First published CC + grading desert clip grabs (simple sample) [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Emanuel

12-10-2005, 03:35 PM

Thanks Jarred (and Barry) for the positive answer to my request.

A sub-forum like this will be very useful to test the HVX properties in order a post production work or even as best deal indie filmmaking camcorder.

Here it is a simple sample of the first HVX footage.

Two post production possibilities: color correcting or grading?

original
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34223494724.jpg

A) Color Correction

CC
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34300034511.jpg

original
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34223173512.jpg

B) Grading

less natural
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34223373060.jpg

less synthetic
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34315253271.jpg

Any thoughts?

J.R. Hudson

12-10-2005, 03:41 PM

Really nice; my turn, coming up!

mikkowilson

12-10-2005, 03:42 PM

Those look prety good Emanuel :)

.. Those are from the WMVHD (compressed) framegrabs, right?

- Mikko

Emanuel

12-10-2005, 03:45 PM

From your mirror, yes Mikko! (Thanks!) :)

<PS> From TIFF -> JPEG@Ulead PhotoImpact

J.R. Hudson

12-10-2005, 04:24 PM

The real trick is keeping the newspaper from blowing out when adjusting contrast

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5430/manreading4ri.jpg

mikkowilson

12-10-2005, 04:28 PM

Nice.

Emanuel

12-10-2005, 04:34 PM

:thumbsup:

MiniMan

12-10-2005, 04:36 PM

And now, the little guy has to give some grabs a try:)

Some different looks here, all done in Vegas 6.0 without plugins or whatsoever.

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_5.jpg

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_4.jpg

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_3.jpg

mikkowilson

12-10-2005, 04:38 PM

Oh I like the look in the last one! :)

Emanuel

12-10-2005, 04:40 PM

Some different looks here, all done (...) without plugins or whatsoever.The same before.

And now, the little guy has to give some grabs a try:)Good work.

MiniMan

12-10-2005, 04:41 PM

Simply can't wait for the HVX to drop 2/3 of its price so I can afford it:cheesy:

BTW, is it because of the downrezzing that the last one looks waay to "sharp"? Just couldn't get that thing to look properly soft:undecided

evinsky

12-10-2005, 05:33 PM

Anyone have Magic Bullet. I'd like to see a light white frost filter.

Neopics

12-10-2005, 05:50 PM

Hmmm...I guess it's just me, but I prefer the originals right from the camera. I know the "bleach bypass" and higher contrast looks are hot these days, but I'm not really a fan of them.

mynamesbuck

12-10-2005, 05:55 PM

Yeah. I love the look of the last one. Very very film like. I cant wait to get this camera.

J.R. Hudson

12-10-2005, 05:58 PM

Anyone have Magic Bullet. I'd like to see a light white frost filter.

I only have White Diffussion 5.0; will that do?

insanityfw

12-10-2005, 06:03 PM

Wow, thanks guys. this just keeps getting better.

I have magic bullet, but I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know how to use it...Ok, I'll say it anyway...I don't know how to use it. :)

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 06:26 PM

Here's my contribution using Magic Bullet 2.0 looks in AE. Some are custom settings:

http://tinyurl.com/99y8z

http://tinyurl.com/8rery

http://tinyurl.com/bgmxs

http://tinyurl.com/cem2r

http://tinyurl.com/9bzx7

http://tinyurl.com/dz4mk

angrynerdrock07

12-10-2005, 06:46 PM

Wow. I love the second and fourth ones.

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 07:15 PM

Yep, Hollywood's in trouble :thumbsup:

harlan

12-10-2005, 07:47 PM

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 07:57 PM

3 of those are Magic Bullet presets. 3 of those are not. Which are which? :huh:

The only problem with the Magic Bullet looks is that they're instantly recognizable as Magic Bullet looks. Try grading by hand prior to tossing an MB look on the image, or delve into the settings of the MB plugin.

