POLL: How much will Red cost?

[boo]

i know it's still early and we have no idea of price point. at what highest price range would you purchase the red camera?

[Luis Caffesse]

hmmm, what if you think it will be between 45-50K?
:)

Not that I do, but looks like you've got a gap in your poll there.
(why does that sound like it should be a euphimism of some kind?)

[cineasta_dom]

I think it will be around 15,000 to 20,000.

[escozooz]

umm look how much the CineAlta costs....and this camera "is or will be" much more sophisticated...:engel017:

That easily places it above 40k. I would love it to be under 20k though.

[Mr. Blonde]

40-50k sounds reasonable, while allowing for quality build as well. :beer:

[mcshyd]

i'm going to have to start whoring my sweet sweet ass for this one. thanks a lot, jim.

[cineasta_dom]

I think (and it's been mentioned before) that if the price range would have been around 40K the president/owner dude wouldn't be hanging around this forum.

But you're right in terms of technology and price point in regards to the CineAlta.

[spencer]

I'm not sure what this poll is asking. If the poll is how much would I pay, as it suggests, well, let's just say if were under 10 thousand I'd beg borrow and steal to get it. Nothing would stop me. Under 20 thousands I'd be more reserved, and higher than that, well, i think i still got some time before I need a camera that good.

[escozooz]

It will probably be a camera you rent. Like who owns their own 35mm cam? :undecided

[Luis Caffesse]

It will probably be a camera you rent. Like who owns their own 35mm cam? :undecided

There was a time where only post studios owned editing systems too.
But times are changing.

[Shawn Murphy]

8k is a nice sweet spot given the hypothetical specs, but apparently they'll have to make some magic happen in the manufacturing process; but with a lot of money and passion amazing things could happen (yes, I'm hoping, even though 8 grand is still pretty high for most of us)

[Isaac_Brody]

I guess price will probably hinge on the purpose of the Red camera. Is the point of the camera to compete with the big established companies out there? Or will the point of the camera be to bring the higher end technologies to a prosumer level? Hopefully the latter and the price is set just above manufacturing costs. Does anyone else feel like they're about to go crazy? Just when the HVX hype began to die down a new hope comes on the scene. I gotta shoot something before I lose it. :undecided

[escozooz]

If the day comes that I may own a Arri 35mm and a digital equivolent...well I'd be happy. :grin:

[boo]

well pretty much everyone is excited about this camera. w/ these kind of specs, it's a filmmakers dream. but at some point, reality has to set in as this type of technology is not cheap. jim mentioned in one of the threads that if he had to pay $250000 for this camera, he would not be happy. for many of us i don't even think $30000-$50000 would be something to jump on otherwise we'd be already hanging out on the varicam and sdx forums as owners of those cams. this is one helluva camera if all goes as planned but maybe this poll will possibly help jim on a target audience. having such a huge presence on dvxuser and dvinfo seems to be targeting our type of audience. your thoughts?

[Isaac_Brody]

I doubt that most billionaires consider 20,000 dollars a lot of money, especially for a camera. Hopefully Jim settles on a final price that's a little more relative for the average DVXuser.

[MatthewRyanMCK]

there is no way realistically that if they can put all those features, we so dearly want, in a camera under 20 to 30 grand. i love to see it under 10k but it just wont happen. i should be more optimistic. but its reality.

[spencer]

It seems like a conflict of interest. It's as if the camera is designed for the prosumer market and is attracting the interest of the prosumer market, but the cost of materials puts it out of most of our reach.

Here's hoping that Jim pulls a rabbit out of his hat on this one... Or some miracle production method that keeps the price tag under 10 grand.

Either way, I suppose success is around every corner. But, he is a billionaire, so he doesn't need much more money.... In which case I propose that the memberos this board should get a discount (WINKING FACE)

[im.thatoneguy]

Even if the camera is 20k, Everyone forgets the huge break in the affordability chain: storage.

Who here is able to record uncompressed 4k images at 24 frames per second? You're looking at a solid state RAID 0 with enormous storage.

Only way I see the camera even working at 24p with affordable storage would be essentialy 6 "still cameras" with some sort of spinning mirror that gives each CMOS chip a chance to process and record to lower speed high capacity memory. Either way, you're still looking at a less than portable solution.

[MarcusX]

Why would anyone want to record uncompressed 4k images? It's a nice option for moviemakers with a decent budget. But most people here will shoot 1080p 4:2:2 or something.

[zuvis]

If they will manufacture camera in china or some other cheap-labor country it´s a chance it might be under 10k [globalization].

I checked my local rental - cheap zeiss cine lenses to rent - 45$/day, for me it´s livable scenario..

