Red and Apple team up?

[joren]

Thinksecret.com, a Mac rumor website that has historically been pretty accurate, is saying at NAB apple will announce a high end version of Final Cut Pro that will handle Red's native 4k resolution. Also, they will release a larger monitor that will be able to display full 4k (4520x2540 resolution) .

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/finalcut6.html

Rumor or not, this kind of perceived support from Apple is great news to Red! I know this is talked about in another thread, but I saw this as a good thing. Comments?

[Isaac_Brody]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=42654

[Luis Caffesse]

I know this is talked about in another thread, but I saw this as a good thing.

You saw what as a good thing?
Cross posting?
:thumbsup:


I should know better than to feed this.

[joren]

Jeesh, guys. Relax.
The other thread talked about the price rumors. I didn't want to hyjack that thread to talk about the rumors that apple will support native editing for the Red camera. IMO, that's not cross posting.

Think about it: native 4k editing. Viewing a 4K image natively on a desktop machine. If it's true, it's pretty amazing. And as I said before, this rumor does a lot to legitimize what red is trying to do with prosumer video. And THAT is a good thing.

[Isaac_Brody]

MMmm...cross posting. :evil:

[Haakon]

I think they'd be extremely wise to partner with Apple. If the Red camera only works with Canopus, they aren't gonna sell too much. :thumbsup:

[obin]

I think it un-wise, then we have the old "you can only edit with Apple hardware" like Panasonic is doing with the hvx...really bad, our entire POST and VFX setup is PC, and so are many others...

[Jason Rodriguez]

Obin, you can edit P2 on AVID, and you actually get native MXF support there (rather than re-wrapping into QT with Apple's version of P2 "support").

[kai]

I think it un-wise, then we have the old "you can only edit with Apple hardware" like Panasonic is doing with the hvx...really bad, our entire POST and VFX setup is PC, and so are many others...

Although that's Apple's point, to get some much needed market share from the high end finishing suite market ala Avid Nitris, etc.

I see this as a huge plus in the high end compositing, DI, post realm. The combo of RED and this new apple offering is basically allowing more high end facilities the opportunity to offer more to their clients for less.

[Spartacus]

With apple finally getting intel inside and leaping ahead, the difference in price between PCs and Macs will become smaller (it already is when comparing major manufactorers workstations with the PowerMacs) and performance will become more comparable...
If Mac continues to treat the video world so nicely it is another selling point for me.
I`m a PC guy to the bone so far, I always hated the "join the elite" attitude of Macintosh BUT I know both OSes and I like FCP and if the price/performance ratio is alright I´ll buy.
Out.

[myfriendimage]

I think the red camera is a little over zelous, aside from being scepticle about this camera, I think its too much to soon. The only use I can see from it is if you want to shoot in the high resolution with 2500 lines of rez, so it wont look so grainy if I blow it up on film, but then I would much rather rent the Panavision genesis.

The camera is too much to soon,let alone to begin native editing with apple. You will most definently need the quad core with atleast 4 gigs of ram, I edit 1080i and sometimes 1080p on my dual 2ghz machine, with 2 gigs of ram, couldnt be happier, with more than double the rez I would need a more powerful machine, way more power.

I want to ask whats the use of this camera, surely 15% or less on this message board, infact way less probably blow their footage up on film, so why use this product so soon, why not develop a leading 1080p, whats your drive for this? This camera I think is a big mistake, its too much to soon, way to soon, wait until everyone is catching up to editing 1080p, offer this as a proffesional camera only like the arri digitals or the panavision digitals, then when everyone can catch drop the price and make it prosumer. But a proffesional camera to be editing natively on everyones mac is a little much, when everyone is still saying, whoa HD for consumers!

The most I could use this camera for, would be to make sprakeling 1080p footage but certainly no use for 2500 lines.

[Slimothy]

Yea, I agree------>This cam that's not even out yet is a HUGE mistake. :thumbsup:

[myfriendimage]

Yea, I agree------>This cam that's not even out yet is a HUGE mistake. :thumbsup:

I will retract the comment, if someone can tell me some reasons why this camera should come out now. They could do it now and break onto the scene 2500 lines of resolution and no one can use it, or wait a while let apple hype up the codec and the support for this camera, then release the camera and let people move in UHD, but now is just to soon.

