RED camera ( a message from the founder )

[Jannard]

Thanks Jarred for helping to legitimize our effort by giving us a space on your board. We really appreciate it.

We are giving our best effort to deliver the RED camera as shown on the www.red.com website sometime late in 2006. BTW, we also recognize that the site is in a remedial stage and will up the quality of the site as our project progresses.

There are several reasons we want to do this project. There is a group of us that feels the camera we really want just isn't available commercially and we don't see it on the horizon. We are shooters, collectors and camera fanatics. We own and use Arri 35mm, S16mm, Aaton S16mm film gear as well as a Sony HDCAM and Panasonic Varicam. Additionally, we have a Sony FX-1, Z-1, Panasonic DVX100a, and several DV camcorders. We have several FCP stations and a Smoke HD system. So we feel some familiarity/expertise with the space.

We long for 35mm DOF in the digital world. We want flexibility and versatility. We want a small package that can act big. We want the ability to record UHD for the future and 1080P 60 fps for use right now. We want to know that we can record to just about any media. And use the lenses we have. Plus design some new ones we wish were being built but aren't. This is a tall order, but we are up for the opportunity to make a difference in this market.

We have the financial resources and project resources for this project that include a great design department, 3D modeling capability (for 15 years), liquid laser prototyping equipment, a full testing lab, optical and electronic engineers, 5 axis mills, molding machines, a titanium casting plant (where Romeos, Juliets, Pennys are made), electron beam gun vapor deposition equipment (same as Canon, Nikon, etc.) and a strong will.

We have a lot of ideas we believe would take the RED camera to new levels. Several industry consultants have come onboard to help with the program and we have been watching these boards and listening for some time to what shooters really want. I am convinced we are not alone in our desire for a new "dream camera".

Our only agenda is to build a great camera at a price that will bring a smile to all who shoot high end video and film. We are making this camera "future capable" as well as usable in the present.

Expect us to present a machined or liquid laser NON- working prototype at NAB 2006, assuming we can find some space. But we'll be standing in the parking lot if we have to.

I'll try to address concerns from the group as time goes on, but two things that won't be discussed in detail are the sensor (for competitive reasons) and pricing. We haven't locked down a price... it is way too early. We do have agressive goals to make customers happy. Our intentions are good.

I promise to keep my eye on this board and contribute when I can. I don't mind taking a poke from the skeptics as long as I get to poke back. All in good fun.

Thanks again for the forum.

Jim Jannard
www.red.com
4k@red.com

[Luis Caffesse]

Welcome aboard Jim!
Looking forward to hearing more about you and the RED camera in the future.

(I see you capitalized NON working prototype this time...good move)
:thumbsup:


One thing I'd be interested in hearing more about would be the dynamic range you're hoping to get on the RED.
There is a lot being said about the resolution and pixel count, and the fact that you'll be using a 35mm sized sensor, but not much comment so far on lattitude. Resolution at 1080P isn't really bad, and DOF issues have workarounds, but I really think that lattitude is the one aspect of video that really limits us. I realize it's still very early in the game...but any thoughts?


PS.
By the way, I like the custom color on this forum.
Smooth move Jarred.

[Jarred Land]

Yes Welcome Jim.. everyone here is very excited on the development of the RED system, great to have you onboard.

[Policar]

Awesome, awesome, awesome. I really hope you guys succeed. Not just for your sake, but for ours, and for the sake of the industry in general. When affordable 16mm took off, it really sparked the industry by allowing directors to get creative with low budget shorts and even allow for documentaries and low budget features to be made much more easily. It did a lot for film art and the industry.

The prospect of an affordable (even if only via rental) 4k 35mm camera could do more than that. Since everyone's shooting with digital intermediates anyhow, this would allow filmmakers from very serious hobbiests to industry pros working outside the studio system (and even within it) to experiment further and make better movies for less money. The industry is hurting from video games and HDTV already. This is the kind of thing it really needs to give it a jump start where procucers can't provide one: in the independent segment. (And surely beyond--I'm sure the Viper and Genesis would be huge now if they weren't so darned expensive to only be useable on the likes of Superman.)

Anyhow, if you can keep it cheap enough to rent (under 20 grand), this thing will be huge. If you can make it cheap enough to buy (under 10 grand), it will be revolutionary. Best of luck.

One thing: instead of a gain switch, one of those "ISO" adjustment thingies (like on a digital SLR) would be wonderful. The more this thing is like a film camera (without the obvious disadvantages inherent to one) the faster it will replace them. Light meters are in many ways preferable to monitoring via lcd screens anyhow.

Also, if digital 3D takes off (as I expect it will) digital cameras will probably receive a boost from that, since the first big 3D features will be digitally shot and projected. (Just ask James Cameron.)

[David Jimerson]

Could be history in the making.

[Jannard]

Target dynamic range is 66db (or 12 bit). Remember, spec can change at any moment. Not trying to be cute here, just want to make sure that everyone understands that we have lots of work to do and many surprises to overcome. The goal is very agressive. But we are not going to Mars with this project.

Jim

[Luis Caffesse]

we are not going to Mars with this project.


12bit sounds fantastic.

You know, I was a supporter of this project the day I heard about it, and even then I'm realizing I underestimated your intentions.
I thought you were shooting for the moon.

Definitely not going to hold your feet to the fire on any of these specs.
I think we all understand how early on in the process you are, and how far you have to go.

I appreciate your openess this early on in your development.
Best of luck to you.

[Filmjunkie677]

Welcome aboard. Thanks for the wonderful info!

[MattinSTL]

This is so cool... thanks for your constant innovation Jarred. There is a never ending supply of intelligent and interesting stuff happening here.

Love the RED formatting for the special occasion. Sharp.

Welcome aboard Jim and thanks for sharing.

[Jarred Land]

Thanks for the kind words. Im very excited about this camera, and I thought that it was very worthy of its own style :)

[SalaTar]

So red is a real concept with financial backing?

[SalaTar]

BTW if so what will be estimated cost of said system(forward looking statments will be accepted)

[TC]

From looking at those specs, this is absolute insanity. I wish you the best of luck in the months that follow.

... I call beta testing!!!!

[Jarred Land]

Well we do know it has the backing. Jim Jannard is the founder of Red, and also the founder of Oakley. The have a tremendous amount of capital obviously, and more importantly Oakley engineers, which have been working on optics since some of you weren't even born.

Concept is definately real, and the backing is real. Which is why I am obviously completely behind the camera, and Jim.

and no he didnt pay me to say that :)

[Luis Caffesse]

BTW if so what will be estimated cost of said system(forward looking statments will be accepted)

Jim mentioned elsewhere that they are not ready to release a price range yet because he doesn't want to give a number before they're ready and before they know they can stick to that range. I'm sure they have a number they're aiming for, but it's still to early in the process I assume to come up with a realistic price point that they can confidently stick to.

[Jarred Land]

yes indeed.. im pretty sure they have a target, but its pretty much impossible to get any idea of a pricepoint till they at least make the prototype.

Remember, we are very early in the game here, I mean we still have 5 months before we get to see what it could even look like.

[SalaTar]

"forward looking statments " are a good way for CEO's to get what they think out , without actually saying anything viable..lol

[Jarred Land]

"forward looking statments " are a good way for CEO's to get what they think out , without actually saying anything viable..lol

yes in a perfect world people would let CEO's off the hook with these statements, but as you can see even here in the past, people hang onto them and whine about those comments over, and over, and over again.

[Neil Rowe]

nice! glad to see someone pushing the envelope yet again. welcome aboard and best of luck in building the new unit!

[mr._guiyotinne]

Not to kill anyone´s hopes, but we are speaking about a big machine here. It will be the greatest move in the camera and video world since, well, perhaps DV and will make lot of us think about selling the car, beg and ask for a mortgage to get it.

Maybe he intends to give us a not so beefed version, or just make it affordable and a great piece of renting equipment; but it doesn´t look like a competitor for the HVX or XL-H1 level. More like Varicam and Cinealta.

Anyway, the revolution will be as far as i imagine, seeing the big toys from today coming down to prices like HVX and shake all the big companies to LISTEN more to the people that matters... Us. In places like DVXuser, our second home.

IMHO what Jim has discovered is the ultimate way to move the industry. Ok, he´s following the HVX hype, but this is Panasonic´s camera and they are giving us most of what we want comparing it with the rest of this industry leaders. But that´s the problem, Pana, as beloved as it is, (thanks in part to the toys that they give and in other BIG part to JAN) it´s still one of those companies who has market to protect and shares to move up. RED doesn´t have to protect anything and they can enter as big as they want. And it looks like they want to do it as big as HELL.


Our only agenda is to build a great camera at a price that will bring a smile to all who shoot high end video and film. We are making this camera "future capable" as well as usable in the present.

Jim, bienvenido al ruedo. I hope we can take you out of it a hombros y por la puerta grande.

[Jack_Felis]

This camera system probably won't end up in a lot of people's hands unless they (RED) want a price war to break out, which is good for buyers in the end as technology is taken up a notch but it gets other companies off their butts and flustered. For $10k, I'd go for this camera, I might even go for $20k if it delivers everything it's currently estimated to offer right now, but any pricing less is just gravy.

It's smart that they're not releasing a price as that has backfired for quite a few companies in a way. 35mm projects such as the G35 have lost a little to competition because of pre-announcing their prices and when the real price comes around, people based on the "I may as well just go with *BLANK* instead!" go with the competition. Though this is a small number and it doesn't hurt specifically the G35 sales at all, it is just an example.

When I attend NAB 2006, Jim, I hope to see this camera prototype and hear the speech that goes along with it. Good luck!

[Shaw]

Indeed. I mean, I would not be surprised if the imager itself cost 20K at least. I mean, look at all the websites for companies that make these chips. NO one has a publically available 4K chip that can run at 60fps. NO ONE. It has to be a custom piece that will cost a whole hell of a lot.

Makes me seriously think about a career change so I can make more money...

[Jannard]

I have lots of Czech friends... could use a Slovakian supporter. Thanks.

As to the skeptics...

When we announced our intentions to make a sunglass in 1984, the Vuarnet National Sales Manager publically stated that we were a joke and had no business getting in a market we knew nothing about. Three years later we passed them in sales. Eight years after that, we passed RayBan in sales. I can think of nothing that ever motivated me more than that guy's comment... not sure where he is now. I appreciate the skepticism. It drives us. I know exactly what we are up against. The only way to enter a market is with a better product. That is exactly what we intend to do. We will get shot at, taken lightly and disrespected along the way. But we have put on our helmets and are ready to enter the game. Somebody's got to kill us to get us to quit.

[Luis Caffesse]

Elsewhere someone said similar things to what are being said here...about how a camera like this would cost $250K, so there is no reason to get excited, etc.
I hope Jim doesn't mind me quoting his answer here - but his response was:

"The idea is that this camera will put a smile on everyone's face... $250,000 would not make me smile if I was the buyer."

I think it seems clear that he hopes to make this camera accessible to people who are currently shooting at 'our' level. If not, why would he be seeking input from people here and over at DVinfo? I don't recall seeing the developers of the Viper or the Genesis asking for our input.
And why would they? The people here are not their target market.

I wouldn't worry about the price right now. As soon as they feel confident about a price range they can deliver I'm sure they'll announce it.
Until then let's just see what unfolds... and cheer RED on in the meanwhile.

[Shaw]

Well even half of 250K is a ways away from our level =D. I can possibly see somewhere around the varicam price range though. In any case, I wish you the best of luck Jim. I'm ecstatic about this and will be watching closely. This is precisely what the industry needs.

