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View Full Version : Under $10,000 HD Cameras


BobDiaz
12-29-2005, 05:52 PM
First, I'll say that my views on the cameras are NOT objective and I don't think anyone has fully objective views. We all have a bias one way or another and some features that are important to some, are not as important to others. What weight we give to the different strong/weak points of a camera defines our own view of the camera. Overall I think all the HD cameras out there are good considering the price point, but as I weigh the different features here's what I see:


SONY Z1:

Nice camera, great price, BUT ... (1) This is an interlaced camera. If you shoot in 30F or 24F, there is a loss in vertical resolution. (2) With a 15 frame GOP, a dropout will result in a 1/2 a second loss of video. I don't know how likely it occurs, but Murphy's Law says it will occur at the worst possible place in the video. (3) The Sony MPEG-II compression can't stand rapid changes in the image. A quick pan from side to side generates major motion artifacts.


CANON XL H1:

Canon fixed many of the problems that we see in the Sony Z1. The images appear to be sharp and the de-interlacing of the video appears to work for the 24F and 30F modes. Still it does have things that worry me: (1) The camera uses a 15 frame GOP and a single dropout results in a 1/2 a second loss of image. (2) I'm very unsure of how well the Canon's MPEG compression holds up. Is the camera sensitive to artifacts when there are rapid pans? I'll admin that there's a lot to this camera I just don't know.


JVC HD100U:

MY hopes were very high for this camera, BUT there are a number of troubling things about the camera: (1) The stock lens is poor quality and suffers for chromatic aberrations. Even the people at JVC admit the stock lens isn't that great. Yes, one can put a better lens on the camera, but the other zoom lens costs around twice as much as the camera. One can use an adapter and put 1/2" & 2/3" lenses on the camera, but you won't get wide angle with a 1/3" CCD. (2) The battery life is TOO SHORT. OK, one can adapt a bigger battery for the camera, but you need to add that to the total price for the camera. (3) SSE (Split Screen Effect); word is the problem is solved, BUT it still does worry me. The left and right side of each CCD uses its own A/D (Analog to Digital) converter. In theory, they should track exactly, BUT there are times where they do NOT track exactly and the left and right sides of the image show a slight mismatch.


PANASONIC HVX-200:

While I knew the HVX-200 was coming out soon, but it really didn't catch my attention until DV Expo West. On paper, it looked great, but didn't the Titanic also look great on paper? Will the camera fit my needs and not have some hidden problem(s) that make it a pain to work with?

I like to think of each bit of information as a data point in my decision process. The demos at DV Expo are a positive data point, the reports from Barry are another positive data point, Jan's presentation at DV Expo is another positive data point, and the images from the WEB are another positive data point. In a few weeks we'll get a whole lot more data points as the first users get their cameras and talk about it. It should be VERY interesting.


What do you think of the different cameras?


Bob Diaz

Cees Mutsaers
12-30-2005, 01:12 AM
Hi Bob I really like your "data point" approach and always read your contributions on this forum. I am curious how you will judge the HVX200 after a few months when have more data points :-)))

evinsky
12-30-2005, 04:39 AM
Having had the benefit of shooting with all four cameras I can tell you that all of them do a pretty good job. The Mpeg is a concern but not nearly as much as I had expected.
I found myself even a little impressed with the JVC. Not the lens but the format seems robust and the images a very filmic. Yes the battery is unusable as it comes. The Sony FX1 is a bargin as is it's little brother the A1. The Z1 is no match for the JVC at the same cost. But I hardly ever shoot 60I. The Canon was the biggest dissapointment, it records nice images, especially in 24F but they suffer from dynamic range and highlight issues even worse than an XL2. It is only usefull in controlled contrast situations. If that were'nt enough it is almost impossible to focus without an external HD LCD. The focus assist only works in standby and the VF is unusable. The lens is the standard Canon "Wet noodle" focus so it is impossible to get repeatable results. The HVX is not perfect, storage is going to be an interesting challenge as is the evolution to an IT based workflow, but the image and camera seem solid . It handles like a DVX on steroids and is so intuitive I barely needed ten minutes to start getting great shots. Exposure and focus are dead on and the P2 system was almost refreshing in it's discipline. Anyway, I bought an HVX but I may also pick up an HD100 used for certain longer form things, it's my second choice.

insanityfw
12-30-2005, 09:00 AM
Hey Evinsky. Thanks for the opinions on the cameras. It's nice to list there features, but that doesn't mean much until we know what those features are doing in real-world situations...and I'm sure from all that you seem to have going on that you're getting plenty of seat time with these cameras. Good opinions to hear.

"data points"...Bob, that is so techie that it makes me giggle like a school girl. :)

Stevet
12-30-2005, 11:32 PM
As always, nice read Bob.


Wow, I had some thoughts on the current sub 10K cameras, but Evinsky
layed out exactly what I'm thinking.

The JVC seems like a good second choice. Yes, I know about the CA and the past SSE issues. I agree, from what's I've seen, it does have a filmic look to the 720/24P footage.
One thing for sure, it looks cool :)

If the HVX200 offers good picture quality and lives up to what we've heard and read about, how can you go wrong. It's got the formats we all want 1080/24P, 720/60P, 720/24P, and many more.....

Steve

Robert_Niemann
12-31-2005, 08:39 AM
The Canon [...] suffer[s] from dynamic range and highlight issues even worse than an XL2.
What about this one: http://www.dvforever.com/upload/CanonXLH1/IMG_0123.JPG. Is this not an example for a good contrast/dynamic range?

esperman
12-31-2005, 09:51 AM
no. it's not.

doccutter
12-31-2005, 10:36 AM
That image shows great dynamic range if you don't like detail or dynamic range.

stephenlnoe
12-31-2005, 11:41 AM
What about this one: http://www.dvforever.com/upload/CanonXLH1/IMG_0123.JPG. Is this not an example for a good contrast/dynamic range?
I have to somewhat agree with esperman. My "hands on" with the XL-H1 resulted in a poor dynamic range. The H1 is not second nature to me though, and there could be settings that enhance it's range found deeper in the menu's.

They are all nice camera's and anyone could come up with a compelling reason to buy each. I personally think JVC is on to something good with ProHD and ProHDXE.

esperman
12-31-2005, 12:13 PM
wise words stephen.
All of these cameras are viable options, depending on what we need for a specific project.