As for storage is a bit too expensive now for 2k/4:4:4 - today i would shoot 1080p 4:2:2, but tomorrow, when holographic disk will apear in the market , maybe i go for 2k.

[Andrew M]

If they will manufacture camera in china or some other cheap-labor country it´s a chance it might be under 10k [globalization].

I checked my local rental - cheap zeiss cine lenses to rent - 45$/day, for me it´s livable scenario..

As for storage is a bit too expensive now for 2k/4:4:4 - today i would shoot 1080p 4:2:2, but tomorrow, when holographic disk will apear in the market , maybe i go for 2k.

I agree with you on the lense issue. Many people have brought up the lense issue like it's a problem saying "Oh NO! - film lenses are expensive!" - but who says you need to own lenses? - By renting you will be able to use the lastest and greatest and won't have sell your left kidney on ebay. This is a movie camera. Movies take time and cost money - and therefore need to be scheduled. If you know when you will be shooting then you can plan when you need to rent the lenses:thumbsup:

PLUS - you could always try to find a bargain for a decent zoom or set of primes and just rent the other lenses you need.

[Andrew M]

Well as far as price goes I would like to pay under 20k and I really think that jim won't be selling these babies for under 10K.

I'd say a fair price (and yes I know it is steep) would be inbetween 15 and 20k. BUT only time will tell what this thing will cost. Damn it!, I hate waiting. :angry:

[toke lahti]

It will probably be a camera you rent. Like who owns their own 35mm cam? :undecided I think the ideal situation for independent artist would be owning the tools.
That would free a lot of productions from limiting time schedules.
"I have a great idea, tomorrow I'll just go and rent the guitar/brushes":happy:

As for the price, if the camera would be modular enough, cheapest setup might be around 20k and with all spices 80k...
Of course the biggest impact to the price will be the volume.

[Luis Caffesse]

I think the ideal situation for independent artist would be owning the tools.

I suppose that may have been an inspiration for the name RED? :)

Putting the "means of production" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) in the hands of independent filmmakers, quite literally.

Somehow I don't think Marx had film production in mind....
but I'll take it!

[Andrew M]

"As for the price, if the camera would be modular enough, cheapest setup might be around 20k and with all spices 80k...
Of course the biggest impact to the price will be the volume."

That sound's logical. Not ideal, but logical. I would like to have a decently accecorized version without having to rob a bank. So i'm hoping the custom accecories won't be too pricey.

[Shawn Murphy]

Am I missing the point to this Poll somehow?

The people who are developing this camera aren't discussing the price, so is there some reason to be guessing?

At some point the price and full details will be released, when the developer is ready.

It's like guessing the price for a yet to be produced 3D Virtual tapeless camera with full one inch CCD's, that may be in developement, or not, maybe. :huh:


Because it's fun!

[boo]

Am I missing the point to this Poll somehow?

The people who are developing this camera aren't discussing the price, so is there some reason to be guessing?

At some point the price and full details will be released, when the developer is ready.

It's like guessing the price for a yet to be produced 3D Virtual tapeless camera with full one inch CCD's, that may be in developement, or not, maybe. :huh:

actually, the title is rather misleading. the poll is rather, "at what highest price point" would you purchase the red camera. i tried to change the original title but i don't think i'm able to do that. only the body of the message.

[toke lahti]

Only way I see the camera even working at 24p with affordable storage would be essentialy 6 "still cameras" with some sort of spinning mirror that gives each CMOS chip a chance to process and record to lower speed high capacity memory.

Hmm, Canon 1Dmk2N (what a model name!) shoots 70Mpix/s with 12bits/pix.
With 24fps that would be 2.9Mpix/frame.
So maybe RED isn't rocket science or sci-fi thing any more. We just need somebody to put the parts together.

[Luis Caffesse]

So maybe RED isn't rocket science or sci-fi thing any more. We just need somebody to put the parts together.

That's pretty much exactly what Jim said over on DVinfo, about it not being 'rocket science' and using existing technology.

Once again...Bring it On!!

[canasian]

I hope to all goodness that it goes for under 10k, but I highly doubt it. I'm just thinking, "what on earth am I going to edit the footage on?".

[Zig_Zigman]

At least Mr. Jannard knows from this poll that most of his market is in the sub 20k range.

I say it comes in at 15,999.00 - without lenses of course.

[Gordon JL]

Can't there be several models, so that we can pick and choose which model we would find sufficient? I mean, for someone who only wants 1080p maximum resolution, or would only want to use 1 or 2 out of the many footage acquisitions, that person could save a lot of money right there.