[Jarred Land]

good point Luis. I expect pricing to be way less then $250k, I dare even guess to be affordable to some of us here as well. I am pretty sure its not gonna be $5k though, I can bet my poodle on that one, you just cant do it (yet) with the cost of the parts needed for this kinda camera. Im crossing my fingers for a price i just can't refuse.

The fact that a guy (Jim) that has more money then probaly all of us combined and is way up high on the Forbes list, is hanging out here talking to us at DVXuser probally as mentioned means there is a reason he is talking to us.. and most of us arn't in the market for a $200,000 camera, even a $100,000 camera. But who knows.

And thanks Jim for your little word of wisdom.. I like the fact that your an "underdog" but with big guns... should mix things up a little.

[Policar]

The issue, of course, is lens prices: good PL mount lenses are approximately a gajillion dollars. (Well, ten or twenty thousand for a useable--not even good but just useable--set.)

So the camera cannot be "prosumer" cheap. It can't because it requires lenses which aren't "prosumer" cheap so the cost of the whole set up will be pricey one way or the other. Beyond this, Oakleys (which are nice, I owned a pair until it got stolen) aren't exactly cheap themselves. I don't think Jim is going to cut corners and I don't think we're going to get a dirt cheap camera, as everyone I'm sure is hoping. I would be VERY surprised by anything under $15,000. But that's still way less than a tenth the cost of the competition, which offers less. So even at $100,000 this would be an amazing camera. Of course, it would also have a very limited market at that price, and a limited market means high margins are required. To make money, you need a product with a high price (cinealta) or a large market (dvx). An "inbetween" product has a tough time. So Jim has to either make this thing dirt cheap (under twenty grand) or super expensive (over $100,000) and I'm sincerely hoping for dirt cheap. That way, every rental house can buy a couple, as can every production house.

I don't see this being a "prosumer" or "hobbyist" product. I mean, with the cost of lenses, follow focus, etc. and the size of a crew needed to shoot with a 35mm sensor, there just ISN'T the market.

But as direct competition with super 16 (and ultimately likely a FAR better product) I can see this being totally revolutionary. Without the cost of film stock as an issue, I'd easily pay $1000-$2000 a week to rent something like this and there are others who would pay far more. Obviously, I'm excited and really hope to rent one some day.

By the way, super 35 sized CMOS chips that shoot 3fps at 9mp cost about 90 dollars in bulk. The chips aren't that expensive (though ones that do 60fps would obviously cost far more.)

[SalaTar]

Ohh Im thinking red will be on par with Thompson/Grass Valley in price...if Thompson just dont buy them outright with todays market

[Luis Caffesse]

Ohh Im thinking red will be on par with Thompson/Grass Valley in price...if Thompson just dont buy them outright with todays market

From what has been said so far I for one will be shocked it they are at Viper prices.
Personally, I expect it to be much much much lower.

The Viper is a rental camera.
Red doesn't seem to be interested in making a camera for rental houses alone.

And given Jim's attitude, and his history, I don't think he's going to be interested in selling the company anytime soon.

Either way, price speculation is a moot point at this stage.
Why not discuss what we'd like to see, as opposed to what we'd like to pay?

[SalaTar]

I'll gladly eat my words...btw

[Jarred Land]

Good points Policar.. I guess we need to look at what level of competition it has.. obviously, with the current specs the camera beats pretty much everything out there.. everything. Considering out there goes up to $250,000... for this camera to come in at under $100,000 would be quite a breakthrough. But maybe there will be lower versions at lower prices, we will need to wait and see.

I guess when that price point is announced, things get really hot, or things get really cold, depending on how fat your wallet is.

[Jarred Land]

I'll gladly eat my words...btw

one reason that I changed the color of this special Red section to the same color as Ketchup. I think alot of us are in for a meal and a half :)

[mr._guiyotinne]

Well, i was thinking That they could offer a 1080P (and all the way down), 4:2:2, RED codec or JPEG2000 and variable framerates as well as one of their fixed lenses (a good one) Like a low end series for prosumer people and events videographers... Kinda like it. And foget about tape. RAID all the way.

The best thing. Low end series...

Just imagine a wedding with this. We would get the first dance in the bride´s next wedding.

Wouldn´t be nice? Anyway i´m starting to save money and planning a way to get the big one.

[SalaTar]

What Id like to see.
Moore's Law, define a scalable codec for it that runs the OS gambit.
Better yet open source it.

Make an editor, that woks..
Add a truly capable composite app that works with editor...

dreams oh dreams

[Policar]

a low end series for prosumer people and events videographers...

And then you'd need your "event focus puller." You really can't shoot 35mm sensor size without a crew of 2-3 just to man the camera.

And considering a "cheap" variable prime (T2.2) retails for $30,00 and that you'd need all three of them to cover the dvx's zoom range as well as a 4k monitor to pull focus and check color (or at the very least a 1080p dell monitor, which is cheap but not portable), you begin to see the problems you run into.

A super 16 style camera that takes c-mount lenses, shoots 1080p, and sells for $10,000 would be un-frickin-believable, though and practical for those purposes. (But let's be honest--you cannot shoot a wedding with a 35mm sized chip, at least not without a crew as large as you'd have for a high-budget documentary.)

[Jarred Land]

Well Policar.. you can buy PL mount primes off Ebay for less than $2k. Still hella expensive for some, but not quite $30,000.

And whats with the wedding stuff lol? Im not Red, but if I was them I wouldnt try to break into the $5k camera territory right now.. We have the HVX, and enough others to keep people happy in that range.

[Policar]

True, but I was saying that "one lens" being bundled with the camera would not be realistic. You either need a few expensive primes, or one ultra expensive zoom.

And I agree about the wedding stuff. That was my point.

[Jarred Land]

True Policar.. I think a good route for most (if we end up being able to afford it) is to get the camera and a zoom.. then slowly track down some nice primes, like some used Cooke S4's if the Red's end up being too pricey.

I love those Cookes, but i cant wait to see the Iridium Reds. I have a feeling the glass may be the easiest part for Red to get right... considering who they are.

[mr._guiyotinne]

I dind´t spoke about the size of sensor.

I understand the problematics of a 35mm size. But that´s the High end model. With a good fixed (zoom) lens(Policar, sorry about using fixed. I wanted to say stuck to the camera´s body... I create stories, what kills me is the paper work... and expresing myself in other language as good as i can) and the better light management would make a very nice events and B camera. 2/3. The point was the sarcasm of calling a camera like this low end. :thumbsup:

But that´s another sensor and it kills the basic idea and target market of filmakers. But "events" is another group, they need help too (we are all artists) and a lot of us have been there or still lives with it to get the bread. :undecided

EDITED: I write too slow...

[Graeme_Nattress]

A large sensor should mean for easier lens manufacture though - more glass, but it doesn't need to be anywhere near as sharp. Because cinema lenses are not consumer items produced in large numbers, they're ultra expensive for what they are. I see no reason why Red can't make an affordable zoom and prime for the Red camera, just as you can get very affordable high quality primes and zooms for the even larger chips of 35mm DSLR's. An EOS or Nikon mount would a very cool feature...

Critical focus issues can be got around in a number of ways though - you can shrink the 4k image down to HD size, making it sharper, or centre crop on the sensor, increasing DOF. You see, if you start with a 4k sensor, you're scalable right from movie production right down to wedding video, if you want. It's a neat concept.

Graeme

[skipmaroogans]

I would just like to thank jim for this project. It can bring nothing but good to film makers and film afficianados everywhere. We need more people that are willing to shake up the market and bring new ideas to the table, and the fact that someone like jim is putting his financial backing as well as his reputation behind this concept is the most important part of this.

Thanks again. I am now extremely excited about this as a possible shooting format for a feature down the line that I would love to shoot on 35mm, but seeing as it is an Indie arthouse film, a multimillion dollar budget would be out of the question. The red cam would be the perfect alternative for Independant filmmakers, giving us the oppurtunity to shoot gorgeous 35mm quality features under multi-million dollar budgets, and outside the studio system. Assuming the image quality is the same as 35mm, solely the difference in cost for not having to process the film would make the Red Camera worth renting for a feature over 35mm!! I am just so freakin excited!!! I patiently await the day I can afford a red cam for my Prod. Company, or even just rent one to shoot features on!

Logan Tallman
DeathGrip Productions

[Mr. Blonde]

I'd honestly be willing to spend in the range of $40,000 RIGHT NOW if there were a camera with these specs. Wish you the best Jim.

[Gibby]

This morning on the Red camera thread on DV Info Net I posted this summary of my feelings about Jim Jannard and the Red camera:

In the mid-90's the introduction of affordable, small form factor camcorders (DV, DVCAM, DVCPro formats), and cost-effective NLE systems, combined to thoroughly revolutionize and democratize the television and video production industry. The "gatekeepers" (programming executives) at networks had to change their thinking and acceptance criteria, progressive producers adopted the technology, and the industry polarized into two distinct pods: large networks and small boutique production houses that use 1099 Misc. freelancers - very little "middle class". Bottom line: affordable tools placed in the hands of seasoned pros and newcomers alike radically altered the dynamic and status quo of the television and video production industry.

Then:

The introduction of affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.) signaled the first assault on the sacred sanctuary of filmmaking. Media convergence was placed into overdrive! Traditional filmmakers were forced to learn video technology in order to compete on increasingly limited budgets with a ravenous horde of indie filmmakers armed with 24p video camcorders and desktop NLE's that enabled a "film look" using electronic technology rather than a manual/celluloid paradigm. Film crews learned about CCD's, electronic menus, new posting technology, etc., while TV/video crews learned about using prime lenses, depth of field, and editing 24p. Affordable 24p video technology had effectively converged the film and video camps into one large tent - video electronics, mated with film lenses and techniques. Then media convergence jumped into warp drive: George Lucas shoots "Star Wars" with a convergence camera (F950), Walter Murch edits "Cold Mountain" using Final Cut Pro, Steven Soderburgh shoots "Full Frontal" in DV, and a myriad of other examples of convergent projects. Simultaneously, scores of indie "films" (though no film was ever used in the workflow) were created by DVX-armed "filmmakers", and were flooding indie film festivals worldwide. The floodgates were open and the flow was irreversible...

Fast forward to 2003-2005. New technology, affordable chips, and increased storage possibilities spark a new generation of techno-geeks to attempt to create relatively affordable digital cinema cameras to address the creative desires of hungry indie filmmakers, wannabe HDTV producers, and disassociated film industry crews. The large equipment manufacturers struggle to protect their "upper end" lines from the techno-onslaught, while broadcasters and few large production houses that are left bury their heads in the sand in an ostrich act justified by "protecting their legacy investments". The well-intentioned indie camera manufacturers are hamstrung by fiscal shortfalls and a resultant lack of access to materials and R&D.

Enter the RED camera. Charles Darwin was right in many respects. Humankind evolves - and so does their tools. It doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to recognize that the evolution of media convergence of the film and video industries has opened the barn doors to the next incarnation of digital cinema cameras. Is there an industry need for an affordable 4k/2540p/1080p/720p/480p "Swiss Army Knife" of a digital cinema/HDTV camera? Yes! Will the traditional large equipment manufacturers produce such a camera, and in the process cripple their higher end offerings? No! So- there's a huge demand for a product like that, and zero supply of such. Along comes Jim Jannard and RED. They recognize the demand, see that nobody will or can fulfill fill the product need, assess their possibilities to create a product to fill the need, decide that they can, start R&D, gather together some of the best engineers, programmers, shooters, and marketers they can find, and here comes the RED camera!

