MXF files, platforms and editing oh my [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

smelni

12-09-2005, 08:30 AM

Having been following these boards tightly for the past couple days I have been seeing reports that there are different versions of an MXF file, some work on PC some on MAC - different codecs for the dvc formats etc, etc.

I am sure I am just getting it all mixed up and it is much simpler. Can anyone clarify the whole situation.

My situation is a PC with 3GZ processor , 2 gigs ram and avid - can I view mxf files,how do i do that. And can i play them back in HD?

and can we get a thread going really getting this MXF stuff all ironed out.

thanks

alpi69

12-09-2005, 08:41 AM

you know what: i don´t even wanna know. I simply want the NLE (Liquid in my case) to allow me to drag the mxf file that is on the P2 card into my library and play it just like DV. how they make it happen I don´t care.

If you have XPressProHD then you can do just that I think: drag it in and edit away.....

HVXguy

12-09-2005, 08:43 AM

I agree. I have been following along with trying to figure out the best editing solution for months. PC will have more editing options than MAC. We know the MAC and FCP have a leg up on everyone. I saw a MATROX demo of AXIO. That seemed to have a lot of power but nowhere to be found around an HGX200. Was the Matrox AXIO at all seen at DV Expo?? Did the HVX200 steal the show??

esperman

12-09-2005, 08:52 AM

By early 2006, any serious edit software (other than VEGAS for obvious reason) will be able to support MFX ingestion.....and since most of you will prob stream to a HD..then all you'll need is the codec itself.....and thats already a video standard anyway for AVID, FC and many others.

soarprod

12-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Edius will be supporting the HVX in about a month - the crazy expensive bundle they currently have is going to be repackaged. <- from the Canopus rep yesterday.

doccutter

12-09-2005, 10:12 AM

esperman

12-09-2005, 10:17 AM

Damnit, my browser just ate my last post. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew the specs necessary to edit DVCPro HD in FCP. I've edited my last two docs on a 1.5GHz powerbook, which made for some amazing possiblities in field editing. Will I have to budget for a quad? Also, will the DVCProHD play from the timeline thru the HVX for monitoring? I don't want to have to downconvert to edit in the field.

any G5 or any newer powerbook with 7200 rpm drive will work (or external drive).
You don't need a quad. I have cut native DVCPRO-HD on a single 1.8 G5.

Footage will NOT play back from computer through firewire into camera for viewing.
Jan had told me that wasn't going to happen....stream is one way only out camera.

doccutter

12-09-2005, 10:22 AM

Excellent. Thank you esperman. How do you monitor the footage? I've been thinking about picking up one of the 24" dells once the price drops again, but if the camera can't stream out, how can I monitor, color correct, etc? My pbook chokes on 1080 footage, but I think that's partially because it's having to playback an image greater than the size of the display. Are FCP people using the cinema preview for a second monitor, or is there some other technique?

nateweaver

12-09-2005, 10:48 AM

Are FCP people using the cinema preview for a second monitor, or is there some other technique?

Digital Cinema Preview is only good for just seeing a bigger image. It's not accurate enough color-wise for color work. In fact, it's dodgy for a lot of purposes, but it's better than just looking at a tiny window on your main FCP monitor.

if you want a real calibrated component out, you'll have to get an HD Kona or Blackmagic card. The cheapest, most accurate setup would be something like a Blackmagic HD Pro single link card for $995, then either a used/b-stock Sony 14L5 monitor for around $1600 or what I have, a Sony PVM-14M8U. Either way you're going to spend around $2000-2500 to get accurate HD monitoring.

jessecoane

12-09-2005, 10:57 AM

If its just for monitoring would i be fine with the Black Magic HD (non Pro) for $595.

What im considering is the Black Magic card and the HD link and an apple 23" display. Im planning on mostly doing 720p.

Any suggestions?

jesse

esperman

12-09-2005, 11:06 AM

For field monitoring use the camera D4 component out to a good HD monitor. That will save you color correcting time in the edit, when you're using a DVI monitor to view the footage from final cut pro.