[Tzedekh]

Can't there be several models, so that we can pick and choose which model we would find sufficient? I mean, for someone who only wants 1080p maximum resolution, or would only want to use 1 or 2 out of the many footage acquisitions, that person could save a lot of money right there.I assume that, unless they build several models that are significantly different (eg, especially different sensors), the base camera will be essentially the same for everyone. Features could be activated via EPROMs, with those wanting more advanced features paying substantially more. But how would you feel if you knew that it actually cost more to develop systems with this feature-activation technology than it would have just to build one base camera and let people upgrade through peripherals -- lenses, storage solutions, etc? Would you want to know that everyone had essentially the same hardware that cost Jannard many million of dollars to develop, but that a simple 5-minute firmware upgrade would cost an extra $10,000? Or would you prefer to have everything that Jannard developed and upgrade via those things that he can't as easily control (hard disks, flash memory). Even lens technology -- to which he's no stranger -- is sufficiently mature such that probably even he can't produce the equivalent of a $50,000+ UHD zoom for $1,000. That is why he wants to make acquiring lenses as painless as possible -- multiple lens options, renting rather than buying, finding deals on old 35-mm lenses, etc.

[toke lahti]

Tzedekh, did you read my post about modularity?

Anyway, I'd be also happy if there would be REDjr & redSR.
Anything with 2/3" or bigger sensor and price tag under 20k would be superb!

[Tzedekh]

Tzedekh, did you read my post about modularity?

Anyway, I'd be also happy if there would be REDjr & redSR.
Anything with 2/3" or bigger sensor and price tag under 20k would be superb!Yes, I read your post, and I agree with the modular approach. Your latest post, however, seems to suggest two different cameras. If so, I think that developing two separate cameras with two different imagers would significantly increase R & D and probably make the "senior" camera cost more than it would if there were only one camera. What might be possible is a programmable CMOS chip that could be configured with different imaging areas and resolutions (eg, two-thirds inch with 1,920 x 1,080 for those that don't need a super-size, UHD imager). If the base camera were $10,000, it would be competitive (when equipped with lens and storage) with the midlevel Sony and JVC MPEG2-based HD offerings that should appear in 2006, yet should be far more flexible.

[dat5150]

I don't understand why the Red people are bleeding over on the DVX/HVX BB unless they see a market here? I don't know what the budget is of the users of this BB, but I'm willing to bet its under 10k. What does that tell you about the price of the Red?...otherwise they are wasting their time here or its just to get a buzz going.

[Tzedekh]

I don't understand why the Red people are bleeding over on the DVX/HVX BB unless they see a market here? I don't know what the budget is of the users of this BB, but I'm willing to bet its under 10k. What does that tell you about the price of the Red?...otherwise they are wasting their time here or its just to get a buzz going.I'm sure the whole Communist ("Red") Revolution metaphor hasn't escaped you. The members of this forum are the proletariat, and Red will bring about the revolution against the Established Powers: the electronics giants Sony, Panasonic, JVC, and Canon; the filmmaking establishment; and celluloid (?). I think it's all silly, good fun. But I honestly believe that even if Red would be priced well above $10,000 (say, $20,000 or $25,000), the price might be sufficiently lower -- and the feature set significantly better -- than those of offerings by the big video equipment manufacturers that members of this and similar forums would seriously consider spending more individually or pooling resources for camera "timeshares." Plus there are probably members sitting on film camera equipment they are having a hard time renting out who would be able to use or rent out their lenses.

[watson]

i highly doubt this is going to be under 20K. And if it is, then you are going to have to go out and buy some 35mm lenses (and no not still lenses but cinema lenses). Thats going to add another good amount to the total price. IN one post, they mention using the PL 35mm lenses you already have. Ha, i highly doubt many people on this board just happen to have a set of 35mm lenses sitting around.

Now why are they spending time on this forum? Well some people on here might be in the position to buy. But i also beat a lot of people are in the position to possibly rent. I was extremely excited to read about this, even realizing I’m not going to have the money needed. However, this shows that the industry is headed in the right direction and that i might possibly be able to rent a "red" camera and a 35mm lenses package and shoot some amazing footage.

That’s just my thoughts.

[The Machinist]

Now that is a point of view that makes alot of sense in terms of the target market of this camera.

[joe 1008]

I would say the next step comes out of the digital photographer corner: There are already some 2/3" consumer still cameras that do SD and they will evolve quickly. Today a Canon eos 5d with a 35mm ccd sensor costs about 3000$ (though without any video function) and I wouldn`t wonder if a camera like that within two yeras would be able to store at least 720p. So I would say: in 2008 a 35mm video camera that can store 1080p won´t cost more than twice that price. Thanks to the 35mm adapters we already have nowadays the 35 optics will also be far more aviable and storage, let´s say based on todays p2 cards will be affordable. Sum it up to 10K and you will have a complete camera.

