Analog Component HD

[Emanuel]

OK! I'm interested on HVX@uncompressed mode, specially, for 35mm film-out purposes. And what about this device?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=259904&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

[Jarred Land]

where are you piping this into? your gonna need a pretty fast drive array ina desktop system.. but it will work. You loose a bit during the DA -> AD process.. but it will still look very very good.

[Mr. Blonde]

So hold on, you're telling me that by shooting the component signal out from the cam, through this converter, then to a drive array will give you an uncompressed signal? what sort of desktop system has a hd-sdi input? And will it capture directly to the drive or will you still need to use an nle to capture the signal?

[Emanuel]

Well...follow the LINKs, please:

LINK (http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=40824) [Hardware]
LINK (http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=41106) [intro]

[Mr. Blonde]

In the field, this seems like an insane way to shoot, but for green screen work, this would be superb. Good find Emanuel :beer:

[Jarred Land]

my system i am typing on right now has HD-SDI inputs in.

The capture card can do a capture via a standalone program, or with integration of any of the Major NLE.. Sony Vegas comes with Decklink card support built right in.

[Mr. Blonde]

What would the file be captured as? What format I mean.

[Jarred Land]

4:4:4 10 bit RGB HD if you really want.. in a AVI or Quicktime wrapper. or Targa or BMP sequences.

[evinsky]

I'm not even sure that AJA thing is capable of dual link SDI at 4:4:4 but even if it is then getting that to your computer is the easy part. It's creating a drive array fast enough to handle that data stream that's gonna get you. You need something like 350MB/s to handle uncompressed HD like that. So you're talking minimum a 4 channel Sata raid and even then it's gonna fill up so fast you'll barely have time to press esc. before the thing fills up. It's not impossible but very expensive and probably not worth the quality difference from a 1/3" chip. This is great for Lucas or Rodriguez who can afford the systems designed for this kind of throughput but I doubt there is a huge difference from 4:2:2 DVC-pro HD for most projections even theatrical ones..

[Emanuel]

You need something like 350MB/s to handle uncompressed HD like that. They are saying it, it's in russian...but they are saying it!

http://www.ctt.ru/products/hd/flash_dvr/

...well, 330MB/sec speed, at least.

What do you say?!...

[evinsky]

I'm sorry there is no way that a single drive can handle that data rate. The only way that a drive that size could is if it were actually four 7200rpm laptop drives raided into that case. But you would need to cram a Raid controller, dual link HD-SDI and file transcoder into it as well. Also the largest 7200rpm laptop drive is 100GB so assuming you had a 330MB/s data stream you would get a whopping 6.6 minutes of uncompressed recording on it. And it's how much?

[Xenophon]

http://www.sonnettech.com/publicfiles/pdfs/eSATA_benchmarks.pdf

[Jarred Land]

4 laptop drives wont work.. 4 3.5" SATA on a raid on a seperate bus just barely works.

[Konrad]

Who in the real world is capturing and working with uncompressed files on big projects? Even Starwars 2 & 3 were captured with some compression.

[evinsky]

That's my point.

[Emanuel]

For 2/3 CCDs cams, yes...

...but even the third episode was shot @HDCAM SR - 4:2:2 for 440 megabits or 4:4:4 for the double 880...

[Emanuel]

Concerning the HD-SDI FLASH-RAM Recorder (discussion in neighbour thread), I sent an e-mail to Alexander Kitaev and I received a nice answer that updates and confirms the great compatibility of this device, that is, it works as PORTABLE HD recorder:

Codecs for Flash Recorder will be available some later as free upgrade (now they are testing).

JPEG codec: up to 30min with 1:10 compression.

They are planning to show in 2006 their HD products on NAB and CineGear.

They also updates their website page as you can follow here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=375119#post375119

[fiercecurry]

What are the specs on the analog component HD out? 10 bit, 8 bit? 4:2:2 or 4:4:4?

Whats the point of converting an inferior signal to a superior one that will not give you any gain in image quality? I understand wanting to capture through SDI, but if your original source is not of the same quality, what is the point? Your just requiring more bandwith and storage space for an image that is no different than what is captured on the P2?

Please prove me wrong.

[Barry_Green]

I don't think anyone's tested what comes out of the analog ports; and analog doesn't have "bits" or "4:x:x" or anything like that. I would guess that the quality would be comparable to 8-bit 4:2:2.

Even the Canon's HD-SDI output is 8-bit 4:2:2 (carried within a 10-bit stream, but only 8 active bits of info).

The analog outputs avoid the compression stage. That's the whole point.

[fiercecurry]

If they avoid the compression stage, (8 bit 4:2:2) what is the equivalent, being that it is analog and not even SDI?

If it was HD-SDI like the Canon's
there could be some advantage, but being analog, i dont see any. In actuality the fact that it is analog (and not SDI) already gives you a compression that cancels itself out
over any bypassing of the DVCOPRO codec based compression. Which I dont think it would anyway.

I think its really meant for hooking up to HD field monitors, but if some people want to believe its some secret tap into uncompressed HD, the equivalent to something like a Dalsa or a Viper or the Arri D20, than let them dream.

[Stevet]

I think its really meant for hooking up to HD field monitors, but if some people want to believe its some secret tap into uncompressed HD, the equivalent to something like a Dalsa or a Viper or the Arri D20, than let them dream.


??

Let's not forget all CCD sampling is an analog process.

Why is it that hard of a stretch to think you can't use the component out to SDI converter? This will bypass the compression codecs.

Not that I would do this due to the EXTREME processing and memory requirements. :)

[Barry_Green]

Don't know where you're coming from, fiercecurry.