Post script: If the RED camera meets its specs, is affordable, and is marketed effectively, it has the potential to revolutionize the convergent film/video industry in the same way that the cost-effective DV/DVCAM/DVCPro cameras and desktop NLE's introduced in the mid-'90's, and affordable 24p (DVX100, etc.), enabled massive convergence of film and video. Now that film crews and TV/video crews largely and progressively use the same technology, the time is right for such a tool as the RED camera. Earlier adopters of progressive technology greatly enhance their creative and fiscal competitiveness in the marketplace. Slow adopters and the "I'm not changing, I've always done it this way" resisters have effective programmed themselves for professional extinction - and they don't even realize it. Buying a new paintbrush doesn't automatically make you Picasso, but if you have the talent and experience to bring to that new brush, great results are inevitable. If the other artists in your competitive sphere have equal experience and talent, but they are using outdated, worn, expensive brushes, their paintings simply have a lesser chance of competing in price and quality against the others. As artists we all want to create the masterpieces we've dreamed of. Artistry is a right brain function. Planning and budgeting are left brain functions. The stark reality is that without going left brained enough to face the fiscal realities of the evolving film/video marketplace, the majority of artists will sadly never realize their dream productions. It's time for a left brained reality check folks. If the RED camera meets it's specs, is affordable, and is marketed correctly, you've probably then found the convergent paint brush that will take you to the next level, enable you to realize your creative dreams, and allow you to compete and financially survive in an increasingly competitive media marketplace.

In professional Darwinian terms, what's it going to be for you - evolution or extinction?

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[Flintstone]

That Mysterium sensor is what I'd like to know more about. But of course, we won't know until the camera is out. That, and storage for Red. I can just imagine the gargantuan storage requirements, as well the speed the data is going to crash down at to those poor unsuspecting mechanical disks!

4K @ 12 bit... Ouch! I mean OUCH!!! :shocked:

So, in order to get as much latitude as possible, will this Mysterium sensor use spacial shifting (pixel shift)? :evil:

[skipmaroogans]

thats great gibby I feel the same way. Im all for the RED CAMERA evolution/revolution. I am just so excited at the possibility of 35mm quality for those that wish to work outside the studio system.

Logan Tallman
DeathGrip Productions

[Shaw]

I suspect it will have a single sensor so no spatial offset will be possible.

[Gibby]

The fact that a guy (Jim) that has more money then probaly all of us combined and is way up high on the Forbes list, is hanging out here talking to us at DVXuser probally as mentioned means there is a reason he is talking to us.. and most of us arn't in the market for a $200,000 camera, even a $100,000 camera. But who knows.

And thanks Jim for your little word of wisdom.. I like the fact that your an "underdog" but with big guns... should mix things up a little.

Once you know Jim Jannard better you won't be surprised that he's here hanging out with us "common folk". Jim Jannard has always kept his finger directly on the pulse of the "street vibe". Picture a billionaire who wears T-shirts, Aloha shirts, tennies, and if he walked by you on the street you'd never even know he was rich and famous! I've known Jim for a long time. We both have deep roots in the action sports industry, Jim with Oakley and me with television, video, and films for that industry. I've worked on tons of events and series that were sponsored by Oakley. Oakley mirrors the personality of Jim Jannard. Oakley is enormous now, but still considered "core" by the finicky youth of the action sports world. Why? Because Oakley has consistently listened to their consumers desires, trends, needs, gripes, and input. Oakley never followed trends - they invented trends! Jim knows that the success of Oakley was built upon those simple principles, and he also knows that the success of the Red camera will hinge upon those exact same critical elements - listening to grassroots feedback, gripes, trends, needs, and input from the convergent media production industry. By stepping up to join DVX User, DV Info Net and other boards, and by hiring a diverse array of industry professionals Jannard/Red have already poured a solid foundation for success. Don't think that at some point they will quit seeking input. They haven't with Oakley, and they won't with Red. In my opinion, it is unbelievably progressive management by a cutting-edge CEO who has nothing to prove.

When was the last time a billionaire was a member of a "prosumer" media tech board and made posts. Never. Do any of the CEO's of other giant media equipment hang out here and contribute? No. The more you get to know Jim Jannard, the less you'll be surprised to see him occasionally hang out here. I believe he's been reading DVX User, DV Info Net, and other media tech boards for several years now. Why? To get a feel for "prosumer" concerns, and to learn how to maximize technology. Oakley is big - but Jim has never forgotten his smaller roots and humble beginning. What's a breath of fresh air...

I fully expect Jannard/RED to have enormous success with the RED camera. It’s about time we had another major player in the Film/TV camera industry, don’t you think?

Go get ‘em Jim!

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[redindian]

at least he should say if the camera is above or below $25K...

so that we know if we can afford to dream or not..

[Anhar Miah]

Oh I so Hope this is not Vapourware, well First Chris Hurd over at Dvinfo, now Jarred.

If it was anyone else other the Chris and Jarred I would have to look at them funny and ask them what they are smoking.

Anyway the sensor is what I want to know about, I know that the DRAKE camera was in the process of making DRAKE2? which was suposed to have full 35mm CMOS chips, I wonder if this is somehow related.

Anhar

[Jarred Land]

Well spoken Gibby. I know my brief conversations with Jim where very open and very casual, but still very professional, and I felt very comfortable talking to him. As some of you know I wear T-shirts and flip-flops 364 days a year, so i appreaciate the laid back approach.

I think he fits in pretty well here, and I look forward to what comes out of that camp.

Thank you as well Gibby.. as usual your very well spoken, and I can see why Oakley has chosen to work with you over the years.

[Sumfun]

This sounds like a great camera. I hope Red is also thinking about the whole post production flow and is working with the NLE vendors to support the UHD format. And I hope we have good storage solutions by the time the camera comes out.

But I can't help but think that we're obsessing too much on the tool and not enough on other essential things such as a good story, etc. Moviemaking is a craft, and the camera is just one of the tools you use. Even if everybody had free 35mm equipment today, we won't all make masterpieces. Just look at what's in the theatres now.

[John_Moore]

Wow, Gibby, your post was inspirational!

Well, I wonder just how many private messages Mr. Jannard has recieved since signing up, requesting funding for their film projects?

Oh, I only wish. Too bad there's not too much value placed on aspiring teenagers in Sticksville, Texas. Though, if you think about it, we will probably be the market for RED's cameras in about eight years, so you never know just how much value we hold.

Like Gibby pointed out, Mr. Jannard listens to the 'street vibe'. Well, I'm not on the streets, but I'm going to be part of the vibe. Part of the pulse.

Looking forward to seeing more, and Good Luck Mr. Jannard!'

~ John.

[Frame]

EOS or Nikon mount would a very cool feature...

Great idea, Graeme!
The RED could aim for two markets with those features:
A "consumer" version which has features like an EOS or Nikon mount and a Pro version, which is designed for the peripherals of an Arriflex or Panavision.

[235 Studios]

I'm looking forward to seeing this project develop, and as stated by others I'd be surprised to see this priced in the same range as the HVX- although I think they would take over the market if they did. I can't see it being profitable for them to deliver so much for so little. While 15 - 20k for a camera would be a stretch for me, I would definately consider it at that price point. Over that and I would be looking at renting ....

So can anyone have NAB 2006 moved up? I don't want to wait to hear more about this camera!

[J.R. Hudson]

This is epic; Jarred you rock.

Alright RED; you have my interest

[hawaj]

Wow this forum is big surprise for me now :shocked: :thumbsup:
I spent last week playing with new Quantel machine and couldnt keep in touch with this "red thing"
and now this!
history in a making
good luck :beer:

[Jarred Land]

i was wondering when you would show up John :)

good stuff hey?

[J.R. Hudson]

This is great; the colors, the design, the logo up top....

Sweeet.

This camera may excite me.

[MarcusX]

I don't know a lot about CMOS or CCD manufacturing, but would it be very expensive/difficult to implement higher framerates above 60 fps?

Add extreme slow-motion to the featurelist and we may see many 35mm film cameras on ebay soon :)

[DanielG]

Foveon is a company started by Carver Mead. The core of the company is the X3 CMOS sensor which uses three layers of sensors. See http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=67 for more info.

The chip is available in the Polaroid X530 camera.

There are some examples of pictures taken with Foveon chipped cameras at http://www.flickr.com/groups/foveon/ and I've seen a lot of other work by googling for it.

There was another company in SoCal that did CMOS sensors that were integrated into the backend processor. I can't remember them. Anyone?

[Gibby]

...I wear T-shirts and flip-flops 364 days a year, so i appreaciate the laid back approach.

Right on! Same here. My wife has always wondered why I NEED 150+ T-shirts, 6+ pairs of flip-flops, and so many surfboards, skateboards, snowboards, mountain bikes, kayaks, etc. The solution was to make sure that her and the kids have their own copies of all those so that when I have work breaks we can all launch out to the beach, mountains or desert for some fun! Oh, and I always take a camera along in case the lighting and scenery are right for shooting some more stock footage (the HVX and my Canon D20 will both fit in a nice small backpack).

What's this got to do with the Jim Jannard and the RED camera? People get pre-conceived notions about how executives look, act, and dress. Somehow they view achievers as wearing certain clothes and having a "Madison Avenue" attitude. Make no mistakes - Jim Jannard is professional through and through, but he has a lot of fun along the way and has never sacrificed his personality and lifestyle for what other people feel he should be. In my experience he would much rather have someone be straight up honest with their opinion than to beat around the bush and be patronizing.

You're lucky you live in the banana belt of Canada (Vancouver), if you wear flip-flops and T's 364 days a year! I'm curious, what's the big occasion that one day a year when you don't wear flip-flops and a T?

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
New member of the Board of Directors,
San Luis Obispo International Film Festival
www.slofilmfest.org

[Jarred Land]

You're lucky you live in the banana belt of Canada (Vancouver), if you wear flip-flops and T's 364 days a year! I'm curious, what's the big occasion that one day a year when you don't wear flip-flops and a T?

it snows :)


Im actually in California for most of the year, but im still battling the cold with em flippers up here right now.

[Jarred Land]

wells dude you been funny the last couple days.. its like you post then it vanishes. heh heh heh. Think thats three times now in the last 24 hours.

[Isaac_Brody]

This is great news. Always a good thing when another option emerges to stir up the pot. Can't wait for more details. :)

[mcshyd]

Jim, you're the man. I am too excited to type.

[spencer]

As someone who knows little about cameras, even I am fairly excited by reading the preliminary specs. WOO HOO!

My only reservation is that I'll probably never ever be able to afford it. But a man can dream! hahah.

[CallaghanFilms]

Red Camera, eh? Intriguing...quite intriguing.

OK your on to me, I really wanted to see my avatar and banner against this contradistinctive color scheme.

But seriously though, you have my interest.:thumbsup:

[Jim Arthurs]

When I first heard about this venture several weeks ago I thought it was a joke. The hype sounded too good to be true.

The specs and descriptions were very close to what I would doodle out on paper now and then when day-dreaming of an ideal camera. Last year I was hell-bent on a do-it-yourself camera based on whatever machine vision box would work, then the Z1 popped up, ready made, pre-engineered, and I bought in.

Now, I'm ready for the HVX because it's the better product. I can't wait to see what develops out of this new venture, and what the landscape might look like one year from now....