[joe 1008]

Today there already exist 2/3" consumer photo cameras that store SD in full resolution. And they evolve quickly. A today´s Canon EOS 5D with a full frame cmos sensor cost about 3000$ (though without any video option, yet) and I wouln´t wonder if such a camera within two yeras would be able to store 1080p. Thanks to the 35mm adapters that already exist today 35mm optics will be also aviable at a decent price and storage, let´s say based on todays P2 cards will be much more affordable. Sum it up and you will comfortably stay below 10k for a wholly equipped camera.

[joe 1008]

sorry - there was some hazzle with my computer, so I posted it twice...

[gibbie]

This camera will sell for exactly $28,489.00 (what will I win ?)

If the Red comes in anywhere under $50,000 it will be an outright revolution. Or am I reading the specs wrong? Last I heard the Dalsa Origin was supposed to go for $400,000 or so. I don't think you can even buy the Genesis.

So, even if I can't afford this, I am still excited by the shake up it could cause in the industry.

Just wanted to say SOMETHING. This is so cool.

[myfriendimage]

I would rather rent the genesis though, 6000 lines of resolution.You cant buy any panavision products only rent.

[gibbie]

I would rather sell my mother and own my own Red. :beer:

[myfriendimage]

I would rather sell my mother and own my own Red. :beer:

then sell the rest of your family for the equipment to run it.

[gibbie]

This camera isn't made yet. But it looks like it is going to be scalable to the workflow that best suits you. As prices come down, your resolution can go up. But, if I can't afford it, I'd rather use my DVX than rent. If I knew what the hell I was doing, then I'd probably rent something too.

Cheers.

[Jarred Land]

This camera will sell for exactly $28,489.00 (what will I win ?)

If the Red comes in anywhere under $50,000 it will be an outright revolution. Or am I reading the specs wrong? Last I heard the Dalsa Origin was supposed to go for $400,000 or so. I don't think you can even buy the Genesis.

So, even if I can't afford this, I am still excited by the shake up it could cause in the industry.

Just wanted to say SOMETHING. This is so cool.

Its gonna be pretty interesting to see what the pricing of RED is.. My wild guess is it will be below Varicam pricing, but for sure above most other consumer products out there... I just dont see how it could possibly be any lower than the $20-$30k price range.

[gibbie]

Its gonna be pretty interesting to see what the pricing of RED is.. My wild guess is it will be below Varicam pricing, but for sure above most other consumer products out there... I just dont see how it could possibly be any lower than the $20-$30k price range.

I agree, Jarred. In fact, to me, the Varicam is kind of the realistic model to beat. If the Red is anywhere near as low as 30k, (with the specs close to as listed), that's gotta stir things up. Who would by a Varicam at its current price?

I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Still learning the DVX100a. My friend and I are considering upgrading to the HVX, but now we'll have to wait and see what the Red does (shooting stuff in the meantime, of course!)

[Jarred Land]

yeah it will be very interesting to find out the price point to see if its realistic for alot of people, I think it may be.

But i wouldnt hold of on buying anything for the RED.. i mean we have no idea what its gonna cost, and its not going to be rolling out for at least a year.

[thisiswells]

Kinetta was never going to be above $50k and neither will this camera be above $50k.

With cameras like the Grass Valley HD for $20K and the Sony XDCAM-HD for $17K, it would be a really, really bad move to price it any higher, even if it is better. A year or two from now when RED is for sale, others may have 2/3" flash-based HD cameras for even less than $17k.

Like Jim said, they aren't building this camera for TODAY, they are building it for the FUTURE. Technology will cost less in the future, which is partly why this camera is possible and why filmmaker Joe should be able to afford it, perhaps with a second mortage anyways.

[joe 1008]

But i wouldnt hold of on buying anything for the RED.. i mean we have no idea what its gonna cost, and its not going to be rolling out for at least a year.

Because there are no expensive moving parts and electronic products tend to double their power or cut their price in a 50% within 18 month (very roughly said) a today estimation of 20k might be $9999 when the RED is finally coming. I´m just an optimist, that´s all...:thumbsup: But in that point you´re more than right: We shouldn´t sit around and wait. It´s all just speculation.

[Greg Lowry]

RED is not a consumer product and no matter how successful it is, it will not benefit from the economies of scale relative to other high volume electronics products. We're talking about custom chips, custom accessories, etc. Don't hold your breath expecting Moore's Law to cut the price (whatever that may be) in half.

