The Impossible

[myfriendimage]

I know people are gonna argue with me, but if you look at it from another angle. Panavision makes a camera called the genisis made so you can shoot video but blow it up to film, each frame is 12.4 megapixels, to buy that camera would come more money than I could ever hope to get. Were talking about something that shoots half the image of the Genesis but has a higher frame rate. I dunno but if this camera is not just a joke to make fun of people who spend their day speculating about cameras, a year before they have even been anounced, I think this will cost a bit more than we think.

[Erik Olson]

Panavision (Genesis) and Arri (D20/25) are the primary players in the single-imager market at a cost of cannot be bought and mid-six-figures respectively. What the hell is anybody going to edit this 4k footage on anyway? For broadcast where? Not in the USA for another fifty years. We're still trying to figure out how to get Cletus into the first generation digital age with government subsidized converters.

Really... c'mon.

e

[Jannard]

I look forward to meeting you both at NAB.

Jim

[myfriendimage]

Yeah you would have to convince apple to put in some sort of codec for editing this cameras footage, or else it would be really really nice 1080p. I wish this RED camera could be true but I am very discouraged ,who knows, prove me wrong.

[Erik Olson]

Jim,

I'll just say that I'm interested to see what you come up with.

e

[MarcusX]

You don't HAVE to shoot 4k. I bet the camera will produce awesome 720 and 1080 footage.
I think the RED camera will be like the swiss-army-knife of videocameras. Lots of options and for all purposes. Who will rent or buy a D20 or Genesis when this thing will be available at a much lower price?

I'm very optimistic the RED camera will happen. Maybe not in the next 2 years, but some day. It's just electronics, it's just a matter of time until the technology is developed.

Oh Jim, I hope you'll paint the camerabody all red :)

[Policar]

I think Jim said earlier that the idea is to let you edit in 1080p if you want, but have the option of the full 4k as well. This makes a lot of sense to me. The XL1h and Varicam both have the option to record to tape, or to full SDI depending on the workflow you choose and what hardware you can afford. Similarly, here you'll have the option of shooting 4k if you want, or 1080p or 720p if you can't afford a 4k workflow. When hardware allows 4k to be easily editable, then you'll be able to upgrade cheaply. Furthermore, consider the XL1h. Each of the 3 ccd processes 1440X540 pixels 60 times a second. So, the A/D and DSP are processing 3X1440X580=150 million pixels per second. A single 4k sensor at 60p would pump out just under 700 million pixels a second. That's a lot more, but not impossibly much more.

One request, though: PLEASE have upgradeable firmware. If the idea really is to allow you to "upgrade your workflow" as computers allow, then upgrading the camera should be an option, too. I also think this would help ease early adopters into the large investment.

In terms of form factor, an Arriflex 235 like camera would be amazing. 5-10 pounds is really the sweetspot for weight, I think.

Also, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make this thing have CONSITANT ISO settings. I assume it will be switchable like a dSLR (80/100/160/200/320/400/500/640/800 would be amazing), but the dvx for instance cannot be used with a light meter because the CCD does not have a linear response (or there's some trickery to get that high f11@ 2000 lux). I prefer to light and meter to a face, not to "that looks good enough" and I think this would be HUGELY beneficial.

Also, if they RAW mode or whatever works at all like RAW on a dSLR, it will be a lifesaver. The extra stop or so of dynamic range in either direction is hugely, hugely helpful and the way you can slide the exposure instead of fuddling with curves is amazing.

Anyhow, I'm optimistic! Maybe too much so....

[Jannard]

As to the upgrade option, we are interested in gaining a large customer base and keeping them. Upgrading is part of the program. So is system flexibility. We are building this camera as if we were the customers.

[Jarred Land]

Firmware upgrades would sure be nice.. and one of the first for the market. Even if it was a paid-firmware upgrade, it would attract many people.

I agree with the 235 form factor as well.. its a perfect size, in the middle of too much and not enough.

[emmanuel cambier]

The ISO thing would be great...I mean really great.

I am just wondering in case you'd want to shoot 1080p,what happen?
-the whole full frame sensor is recording and it gets downconverted in camera(we keep the same 35 mm DOF)
-or it's just the center part of the sensor recording (we loose the 35 mm DOF)

thanks

[Tzedekh]

The ISO thing would be great...I mean really great.

I am just wondering in case you'd want to shoot 1080p,what happen?
-the whole full frame sensor is recording and it gets downconverted in camera(we keep the same 35 mm DOF)
-or it's just the center part of the sensor recording (we loose the 35 mm DOF)Why can't you have both options?

[Jannard]

The plan is both options...

[Emanuel]

We are building this camera as if we were the customers.:thumbup: :thumbsup:

[emmanuel cambier]

The plan is both options...
Thank you Jim
I take this answer as a strong chance we'll be able to keep the fullframe flavor while downconverting to 1080p 720p or SD.
I am sure I am not the only one to believe this alone would make the RED the ultimate
camera for years to come.
Emmanuel:grin:

[obin]

I hope the red will output BOTH 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 dual link, sometimes you need dual link 4:4:4 for VFX shots and such...

KEEP THE FULL FRAME in a 720p out and 1080p out!
hook up with CineForm and let them do your codec for Post

[thisiswells]

hook up with CineForm and let them do your codec for Post
Or, go with a codec that doesn't require expensive proprietary licenses! I'm not a fan of Cineform, obviously. Hope all is well otherwise. :thumbsup:

[Haakon]

The plan is both options...
There are gonna be SO many menus on this thing... lol

My request is please have a useable, fast-navigating menu system where everything is grouped as it needs to be so we can spend less time setting the darn thing up (and missing half of the settings we forgot to apply), and spend more time shooting.