...and I can't think of a better home for discussion than the one Jarred has put together.

Jim Arthurs

[Steve Shovlar]

Funny how this has sprung up in record time. Only one week ago the whole RED thing was being called a hoax when I posted the link to the RED site. Now we have the billionaire owner of Oakley posting on here.

So Mr Jennard, I have a pair of Oakleys and my 18 month old daughter got hold of them last week and scratched the plastic lens. How about sending me a new pair in the post? ;)

Seriously, I loved your post about being rediculed by a competitor, and turning over more than them three years later. Must have been extremely exciting times. and got my adrenalin rushing just reading that.

So you do have the capabilties to get this camera off the ground and into the hands of people who have the ability to use it to its full potential. Hopefully it will be priced to make a big impression from the word go. Enough for Panasonic, Sony et al to stand up and take notice.

Undercut their market and let battle commence!

[evinsky]

It always amazes me when a person with vision brushes away the critics and embarks on what is a very difficult but inspiring endeavor. Even if it never makes it past the mockup I admire Red for trying. And sincerely hope they succeed so I can use this dream machine.

[Bart Walczak]

It's just amazing. Keep up, Mr. Jannard! :thumbsup:

In such a camera I would welcome some focusing assistance like peaking.

I wonder what kind of monitor I will need to edit 4K in 100% :laugh: Maybe RED would be interested in supplying those too? :engel017:


Best regards
Bart Walczak

[Luis Caffesse]

It always amazes me when a person with vision brushes away the critics and embarks on what is a very difficult but inspiring endevor

Me too, it's inspiring.
This is like Juan with the Andromeda... except with millions of dollars worth of resources.
:thumbsup:

As John said, bring it on!

[Mr. Blonde]

Jim Jannard is the Howard Hughes of digital cinema!

[Mr. Blonde]

I'm already seeing the sales pitch for this cam......The camera with a 4k image, at less than a 100k price tag, revolutionary.

[Tzedekh]

I am pretty sure its not gonna be $5k though, I can bet my poodle on that one, you just cant do it (yet) with the cost of the parts needed for this kinda camera. Of course you can't do it for $5,000 yet, but doesn't it take someone like Jim Jannard -- who has the vision and clout -- to make it happen? I mean, Sony, Panavision, Panasonic, Grass Valley, and Arriflex all have reasons not to make such a cheap product (it would undermine the high-end market). Jannard has no such baggage, and he can deal at the scale to make a relatively cheap UHD camera possible.

[HenryK]

I don't know a lot about CMOS or CCD manufacturing, but would it be very expensive/difficult to implement higher framerates above 60 fps?

Add extreme slow-motion to the featurelist and we may see many 35mm film cameras on ebay soon :)

Well, theoretically if this CMOS can produce 60fps at 4K resolution you should be able to get much higher frame rates at lower resolutions. Are we talking 1080p90 or 720p120? Maybe higher? Jim?

[HenryK]

I'm already seeing the sales pitch for this cam......The camera with a 4k image, at less than a 100k price tag, revolutionary.

Or, "This camera will put you in the RED" Hopefully not. :)

[J.R. Hudson]

The tech talk will kill me; but I just want a camera that will piss Hollywood off.

[Jarred Land]

Hey Henry.. you are very accurate in your expectations of higher frame rates at lower resolutions, and the Hi-speed cameras we have been testing are an exact replication of that point. We have 2k HD cameras that can shoot at 1000fps.. when we kick it down to half rez we can hit 5000fps. So if you start with a 4k image delivering 60fps, dropping down to 720p should be able to induce a 120 frame rate without any hesitation. Honestly, past that really is just gravy, as you would hardly ever go past that frame rate.

[fomoDVXpal]

Target dynamic range is 66db (or 12 bit). Remember, spec can change at any moment. Not trying to be cute here, just want to make sure that everyone understands that we have lots of work to do and many surprises to overcome. The goal is very agressive. But we are not going to Mars with this project.

Jim


I'm not a tech head but that sounds like bit depth to me (which at 12 bits is really nice). However what does that equate to in actual f-stops worth of dynamic range?

For instance to emulate film dynamic range you may need to clock 12 or 13 f-stops. Maybe more.

[Emanuel]

Two simple questions:

1) When will it be available to deliver?

I don't ask for months or quarters term or even semesters but which year?

2) What price range?

By now, that's all! Thanks.

[John C Lyons]

Welcome to the board Mr. Jannard and I wish you the best on this project. You have a LOT of people pulling for you!

[skettalee]

What market are you guys going at with this? Please say the underground folks here with less than 10,000 in their pockets!

[Jay Rodriguez]

I'm glad to see you here Jannard. I'm always intersted in the underdog, especially one who has proven himself in another arena!

Keep us informed, you have a strong community here.

[Jay Rodriguez]

What market are you guys going at with this? Please say the underground folks here with less than 10,000 in their pockets!

I'll echo that as well!!!! Please say the underground folks here with less than 10,000 in their pockets!!!!!!!!!!!! :beer:

[HenryK]

I'll echo that as well!!!! Please say the underground folks here with less than 10,000 in their pockets!!!!!!!!!!!! :beer:

Honestly, I think Indie filmmakers who are ready to shoot a feature in 4K with the RED camera should be ready to spend at least $25K. Take a look at the specs, this blows away HDCam! It would be $200K worth of technology for 1/10th of the cost!!!

The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't want RED to compromise quality in the interest of making this thing cheap. As far as I'm concerned, this camera under $10K would be cheap. We need something that will last, something we will keep for many years. Considering you wont buy another camera for ten years, $25K isn't much at all. Also, if it's $10K, serious filmmakers aren't going to take it seriously and if they do take it seriously then we're all shooting with the same camera!

Make this thing good, make it solid, make it so it will last and make it so you can afford it and remain in business. As far as I'm concerned, if you deliver on the RED promiss I will never buy another brand and you will have a customer for life. Higher than $30K will be tough but under $25K is manageable. It's the best investment an Indie filmmaker will make.

My 2.5 million cents...

Henry

[Windjammer]

Foveon is a company started by Carver Mead. The core of the company is the X3 CMOS sensor which uses three layers of sensors. See http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=67 for more info.


I like the idea of using the Foveon chip, tho I don't know much about it. According to the hype in the above link the Foveon captures color in layers just like film. Dunno if this is just marketing hype or if this layer capture really does make a difference in the image, lattitude, etc...

[Graeme_Nattress]

You basically trade resolution for the colours being on top of each other. Not a good trade when bayer pattern single chips are much much higher resolution and cheaper.

Graeme

[Shaw]

Honestly guys, I think we're getting our hopes way to high. Under 10K? There's no way that is technically possible. You can do a lot of things with clout and money but some things still cost a hell of a lot. I'll be quite happy if this comes in under 100K. That would make me happy. I'd love to eat my words of course. Let's just not get our expectations sky high when there's so much still to be done.

Graeme, how do you trade resolution? As far as I can tell a 16mp chip would be able to discern 16mp (when combined with the right glass etc) whereas a normal chip with bayer pattern will cause a loss in resolution.

[Windjammer]

You basically trade resolution for the colours being on top of each other. Not a good trade when bayer pattern single chips are much much higher resolution and cheaper.

Graeme

I'll buy that. BTW, (and sorry in advance for the dumb question) but what is a "bayer pattern"? Is that a brand name or a process?

[HenryK]

I'll buy that. BTW, (and sorry in advance for the dumb question) but what is a "bayer pattern"? Is that a brand name or a process?

Bayer pattern is a process to extract color out of one image sensor. In its RAW format the image is gray scale, after applying the process it becomes RGB color.

[Windjammer]

Bayer pattern is a process to extract color out of one image sensor. In its RAW format the image is gray scale, after applying the process it becomes RGB color.

Sounds like it's different that the traditional 3CCD cameras. Is this what JVC did with their first HDV cam?

[HenryK]

Sounds like it's different that the traditional 3CCD cameras. Is this what JVC did with their first HDV cam?

Yes, because in a 3 CCD situation, each CCD captures a color (RGB) in a single sensor, if you want color you must capture it all within one cycle and make sense of it later.

[Graeme_Nattress]

A bayer pattern is a pattern of alternating R G and B filters on a single chip. To produce a full colour image, you have to "de-bayer" the image. You probably loose about 30% resolution in this process, but, the raw files offer a 66% saving in file size, and have many other benefits as digital photographers who shoot raw know.

Graeme

[skettalee]

I say we should change the pricing of everything in life. Screw paying. lets just give what we got, ill make you a beat, you give me a camera. COOl?

[Windjammer]

A bayer pattern is a pattern of alternating R G and B filters on a single chip. To produce a full colour image, you have to "de-bayer" the image. You probably loose about 30% resolution in this process, but, the raw files offer a 66% saving in file size, and have many other benefits as digital photographers who shoot raw know.

Graeme

Makes sense. So if the Bayer process looses 30% resolution, how much does the Foveon loose in it's color capture process?

Also, if i remember correctly, many people quickly dismissed JVC's first HDV camera because it used only a single CCD - claiming that a 3CCD is the gold standard of quality (or something like that).

[MarcusX]

3CCDs gives you better color information but you loose some light because of the prism.
I understand the Faveon X3 sensor as a 3CCD system without a prism. The CCDs are translucent and each CCDs has a colorfilter. I don't know how exactly this works, but I guess you loose some light by passing through the first and second sensor as well.

So they might perform like a regular 3CCD system, but are a bit more light-sensitive.

[Graeme_Nattress]

But really, with a high enough resolution bayer pattern sensor, you don't need a prism or foveon. And you can make it bigger, which means better control over DOF.

Graeme

[HenryK]

Makes sense. So if the Bayer process looses 30% resolution, how much does the Foveon loose in it's color capture process?

Also, if i remember correctly, many people quickly dismissed JVC's first HDV camera because it used only a single CCD - claiming that a 3CCD is the gold standard of quality (or something like that).

The deal here is that the resolution of the chip is so high 4K, you don't want or really can't have 3 chips. It's the same approach the top digital cinema cameras take (D20, Genesis, Dalsa)... get the highest possible resolution in a single sensor.

The issue with the first JVC HDV camera is that it was a one chip camera for a 1/3" sensor and compressed in MPEG at 19Mbps... wasn't pretty.

[MattC]

Can you imagine capturing video with the same potential as shooting a still image RAW?? That would be simply amazing to me... It's like actually having a negative to work with...

[HenryK]

Can you imagine capturing video with the same potential as shooting a still image RAW?? That would be simply amazing to me... It's like actually having a negative to work with...

Yes, it is indeed amazing. Even if we wouldn't use the RAW feature everytime, it would be incredible to know that we could. Essentially it's like having the built in real stream feature in our camera. I bet it'll cost quit a bit to store the RAW stream in 4K but this is an aparatus that could be rented.

Question for Jim Jannard:

What is the highest resolution, frame rate and compression (lowest) that will be possible with the included storage solution? I suppose 4K RAW wont be out of the box but will we be able to get 1080p60? And how much footage do you plan on allowing us to store at 4:2:2?

Thanks!

Henry

[Shaw]

The thing is it would be precisely like working with a RAW file from a still camera! We're talking about a whopping 11.4mp image! That's a significant increase over the Canon EOS-1D Mark II and very near Nikons newest 12mp DSLR - at 60fps! Damn! I'm loving this!

[Jannard]

All the details will be given at NAB 2006. We are looking at a complete presentation there. One other question that might be asked/answered is what format (say 2540P) at what data rate will FCP HD handle realtime? Lots of great senarios to discuss.