[Jarred Land]

your kinda right Greg.. but using Moores law ( obviously not literally, as this isnt processors ) as an example to imaging sensors holds up.. sensors get faster and cheaper at a very quick place. Even if they design the chip only and offload the fabrication to a seperate vendor, that vendor's fabrication quality and capability obviously changes at a similar rate. I personally am very close with a HiDef camera manufacture that manufactures high speed HD cameras, and every 2 years they come out with a new model... and they do not fit in the economy of scale either.

[joe 1008]

Fotographic sensors are getting cheaper at a very fast pace and there are going to appear 35mm sensors at the higher prosumer-level. I know there is a difference between sensors for video and those for still cameras. But is that difference that big that we shouldn´t expect an affordable HD video-spin-off in the next years? Excuse my lack of knowledge, please.

[MarcusX]

I know there is a difference between sensors for video and those for still cameras. But is that difference that big that we shouldn´t expect an affordable HD video-spin-off in the next years? Excuse my lack of knowledge, please.

That's what I'm asking myself. Take the Canon EOS 5D, something like $2500. It can record 3 or 5 fps, but I bet the slow memory and the fancy DSP is the bottleneck here and not the sensor.
Add some fast memory, a faster DSP, tweak the sensor a bit and you'll get 24 fps. Add some output-options, put it in a nice camerabody and that's it. Why the hell should this cost $200,000?

And you have to know how the costs for a electronic gadgets like the EOS 5D, HVX200 or a vacuum cleaner comes together.
You have to pay a bunch of engineers, prototyp testers (did this a few years ago in a huge company), licenses, production (some million-$-machines + severel thousand workers), product support, distribution and advertising.
The actual parts and material for the camera is just a small part of the whole package.

The RED camera does'nt need advertising. Already done.
Distribution? Give me the address and I will show up, pull the thing out of your hands and pay cash.
Support? Hell, what's this board for, anyway? ;)

[joe 1008]

Take the Canon EOS 5D, something like $2500. It can record 3 or 5 fps, but I bet the slow memory and the fancy DSP is the bottleneck here and not the sensor.
Add some fast memory, a faster DSP, tweak the sensor a bit and you'll get 24 fps. Add some output-options, put it in a nice camerabody and that's it. Why the hell should this cost $200,000?
The Canon 5D has a resolution of 8mp. HD in 1080p is about 2mp: So if the Canon can shoot and store 5 fps with 8mp resolution it should be able to store 20fps at 1080p and certainly 24p and 30p at 720p. It´s all more or less the same amount of data. Maybe the problem ist, that photografic sensors have a certain delay to get ready for the next frame, or something like that. The experts should know: (Yes, please, I´m really eager to get a response about that issue! :thumbsup:)
At least it should be already possible to incorporate SD video at 30p like much cheaper cameras already do. That would already be very useful for a lot of things like low budged comercials or videoclips. Maybe it´s all rather about politics than about tecnology. Maybe they are not interested in offering something with certain professional value at a quiet low price. Should that be so I hope they get forced to change that politics when the RED hits the marked. I could imagine that Canon might be able to give a quick response. Competition would be good for us because prices would rush down quickly independend of whatever the RED might cost in the beginning.

[kprince]

The Canon 5D has a resolution of 8mp.

It's actually 12.8mp, just a correction.

[jamestmather]

Kinetta was never going to be above $50k and neither will this camera be above $50k.

I received an email from the Kinetta guy telling me that the camera was priced at 65,000 - so much for never going to be above 50K. :(

[joe 1008]

It's actually 12.8mp, just a correction.
Yes, you´r right. Mixed it up with the 20D.

[joe 1008]

There are many people in this forum who claim the RED will be a 50 to 200!!!K camera. We shouldn´t forget that this forum was created for and by people that mostly work with a DVX. Now HD is a topic so the RED is in the right place here but we should think about what we REALLY need and what the RED might be able to offer to us. Most people who say the RED will be a very expensive camera say it because it is able to shoot in 4k. Most of these people know much more than I do so I assume they are probably right. So I started to think "How much of a RED we might get for a lower budged?" Because this camera is really compelling - only the dead don´t want to get it:

The people who are developing the RED claim that it will be modular. How modular? I think, because there are no moving parts in this camera anymore, the RED will be, basically seen, a computercase with a lensmount. It might be a beautifully designed lightweight case but it still will be just a hollow case. You would fix the lenses you want to use, you would insert the sensor you need (a single sensor should be easily changeable, just like you change a 35mm roll), there should be slots waiting for the additional electronic gears needed for data processing and/or compression. So you might build a SD camera, a 720p camera, a 1080p camera or a 4K camera - each one a RED - but, compared one to an other, they would be very, very different REDs.

Maybe this is the answer why the RED is present in a forum like this where people discuss how to work with a low budget. Maybe everybody here is right: There will be a 10k RED AND there will be a 100 or even 200K RED. It might simply depend on how you see it and how you build it.

