only thing that makes sense. haha.

[MarcusX]

ummmm.

im thinking (i apologise already) what if you had eight digital SLRs all getting their images from the same lens (at a shutter speed of 24) at 3fps. wouldnt that just be UHD video?

That would work, but I guess a dsp that can handle 24 fps from ONE sensor would be easier to build than a mechanism that would turn 8 sensors around, stop for 1/48th second to exposure and be precise within µm range.

[marko5000]

That isn't so stupid however "a mechanism that would turn 8 sensors around" isn't required. The science industry has several versions of increadably high res video cameras that use a method of a spining prism that sends the light to each sensor in turn.

It is incredably complicated as it needs to be timed so a sensor can dump one image and be ready to capture the next by the time the prism gets back round.

Not suggesting for a second that this is how Red will work. Technology progresses so fast I expect we will just see a better cheaper version of the core tech that the other cameras already use.

I remember getting a 600K or so still Fuji digital still camera not that many years ago and thinking how useless digital photography would be as it was too difficult and too expensive to have any useable resalution at home (I wasn't alone in thinking this). We now have 49 megapixel still cameras for under 10K.

The idea that a recent entry to a market with plenty of financial resources might make something much better and much cheaper than the current best is not only possible it's highly likely.

[Chev]

That isn't so stupid
:happy:

[obin]

I know it can be done, I almost did it, but I don't have the $$ to make it happen overnight, and I did not have the $$$ to hire the right guys to design it. Trust me, it can be done. give the right group the time and it WILL be done, it's jsut a matter of time.

I am betting the farm Jim will do it. After all he has the $$ to make it happen.

And from the DSLR point of view at that.:lipsrseal

[Greg Lowry]

You almost did what? What will be done? And what is it you're betting Jim will do?

[SPZ]

I understand your dslr analogy, and your reasoning makes sense. I hope we can get this baby for 10k !

[Spinflight]

That isn't so stupid however "a mechanism that would turn 8 sensors around" isn't required. The science industry has several versions of increadably high res video cameras that use a method of a spining prism that sends the light to each sensor in turn.

It is incredably complicated as it needs to be timed so a sensor can dump one image and be ready to capture the next by the time the prism gets back round.


Interesting. The timing could probably be achieved in a less complicated matter maybe. Look at the timing a speed controller has to do on an electric motor. Talk about sending electrical pulses at an astonishing rate to keep the motor spinning at a specified rpm.

It essentailly becomes your shutter speed.

[Chev]

Interesting. The timing could probably be achieved in a less complicated matter maybe. Look at the timing a speed controller has to do on an electric motor. Talk about sending electrical pulses at an astonishing rate to keep the motor spinning at a specified rpm.

It essentailly becomes your shutter speed.film cameras manage it well. the film runs at a reasonably exact rate. (the more expensive ones at a nigh on perfect rate).

[obin]

Greg are you really that sleepy ? if your in this thread, I would bet you know what it's about, if you know what it's about, then how can you ask the questions you did?

ummm.....do I need to take the reefer out of your mouth ? LOL

[Greg Lowry]

Obin, it's not clear what you're replying to when you made your "I almost did it" comments, as the previous posts refer to several concepts (from multiple spinning sensors to modifying a digital still camera for motion picture work). And to make it even more confusing you suggest that "you're betting Jim will do it." I'm neither sleepy or under the influence of anything except your lack of specificity. I was simply seeking clarification.