Jim

[pastywhiteboy]

Well Jim... I'm happy to say that you've successfully made us all antsy in our pantsies until NAB!

-pasty

[toke lahti]

[Foveon] might perform like a regular 3CCD system, but are a bit more light-sensitive.
Actually you loose about same amount of light with foveon's layers than with 3ccd prism. And this is again about same than 1-chipper with bayer filters.
So the benefit is the size; with foveon you can have 3ccd resolution without prism in a very small space.
RED will use a full frame chip so the goal is not to make chip as small as possible.
Anyway, it would sound thrilling to have FF foveon chip with 8Mpix per each layer.
Much better resolution with 4:4:4 rgb-signal than with regular 1-chipper and de-bayer.

Again, modularity might fit fine here; more expensive sensor to high end model and cheaper to indie model.

[joshtownsend]

Thanks Jim. Good luck!

[toke lahti]

4K, you don't want or really can't have 3 chips.
I've understood that the problem with 4k 3ccd would be align the chips to a prism and even if you would succeed in that even heat expansion would be a problem.
With foveon there's no such problem, when all the layers are on same piece of silicon.

[Terry_Lasater]

This is superfantabulous news! I must run and wake the villagers.






toke, do you know mikko? :)

[toke lahti]

toke, do you know mikko? :)
Hmmm, not so well anyway, he's so young, maybe we've met. I've been in so many short productions with varying crews and I have a bad name memory...:undecided

[Sumfun]

This is superfantabulous news! I must run and wake the villagers.
:)

Bang the cowbells, the REDs are coming!

[DanielG]

All the details will be given at NAB 2006. We are looking at a complete presentation there. One other question that might be asked/answered is what format (say 2540P) at what data rate will FCP HD handle realtime? Lots of great senarios to discuss.

Jim

A year or so ago, I was thinking about my DVX100 and the quality of images. I had just come back from the Sundance Film Festival and had played with a CineAlta there. I sat down and did a pen and paper design of a camera system. I'm a EE, so I was light on the ergonomics and heavy on the clock rate. I was just one guy up here in the rainy Northwest, a long way from 3000 Sand Hill Road and I didn't know anyone else who was thinking about doing something similar. I have since found the stuff on DVinfo. Oh, well....

I hope you pull this off.

[Jannard]

You weren't the only one staring out the window at the Olympic Mountain range... thinking big thoughts. My view is looking from the north.

Jim

[Digigenic]

Very exciting.
How soon after NAB will there be a production model along with the necessary post-support systems available for review?

[boo]

jim,

on the other forum it was mentioned that w/ this red project, it may motivate the, "big guys" to come out w/ something similar at a reasonable price. i highly doubt this. i feel this will be the hottest buzz at nab 2006.

here's a quote from one of my favorite movies, field of dreams:

"If you build it, they will come."

[Andrew M]

Hi everybody, long time listener - first time caller.

I am ecstatic about the Red Camera - but one detail that I think hasn't been brought up yet (and please forgive me if it has) is that this camera will be on par with the big boys of digital cinema - were talkin' Dalsa Orgin, Grassvalley Viper, Arri - D20 and the Sony f-950 - now all of these cameras (except for the Viiper which can utilize a portable drive) use massive hard-drives and fiber optic cables to store 4k material - now is the general concensus that we (as budget filmmakers) will only be using the 4:2:2 function of the camera because 4k is too expensive to store? - or are there non cost prohibitve solutions out there for storing 4k resoultion footage?

[Darkline]

Its interesting to see what marketing point of view they are coming from.

Clearly I dont expect a camera with a 4K sensor to come it at 5K. At 100K a camera like this would whip cinealtas ass.

However I once read that the total number of cinealtas ever sold in the world was very low. Someone like Panasonic would love to sell 200,000 HVX's than 2000 varicams.

In the long run Panasonic may well make more money from the HVX than they will from the Varicam. I wonder if Red would develop a more 'prosumer' camera in tangent with this dream camera. Something they could take over the budding filmmaker market with. Hitting the prosumer market may indeed prove to be more profitable for them than going for the high end. The demand in this sector is much greater.

I love it when a new company takes on the established moguls. Only then do we find out if we're being undersold or if indeed we're getting the best we can expect right now.

[Luis Caffesse]

I love it when a new company takes on the established moguls. Only then do we find out if we're being undersold or if indeed we're getting the best we can expect right now.

Agreed!
Gotta love the free market.
Some serious competition from a 'new kid' on the block is exactly what this industry needs.


(and no, I don't mean Donnie Wahlberg (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005531/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9ZG9ubn kgd2FobGJlcmd8ZnQ9MXxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8Y289MXxodG1s PTF8bm09MQ__;fc=1;ft=20;fm=1))

[J.R. Hudson]

Come on

We all know we're being screwed by the big boys (Yes, even Panasonic). I don't even want to know the mark-up.

[boo]

Come on

We all know we're being screwed by the big boys (Yes, even Panasonic). I don't even want to know the mark-up.

lol! amen to that. and i'm pretty sure we'll find out how much once the red pricing is announced. :beer:

[Jannard]

I know I'M excited about NAB!

Jim

[stabwound]

You basically trade resolution for the colours being on top of each other. Not a good trade when bayer pattern single chips are much much higher resolution and cheaper.

Graeme

I had a Canon 10D 6 megpixels (Bayer pattern) and now own two Sigma SD9's 3.4 megapixels (Foveon).

The Sigma's are slightly sharper than the Canon, even though the "pixel count" is lower. Each Sigma pixel is capable of reading a different color by itself, while the Bayer needs to interpolate colors from neighbouring pixels.

Pixel for pixel, Foveon is better than Bayer by far, but Bayer pixel count has been skyrocketting in the past year or so to around 12 to 16 megapixels, while Foveon is still stuck at 3.4 megapixels.

Unless Foveon increases their pixel count, they're pretty well sunk.

From what I've seen:

Foveon looks more film-like, with more latitude (less highlight blowouts), while Bayer tends to make people look plasticky and smooth (perhaps because of interpolation).

The big weakness for me is that I can't shoot the Sigma Foveon with iso higher than 100, or the picture gets really noisy. 400 iso looks terrible. I understand the SD9's successor, the SD10 has improved the sensitivities by using microlenses.

The Canon 10D, on the other hand, has super clean noise free pics. I've shot dimly lit pool tournaments at 1600 iso with great success. The newest Canon 5D is even better.

While I love my foveon cameras, I don't think the Foveon chip will work well as a video sensor.... because of low light issues.:(

Hopefully the Mysterium chip will successfully combine the positive atttributes of Bayer and Foveon, though I suspect the Mysterium chip is really a Bayer, which is cheaper to make.

Go Jim Go!!! Red will be my next purchase... after my hvx200.:laugh: :laugh:

[esperman]

All I can say is this:
NOBODY should ever accuse Jarred of being a panny marketing doll. Panny has given us decent products at decent prices, and thats why most of us here like the DVCPRO family of codecs.

BUT the fact RED now has a second home on the DVXuser forum says alot.

Go Jared.

[Jarred Land]

Yes.. i do whats best for the people, not for a company. And the Red camera is gonna make alot of people happy here... which is why it gets its own home.

Oh, and plus its christmas and i needed a little red on the site. :)

[esperman]

And I'd be real happy to be a beta tester for RED next christmas! LOL

[spencer]

I'd be happy to just see footage by next christmas, or sooner, despite all means of feasibility that contradict my wishes.. I'm amazed with the HVX's downrezzed 720p 60 fps footage, so I'm probably going to have a heart attack whenever I see the highest resolution footage for the RED

[Jannard]

As noted above, there are a lot of factors that go into a good image. Canon DSLR's have proven that a single chip and bayer solution does NOT limit the quality of the image. We have a lot of things to get right... sensor, A to D, DSP, etc. and we have to do it in the smallest package possible (you can always make small big, not visa versa). It is a tremendous challenge... just what we signed up for. We are already past a couple of "insurmountable hurdles"... with many more on the horizon.

Jim

[emmanuel cambier]

Jim about that final cut pro remark you did...
how about a new software which would take and mix some concepts from final cut, aperture, shake and maybe discreet elements.
especially what aperture brings to raw workflow (despite some conversion issues) in terms of practicality and GUI, would be nice to have for 4k raw editing.

the red project and the example of format on your site (the canon EOS ones)
made me truly realize that an average sized raw picture is in fact the same as a 4k raw still from a camera like the red.
the difference is that the canon eos-1ds mark II can take 4 pictures/sec. and the red camera will take 60 pictures/sec. at times.
i just wonder how far or how close do we stand from what could be the "hell" of a workflow.
so exciting
emmanuel

[Jannard]

We'll leave the software to the "trained professionals". We have are hands full just moving info around inside our "box". As far as workflow is concerned, CPUs keep getting faster, storage larger and cheaper and codecs better. We aren't designing and building a camera for what is working today, we are building one for what will be tomorrow.

[Greg Lowry]

Cameras cannot and do not successfully exist in isolation from support technologies and services. Developing an efficient workflow model AND ensuring that all of the necessary technologies, systems, software and services exist and function in a demanding, real-world environment is absolutely crucial to the wide adoption of a camera system. There are many historical examples of this in both the film and video worlds.

I contend that the acceptance of the GVG Viper, for example, would have been more immediate and widespread if the necessary workflow infrastructure had been more developed at the time of its introduction. But what actually happened is that users had to "invent" a workflow and try to assemble the various missing pieces of technology necessary to effectively make us of the camera technology. For example, the absence of an efficient recording technology was a problem from the beginning, and GVG has not yet shipped their on-board flashmag recorder announced early in 2005. IMO, GVG deferred the matter of recording technologies to third parties and the Viper has languished very badly because of that decision. For a long time, there was nowhere to go to obtain everything required to efficiently shoot and post-produce Viper footage. And that is STILL a problem. Drawing a production and post-production flow chart in a brochure and hoping that third party manufacturers and service providers will fill in the missing pieces is worlds away from an actual functioning workflow infrastructure. What makes this particularly difficult to understand is that GVG and Technicolor are sister companies. It's only recently, some 4 (or is it 5?) years after its introduction, that the Viper is gaining traction and finding a meaningful place in the industry. But one might argue that the 3-CCD Viper is an aging technology. Slow acceptance combined with a relatively short product life makes for terrible ROI.

It appears that the RED team understands the importance of a comprehensive system of core camera systems, sub-systems and accessories. But I respectfully submit that deferring ANY related workflow consideration to third parties is to flirt with disaster. Those "trained professionals" need to be RED's close collaborators NOW because successful conception, design and integration of any technology is a painstaking process. It is increasingly necessary for camera makers to be deeply involved in the development of workflow solutions or they (1) won't happen, (2) won't happen fast enough, or (3) may not be equal to the capabilities of your camera technology. The strength of a great imaging technology can easily be negated by many other practical considerations. Hazy workflow is particularly deadly. Producers don't like uncertainty -- they flee from it.

I strongly urge the Redsters to take as much interest in how footage from the RED will be handled throughout the entire workflow as they do in developing a beautiful camera technology. Assemble a strong workflow team to collaborate with your camera development team. You may decide that it's desirable or even necessary to develop some key post-production technologies in-house, or you may find some willing technology partners to fill the gaps. I would venture to say that these explorations will likely result in valuable design changes to the camera itself. For every dollar you spend solving workflow issues before you launch the camera product, you'll get multiple dollars back in sales because you'll have a happy, efficient, productive, successful RED camera user base. You'll never, ever regret that move. Don't wait until your camera product is finished. By then it's too late. The ultimate success of your camera product may depend on it.