So, do you think it will be possible in the near future to build a 10K RED in this modular way? If WE do without 4k though the RED does?

[Chev]

if thats the way theyre planning this, it would be hella revolutionary.

and if only Red ever produced the various modules they could get huge huge revenues over years with upgrades.

they could even sell the case at a loss to start with.

yes, yes, yes.

if thats the plan, its very solid. (if not Jim Jannard is reading this and scrapping the original in favour of it)


also... what i wanna know... will it actually be red? i hate gaudy electronics. :'(

[johlan]

According to this website
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/finalcut6.html

Well Idont weather it adds credibility to the camera or if the rumor about fcp 6 lacks it putting these products togeather.

Johan

[zato1]

I don't think it will cost more than 10k body only
it is modular....so you can choose the best way to backup the file
and I think you can connect dirctly to a pc like andromeda with mac mini
and consider the digital slr
....now you can shoot more than 10 single images/sec in jpg format until the flash card
if full and are 700$ (panasonic lumix line 9pics/sec leica lens....):happy:
how many time did we have to wait until one of these product arrive to
shoot 24 single pics on a 4 sd card slot in raid 1 mode (like the p2 technology):cheesy: ? I think not much....or better transfer directly to a pc through firewire port and a software that can link the individual frame!...the price targhet is fixed max about 2-3K range price!
so I think that the future is not the video hardwere company but the combination of video and photo company knowledge what we have to look at, if we want that our shoot will be like film

Matteo Pozzi

...sorry for my poor english

[terrorpictures]

maybe if i work for one whole year, and i sell a lung and give some sperm i'll be able to afford this. Perhaps a kydney to.. how much do those go for these days? This cam is for people who have lots of money, nobody else but high class film makers will be able to have this cam. Again great cam, highed priced. I think a reasonable price is under 5k.

[joe 1008]

There are millions of low-payed people who drive a car and pollute our planet. Why not sell your car in stead of a lung and buy a RED??? Fight visual pollution, buy a good cam! (Or a DVX, HVX, Viper etc...)

[dvInsight]

As others have said, Red will probably be a modular based system. That being said, then there will be a base price that gets you the custom ASIC chipset which will pull the data off of the (hopefully cmos) sensor at the whatever framerate you set via the software/menu selection given.

The software itself maybe modular as well. Maybe the DV formatted 19 to 25Mbits is sold at $495.00, 50Mbits and under at $795.00 and so on.

Add the lens mount system of your choice (all based on price point) and you really might have a nice system with unheard of colorspace/price/performance for under $15,000.00.

If Jaun can juice up the chipset of a DVX100 series and produce the Andromeda product, then I think it is fair to say RED may blow us all away.

I shoot with a Canon 1DMK2 (an 8.3 megapixel camera) in Adobe RGB color space at 8-10fps with slow shutter speeds for enhanced motion effects and it imports into Final cut just great. The cool part is that I have a Photoshop Action that allows me to bring in my stuff at any aspect ratio I choose. So hopefully, and it has been alluded to anyway, the Red system software will be able to do this on the fly, or in post. Just imagine being able to do Kens Burns motion passes over your 24p by 4K images. Framing, reframing and post options will be mind blowing, so yes buy stock in the storage sector. We are going to need it.
--

Rob

[govindaBLU]

The University of Tennessee gives $80,000 if you give up a testical for med. testing!!

I'm thinking of it this way..if I sell one. that's only 1 billon less sperm from the original 2 billion!-- I think that's still enough for fertilization in the near future if I ever decide to!!! :P

And they give free prosthetic replacements! (for those who would feel funny walking around with just one!)

me and my love for cameras--damn

G. Kumar Sharma

[PaPa]

The University of Tennessee gives $80,000 if you give up a testical for med. testing!!

I'm thinking of it this way..if I sell one. that's only 1 billon less sperm from the original 2 billion!-- I think that's still enough for fertilization in the near future if I ever decide to!!! :P

And they give free prosthetic replacements! (for those who would feel funny walking around with just one!)

me and my love for cameras--damn

G. Kumar Sharma

um... umm..... .... *gasp* uhhhhh. hrmmmm. puhhhh? hrmmmmm? ahhhh.. uh.... huh?