Sorry if that sounded rude... I don't mean it that way, I'm just saying that you'll accomplish more by grading an image using your own personal "style" rather than a preset from a plugin.

Maybe you missed the first line of my original post where I said some of them were custom settings?
But why don't you show us what you mean? If you say you can make it look better, I know I would like to learn.

:)

Emanuel

12-10-2005, 08:22 PM

3rd, 4th and 5th are not, it's my guess. Am I right or wrong?

soarprod

12-10-2005, 09:56 PM

Here are mine:

http://www.ochauntedhouse.com/soarprod/film/1.jpg

http://www.ochauntedhouse.com/soarprod/film/2.jpg

http://www.ochauntedhouse.com/soarprod/film/3.jpg

This is all for fun since we dont have the original footage and we are not doing it in 10 bit :)

harlan

12-10-2005, 09:58 PM

Maybe you missed the first line of my original post where I said some of them were custom settings?
But why don't you show us what you mean? If you say you can make it look better, I know I would like to learn.

:)

I wasn't trying to challenge you or anything, your clips look fine, but they clearly look like MB clips. Yes, I did miss the part about the custom settings, but even so, my very first thought when I looked at the clip was "MB". I don't mean that offensively, I would just rather look at your clips and say "holy sh!t, those are clearly some of ProjX clips, that guy can kick some color correctin a$$". In other words, I'd much rather see YOUR work rather than MB's work. If that makes sense.

I'd be happy to do a little CC and post an image or two; if someone could point me to some directions on posting images here. I'm not a pro Colorist or anything, but I'll give it a go.

.

soarprod

12-10-2005, 10:01 PM

harlan,

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode

harlan

12-10-2005, 10:08 PM

Awesome!! Thanks Soar, I'll dig in and color me up some images to post. ;)

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 10:45 PM

Soar, those look really nice. I especially like the first with the Iroc. :thumbsup:

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 10:46 PM

I wasn't trying to challenge you or anything, your clips look fine, but they clearly look like MB clips. Yes, I did miss the part about the custom settings, but even so, my very first thought when I looked at the clip was "MB". I don't mean that offensively, I would just rather look at your clips and say "holy sh!t, those are clearly some of ProjX clips, that guy can kick some color correctin a$$". In other words, I'd much rather see YOUR work rather than MB's work. If that makes sense.

Hey Harlan,

I think you took my post the wrong way. I just want to be able to CC better so if you have techniques that may improve on what I've done, I'm all for it. I'd just like to see them as decribing them doesn't help me much. That's all. :thumbsup:

ProjX v2.0

12-10-2005, 10:49 PM

3rd, 4th and 5th are not, it's my guess. Am I right or wrong?

Wrong, Emanuel! :cheesy:

In fact, those 3 you mentioned are the MB Presets.

:beer:

harlan

12-10-2005, 10:50 PM

Hey Harlan,

I think you took my post the wrong way. I just want to be able to CC better so if you have techniques that may improve on what I've done, I'm all for it. I'd just like to see them as decribing them doesn't help me much. That's all. :thumbsup:

Oh cool, I'm sorry. I just didn't want you to think I was degrading your work or anything; sometimes I feel that the way I say things may come across as rude so I always like to try and clarify. My apologies for the confusion.

I'm gonna dick around with some and see if I can't come up a few good looks to post and the steps I took to get there.

Angrius

12-10-2005, 11:12 PM

No Magic Bullet is boring as hell. The presets should be used as a last resort. It's like using an "old film look" plugin too much.

soarprod

12-10-2005, 11:29 PM

Soar, those look really nice. I especially like the first with the Iroc. :thumbsup:

Hey thanks, the best CC's (unless you are going for an effect) are done with the "less is more philosophy." I took the simple approach since these are pix and not movies - photoshop auto color, then auto levels, then I tweak from there - usually pulling back from what the auto's did - In certain shots, pumping the color can really help - then I always add a little more black in the levels control to enrich the blacks. Then I have a cold glass of :beer:

Shaw

12-10-2005, 11:46 PM

the best CC's (unless you are going for an effect) are done with the "less is more philosophy."