My additions to the feature set wish list: Make the RED camera so tough that you can drive a truck over it. Banish the word "magnesium" from your lexicon (if it's even there) and use your titanium capabilities. But don't make it TOO lightweight. Gravity is a friend of both handheld operation and rock-soiid tripod operation. Compact is good, but too small is a detriment for professional use. Hands aren't getting any smaller, nor is eyesight improving. The controls should be made for operation by full-sized humans functioning in difficult conditions, not for engineers in the R&D lab.

My last bit of unsolicited advice: Please take the time to get it right. If at NAB 2007 you're showing several different working prototypes -- including one that maybe looks a bit odd but balances on the shoulder hands-free -- I'll regard that to be serious progress. As for the poll regarding the selling price, all I can say is that if RED can manufacture a reliable, pro-quality S35mm sensor camera with the feature set listed on the RED.com site, amortize R&D, and sell it at a profit for less than $50k (without lenses), Mr. Jannard is a genius. None of us are privy to RED's business model, but that may be as interesting as the technology.

No guts, no glory. Go for it!

Sincere best wishes to RED for every success,

Greg Lowry

[ddh]

Jim you make my heart skip a beat with what you've got going!!!
Waiting in the wings. The best of luck!

[Jannard]

Greg, my mis-statement. Sorry. When I said "leave it to the trained professionals" I didn't mean put our head in the sand and hope it all works out, I meant that we will not be code writers, but rather collaborators.

[Gibby]

We aren't designing and building a camera for what is working today, we are building one for what will be tomorrow.

A thoroughly refreshing and progressive breath of fresh air in a media equipment industry obsessed with protecting their upper end equipment offerings - encouraged by studios, networks, stations, and producers fixated on maximizing their legacy investments.

The potential end result of this?

Disruptive technology = quantum progression = creative latitude = enabled production = industry democratization = fiscal diversity = new paradigm

The sooner, the better...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[Greg Lowry]

What exactly is wrong with attempting to maximize the return on one's investment? Don't we all do that? That's good business. There is no international conspiracy to repress "industry democratization". No electronics cartel trying to exclude the little guy from gaining a foothold by keeping equipment costs out of reach. If you think so, you have no idea how much this stuff costs to develop and manufacture. There are gaps in the middle of the market that RED may be able to fill. But there are already lots of tools in lots of price ranges. It's unclear if any of the manufacturers are really making much money on their high-end offerings. Relative to ongoing development costs, margins are not huge -- contrary to popular opinion (speculation).

RED will potentially add an exciting new tool to the mix, but to paint it as a disruptive technology -- especially before the product is finished -- is just plain hype and is based more on the wild speculation about it's ultimate selling price than anything else. Not even it's makers know how much it'll cost to manufacture yet. Having been involved in camera R&D I know there's a mountain of reality to deal with between here and there.

I for one would feel more comfortable if those who post here who have any affiliation with RED would make that known so those posts have an appropriate context. That seems reasonable.

Best wishes to all for a Happy Holiday and a creatively fulfilling, prosperous New Year!

Greg Lowry

[Jannard]

All the RED camera specs and team members will be properly presented at NAB 2006. Plenty of time to get comfortable before the camera ships. This is just "sneak preview" time. We are using the feedback from this and other boards to make sure we are listening to the customer. We have already added several features from posts on this board.

Some people are excited now at the prospects and some will wait to get excited when they actually see something. Some will buy the 1st cameras (we already have a list of people who want to place an order not knowing the price) and others will wait until the camera has proven itself in use by the early adopters. Our only job is to build a breakaway product that many have dreamed about. No utopia here. We just want to move the market more quickly than it appears other companies care to.

Jim

[Gibby]

Greg,

I see that you’re new to DVX User (5 posts). We don’t know each other and you haven’t posted a bio profile. You posted a strong response to my last post, so let me respond to your response:


What exactly is wrong with attempting to maximize the return on one's investment? Don't we all do that? That's good business. There is no international conspiracy to repress "industry democratization". No electronics cartel trying to exclude the little guy from gaining a foothold by keeping equipment costs out of reach. If you think so, you have no idea how much this stuff costs to develop and manufacture. There are gaps in the middle of the market that RED may be able to fill. But there are already lots of tools in lots of price ranges. It's unclear if any of the manufacturers are really making much money on their high-end offerings. Relative to ongoing development costs, margins are not huge -- contrary to popular opinion (speculation).

There’s nothing wrong with maximizing an investment, as long as you don’t pass what economists term “the point of diminishing returns”. Once the utility, appreciation, or ability to generate income of a given commodity has passed the point where it can effectively generate it’s maximum returns potential, it has passed the point of diminishing returns. If you want to do what you term “good business”, there must be a decision point where you turn over your equipment for newer or more capable technology. A lot of legacy equipment is past the point of diminishing returns, and at some point the owners need to change over to newer equipment. I didn’t mention a “cartel”, and yes, after three decades in national television production, I have a good handle on the costs of R&D, and how the large equipment manufacturers function. They don’t publish their margins, or margins per product, so anything anyone says is speculation, whether it is positive or negative speculation.


RED will potentially add an exciting new tool to the mix, but to paint it as a disruptive technology -- especially before the product is finished -- is just plain hype and is based more on the wild speculation about it's ultimate selling price than anything else. Not even it's makers know how much it'll cost to manufacture yet. Having been involved in camera R&D I know there's a mountain of reality to deal with between here and there.

RED could be termed disruptive technology simply on the strength of the specs published on the RED web site – even though a price level for the cameras has not been confirmed. If the camera is completed with those specs, ships in a timely manner, and priced to sell, it could indeed be “disruptive” technology. You call that speculation, but your position that it won’t be disruptive is every bit as much speculation as my position is. I guess time will tell whose speculation is correct.


I for one would feel more comfortable if those who post here who have any affiliation with RED would make that known so those posts have an appropriate context. That seems reasonable.
I for one would be more comfortable if every new person to join DVX User would post a bio sketch on their user profile so longtime users could know who the new members are affiliated with and what their background is. I did that when I first joined, and I always post my web address on each one of my posts so that members can go to my site to learn more about my professional background and me. I’ve got nothing to hide and I routinely post my info links. If you read through my bio info on my DVX user profile you’ll see that I own my own company, and that I’m a producer, packager, and syndicator of national television programs. I’m not an employee of Oakley, RED, or Jim Jannard, and never have been. I have known Jim Jannard for many years, and he has my utmost respect as a businessman. His track record speaks for itself. His business history, coupled with my career-long anticipation of new technology tools in the media production business, is the primary motivation for my enthusiasm for the RED camera.


Best wishes to all for a Happy Holiday and a creatively fulfilling, prosperous New Year!

Welcome to DVX User Greg! The cool thing about this board is the diversity of opinions and backgrounds. It’s a level playing field. Best wishes to you for a great holiday period and definitely an unbelievable prosperous 2006!

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[Greg Lowry]

Gibby,

I apologize if my post seemed antagonistic. That wasn't my intention. It was really a response to an accumulation of posts that I have read on a couple of boards which portray the mainstream equipment manufacturers as villains and RED as some sort of technological messiah. The world is infinitely more complex than that, isn't it? High end pro gear serves its market, and the lower end stuff does the same thing. No product is ever perfect.

As for the economics of the market, I have some knowledge of the profitability, or otherwise, of the HD divisions of the big guys. The point I wanted to make is that the capital investment in R&D is always a risk and not every product is a winner. The revenue from successful products needs to cover the failures or those with little or no profitability. When a product is successful, it's logical for the manufacturer to extract every dollar possible before replacing it. If they replace it too soon, they suffer the consequences. Likewise if they take too long to replace it. The market is the ultimate leveller.

It's not my place to tell others what to think. I did, however, hope to suggest that we can all be very enthusiastic about the prospects for RED without projecting too many fantasies onto a product that's still in development. Publishing a feature set is easy, building the product is hard. That's not a criticism of RED. I didn't say it wouldn't be a disruptive technology. I just prefer not think in those terms until I see the product and how it fits into the market at the time of introduction. The market is definitely a moving target, and the manufacturers aren't idle. I suspect that rather than being a disruptive technology, RED will find its own particular niche because the market is so diversified and becoming more so. No camera product can be all things to all users. Because I naturally root for all new enterprises, particuarly those that aspire to greatness, I do hope that RED finds a huge market for its product. Mr. Jannard has wisely not quoted a target price, but that vacuum of information leads to speculation. Some of it seems grounded in reality, some of it less so. Like everyone else, I bring my own knowledge, experience, biases and desires to my own speculation. But I assure you it's all well-intended.

I have seen your enthusiastic (dare i say effusive?) promotion of RED elsewhere, so I wondered if you have some relationship to the company as a consultant or advisor. Thanks for your explanation.

As for my own background, I postponed the completion of my profile because I'm in the midst of merging my company with another one, relocating it, building a new website, and a multitude of other things that accompany such a change, while at the same time developing new products and producing content. I thought I would wait a couple of weeks until the new website and email are up, but fair is fair: my "old" company is HD3D Moviemakers Ltd. The website is http://www.hd3dmovies.com. My email is gregorylowry@hd3dmovies.com. I'll complete my profile with the new corporate info in due course.

Best regards,
Greg

[Gopher_Greene]

The revenue from successful products need to cover the failures or those with little or no profitability.



Just ask Sony.

As for the red phenomenon I’m just glad there is another horse in the race. Especially one that’s willing to push the envelope. Digital photography has been at a 35mm format for some time, doesn’t seem like too huge a jump to get there with motion pictures. Thanks Red!

BTW my suggestions are in the data stream all the metadata should be part of the output. Including lens settings if possible.
Complete remote control from a laptop would be a nice feature
Finally it would be really nice to have a portable data storage that can go on the run with a steadicam and record uncompressed video.

Thanks Mr Jannard I’ll be looking forward to NAB

[Jannard]

I am sure that I'm not alone in appreciation for a board with a lot of great contribution. Since we have not posted the price range of our camera, it seems fair that speculation would occur on both sides of enthusiasm. At least for now.

I only have one remaining request from the posters... please call me Jim.

[skipmaroogans]

no problem jim

Skip

[toke lahti]

What exactly is wrong with attempting to maximize the return on one's investment?

From the content makers point of view (and from a very visual one), wrongness is that you don't get quality tools for your craft with decent prices like other crafts (like still photography) get.

Computers, still cameras, televisions, communications are getting better and more affordable all the time. Why wouldn't moving image cameras? After dv came one decade ago, very little has changed. Sony noticed that vx1000 ate a lot of higher priced cameras markets and since then every video camera maker has been stalling development to protect their high end models.
Video cameras with hd capability have been as expensive as film cameras so no development there either.

There has been quite nothing competitive in the price range of 5k to 50k and I wonder why...
Of course R&D is expensive and even more if there is not even idea to sell large quantities of those products.

[Graeme_Nattress]

You're right. There's no reason digibeta should have costed what it did - it never really dropped much in price over it's life, whereas a computer would have dropped 10 fold, or got 10 times better for the same price.

Graeme

[TimeKoder13]

Diggin the Red and RED. Feels like gang territory with all the Blue and Red tho'. But that Red is definitely impacting my subconscious id. May have to keep that in mind as I begin to learn Flash and web-design for real now. What up Grame?