There is no way to hook up a capture card to your powerbook.

nateweaver

12-09-2005, 11:13 AM

Right. You can get the cheaper Blackmagic card ONLY if what you're connecting to has HD-SDI input. The HDLink does...but broadcast HD CRTs only have this at a $2000 premium.

Remember that the HDLink/Cinema Display route still doesn't give you color good enough to CC with. It's better than a lot of options, but for the same money you can get a CRT if you're careful shopping.

23" Cinema Display=$1100
HDLink=$600
BM Card=$600

Everybody's under the impression you can't buy a Sony pro HD CRT for less than $3000-$4000...truth is you can have one for $1500-$1000 if you know where to look, and know what you're looking for.

esperman

12-09-2005, 11:17 AM

Yup, I agree Nate.

As for field monitoring...rent a good HD crt or a panny 17" lcd to monitor your footage directly from the camera. Focus and image control will require this, especially if your new to HD. If you do this in the field, it will make your edit go more smoothly, especially if your going to connect a DVI monitor to your mac video card, and then calibrate it for video to edit on.

insanityfw

12-09-2005, 11:24 AM

I don't mean to highjack, but do I have to have the HD link if I'm running two Dell 24 HD's and a Blackmagic Decklink HD already? I have checked the site, but am still confused if I really need it. Is it more about accurate color correction than anything else.

thanks

jessecoane

12-09-2005, 11:31 AM

Everybody's under the impression you can't buy a Sony pro HD CRT for less than $3000-$4000...truth is you can have one for $1500-$1000 if you know where to look, and know what you're looking for.

I'm all ears!!! I already have the extra 23" apple display. Thats why I'm leaning this way. But I'd appreciate any alternatives. As of now I CCing on a 500 Dollar Sony boradcast CRT. The cheapest one that does 16x9 (forget the model number).

Also is there any issue with progressive on the apple display?

nateweaver

12-09-2005, 12:08 PM

This and a BM HD Pro is all you would need:

http://www.mediumblend.com/abelstore/customer/product.php?productid=1102&cat=195&page=1

I've recommended a similar monitor and the person balked at the line spec...but you need to see it with your own eyes to understand that it's a true HD monitor and that specs do not tell the whole story. This model monitor was all over DVExpo (that is, when a vendor went through the trouble of getting a real HD monitor to display their product in the first place).

There's no issue with progressive on an ACD, but you do need an HDSDI/HDLink setup to see 60i footage correctly on it. Cinema Preview mode in FCP does not output fields to whatever display you're using.

doccutter

12-09-2005, 02:33 PM

man. I could have bought one of those 3 years ago for less than 1k... Live and learn I suppose. I did notice that it only resolved something like 800 lines, but that's more than the HVX resolves, no?

contentlab

12-09-2005, 03:01 PM

esperman

12-09-2005, 03:12 PM

DVCPRO-HD yes.
mxf file wrapper....maybe AVID?
anyone?

nateweaver

12-09-2005, 04:21 PM

I did notice that it only resolved something like 800 lines, but that's more than the HVX resolves, no?

That's what I'm talking about. You need to see it connected to an HD source, and not judge it based on spec. The very best Sony broadcast HD CRTs don't resolve full resolution.

Barry_S

12-09-2005, 04:37 PM

I think the PC lineup for cutting DVCProHD is Avid, Pinnacle, and Canopus. I know the current version of Avid Express Pro HD will cut DVCPro HD, but I'm not sure if Pinnacle and Canopus are currently shipping anything. Pinnacle is a division of Avid anyway, so I'm not sure where that's headed. I'll be pretty surprised if I don't see DVCPro HD support in Premiere and yes--even Vegas in the next 6-8 months.

doccutter

12-09-2005, 04:50 PM

That's what I'm talking about. You need to see it connected to an HD source, and not judge it based on spec. The very best Sony broadcast HD CRTs don't resolve full resolution.