Couldn't agree with that statement more!

I'm really liking your second image. Nice balance to it.

Emanuel

12-11-2005, 12:09 AM

Wrong, Emanuel! :cheesy:

In fact, those 3 you mentioned are the MB Presets.

:beer::laugh: :beer:...:laugh: That's why before your post (I had a post prepared to) and after your claim - I'm sorry but I did miss the part about the custom settings, too! - I stopped and I tried to catch the challenge.

So, I don't work with MB. And after this test, I can say that I'm impressed.

I think figure out very well the meaning of harlan's statement when he says: «The only problem with the Magic Bullet looks is that they're instantly recognizable as Magic Bullet looks». When I confirmed the MiniMan's concern «without plugins or whatsoever» that's why...

...both directions are good points to discuss. As well the evinsky's MB request. [BTW, anyone with Magic Bullet can show the «light white frost filter» that evinsky mentioned?]

Despite the soarprod's - a different setting that maybe I can prefer (pending the narrative request) - let's see the grading differences from a direct comparative? And what about a pool, guys?

grading by Magic Bullet
http://tinyurl.com/9bzx7

grading by hand or will it be better to say by eye? :)
http://x12.putfile.com/12/34315253271.jpg

soarprod

12-11-2005, 12:27 AM

Pretty good emanuel - the second one is better, but (this is my opinion) - too much green in both. There is also a little blue cast - look at the dark letters of the NEWS in the newspaper - you can see the black looks more like a dark blue. Also, the chair doesnt look as brown as say my second pic. The right wall behind him is more green then white. Remember, calibration is the key - my monitor is calibrated for Photoshop and I have a calibrated production monitor. For all I know, it may look right on your setup.

Rich Lee

12-11-2005, 12:37 AM

hmm....

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5278/hvx108024pdemofootagecomp10054.jpg

OLBoy

12-11-2005, 12:44 AM

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8159/18rj1.jpg

harlan

12-11-2005, 12:51 AM

Quick test to see how to upload... I'll try to make some better images a little later. You guys are looking good. BTW this image, provided it works, was just a levels tweak on an adjustment layer in AFX:

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8356/imagetest3ie.jpg

.

harlan

12-11-2005, 12:52 AM

hey... it worked. weeeee.... I'll be posting some mad images now!!! ;)

soarprod

12-11-2005, 12:57 AM

MAD I say!

Emanuel

12-11-2005, 12:58 AM

Pretty good emanuel - the second one is better, but (this is my opinion) - too much green in both.Yup, you're right. That's why I prefer yours.

Remember, calibration is the key - my monitor is calibrated for Photoshop and I have a calibrated production monitor. For all I know, it may look right on your setup.But maybe, you're all right 'cause I thought the same and it will be a real concern when we will not (just) play.

BTW, concerning the appropriate use of color, I tried to get the great color eye of the actor in order to adequate his smile (following the dramatic moment for reasons of dramaturgy). For instance, that's why perhaps Rich Lee had choose other frame to grading. A different drama setting, indeed! Look the eyes expression, perfect with that color but not with ours.

Regarding OLBoy (your avatar reminds me Robert Smith - The Cure :thumbsup:), the green is (more) there, I'd say less synthetic, less HD, less CineAlta setting, but also, not necessary cinematic, however more filmic.

Emanuel

12-11-2005, 01:02 AM

harlan, to me you're winning! Are you a colorist? If you are, I'd like hire you for my next production(ss!). I'm not joking...give me your profile (by private message if you pleased). Thanks.

<PS> It's also a question of eye, not so tech issues. But of course, this knowledge is important, too! I'd like to know how you achieve that. That's the way I like it!...well, I'd say the appropriate setting for that occasion; that one that the dramatic moment asks. Of course, from the narrative details that we have; the image itself and not from a script that we don't have. I can tell you that I, as teacher where I have my classes, I encourage - all the apprentices that we are - to these approaches. Like that ones I'm trying to do here. In order TO THINK the image, the cinema, whatever...that it is not only technology. Thank God!