[toke lahti]

You're right. There's no reason digibeta should have costed what it did - it never really dropped much in price over it's life, whereas a computer would have dropped 10 fold, or got 10 times better for the same price.
I believe that sony shot itself to the foot (once again) with digibeta. With reasonable pricing there would be nobody using analog beta anymore, but if I remember correctly they are still selling more analog tapes than digibeta.
Instead of getting digibeta (which is still after more than decade highest quality sd format) popular they just tried to downgrade it and sell all these SX's and IMX's.
What a waste... It makes me sad to think how much things could have developed in last decade (and that's about the time I've been in this business), if these companies would have choosed to come out of their ivory towers.
I bought my 16:9 tv set 1995 and it took a whole decade to get a camera under 20k (30k w/ lens) that will produce decent 16:9!
Well, maybe they get better profits selling dvcam to professionals...

[Spartacus]

@Jim Jannard
May I sugest something?
Even though I´m really wishing you not only come up with sth revolutionary image wise, but with sth affordable for many of us, if you somehow can´t make the RED for a sub 10k price, why not also offer a "volks-cam", a REDlite, a beefed down fixed lens model that records compressed HD to compact flash or sth (but still superior to the hvx, h1, hd100...)?
If you´re really gonna make the high-end affordable to the masses forget what i just wrote and good luck...!

[RyanF]

Jim Jannard? Is this the same as James Jannard, the owner / founder of Oakley, the eyeware company?

[Shaw]

yes indeed!

[SalaTar]

James Jannard,
After reading a bit more I am less a pessimist and more of a dreamer.
I hope you take your dream and make it ours.
The large companies have screwed the small users for a long time, the "release only the better of what we have when we can get more $$ mentality"
But also in the same breath if you release only to one target audience you can lose too (Beta vs.VHS, NTSC vs. Pal)
We use VHS because the porn industry adopted it.
We use NTSC in America cause were stooped.

[melloyello]

just wanted to point out that thinksecret is now predicting a new apple product entitled final cut extreme, priced at $10,000 and designed to nativly cut 4k video.

and for jim for ergonomics please gain insperation from aaton camera more than panavisions or arri's and please, please, please ignore eng style camera designs.

also would love to see a "filmspeed" setting rather than any type of gain.

[Noel Evans]

I just cant believe this wont cost a packet. When you add lenses and ff and etc, to be usable I think it would be out of my league. Then again if it does deliver what it says it will then rental is always an option I guess.

[Erik Olson]

95% of the users here can't afford this camera - regardless of whether the head comes in at <$15k. Not many of the users at Cinematography either, for that matter. Why? Well, take accessorization for starters...

Has anyone costed cinema-quality glass or rented it for that matter? We recently rented a half set of T2 S4 primes (not on my dime) to the tune of $4k for interviews and beauty pass work on a Discovery series. Spendy!

A Scenario...

Say you skip buying a set of prime cinema lenses for this thing (most F900 owners I've worked with do) - instead, using a high-quality zoom as variable prime. Like me, the ability to pick up your camera and shoot whenever it tickles you to do so is probably something you'd like with your RED rig as well. That means you own at least some glass - you don't rent it.

Remember, you must use glass capable of framing and resolving for 16:9 HD acquisition - that old 17-35mm F2.8 Nikkor might just work! I know people will try throwing a $400 lens on the front of this thing - I know because I get calls all the time from good people who want to put sub-standard (for cinema) SLR glass on their DOF converters. Thrift and independent filmmaking go hand-in-hand after all.

Options, options...

Take the Cooke HD S4 as a top-tier, professional example of a "variable prime" lens suited to 4k resolving cinematography - at $50,000 it still represents a bargain versus buying a set of primes at +/- $10k a pop.

Canon HD 11-4.7 Zoom - $29k

I'd put it to RED to test, leverage (with their massive purchasing power), secure and competitively package suitable glass for the camera as early as possible in the design process. Certainly, with the lineage behind it, optics compatibility is squarely at the top of the list of things to do.

e

[235 Studios]

95% of the users here can't afford this camera - regardless of whether the head comes in at <$15k. Not many of the users at Cinematography either, for that matter. Why? Well, take accessorization for starters...

Good points - it will be interesting to follow the development of this camera, and see what comes out- regardless of what the final cost of ownership is.

[Sumfun]

Take the Cooke HD S4 as a top-tier, professional example of a "variable prime" lens suited to 4k resolving cinematography - at $50,000 it still represents a bargain versus buying a set of primes at +/- $10k a pop.

Canon HD 11-4.7 Zoom - $29k



True, the HD lenses are very expensive, but one reason for that is that so few of them are sold. If there's demand from the prosumer market, the manufacturers can probably sell 20X more lenses, and thus bring the price way down. How much remains to be seen.

Most of us probably still wouldn't be able to afford it.

[Erik Olson]

Even 5 - 10k users won't affect the price of that glass. I'd put a bet on it.

e

[Graeme_Nattress]

But bigger sensors don't need as sharp a lens, but bigger lenses have more glass in them.

Graeme

[Greg Lowry]

But bigger sensors don't need as sharp a lens, but bigger lenses have more glass in them.

Graeme

It's more difficult to design HD lenses for smaller sensors, but to say that bigger sensors "don't need as sharp a lens" is misleading.

[Greg Lowry]

But bigger sensors don't need as sharp a lens, but bigger lenses have more glass in them.

Graeme

It's more difficult to design HD lenses for smaller sensors, but to say that bigger sensors "don't need as sharp a lens" is very misleading.

[Erik Olson]

...bigger sensors don't need as sharp a lens, but bigger lenses have more glass in them.

Uhh... huh? What?

e

[Jannard]

Graeme is correct on both points. Hasselblad lenses never delivered the lpm of a Canon or Nikon lens but the images were better because of format size. More glass is needed only for format coverage at same speed.

[Graeme_Nattress]

A bigger sensor really helps on the glass front. That's one of the issues with 1/3" HD cameras - too small a sensor means you need very fine glass, and too small a sensor means big noise. Going to a big 4k sensor avoids all this - it's all about doing somethign "right".

Graeme

[zem]

That's one of the issues with 1/3" HD cameras - too small a sensor means you need very fine glass, and too small a sensor means big noise. Going to a big 4k sensor avoids all this

i dont have any experience with chip design but a fair bit about optics, and i'd assume that the point is not so much sensor size, but sensor resolution, or pixel density...
in other words, if you'd design a 1920 horizontal pixel chip in 2/3ich size, and a 1920px chip in 35mm frame size, of course the 35mm lens would need much less resolving power. if on the other hand you cramp 4500pixels on the 35mm chip, you'll end up with nearly the same pixel density which means the lens would have to have the same resolving power, but cover a much bigger area... which is actually more difficult to build (one thing that helps a bit is that the 35mm lenses are of longer focal lenght, which simplifys lens design).

anyway, at the moment all that is pretty much moot for me, since i could only afford to shoot in compressed 1080p anyway, where noise should be a none issue and any old tamron lens should resolve that much. then, in 5 years i'll rent some ultra primes and shoot 4K. actually i'm beginning to like this way of thinking ;)

btw jim, can you give any information already about if this is going to be more a cine style camera (ie full manual lens, no sync audio etc) or rather a ENG style lens?

++ chris


edit:
i might add that since the total resolution is a function of both, the lens and the recording resolution, the red will beat any 2/3" HD camera simply because of it's much higher chip resolution, even with a medicore lens.

[Greg Lowry]

I referred to Graeme's statement as "misleading" rather than wrong because it had no context. It's not really sensor size that's the issue, it's pixel size given the total spatial resolution of the sensor. Smaller pixels require lenses of higher resolving power. But a larger sensor with greater spatial resolution may require lenses of equal (or even greater) resolving power (depending on pixel size). This too is an oversimplication. The term "sharpness" is a loaded one, as it is not interchangeable with "resolution". Factors other than lp/mm are also relevant. I'm honestly not trying to split hairs or being argumentative, but it's my observation that simple statements can be misleading and are often repeated as fact, and that ultimately serves no one. Prefacing a statement with something like "all other things being equal" can go a long way to avoid misunderstanding.

Regards,
Greg

[Jannard]

Let me take a swing at oversimplification on steroids... our camera and lens combo is going to be "bad ass". You can use those "specs" until we can post more details.

[harlan]

LOL!!! Great summary of Red. :)

[Sumfun]

Let me take a swing at oversimplification on steroids... our camera and lens combo is going to be "bad ass". You can use those "specs" until we can post more details.

Nice. Can we take this to mean that you'll be coming out with your own lens, too?

[Erik Olson]

Jim,

Knowing you guys are on this thing is awesome. It is a rare priveledge for content creators to have such unfettered access to the developers during the R&D process.

I look forward to meeting you at NAB.

e

[pastywhiteboy]

Nice. Can we take this to mean that you'll be coming out with your own lens, too?
The whole lens thing has been stated on the RED website for quite a long time... "Or change to the RED mount and use our new set of RED Ultra Definition Cinema Lenses." - (from red.com)

[myfriendimage]

If they are est 1999, what have they been doing since then?

[pastywhiteboy]

If they are est 1999, what have they been doing since then?
Hmmm... why would they announce a camera 7 years before it's release? Just because they didn't announce it when they first thought of the name RED, doesn't mean they haven't been developing it for quite some time now. Jim has stated that his goal is to have the camera ready by the end of this year, so announcing it now is just good timing to get people excited and to keep their interest.

-pasty

[myfriendimage]

I not saying they should have, Im saying what the hell have they been doing for seven years. Dont assume.

[pastywhiteboy]

I not saying they should have, Im saying what the hell have they been doing for seven years. Dont assume.

If Jim really wanted to tell us what he's been doing for the last seven years, he would. If I were him, I wouldn't feel obligated to waste my valuable time saying anything about what has happened, but I would be excited to tell about what is going to happen. The point is, the future of RED is what's important, not the non-existent past.

-pastywhiteboy

[myfriendimage]

If Jim really wanted to tell us what he's been doing for the last seven years, he would. If I were him, I wouldn't feel obligated to waste my valuable time saying anything about what has happened, but I would be excited to tell about what is going to happen. The point is, the future of RED is what's important, not the non-existent past.

-pastywhiteboy

Personally I just want to know to establish credability. Ive never heard of red camera or Jim jannard and here is he tinkering with a 4k camera to supposedly revolutionize the camera industry. Im not snooping, I just wanna know who is this guy. You cant wake up one morning saying you know what I think Im gonna invent the first inexpensive 4k camera and go downstairs and and start taking apart DVX's and Arri 235's or whatever and making a super camera. I wanna know some backround.

[pastywhiteboy]

Personally I just want to know to establish credability. Ive never heard of red camera or Jim jannard and here is he tinkering with a 4k camera to supposedly revolutionize the camera industry. Im not snooping, I just wanna know who is this guy. You cant wake up one morning saying you know what I think Im gonna invent the first inexpensive 4k camera and go downstairs and and start taking apart DVX's and Arri 235's or whatever and making a super camera. I wanna know some backround.

A thread on Jim.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=42979

[zem]

I just wanna know who is this guy.

ever heard of google?
(alternatively you could just go to http://www.jimjannard.com)

++ chris

[Graeme_Nattress]

Why can't you just wake up one morning and decide to do that? Every great product or idea starts that way. And if you're a camera nut, who has more cameras than I've had hot dinners, loves cameras, photography and the technology behind it, and can afford it, why not say "I'm going to make the best darn camera possible!!" and actually do it! Why not!!! But keep saying we can't do it, as nothing drives us more certainly towards a better product than those who say "it can't be done."