[thisiswells]

I will retract the comment, if someone can tell me some reasons why this camera should come out now.
Optical viewfinder!!!
35mm depth of field without a Mini35 adapter
Low noise images (because of the gigantic sensor)
High sensitivity (because of the gigantic sensor)
Selectable ISO so you can use a light meter
Ability to record at variable quality levels, starting at 19Mbps (720P HDV) up to Dual Fibre Uncompressed 4K.

The last camera you will ever want to buy -- probably for around 10K, plus storage.

[Shaw]

Add to that the fact that you would probably do an offline edit first... using this camera wouldn't be any more difficult than any other.

[Jannard]

This camera is designed for use today. Shoot 1080P @ 60fps or 720P if you like. Edit as you do now on the equipment you own now. With 35mm DOF. Or shoot 4:2:2. If you have the equipment (some do) to use 4:4:4... no problem. Want a camera that is ready for the futurewhenever you are... here it is.

One thing to remember, this camera will not be shipping tomorrow. When it does, many of the necessary CPU speed upgrades, storage needs, etc. will be on the market.

A quarterback doesn't throw the ball where the streaking wide receiver is. He throws it where the receiver will be.

Jim

[Slimothy]

This camera is designed for use today. Shoot 1080P @ 60fps or 720P if you like. Edit as you do now on the equipment you own now. With 35mm DOF. Or shoot 4:2:2. If you have the equipment (some do) to use 4:4:4... no problem. Want a camera that is ready for the futurewhenever you are... here it is.

One thing to remember, this camera will not be shipping tomorrow. When it does, many of the necessary CPU speed upgrades, storage needs, etc. will be on the market.

A quarterback doesn't throw the ball where the streaking wide receiver is. He throws it where the receiver will be.

Jim
Well put Jim.

[Digigenic]

]http://www.myfilehut.com/userfiles/10493/Blogger%20Images/forums%201/RED%20FOR%20THE%20WIN.jpg

[emmanuel cambier]

Send the Ball Here:thumbsup:
a wannabe receiver

[dregenthal]

I think the red camera is a little over zelous, aside from being scepticle about this camera, I think its too much to soon. The only use I can see from it is if you want to shoot in the high resolution with 2500 lines of rez, so it wont look so grainy if I blow it up on film, but then I would much rather rent the Panavision genesis.

What I think is, whether this is a camera for you (or me), that this is just so cool . . . to be able to be a part of something new that very probably will come into being because the driving force behind it is someone who clearly has the vision, and resources to make it happen . . . and has demonstrated that negatives will not stand in his way. Go Red!!!

I'm just a little curious . . . whats' the daily rate for a Genesis?


I think it un-wise, then we have the old "you can only edit with Apple hardware" like Panasonic is doing with the hvx...really bad, our entire POST and VFX setup is PC, and so are many others...

You don't suppose the new Intel based Apple will have impact on this?

[Digigenic]

You don't suppose the new Intel based Apple will have impact on this?
...let alone the OSX86 Project (http://osx86project.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1) <----- clicky linky

[235 Studios]

The last camera you will ever want to buy -- probably for around 10K, plus storage.

Check the link above according to ther roumor the camera is around 200K ...

[Slimothy]

Check the link above according to ther roumor the camera is around 200K ...
Yes...but that is exactly it. A rumor. Jim has mentioned that the price will be as surprising as the features. He also mentioned that if only a very small percentage of people could afford it, then he feels he has failed. 200k? I doubt it.

[Jay Rodriguez]

does thing camera come with a can opener? lol, jk

I don't pay attention to rumors. rumors are rumors, end of story.

[235 Studios]

Yes...but that is exactly it. A rumor.

And I hope and pray that it is WAY off base, as well as the part of the roumor that says that FCP Extreme will be 10k.

At 200k and 10k that is out of my league ...

But if it came with a can opener as Coffee asked, I might consider it at that price. :thumbsup:

If it does come out at or around 10k for the camera, I would be on board and scounge up the cash to get it.