[nycfilmmaker]

is the RED camera a concept? like is this monster hitting stores this year?
I just don’t see it being cheap under 15k. First off the only reason why xl,
hvx, HD100 or the sony HDV’s are under 10k is because the companies are
manufacturing at economies of scale. If RED doesn’t have a big Japanese
backer or a high volume manufacturer that could streamline and integrate the
RED camera into their operations that camera is going to cost 10s of
thousands like >50K

[Emanuel]

There are many people in this forum who claim the RED will be a 50 to 200!!!K camera. We shouldn´t forget that this forum was created for and by people that mostly work with a DVX. Now HD is a topic so the RED is in the right place here but we should think about what we REALLY need and what the RED might be able to offer to us. Most people who say the RED will be a very expensive camera say it because it is able to shoot in 4k. Most of these people know much more than I do so I assume they are probably right. So I started to think "How much of a RED we might get for a lower budged?" Because this camera is really compelling - only the dead don´t want to get it:

The people who are developing the RED claim that it will be modular. How modular? I think, because there are no moving parts in this camera anymore, the RED will be, basically seen, a computercase with a lensmount. It might be a beautifully designed lightweight case but it still will be just a hollow case. You would fix the lenses you want to use, you would insert the sensor you need (a single sensor should be easily changeable, just like you change a 35mm roll), there should be slots waiting for the additional electronic gears needed for data processing and/or compression. So you might build a SD camera, a 720p camera, a 1080p camera or a 4K camera - each one a RED - but, compared one to an other, they would be very, very different REDs.

Maybe this is the answer why the RED is present in a forum like this where people discuss how to work with a low budget. Maybe everybody here is right: There will be a 10k RED AND there will be a 100 or even 200K RED. It might simply depend on how you see it and how you build it.

So, do you think it will be possible in the near future to build a 10K RED in this modular way? If WE do without 4k though the RED does?Good points. We are hoping the same opinion from him (Jim Jannard).

[Jarred Land]

I dont know what the price will be but its gotta be one hell of a twist on economics if this camera is even around 10k. But remember, Jim isnt an idiot, hes not the kinda guy that would hang out here and waste his time just to shock us with a $100,000 price tag.

But.. the HVX is even modular to some degree, its very easy to turn the HVX into a $30,000 camera. I think the idea of starting with some sort of affordable base, and buying addons as we go along, is the best solution for it's targeted demographic.

[Haakon]

But.. the HVX is even modular to some degree, its very easy to turn the HVX into a $30,000 camera.
That's so true... I can't believe how much I've already invested into the system! FF, mattebox, monitor mounts, a 35 adapter... MTV really needs to start airing "Pimp My Camera" soon...

[joe 1008]

MTV really needs to start airing "Pimp My Camera" soon...
:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG):D:2vrolijk_08::Drogar-Evil(DBG)::grin::Drogar-Love(DBG)::laugh::cheesy::thumbsup:

[taubkin]

That's so true... I can't believe how much I've already invested into the system! FF, mattebox, monitor mounts, a 35 adapter... MTV really needs to start airing "Pimp My Camera" soon...

Yeah, and it should definately be red! (Just beware with the camera reflections!)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7459/sred31ez.jpg

[joe 1008]

http://home.san.rr.com/tsukashima/photos/hal.jpg

[androbot2084]

If this camera is supposed to be a quantum leap in technology that skips sequential steps to achieve technological advancement then I want this camera available at a low price point that skips sequential discounts. Thats why I voted for the under $10,000 price point because sooner or later that is what the camera will eventually sell for so it might as well be sooner.

[Jarred Land]

If this camera is supposed to be a quantum leap in technology that skips sequential steps to achieve technological advancement then I want this camera ....

I dont think i have ever head the words "quantum leap in technology" and "technological advancement" used to describe cheap.

I think if Red was going to be cheap, in the sub $10,000 range, they would of used 1/3 chips. But Red doesnt want to be cheap, they want to be the affordable. I guess, in retrospect, if you compare it to a Viper or F900 and the RED comes in (crossing my fingers) under 50k, then yeah, you could call it cheap if that floats your boat.

[joe 1008]

Let´s talk about the price tag in 9 days 8 hours 45 minutes and errr... 57, no 56, no 55 seconds...

[turing]

:Drogar-Evil(DBG):I have a bridge I could sell you :P

If they can actually put out a functional 4k box that has a pl mount on front and is portable, and it is 60% or less of the cost to rent or buy of an Origin, Viper or Genesis, then Mr. Jannard will have a market.

If the camera is in un the sub-$50k range, I think he'll have a large market.

But please: the little laptop array they will likely have - parts only - will be a few thousand, much less the sensor, controller, housing, etc.

So: anything under $50k counts as revolutionary - anything under $100k and the camera will be available to rent all over the place for the same price or less than a varicam.

And all of the shops with F900 and Varicam packages will be pissed :)

I wonder why they chose 4k, seems like a weird decision. Perhaps it was only incrementally more expensive, and you can easily subsample..

Very interested to see what shows up @ NAB. It will heavily influence my decision about an HVX200 purchase.