Oh, yeah, I noticed when I was putting together my edit suite. I ended up with an older PVM monitor since I got it for 300, it did 16:9 and Blue only, and in the days of SD that was all I needed. I think the res was 600 lines or so, which was plenty to see DV's compression artifacts, but also plenty to do a reasonable off-line color correction. That's what I'm looking for, a solution that will be "pretty good' and allow me enough precision so that I can correct it enough so that people can watch at home on HDTV's and SD's as well. So the question is Dell 24" or the Sony L5. I don't have an HDTV at home, that's why the dell seemed appealing. If I eventually get big distro for a doc I do, I can easily online it at any local facility. I have heard of print folks calibrating the dell, I suppose we could hack together a blue-only tool in FCP by dropping the red and green channels, then making the result greyscale. The advantage of the sony, I suppose, is no herky-jerky hacking required. I wonder, too, about the dell, since it seems that I'll be living the 720P realm, how that will look full screen. HMMMMM.

Oh yeah, and at NAB a couple years ago, I saw the JVC and Panny demos, and their pro HD CRT monitors looked pretty damned bad, esp. compared with the Sony monitors. When I first saw them, I snickered to myself about how noisy the Varicam looked, but after more time, I realized it was the monitoring system, not the varicam itself.

nateweaver

12-09-2005, 06:14 PM

So the question is Dell 24" or the Sony L5. I don't have an HDTV at home, that's why the dell seemed appealing.

Oh my god, there's not even a comparison there. I bought the Dell for monitoring a FX-1 project at my old work. I recommend the Dell only if you have no other choice. It's a tremendous computer monitor, but for component HD monitoring, it was really terrible to look at.

Mine in fact had the same component in banding/noise that Mike Curtis (HDforindies) experienced. It made that input useless. If I had bought it with my own money I either would have bugged Dell until they fixed it, or returned it. As it wasn't mine, it eventually got relegated to the main comp monitor.

evinsky

12-09-2005, 07:53 PM

Nate, do you really feel the Sony is resolved enough for critical HD work? I guess you do from your comment, but it is only resolving 600 lines in 16:9. That is less than 720P.
I have yet to see one myself but that would be my first choice if were viable.

cineasta_dom

12-09-2005, 08:18 PM

Mannnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!

This forum is like a never-ending constantly updating book! I've already learned enough to frikin take some MXF files and some DVCPRO-HD stuff and put in a blender and make some AVIDS!!!!!!!!! =)

nice. I keep learning.

Didn't know about color-correcting with an HD monitor via D4 conection from cam [on shoot] to minimize pain and headaches in post. Wouldn't these HD monitors have to be rather 'smallish' if the shoot is in like,. a jungle? =)

Ah' LIKE it! Ah Like it OLot!

Konrad

12-09-2005, 08:54 PM

I'm curious why Panny is not playing nice with Cineform, when Cineform claims every other vendor is playing nice?

http://cineform.blogspot.com/

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=55652&page=2
Scroll down to the post from the Cineform CTO David Newman

doccutter

12-09-2005, 08:59 PM

cineasta_dom

12-09-2005, 09:34 PM

So ummm.,

What would be the more logical answer - for my umm, "jungle" shoot. I guess one wouldn't use the big expensive HD monitors for that 'special' shoot. I guess you would take little monitors instead. But then you wouldn't be able to do the color correcting stuff. Hmmmm. Those little 5"and 8" monitors could technically allways be atached to the HVX - alas Zacuto style (http://www.zacuto-rentals.com/HVX_2000267lg.jpg)

By the way... on that shot... what's that little thingy on top right?... Looks like an oversized Creative MP3 player.

???

Barry_Green

12-10-2005, 04:00 AM

I'm curious why Panny is not playing nice with Cineform, when Cineform claims every other vendor is playing nice?
Seriously? Take a look around CineForm's site; it'll probably become pretty obvious why Panasonic might decide to not go out of their way to do anything for Cineform. Look at Cineform's test articles: it seems like they're trying to make a name for themselves by bashing the Panasonic codec, including setting up a wildly unrealistic squashing/unsquashing test just to try to discredit DVCPRO-HD. Cineform has positioned themselves as Panasonic's competition. If I was Panasonic, I wouldn't give Cineform the time of day, much less give them one of the ultra-rare HVXes out there. (Note: I am not Panasonic, so this is not personal -- I have no problem with David Newman or Cineform, other than thinking that that test is grossly unrealistic of course... I'm just trying to explain that I can easily see why Panasonic could be righteously indignant against them.)