Graeme

[im.thatoneguy]

nothing drives us more certainly towards a better product than those who say "it can't be done."

It can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done...

Sweet, 2 more Megapixels! We need a monestary somewhere chanting this for the next couple of months....

[dudadoubt]

I hope that this camera becomes available worldwide soon when u release it. And i pray it is just as affordable as the sony fx1. The Red camera will help revive our fledgling film industry in the Philippines. A lot of indie filmmakers here are using dv but suffer on the resolution when movies are blown up to 35mm or projected to the big screen. Hope the Red Cam makes it.

[hemophilia]

Someone brought up ENG vs. cinema camera-- does it have to be that clear-cut? Sync-sound, for example, is a good thing. This camera is going to be streaming absurd amounts of data to some kind of digital format, might as well be able to take up a tiny bit of that bandwidth with digital audio. Even if they don't want to commit to having XLR mic-pres with phantom power built-in to the camera, at least spdif or optical or some kinda digital input (ADAT optical format transfers 8 channels in one line, and there are tons of stand-alone pres for that sort of thing... oooooh wouldn't that be fancy?) so that with minimal hassle digital audio streams can be recorded sync'ed from the get go.

Oh and blah blah blah price speculation, blah blah price speculation.

[kprince]

Think the images will look anything like or better than the Canon 20d or 5D ?? Maybe? Good luck with your dream cam, sounds solid.

[Grant]

This guys owns Oakley Sunglasses
This camera is not going to be "CHEAP" Last pair of Oakleys I bought were well over $200 bucks and they were not the most expensive ones by far!!!!!

[tlorenzo]

Check out www.jimjannard.com (http://www.jimjannard.com) and see for yourself. This guys isn't exactly John Doe; he knows how to use a camera, knows the technology behind the camera - AND apparently loves to shoot it.

Tony

[js33]

It seems to me the RED camera will take existing digital still camera sensors and adapt them to video. So lets say you take 3 11.4 megapixel still camera sensors or a new Foveon type 3 color on one sensor and create a way to ramp them up to 60fps then it would be possible. But that will be a lot of data flowing out of this thing at 60fps at 4250x2540 that would be 684 megabytes per second uncompressed or RAW format. Lets assume the RED codec can compress that 10:1 then it would only be 68.4MBytes per scond which is still 547.2 megabits per second, compare with DVCProHD highest data rate of 100 megabits per second. So you would have about 4.1 gigabytes per minute. So assuming you have a hard drive recorder that could keep up with the datarate you could get about 73 minutes of footage on a 300 gig drive at 4250 x 2540.
Also video needs to go to 16 bit per channel file formats like HDRI (High Dynamic Range Imagery) as the CGI industry is currently using. Then and only then will video be able to exceed film in dynamic range.

Wow that's pretty crazy but it would be cool.

[finegrain]

First off, I think I speak for everyone when I say I hope this camera lives up to even half of what I've heard. It will completely change the market. Best of luck.

Since Jim is lurking on these pages, I thought I'd throw in my latest frustration having just completed a couple of short shoots with HDV cameras.

It seems that a major challenge is that the camera is being positioned to have a little for everyone. Which means it's hard to figure out where to compromise features for price. This is obvious when it comes to picture quality, which is what everyone is focused on. But it also applies to more overlooked features:

1. Someone already mentioned sync sound. The current crop of prosumer cameras have inadequate inputs for sound. I'm used to recording to a separate audio recorded, but why not have professional inputs to record audio.

2. The viewfinder. I can't stress this enough. The current crop of view finders on the "prosumer" HD cameras are hopeless. I admit I'm not the best on focus, but the resolution is too high to be guessing. Again, if I'm shooting with a crew, I'm going to have an HD monitor to check focus. I'm used to that. But the camera also seems to be appealing to the HVX/Z1 market, where an on-set monitor is often (mistakenly) seen as a luxury. In that case, I need a viewfinder that I can actually use to check focus.

Again, I understand that there is always a trade-off between price and features, so this is just to add food for thought. Again, can't wait for NAB, good luck Jim.

[Gordon JL]

You know, in the beginning, I thought this camera was aimed for the really independent filmmaker; the type of person who would purchase a DVX or HVX; but it seems this isn't really the case. It's more aimed toward the professionals, and is to compete against cameras like the F900, but be much cheaper.

But I'm thinking maybe there should be two versions of the RED camera offered; the "pro" version, and a stripped down version; only having the "essential" features of the RED camera -- it would still be superior to cameras like the HVX, but stripped down enough to be on the same price level as the HVX, or maybe even the DVX -- in other words, this stripped down version doesn't aim to be the "best of the best" or the holy grail of ALL cameras, but instead, to be the holy grail on the PROSUMER level. Sort of like the HVX, but with a large sensor-chip for DOF, and uncompressed HD to boot. That's it. Now THIS is the camera I would buy... And I think a lot of people on this board and the independent film community would also.

[Stephen W]

The impresssion I get is that they want it to remove the distinction between "pro" and "independent" - in terms of the hardware at any rate.

[Tzedekh]

But I'm thinking maybe there should be two versions of the RED camera offered; the "pro" version, and a stripped down version; only having the "essential" features of the RED camera. . . . Now THIS is the camera I would buy... And I think a lot of people on this board and the independent film community would also.This idea has been discussed here before. If by "stripped-down version" you mean one that has the same basic specs (eg, same form factor, same imager), then I believe that that's what Jim Jannard intends -- a modular system. But he has said that RED (and I assume that includes the base model) won't be a $4,000 camera. I'd be surprised if it comes in under $10,000 without a lens. A lens -- even an old Angenieux or Cooke 35-mm zoom -- will add $3,000 to $5,000.

[uriahocean]

I have been following the posts in this forum and I am very excited about the future prospects of the RED system. In addition, let it be known RED will not be the first camera to record 4k. Although the camera will offer features no other manufacture is producing at this point, RED does have future competition.

Please read about a camera in development called the Kinetta. The Kinetta camera was introduced at the NAB 2004 Digital Cinema Summit on April 18, 2004. Thus far, the camera can be hand-cranked at 1080p, record RAW format, replaceable sensors and boards, removable magazines that store RAID hard drives, etc.

Unfortunately not much has been stated about further development of the Kinetta camera. Perhaps the cost of mass producing such a camera or finding a market suitable for sales has slowed research and or production. Please visit the Kinetta website for a detailed explanation of the camera and system. I am sure we all will be looking forward to more exciting developments beyond HD.

Uriah Ocean Peterson

http://www.kinetta.com/home.php

[Aaron Koolen]

Dunno if anyone's seen this, but on Think Secret they mention RED when talking about Apple's Final Cut Extreme...This is what they said..

"Sources note that Apple's Final Cut Extreme announcement will coincide with Red's upcoming 4K digital cinema camera, a revolutionary piece of equipment that is said will be priced upwards of $200,000. Pricing for Final Cut Extreme is said to be similarly up-market, approaching $10,000 a seat, and will require the latest hardware from Apple. "

$200K? Let the speculation begin...

[Jarred Land]

All i know is that Think Secret is wrong about 90% of the time... If the camera cost 200k Jim would not be here, and I wouldnt waste my time dedicating an entire seperate forum for RED.

[Aaron Koolen]

Yeah I know, it sounded completely off base for sure.

[Sam Fisher]

The only way to enter a market is with a better product. That is exactly what we intend to do. Somebody's got to kill us to get us to quit.

I don't know if we're getting rezzed up over nothing here, but you have to be inspired by a statement like that. If this cameara delivers on promises already made it will completely change the television/film industry. One camera fits all. A true 4K capture should have excellent enough picture quality to far surpass the murky 35mm prints we see at theatres now. But you could shoot your TV episodes on the same camera, and your second unit stuff, and your miniatures and green screen, and and and...

One of the things that was great about the DVX was that it de-mystified video for most people. Remember how hard it was to get your hands on a Beta Cam before that? Sony decided they were worth, what 70K, so everyone thought you had to be some kind of super highly trained unionized technician to hold one. Now the unionized technicians won't hold them because they're too heavy and, that might cause injury. Frankly they don't even make good door stops... But seriously, Red might do the same thing for cinema quality work. The big scary thing about an Arri package is the big scary price tag and the big scary insurance certificate you have to sign when you get one. It's just very intimidating.

What's really exciting about the prospect of an affordable cinema quality camera is that we'll see the cream rising to the top a lot faster. Young genuinely talented people will be less at the mercy of big budgets and studio executives and able to just get out there. Mmm. Bet Robert Rodriguez is all over this.

And since Jim seems to be listening, how about getting that fancy factory of yours to churn out a couple of nice lightweight geared heads. It's the only way to go for really smooth operation, but who wants to lug all that weight?

[Zig_Zigman]

Think Secret is correct at least half the time, and the 200k number is just FUD so that they blow everyone away with the real price, and also to keep the comp off balance.

Under 20k without the lens....

[Arcwave]

That's still a ton of money...

But for what it does I guess some people can manage.

[zuvis]

Just sudently realised - its one month til NAB, just one[!] month left!

[stokestack]

...one detail that I think hasn't been brought up yet (and please forgive me if it has) is that this camera will be on par with the big boys of digital cinema... now all of these cameras (except for the Viiper which can utilize a portable drive) use massive hard-drives and fiber optic cables to store 4k material - now is the general concensus that we (as budget filmmakers) will only be using the 4:2:2 function of the camera because 4k is too expensive to store? - or are there non cost prohibitve solutions out there for storing 4k resoultion footage?

It's weird how everyone focuses on the camera itself and largely ignores this serious problem. It's the problem faced by ANY proposed high-res digital motion-picture camera. How are you going to PORTABLY handle the massive bitrate of the data coming off this camera? Even the big-name, established players have yet to devise a good solution for lesser payloads than what we're talking about with Red. How much are those HDCam SR tape units, $60K? And they're still a big-ass outboard piece of equipment that you have to lug around.

Addressing the data volume is the biggest challenge and the most mysterious unanswered question in the entire Red discussion.

[Jarred Land]

Its not unanswered.. in fact they already have partners that will be in the RED booth that have a solution to recording 4k.

And remember, 4k is the maximum resolution. It will go down to 2k, 1080, 720 if you want.. and most people probally will. You are not forced to shoot 4k, but its sure nice to be able to if you hafta... even if its a few years down the road. I remember 3 years ago 1080 was almost impossible to handle on a normal desktop.. now its a piece of cake. Well maybe a very big piece of cake.

[HenryK]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with RED you will be able to store 2K or 1080p from a 4K source.

To me, that's the sweet spot because even if you drove 4 K footage from the camera, you'd most likely want to drive it down to 2K or 1080 anyway. Why not let the camera do it.

That is exactly what is so exciting about this camera besides price (we'll find out on Monday... I'm so excited and stressed about price... what if it's 90K???!!!!).

Being able to shoot 4K, use 35mm lenses and get 2K ready to edit portable is a pure dream come true. NOONE else is doing that!

Henry

[HenryK]

By the way, that's what you'd do in a DI environment with 35mm film.

Shoot 35mm, scan it at 2K, edit

Henry

[CamDiver]

Monitors.....don't forget the monitors suitable for field work.....no point having the camera and nothing to "see" with.....

I COULD potentially be interested to use this camera underwater.... Underwater housing manufacturers have been given the heads up?.....external monitors for the housing needs to be very well addressed....

Wanna see this thing perform underwater....

Great expectations....