Gordon JL

12-11-2005, 01:58 AM

harlan

12-11-2005, 02:41 AM

absolutely. my first impression of the images, before I'd read the thread, was that there was some Magic Bullet going on.

Now, there's nothing wrong with Magic Bullet at all. It's a great tool. The problem is the way it's used, and it being overused (especially the built-in looks). Although some look at it like it was, Magic Bullet really isn't a color correcting tool. It's designed to impart specific looks on your video (in addition to deinterlacing, etc..).

In order to best use Magic Bullet, you should use it in addition to standard CC tools and methods. Don't rely on it exclusively, and don't overuse it. There's an art to CC and Grading which involves so much more than dropping a plug-in on your timeline. A good colorist is just as much an artist as a director or an editor is, he knows all of the technical aspects which make up an image and how to manipulate them.

A variety of the Looks included with Magic Bullet are based on trying to simulate the look a colorist achieved through proper CC & Grading on a film. Now, why would they want to simulate those looks? Because they're memorable and instantly recoginzable as an artistic achievement in the manipulation of an image.

The reason I'm saying not to rely so much on Magic Bullet is because I'd much rather see Magic Bullet add looks based on the brilliant grading job YOU did on YOUR picture.

Again, I think Magic Bullet is great. It definitely has it's place in my toolbox. I don't know, use it all the time if you like, just make the image yours, you know. It's like fashion, you can be the cooolest person on the planet wearing nothing but a wife-beater and boxer shorts, if you "OWN" the look. Does that make sense? It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.

harlan

12-11-2005, 02:46 AM

I haven't had a chance yet to CC some more of that HVX footage, but I will say that the HVX footage holds up incredibly well in post.

Even though the footage we're playing with has been recompressed beyond the initial DVCPRO-HD compression, it still has a remarkable level of flexibility.

MiniMan

12-11-2005, 03:29 AM

Just have to try some more:cheesy:

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_6.jpg

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_7.jpg

http://tore.thedigitalline.com/hvx200_8.jpg

ProjX v2.0

12-11-2005, 03:31 AM

Wow, these pics are getting better and better.

Rich, what did you do to achieve that look? It's very music videoish and I love that. Please break it down.

And does anybody know this guy in the pic we're all cc'ing? He's becoming an internet celebrity as his mug seems to be on many people's computers at the moment. :thumbsup:

J.R. Hudson

12-11-2005, 03:34 AM

And who can name that chord?

ProjX v2.0

12-11-2005, 03:49 AM

It's been awhile but I'm gonna guess G

J.R. Hudson

12-11-2005, 03:55 AM

Boo ya!

Ralph Oshiro

12-11-2005, 04:02 AM

It's like fashion, you can be the cooolest person on the planet wearing nothing but a wife-beater and boxer shorts, if you "OWN" the look. Does that make sense? It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.Harlan, that's a great analogy and makes perfect sense to me. I'm real stupid at color grading--I have no idea what I'm doing. I just downloaded the free Magic Bullet library from Adobe and bought the $49 preset library. I like it! But I know what you mean.

Rich Lee

12-11-2005, 04:05 AM

Rich, what did you do to achieve that look? It's very music videoish and I love that. Please break it down.

i used synthetic aperature color finesse for after effects...its a CC plugin. its awesome...

did some hue offset...adjust shadows, midtones, and highlights. messed with levels...and screwed with luma range.

i tend to like things contrasty and desaturated with a hue thats shifted warm or cool.

uh...trying to do a screen grab of the program but its being a little bastad...will upload later if i can get it to work....

Derrick_SA

12-11-2005, 07:46 AM

Hi there,

John don't you please wan't to give us an idea on how you got to your final version CC on page one of this thread? (eg. not blowing out the newspaper, etc...)