Basically if you're using the Panasonic product, you have no need for anything Cineform offers. Cineform is for HDV users who want to get away from the HDV codec as soon as possible. Panasonic's codec does not need to be "gotten away from". What exactly will Cineform do for a Panasonic user, when the HVX user can edit six to 12 streams of native-codec DVCPRO-HD in real time on a G5? Adding Cineform in the mix just means spending money and getting a transcode, which means an inherent and unavoidable loss of quality. So why would Panasonic rush to give Cineform one of the few engineering cameras in the world, when they could instead give that camera to VariZoom or Century Optics or Serious Magic or Apple or Canopus or Avid or Focus/FireStore or someone who would actually produce something that would be useful to the HVX customer?

Cineform's hitched their wagon to HDV, and they will prosper or suffer based on HDV adoption. There's no reason for Panasonic to give Cineform anything, and there's plenty of reason for Panasonic to be ticked at Cineform, if they so chose to be. Kick somebody in the teeth a few times, and then ask them for a favor and see what kind of response you get... <shrug>

Barry_Green

12-10-2005, 04:01 AM

veering things back to platforms, it seems as if there is no editing solution for a PC and the HVX at this moment, only promises that things will be ok sometime early next year. is my conclusion correct?
Canopus and Avid work today. Canopus is going to repackage/rebundle their offering soon to make it a one-stop, affordable, integrated package.

esperman

12-10-2005, 09:26 AM

In my case, you don't use the monitor in the field. The monitor is for post, when you're making edits and color correction for the offline edit. There are a wide variety of field monitors out there, the standards are the 5" and 8" sony PVM monitors, and they can be powered with NP1 batteries. They don't have the best resolution, but if you have a large crew in the jungle, they beat the viewfinder on most consumer cameras. If you want field monitoring for the HVX to be useful, you're going to need something small, but with excellent resolution...

If you have a large crew, you can have a real HD monitor...either high rez lcd or crt....regradless of location.

For run and gun no budget, then go with a small low res lcd to help give you an idea, or just get used to the camera lcd.

But if you have a budget and crew...then there really is no excuse not to have some sort of monitoring, in my opinion.

Gopher_Greene

12-11-2005, 10:36 PM

Will this work for a field monitor?

http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DTV100CGU

esperman

12-12-2005, 09:25 AM

It didnt list the lines of rez...but something like that would work....you would need to convert the D4 to rgb or SDI to go into it.

contentlab

12-12-2005, 11:57 AM

Canopus and Avid work today. Canopus is going to repackage/rebundle their offering soon to make it a one-stop, affordable, integrated package.

i'm actually waiting about 2 more weeks when all my CES prep is done before i load a trial version of Edius3 on my edit station that is currently using PremierePro/Vegas & Decklink HD. Knowing that Edius and Decklink won't work with each other how would i get my edited projects out, perhaps render out uncompressed from Edius and play that back in Premiere to my HD-SDI outs?

not that i expect you to answer since i'm also asking Edius the same question but i figure you or someone else will answer before i hear back from Edius.

thanks barry

Barry_Green

12-12-2005, 01:42 PM

No clue yet -- I got a demo disk of Edius but haven't even installed it.

Try at the Canopus forums -- they seem quite active, I'm sure someone can answer.