The analog output is uncompressed, in that it has not been compressed. The signal comes off of the DSP and it goes to two different places: the compression engine, for writing out to the cards/firewire, or to the analog ports.

It's the same capability that the Z1, FX1, and HD100 offer.

It's the same basic thing as the Canon's HD-SDI, except that HD-SDI keeps it in the digital domain. But it's taken from the same point in time. On all other than XLH1 cams, it gets converted to analog. On the XLH1, it stays digital. But it's uncompressed no matter how you slice it.

[fiercecurry]

ok, i think i understand what you are saying, it bypasses the codec compression engine, and out to the analog component output directly. Once it goes via the analog, it is uncompressed. However, an analog component output is compressed compared to an SDI output.

What is your definition of HD uncompressed?

HD uncompressed is 12bit 4:4:4.

Is this the signal that the HVX is outputing?

If it is, thats fantastic!

[fiercecurry]

I really am curious about the analog output capabilities of the HVX, so, in plain English, will this camera give me the same signal quality via its analog component out, that a Viper or Dalsa or Arri D20 would give?

Will it offer ANY IMPROVEMENT in image quality over the DVCPRO HD codec, if i choose to capture with a NLE codec like the ones by Blackmagic that is 12 bit 4:4:4 when capturing through a SDI capture card and a fast disk array?

Thanks.

[Barry_Green]

12-bit 4:4:4? Yowza. That takes dual-link HD-SDI to output that.

Analog is not "compressed". It's analog. Compression is -- well, it's compression. Analog isn't compressed.

Think of it in terms of HDV -- with HDV you sidestep the MPEG compression engine -- and as such, the analog outputs of HDV cameras look substantially superior to the compressed output. There's no motion artifacting, no mosquito noise, no quantization errors... it looks like real HD.

With DVCPRO-HD the difference isn't quite as significant because the compression isn't as severe. DVCPRO-HD retains the 4:2:2 color sampling, HDV doesn't -- so an HDV cam's uncompressed analog signal will look substantially better, as compared to its HDV compressed signal, than a DVCPRO-HD cam's uncompressed analog will look as compared to its DVCPRO-HD compressed signal.

But the point is -- it's taking the signal at the cleanest point, just right after the DSP, and outputting it. It is not in its original form, no -- its original form is whatever the DSP outputs -- 4:2:2 14-bit, presumably. That gets converted to analog, or in the case of the Canon it gets converted to an 8-bit HD-SDI signal.

Will uncompressed analog from an HDV camera look better than the HDV output? Obviously, substantially, yes.

Will uncompressed analog from a DVCPRO-HD camera look better than the DVCPRO-HD output? Probably some, but not a whole heck of a lot. It won't have any mosquito noise, that's for sure -- but there may be other noise introduced in the very conversion to analog.

[fiercecurry]

thank you, now I understand.

[Illya Friedman]

We did uncompressed capture via a cobalt version of the AJA box into a Kona card as a back up for our HVX shoot. It didn't look really different to me, but I didn't study it critically.

If you are planning on this workflow for 35mm film-out I don't think that the meta data/flagged 24p/pa frames exist via the RGB output. You'll need to figure that part out before mastering, and may complicate your plight somewhat.

I.

[toke lahti]

Analog isn't compressed.

Well, if it is 4:2:2 that is also sort of compression. Chroma channels get only half the bandwidth of luma channel. And the whole historical notation 4:2:2 comes from analog world...

YCbCr-signal is usually never 4:4:4. All equipment I've heard that uses 4:4:4 carries data in RGB-format.

[will_griffith]

Actually the HD10A is unnecessary if you buy a AJA Kona LH or any other
card which has HD component analog capture. You will need a xserve raid,
huge array or other sata, fiber array, etc. which is capable of 200mbs sustained
right speed to do uncompressed 4:2:2. I don't think 4:4:4 will yield any better
results with this camera given the chip size and noise level.

The HVX could be a great effects camera if used in a studio setting in this case.
You can choose the format to capture to, whether it be 10bit uncompressed
or 75% PhotoJPEG, which are both much better than DVCPROHD.

There is no portable capture solution other than the Viper Venom flash array or
maybe a few other systems which cost like 10 times the HVX itself.

[Emanuel]

There is no portable capture solution other than the Viper Venom flash array or
maybe a few other systems which cost like 10 times the HVX itself.Not at all...follow it:

LINK:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=40824 [HD-SDI Flash-RAM Recorder]

Other LINKS:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=41106 [introduction]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=375208#post375208 [JPEG2000@HVX]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=40603&page=9 [other thread link]

[will_griffith]

oh...did I say 10 times as expensive?? :)
I of course meant "more than the cost of the camera itself!"

At least the Russian recorder is portable. Has it actually been used on this
continent though? Does it really exist?

Also...you will need to buy the HD>HDSDI converter as well. Then figure out
where to record your audio.

[Emanuel]

At least the Russian recorder is portable. Has it actually been used on this
continent though? Does it really exist?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showpost.php?p=375119&postcount=20

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=41226

Then figure out
where to record your audio.Maybe through the uncompressed 4 channels of the HVX itself. I just don't know if it works as recordable device at same time...who knows?...Barry are you there?

[will_griffith]

I don't see where it records audio. and even if it did it would be SDI and require a
muxer to combine the video and audio in the SDI signal, which is another 1k.
Made for use with sync sound like a dat or other I guess.

[Emanuel]

As I said, why not the camera itself for the sound record ?...

[will_griffith]

Or a hack to record audio only to P2?
That would be cool.
(1) 2gb would be about 24hr of 2ch PCM...right?

[Emanuel]

Not only audio...