Thanks,
Derrick

Xenophon

12-11-2005, 09:06 AM

The usual brass tones that bore everyone to death:)

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/4485/cc13dx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

MiniMan

12-11-2005, 09:39 AM

Looks brilliant to me!

Shaw

12-11-2005, 10:00 AM

My only real crit on that one xenophon is the lost eye color. Sort of kills the image IMO. Otherwise it's a good 'basic' look :)

Xenophon

12-11-2005, 10:38 AM

There is no color in the eye in this light. It's not there and it shouldn't naturally be there so it is not lost. The guy is looking down, there are no reflections on the eye and it comes down as a dark tone that naturally is unsaturated. Grey that is. Even if you saturate both green and blue to the max, the letter on the paper and the leaves outside will both clip and there will still be no color in the eye:)

This eye color does not really exist. It is formed by light and transparency of the eye. Black and brown eyes are different but those also lose their saturation in low light like all things in nature.

There are moments in which the guy looks up, then the eyes get reflections and light and saturate. If you CC to get saturation in the eye down position (which is impossible anyway) you have completely destroyed every single other position in the shot and have created problems in matching color with other shots of the same actor in the same scene. Starting with pure grey and going for perl color will also start to put saturation in dark areas, like the wall on the right and fluorecent colors in other parts of the scene which will also look unnatural in an MTV way.

Here is a detail from this frame and from one of the following frames pre and after a saturation increase and then, after reducing saturation in reds. Can you see blue color in the left coloumn?

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/8363/cc20en.th.jpg (http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cc20en.jpg)

Color correction is not as simple as it looks:)

Mediacre

12-11-2005, 01:40 PM

The only problem with the Magic Bullet looks is that they're instantly recognizable as Magic Bullet looks. Try grading by hand prior to tossing an MB look on the image, or delve into the settings of the MB plugin.

Sorry if that sounded rude... I don't mean it that way, I'm just saying that you'll accomplish more by grading an image using your own personal "style" rather than a preset from a plugin.

other than that... looks nice, but it just looks like Magic Bullet. :)

.
I'm sorry if "I" sound rude, but that's a bunch of BS. Nobody in an audience will stop and point" Oh no, they used MB to color correct it. It's so recognizable"
Besides, I don't know if you are aware of that, but MB pre-settings was inspired by the most used looks in Hollywood. Neo look is from the Matrix and many other that used that look after,. People will not say your film used MB if you use Neo. They will say it looks like the Matrix.

monte

12-11-2005, 02:33 PM

Vegas CC

1
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/61/monte19mk.png (http://imageshack.us)
2
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5804/monte14te.png (http://imageshack.us)
3
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/5338/monte14zx.png

edit - woah imageshack resized 1... wierd

harlan

12-11-2005, 03:12 PM

I'm sorry if "I" sound rude, but that's a bunch of BS. Nobody in an audience will stop and point" Oh no, they used MB to color correct it. It's so recognizable"

Nor did I say they would. As an industry peer I would immediately recoginze the work as MB. An audience will instead say "oh, that looked like the matrix". Either way you look at it, your work is being 'recognized' as someone elses. Personally, I'd rather create innovative work instantly recognizable on its own, rather than imitative work recognizable as the "movie that looked like that other movie".

Besides, I don't know if you are aware of that, but MB pre-settings was inspired by the most used looks in Hollywood. Neo look is from the Matrix and many other that used that look after,. People will not say your film used MB if you use Neo. They will say it looks like the Matrix.

Ummm... you must not have actually read my post, as you basically just said everything that I dedicated an entire paragraph to. In fact, here's a repost:

A variety of the Looks included with Magic Bullet are based on trying to simulate the look a colorist achieved through proper CC & Grading on a film. Now, why would they want to simulate those looks? Because they're memorable and instantly recoginzable as an artistic achievement in the manipulation of an image.