[Rafe]

I think the red camera is a little over zelous, aside from being scepticle about this camera, I think its too much to soon.


I disagree. I understand while certain technologies can outpace others - its relatively not as much of an issue of "too much too soon" as it is breaking a trend of bottlenecking technology. A lot of times companies across the board stateside bottleneck technology, limiting, and crippling products to milk every integral step of technological advancement - when times there are leaps and bounds to be made. Every now and again, technologically we have to make leaps here and there. If someone said at the first talkie film in the 1920s - "that's too much too soon - no one has the hardware to play audio with video"...well it'd delay the inevitable progress towards advancing not only the technology - but the art.

Now granted you're right, I can't imagine a single quad G5 being able to process/ render in any reasonable time 2k or 4k images. I am sure of one thing - it definitely get companies off their laurels and make them start (1) being more forthcoming with technological advances instead of gradually releasing or (2) start trying harder to advance technology and push the envelop to be able to meet the demands of such products. Its a possibility that there could be a brick wall in the processing abilities of systems once this camera is out. But honestly, granted this camera isn't hitting shelves today I'd rather see this camer be tailored towards future developments, rather than current limitations in CPU power, which are outdated every year anyway. Limiting a camera that is probably still in R&D phases to fit the technology of today may end up hindering the possibilities of that camera and the "next step".

Either way, it means maybe just maybe technology will start to embrace a potential evolution - or you might have to daisychain a farm of a couple of G5's...but its still probably gonna come out cheaper for production houses than the technology that exist now such as Vipers and all that business. Which then translates to lower cost for you - and while not necessarily opening the floodgates for all indies - definitely bringing technology that allows people to push the envelop of art, that much closer to all of us.

[im.thatoneguy]

Actually there is a notable slice of film makers who do think that talkies caught on too soon. That it slowed down the advancement of filmmaking and visual storytelling. :)

[Rafe]

Actually there is a notable slice of film makers who do think that talkies caught on too soon. That it slowed down the advancement of filmmaking and visual storytelling. :)

i can see the importance of visual storytelling as a medium of its own, and the sort of pressures it put on people to include audio. we can think of tons of movie that have horrible dialog coming blasting through your ears in THX. And likewise I get sick of crappy CG...but then again you wade through the crap and you get something every once in a while like "Lord of the Rings" that is as technological as it is artful. Technology can turn a public so at awe with new technology to turn away from equally magnificent, albeit not as technologically advanced works. People sometiems do get too wrapped up in technology yes, and we're probably gonna see people make crap on the red as well.

But yea, we've seen crap for sometime now. And regardless whether they're working on a GL2 or a Viper...a person might still make some crap. The technology isn't going to make the crap appear or disappear - though it may make it more visually appealing.

I mean one of the first things that comes to mind, yea it would be sad is say a sd dv production like similo - was basically ignored because it simply wasn't 2k,4k and whatnot. It was a great usage of the technology available. However, you have an equally hard time convincing me that the creator of similo if having the option wouldn't have went "red" in the first place. And that's my point, perhaps this camera will split the atom amongst indies...or maybe it'll add a whole new equation to the mix and give indies a whole new molecule to play with. It could create a divide between the haves and have nots amongst indies... and it could create an obsession with technology above art. But then again that's kinda already happening anyway with the advent of XL H1s and even to some degree the DVX200, every one can't afford those, and everyone is not gonna use the technological advances of these products in the most artful way. This very moment you have people damning use of the phrase "film" for anything shot on video. Even when the DVX hit the scene some people at least initially were thinking the DVX w/ 24p and such was the cure all in the stead of good acting, lighting and other fundamentals. And as before we saw people crawing at the faults of 24p...yet now we've seen some beautiful marriages of technology and art. And here we are today on a forum dedicated solely to it.

So I'm just saying granted the flexibility of "red" for a range of uses, and after people have the inevitable gaffaws of honeymooning a new technology - people will come back to earth and realize the worth of using that technology, not for technology's sake - but incorporating it as one tool to further artful expression.

