acceptable HD formats for major networks?

[seanf]

I work for an independent documentary production company, and we're currently looking at upgrading to HD. The last few years we've done most of our shooting on the DVX, but we're beginning to run into problems with networks like Discovery that are trying to migrate completely to HD.

My question is: are there any producers/shooters out there that are familiar with the technical standards for HD at the big networks like Discovery and NatGeo? For example, do they differentiate between "true HD" formats and HDV? Would these new Sony and JVC cameras be sufficient, or should we hold out for DVCPRO-HD on the HVX?

Any insights or experiences are greatly appreciated.

[kai]

We do a lot of major network content and it's always been DVCPRO HD and HDCAM. But, i'm sure if your work has a high production value, is great material, and the deliverables are on one of the above tapes, they'd never know what it was originated on.

[Konrad]

This is a frequent topic you may want to do a search on Discovery

[pmark23]

We have been in discussions with Discovery and other large broadcasters and distributors for a big-budget documentary (we start shooting in June and they're footing a large part of the bill), and were told outright that HDV is unacceptable. HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD.

[mcgeedigital]

We have been in discussions with Discovery and other large broadcasters and distributors for a big-budget documentary (we start shooting in June and they're footing a large part of the bill), and were told outright that HDV is unacceptable. HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD.

Yup, I freelance edit for both Nat Geo and Discovery.

HDV is NOT accepted.

[Emanuel]

HDV is NOT accepted.OK but if they don't know the origin? If I have HDV footage but I will deliver a DVCPRO-HD master copy or a HDCAM tape :huh: or even other delivery format?


[And, of course, I'm not talking about exclusive stuff or, as above-mentioned, for sure, even in VHS they will accept! :cheesy:]

[Gibby]

I work for an independent documentary production company, and we're currently looking at upgrading to HD. The last few years we've done most of our shooting on the DVX, but we're beginning to run into problems with networks like Discovery that are trying to migrate completely to HD.

My question is: are there any producers/shooters out there that are familiar with the technical standards for HD at the big networks like Discovery and NatGeo? For example, do they differentiate between "true HD" formats and HDV? Would these new Sony and JVC cameras be sufficient, or should we hold out for DVCPRO-HD on the HVX?

Any insights or experiences are greatly appreciated.

Check this recent thread on that subject on DVX User that has 42 posts and recieved 2,547 views. Link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=38366&highlight=Discovery

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[Emanuel]

Gibby, let me tell you: this is not the first time that one tip from yours is very useful. As contributor of this community, Barry is not alone, you score too! Thanks!

[Gibby]

Always happy to help!

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[jcgardiner]

Not true about Discovery entirely...I worked on the Driver-X series for Discovery which is still airing on Monday nights and while we did use a bunch of HDCAM all the hometown packages are shot with the Sony HDV...Discovery understands that for a series such as this to use all HDCAM (some days there were at least 15 cameras going) would be rediculously expensive...the only issue was that while the on-board lipstick camera footage for the Discovery Channel was O.K. to use these shots had to be replaced and a slightly different edit was delivered for Discovery HD theater....So while I am sure Discovery has an official stand on HDV they will make exceptions depending on the nature of the content.

But having shot with that Sony HDV camera all I can say is I was not a fan...

[pmark23]

Discovery told us that anything shot on HDV will be thrown out. That wasn't just discovery either -- almost every distributor told us to use "real HD" or they wouldn't touch it.

My impression is that they shot a bunch of programmes on HDV, and got burned. Anyone know the inside story?

[Konrad]

They did not throw Mikey's Z1 footage away and OCC is one of their top shows. Spot was showing A1 footage that is going to Discovery. I'm sure it's a policy, just not enforced 100% of the time. If the content is wanted the networks will take cell phone footage and have.

[alisterchapman]

Discovery will and do accept HDV, normally only up to 25% of an HD production can be from HDV or SD. In theory the HVX in 1080i mode should be accepted. The problem with HDV is with the amount of compression used. Discovery (and others) are worried that when re-compressed into a 18mb (or smaller) HD data stream for broadcast that the already highly compressed HDV (25mb) material will show more artifacts than footage with a 185mb data rate (HDCAM). The HVX will have a 100mb data rate so should in theory be more robust. However like for like a 25mb long gop mpeg sequence is roughly the equivalent to a 60-70mb interfame sequence. HDV at 4:2:0 throws away large amounts of chroma information to cut down on bandwidth requirements as well, wheras DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2 so more bandwidth is needed in the first place. It has been my experience that HDV material shot side by side with 1080i DVCPRO HD footage, before any further image manipulation shows about the same level of noise and artifacts. The Varicam footage (720P) can be pushed harder in post, HDV luma can be push pretty hard but try doing anything with the chroma and it falls apart (even after transcoding to a higher bit rate). Much will depend on the quality of the internal codecs within the camera, this can make a big difference the final image quality.

At the moment HD is a premium service for which the likes of Discovery charge subscribers a premium rate, so it only follows that the comissioning editors and tech managers at Discovery should demand that programmes be made to the highest possible standards. As HD becomes more common place then I would expect more and more usage of HDV, HVX or whatever the current cheap flavour of the month is to become more common.

The BBC are starting tests of end to end HD production and transmission services here in the UK. Given that the BBC have recently purchased several hundred Sony Z1's I am sure that they will be testing to see how HDV performs when broadcast as HD (they are currently being used for SD factual and news programmes, replacing digibeat in many areas). I would love to see the results of those tests.

Anyway to end my rambling message, my gut feeling is that HVX footage will be better accepted than HDV, however I expect you would have to have a pretty compelling reason for not using HDCAM or some other full size HD format for Dicovery to agree to an entire programme shot with an HVX.