The reason I'm saying not to rely so much on Magic Bullet is because I'd much rather see Magic Bullet add looks based on the brilliant grading job YOU did on YOUR picture.

I guess we're from two different points of view, but I'd much rather be the guy "creating" the look rather than "immitating" a look. That's why MB adds those looks based on films, because some colorist innovated and created something unique. If you'd rather imitate, then by all means, go ahead. I'm certainly not going to try to stop you; but I'll try to talk you into being more innovative by not relying on a specific plugin. I have nothing against MB, as I've said numerous times in this thread already, but if you're going to use it, at least USE it and make something unique and your own.

Now... go piss up someone elses rope, as I'm just trying to be insightful. :engel017:

PS - before anyone takes that the wrong way; as in 99.99999% of my posts I'm being somewhat tongue in cheek (hence the little angel). :)

ciao,

harlan

12-11-2005, 03:15 PM

Harlan, that's a great analogy and makes perfect sense to me. I'm real stupid at color grading--I have no idea what I'm doing. I just downloaded the free Magic Bullet library from Adobe and bought the $49 preset library. I like it! But I know what you mean.

Cooool... I'm glad someone understood what the hell I was on about last night. :)

Xenophon

12-11-2005, 06:53 PM

I agree with Harlan in most things.

If you do not use a professional for grading, try to stick to neutral tonality and actually doing CC. Correct video color problems due to lighting and extreme high and low key images. Keep saturation to medium levels. You need to understand psychology of color and image key before jumping to extreme grading, especially if you use presets off a plugin. Your teen comedy will not work with deep green tint and low key just because you liked that in some shots of a dark scifi film. Most cinema masterpieces were graded totally neutral, so your film does not depend on heavy artistic use of grading. Keep it safe till you get a grip of the process.

Low budget european and Japanese films especially, seam to monotonously use the same boring grading gimmicks, usually out of context. If you do not know what your grading adds, perhaps you shouldn't do it at all. We have seen enough unhealthy green hues already:)

Emanuel

12-11-2005, 07:03 PM

. :thumbup: Xenophon I like your speech!...and really european despite your low budget european quote that I well figure out.

υποδοχή!

You're welcome here!

jazzx

12-12-2005, 05:52 AM

υποδοχή!

Well It's actually: Καλως ήλθες

:)

Emanuel

12-12-2005, 07:20 AM

Well It's actually: Καλως ήλθες

:)Sorry, I'm lost in translation!

skettalee

12-12-2005, 07:36 AM

Simply beautiful man! I love it!

SergejIvanovits

12-12-2005, 08:29 AM

It's been awhile but I'm gonna guess GYes it should be a G but it isn't. It is a G-A-E-G-D-G = Em7/4 but depends on how you play it and what the bass line is.

Jay Jay

12-13-2005, 01:27 AM

the last one is amazing

JitCam

12-14-2005, 07:23 AM

hey everyone, found this site by chance on my quest for searching for info on the dvx-100 and hvx-200. Im an amatuer film maker from greece, well actually im greek-american, but anyways i was considering upgrading my miniDV cam for a dvx100 until i got a glimps of the hvx 200, i definately think it is worth it in the end, considering also the p2 will definately go down in price eventually. Anyway i have a site also with some colorised samples on my sony mini-dv its: http://digitalvillage2005.tripod.com/colorizing.htm

those stills from the hvx 200 are really crisp and nice, and nice colorizing by the way.

Young-H._Lee

12-15-2005, 10:07 PM

geez this HD is rocking my socks

mcgeedigital

12-17-2005, 07:47 PM

The real trick is keeping the newspaper from blowing out when adjusting contrast

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5430/manreading4ri.jpg

Nice job John, what was your process for that?

mrroper

12-21-2005, 12:21 AM

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~matt_porter/small%20face.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~matt_porter/small guitar.jpg

MiniMan

12-24-2005, 04:35 PM

nice!

PaPa

12-24-2005, 08:28 PM