[Jack_Felis]

The only thing I worry about is an Alienware situation. I bought an Area 51m laptop when it first came out. It was one of the first laptops to support upgradeable graphics. It's a great laptop but the twist is tha Alienware never made a new graphics chip using that system and they killed ALL support for the older models when they replaced it with the PCI Express mobile technology that they currently use to great effect. What if RED does the same thing with this modularity system? What if a newer technology that is cheaper and faster comes out the next day and it is totally incompatible with the previous generation? That's my only fear, but if I can get 1080p at least, I'd be happy.

[FullRez]

If anything, RED will force the hand of other manufactures like Panny, Sony, JVC, etc. to stop rehashing the same cameras over and over (not to mention charging unrealistic prices) and step up to the plate. I mean how long have video cameras been out and we are still playing the 3 CCD 1/3, 1/2 and 2/3 inch chip game.

The resolution might be overkill for most and lets be realistic, even in 5 to 10 years from now what do you think the resolution for most HD (or HD+) broadcasts will be? 4K? Doubtful. So yes it will have a film output market, a TV episodic market, a Independent market and maybe an event market. However, which of these groups do you think the bulk of the sales will come from?

I'm hoping this camera will at least bring us 35mm sized censors at current camera prices, after all these already exist in the Canon Digital SLR's. Think about it - right now a Canon 5D SLR (3K price) can capture a very good 4K image at 3fps to digital media from a Super 35mm sized film sensor. Cut the Rez down to 1080 maybe gain a few fps, tweak the chips some more and hmm, probably not to far off from a 24fps chip.

My point is that RED should have a second camera in their pocket that doesn't provide all this 4.4.4 and 4K business and just focus on features that will provide for most markets (35mm sensor giving us true DOF at last, 4.2.2 at min, variable frame rate recording, Direct to Disk recording, etc.). Unless they would rather sell 5 100K cameras isntead of 1000 10K cameras.

[HowdyDoo]

The sooner the playing field is leveled, the sooner content and technical ability will become the only thing worth discussing. If you look at desktop publishing you'll see that through the early 90's, they experienced what video and film is going through now. Today, in the design world, EVERYONE has access to the same tools a giant magazine publisher has and the market is FLOODED with graphic design artists. Since the playing field is now level, it's no matter a question of who has the tools. Only the good designers get work.

I've been waiting for the day that the tools used in million dollar productions are accessible to those on a budget, and the mental hang ups people have over depending on technology to make good art will be over. The camera will no longer be a scape goat for bad films, only the creators themselves will be to blame.

[ddh]

The idea that the cam is modular, I have a gut feeling, means that it will consists of components that can be changed inside as well as outside. As for 4k 2k, bring it on!

[Danilo Del Tufo]

I have not understood a thing, but Jim Jannard has made some contract with wordwide resellers? This company it's worldwide company that will have support as a traditional company? Or it's another Kinetta or Drake camera made by expert people without any worldwide business/rules?
Have you already made some contracts wordwide, with official support in Italy, Spain, Japan, as a professional company? To make a thing that works you need various subdivision, or we'll have another Drake/Kinetta camera, great enginering but without money to produce a number of cameras worldwide.
I can make a great invention, but if I don't have various subdivision, that ev'ry people on the earth knows what RED camera is, and give support to customers as Sony or Panasonic does for example, this camera won't be real.
Or it will be real but it needs 10 years to make worldwide subdivision...and resellers.
I don't mind about price, camera and others.
The only question we can ask to Jim Jannard is:
"Have you worldwide contracts (we don't want know who are they) to sell this camera for example in Italy, with official support/warranty etc... or maybe this camera it's made in your home?"
Is this thing "real" only for american people, Jim?
And you know Jim that all prototypes or first machines have an electronical mortality rate? (I dunno how it says in english, but ev'ry machine has components that without years of testing we dunno if they stop to work after few days! You need some serious beta testing made by numerous people worldwide!)
After some years you can say this thing work and now let's start to make some contracts...but hey you must say that this camera will ship in 2011 or somethin'!
Be realistic!

[Jarred Land]

I have not understood a thing, but Jim Jannard has made some contract with wordwide resellers?

Think about the market penitration that Oakley has.. RED wont have a problem getting to where they need to get to.