Woot!

[Glenn_Gipson]

I know people are gonna argue with me, but if you look at it from another angle. Panavision makes a camera called the genisis made so you can shoot video but blow it up to film, each frame is 12.4 megapixels, to buy that camera would come more money than I could ever hope to get. Were talking about something that shoots half the image of the Genesis but has a higher frame rate. I dunno but if this camera is not just a joke to make fun of people who spend their day speculating about cameras, a year before they have even been anounced, I think this will cost a bit more than we think.

I started up a similar thread here about this, and it got deleted (before I got insulted by the moderator.) I agree, although I don't think this camera will cost as much as the Panavision, it is going to cost at least four times as much as an HVX.

[Tzedekh]

I started up a similar thread here about this, and it got deleted (before I got insulted by the moderator.) I agree, although I don't think this camera will cost as much as the Panavision, it is going to cost at least four times as much as an HVX.Although it isn't for sale but only for rent, Genesis would cost at least 40 times as much as an HVX, so let's put this all into perspective.

[Erik Olson]

You won't have perspective until NAB apparently. Genesis and D20 are real world bridge systems that shoot single-imager 12.4k (24 x 18mm approximately) uncompressed.

These are in-market products we're talking about - not experiments. You must take into account that these systems have to function flawlessly in a professional environment day in and day out. When a Genesis goes down, there is a rental house behind your production, ready to provide another.

Consider: the R&D that went into these first-generation single-imager cameras; that they are compatible with existing film legacy accessories; that they have generations of camera-building experience behind them; that you have a contingency in the event of a failure - it is really quite astounding that you can rent them at the rates indicated.

What is the contingency if your Dalsa goes down?

RED might bring some of the technology into the hands of someone who can pay $25k for it - but what is the contingency if I hire an owner-operator and the equipment goes down? Who is going to prep and expedite the replacement package?

We had two compromises during Driver X with owner-operator F900 packages - one revolved around a simple power supply issue for our producer's multiformat HD LCD monitor.

That outage cost us two production days, with an AP, operator, A1, PA logger and driver plus support staff basically benched until the replacement could arrive from MA. Add the costs of accommodations, per diems and so forth onto this outage and you start to see how dependent we are on our gear in a professional environment.

The operator simply didn't have a back-up and there aren't too many similarly configured F900/950s out there yet. The perspective at that point was that we wished we had a proper rental house behind the production. By then all the legitimate rental houses in the SouthEast had placed their cameras on other shows and we were left holding the bag.

Look into the eyes of your SP and EP while you explain why no one is working. That is an expensive dose of reality.

e

[_MR_]

As to the upgrade option, we are interested in gaining a large customer base and keeping them. Upgrading is part of the program. So is system flexibility. We are building this camera as if we were the customers.

You little beauty! I was just about to ask the question of upgrading. Design a wonderful looking camera (which can be easily painted again by the panel and paint shop after its been thrashed and scratched in the field) and just change the inner parts.

That allows the camera to take on the personality of the operator over years of operation.

BTW, I read a story somewhere that the US Military had finally invented transparent aluminium for thin yet very strong windscreens on armoured vehicles. Gotta have a piece of that somewhere on this camera :)

[ericyoung]

There are gonna be SO many menus on this thing... lol

My request is please have a useable, fast-navigating menu system where everything is grouped as it needs to be so we can spend less time setting the darn thing up (and missing half of the settings we forgot to apply), and spend more time shooting.

Woot!

Just an idea.

Have the usual, paged menus with hopefully logical similar functions/parameters grouped together, but also have a hard button accessible status page which just has a very long scrollable list of all the user configurable settings, with an lock option to allow/disallow changing settings from that page. Sometimes I just want to change/check a setting and don't want to have to drill down and up through multiple menus.

[TimurCivan]

You little beauty! I was just about to ask the question of upgrading. Design a wonderful looking camera (which can be easily painted again by the panel and paint shop after its been thrashed and scratched in the field) and just change the inner parts.

That allows the camera to take on the personality of the operator over years of operation.

BTW, I read a story somewhere that the US Military had finally invented transparent aluminium for thin yet very strong windscreens on armoured vehicles. Gotta have a piece of that somewhere on this camera :)


Hey the aluminum glass is real!!!!!

Wow, its like in star trek, when they trade aluminum glass for a whale tank....

holy crap thats cool.

[im.thatoneguy]

It wasn't aluminum glass wasn't it transperasteel? It's been like 7 or 8 years since I've seen that movie, but I still remember Scotty trying to talk to a mouse.

[_MR_]

Off topic, but for those who are interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALON

"Aluminum oxynitride (AlON) is a transparent ceramic composed of aluminum, oxygen and nitrogen. It is marketed under the name ALON™ and described in U.S. Patent 4520116. The material remains solid up to 1200°C, and is harder than glass. When formed and polished as a window, the material currently (2005) costs about $USD10 to $USD15 per square inch.

"It is currently the crucial outer layer of experimental tranparent armor being considered by the US Air Force for the windows of armored vehicles. Other applications include semiconductors and retail fixtures."

[Matt Sconce]

that is too cool! I want a set of transparent armor!