_a

[Stephen W]

I imagine they chose 4k because a) They thought it was possible, b) It's a VERY big leap over what's currently available and c) It's where the high-end digital-intermediate market is (though there are already moves into 6k for DI).

[etiennecaron]

I'm sure that Red with be around the price of this...



check this out:
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/


From their web site's FAQ:

I can't afford a complete cinema package at this time. Can I purchase the remote SI-1920HD-GE camera head and software and use my own PC hardware for recording?

Yes. The pricing for a camera head system, which includes the SI-1920HD-GE camera head, a copy of Prospect HD Edit, Premiere Pro 2.0, a Arri-base-plate adapter, and two Fujinon c-mount lenses will retail for $12,500. Please contact us for certified systems for recording.

[AshG]

That is a 2/3" 1080p camera... and for $12,500 you have no way to record your footage. Still a great price but I suspect RED will come it at quite a bit more...


ash =o)

[Jarred Land]

Yes.. all these solutions dont come near the capability of Red, but its good to see other companies at least trying to play the game.

[Fugitive]

and for $12,500 you have no way to record your footage.

Werent you suppossed to record to a hard-disk? Those arent "that" expensive.

[Jarred Land]

This Silicon Image thing is very close to what we were working with a few years ago.. trying to make high speed industrial cameras and force them into cinematic environments (check www.purposelabs.com (http://www.purposelabs.com) )



... its the same boat... we used a very similar camera. And man was a pain in the ass.....


No HD-SDI or anything other than Ethernet (which, mind you was kinda cool, and we liked it) meant we didnt really have very many preview options And the recording options where even more limited. It just was like trying to paint a horse with stripes. It worked, just took us alot of effort to make it work.

The fact that the 1920 resolution is from a bayer sensor worries me. It has to go through a process of demosaicing to extract the colors, in which corners of pixels get lobbed off and some odd artifacts can start to happen. Long story short.. the true resolution of a bayer sensor is about 25% less than it is stated. Most likely why all the demo footage is 720p, but who knows. I expect it to perform much like the Sony XD camera.

I guess we only have a week to wait and see. I have a feeling though if the SI is anywhere near the Red booth that poor little camera is gonna be very, very sad. Kinda like the fat kid with the 80s haircut singing songs 3 years old.

[turing]

here's hoping that it's kick ass, does what people want, and (unlike the kinetta) actually hits the market.

I'm seriously considering an HVX package, but I do have this nagging feeling that we're in a transition period, and I'd be paying for a bunch of tape transport for an HVX that would just never be used. maybe I should just shoot s16 and scan :P

Funny - I also think cars are in a similar transition, though on a larger time scale... we'll see what happens with hybrids when there is low sulpher diesel in the US...

and, for your amusement:

http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1025

hey, with enough grip tape you could probably build a camera out of k-nex. it would certainly get you lots of WTF? looks on the street :)

... last time I was at NAB I saw the infamous blue screen of death displayed 50' x 50' on the exterior screen of the MGM grand. I laughed so hard I nearly blew sprite out my nose.

:beer:

[Andrew M]

This Silicon Image thing is very close to what we were working with a few years ago.. trying to make high speed industrial cameras and force them into cinematic environments (check www.purposelabs.com (http://www.purposelabs.com) )





... its the same boat... we used a very similar camera. And man was a pain in the ass.....



No HD-SDI or anything other than Ethernet (which, mind you was kinda cool, and we liked it) meant we didnt really have very many preview options And the recording options where even more limited. It just was like trying to paint a horse with stripes. It worked, just took us alot of effort to make it work.

The fact that the 1920 resolution is from a bayer sensor worries me. It has to go through a process of demosaicing to extract the colors, in which corners of pixels get lobbed off and some odd artifacts can start to happen. Long story short.. the true resolution of a bayer sensor is about 25% less than it is stated. Most likely why all the demo footage is 720p, but who knows. I expect it to perform much like the Sony XD camera.

I guess we only have a week to wait and see. I have a feeling though if the SI is anywhere near the Red booth that poor little camera is gonna be very, very sad. Kinda like the fat kid with the 80s haircut singing songs 3 years old.


Jarred,
Does the SI camera use the EXACT same chip as in the "purpose labs" camera you used to shoot that footage - cause man, I must say what I have watched thus far of the purpose lab stuff has been very impressive - the 500fps water thing is just gorgeous. (p.s I realize that the SI camera can't do 500 fps)

[Jarred Land]

no.. our camera was a $60,000 high speed camera with a real sensor that could shoot 5000fps, not just 500fps....but was an industrial camera like the SI and had the same workflow and a similar design.

Thanks for liking my footage though.. it was alot fun making it.