This company it's worldwide company that will have support as a traditional company? Or it's another Kinetta or Drake camera made by expert people without any worldwide business/rules?



again.. RED isnt just some random company with no resources.. This company arguably has one of the best business practice and rules out there.

trust me, in about 10 days everyone in this industry will know what RED is.



"Have you worldwide contracs (we don't want know who are they) to sell this camera for example in Italy, with support etc... or maybe this camera it's made in your home?"

im sure he will answer this.. but Jim has been buying cameras for over 20 years.. lots of cameras. lots and lots and lots of cameras. Every single camera retailer I have come across knows Jim ("oh yeah, i know Jim, he bought an "x" camera from me back when"). he has strong relationships already with alot of powerful people.

And im pretty sure every single retailer out there will be hunting Red down to sell this thing.

[Danilo Del Tufo]

Every single camera retailer I have come across knows Jim ("oh yeah, i know Jim, he bought an "x" camera from me back when"). he has strong relationships already with alot of powerful people.

Hope you are right Jarred! In Italy we have Berlusconi, he's mysterious man because he has 3 television, a publishing house, and own football team, and various other affairs! Hope that Jannard is like Berlusconi, it's the only way to make this thing real....
I'd prefer Jim Jannard to Berlusconi LOL...because Jannard likes Red color...! LOL! (This gag only few people could understand...)
Did you have in Usa any associations called "P2" or "Freemason Lodge" ? (This gag only few italians people could understand...)
Jannard needs that kind of help, Jarred!

Maybe Jannard knows Berlusconi...LOL!

[Jarred Land]

yeah every country has them.. UK has Branson, you got Berlusconi, and we got Jannard.. alot of that genius goes wasted, but some people come around and step up and make a change.

[im.thatoneguy]

The sooner the playing field is leveled, the sooner content and technical ability will become the only thing worth discussing. If you look at desktop publishing you'll see that through the early 90's, they experienced what video and film is going through now.

I find this metaphor flawed. The only thing I've ever felt was holding me back was finding:

- An amazing screenplay
- A genius DP
- An inspiration editor
- A breakout cast
- An excellent composer
- Money to fund all of the above.

Camera.... fun hobby on the side, but the least of my filmmaking concerns.

Film will never become like desktop publishing, unless it can move into the virtual world. The act of filmmaking isn't a solitary activity. It requires, people, time and space. Even if you had a an Arri 435 and unlimited stock right now, you couldn't make a great looking film. Who's going to stand in front of the camera? Are you going to split screen the film and act against yourself? The quantity of indie films being released right now that were filmed on the DVX is a testament to the openess of this industry.

These are all the problems that are holding us back. And I wouldn't have it any other way. It's the collaboration that attracts me to film making. The Red will check off one of hundreds of little boxes that need to be right for a great film.

Now if someone could create a little blue box that gave me unlimited time to prep, light and shoot. Gave me actors and screenplays. I could see a revolution in the industry.

[Jarred Land]

jesus im.thatoneguy... incredible post.

[Stephen W]

- An amazing screenplay
- A genius DP
- An inspiration editor
- A breakout cast
- An excellent composer
- Money to fund all of the above.


Of course it's great to have all these things, but a shame to waste them on a crummy-little DVX/HVX whatever - a good quality picture (in the "moving picture" medium) is to me one of the most important things.

[Jarred Land]

yeah.. i like the split screen thing to act against myself idea. Im going to hafta investigate that.

[profnoxin]

One thing that really excites me that it seems like people are overlooking is the cuttability of the RED with 35mm and 16mm film images. I've worked on a number of films before where we've done split sequences (in fact, I'm shooting one right now) where I've shot certain portions of the film on my DVX and others on my 16 package. I'm going to be shooting a T.V. series this season where we are shooting on 720p HD and using film for a couple sequences. I would love to try the RED out, and see how it performs practically on location, because nixing the 720p would be wonderful.

Also, the jump to 4k for Apple has much broader implications than a partnership with RED... it also means that we will be able to layback to our 4k DIs when we want to view dailies. Sexy.

[JPatnaude]

To heck with 35mm blow ups.
I'm seeing IMAX possible with this bad boy. whoah.

J Patnaude