Jim Anderson

11-13-2006, 07:56 AM

I thought when the Panny techs created the idea of 24pn-30pn on the HVX, it was to clean away the duplicate pull-down frames that would be discarded in most NLE's including Adobe Premiere 2.0. From that, can Premiere Pro 2.0 handle MXF in 24pn?? I have had to purchase the DV Rack & HD Decoder to convert the MXF to AVI (Type 2) but there is currently a patch for the decoder needed to correct an audio timing issue with 24pn-30pn. I recently completed a short doc shot in 720/24pn with the HVX and used a DVX100A in 24p (4x3) unsqueezed for a future SD DVD version. I am hoping to down-rez the HVX footage to SD 4x3 (4x3 guides were used for the entire shoot) for the SD DVD version as well. I may also decide to up-rez the DVX footage to insert cutaways in the HD version with letterboxing. If anyone has any knowledge of this combination, please reply. PS I have ordered a new PC tower loaded with all the Premiere 2.0 specs and then some and the Premiere 2.0 program but it's not too late for me to return it and jump to Avid if I have to since the tower specs would suffice for either NLE . Help!!:dankk2:

Barry_Green

11-13-2006, 08:11 AM

Premiere Pro, by itself, has no MXF support at all.

However, if you're buying a new system and don't mind spending some coin on the Matrox Axio, it *really* shines with MXF/P2 material. Extremely good P2 integration.

Jim Anderson

11-13-2006, 10:14 AM

Thanks, do you mean Matrox Axio as a complete NLE replacing Premiere Pro 2.0 since Adobe seems to be asleep at the wheel on MXF?? I thought Premiere/Cineform was able to handle MXF when I purchased it but you would know better.

Barry_Green

11-13-2006, 11:07 AM

Axio is a support board set designed to work with Premiere Pro. And it totally integrates P2 within the Premiere/Windows environment. I'm a big fan of EDIUS' tapeless workflow integration, but in some ways Axio surpasses it. Axio, for example, can integrate the clip metadata right into Windows Explorer, so when you examine the contents of a folder you can see the normal columns ("name", "date modified", etc) but in Axio you can add P2 metadata columns too, so it can show whether a clip is marked, who the shooter was, what the scene number or user clip name is, etc. Very, very slick.

It's not inexpensive, but then again it can handle a whole lot of streams of HD in realtime including effects like stretching or shrinking or PIP or color correction or whatever. And that acceleration and integration carries over to other programs too, like After Effects.

If I was dead-set on using Premiere, and I could afford it, I'd definitely get the Axio/Premiere bundle.

As for CineForm, it transcodes the MXF files into CineForm AVI files, which will then work with Premiere Pro. It's another way to get Premiere to work with the HVX; there's also Raylight and S.M. DVCPRO-HD decoder.

Jim Anderson

11-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Thanks, I will check into Axio and think about keeping the Premiere 2.0 since I'm used to it and it was just an upgrade purchase. Besides, the Avid site appears to be spotty in P2 format support for certain frame rates generated by the HVX200. Cheers:)

Barry_Green

11-13-2006, 03:06 PM

Axio and EDIUS have the best P2 integration, heads and shoulders above the rest. Heck, heads and shoulders and chests and thoraxes and abdomens and booties and thighs and knees and shins and feet above the rest.

Apple/FCP would be next.

Avid, in my opinion, comes in last overall as far as integrated/supporting products, but it's a tough call; they don't support all the formats, but Avid does allow registering the P2 card as a directly-editable file. So if you're shooting something that Avid supports, I'd rank it higher than FCP, but if it's something Avid doesn't support then FCP would rank higher.

Vegas and Premiere Pro (by themselves) come in dead last, since they have no support whatsoever and even if you buy a third-party application you still won't get close to having the true tapeless workflow, you'll always have to unwrap/rewrap/copy/whatever your footage. But Premiere with Axio leaps back up to the top as far as integration goes.

Jim Anderson

11-13-2006, 08:24 PM

This gets confusing to me since regular 24p was a minor upgrade and similar workflow but now with DVC-PRO HD these 3rd party "Engines" seem to be required for tapeless work flow. I thought if I purchased a tower with dual 3.0 Xeon Processors, a NVIDEA Quadro FX 560 card, Raid 0, etc. I would be good to go. Converting the MXF files to AVI alone isn't too bad of a work-a-round but to have to purchase an additional major piece of gear to gain more format control, integration and export options is a pain with the big name NLE's. Thanks for your input. Jim

Jason Ramsey

11-13-2006, 08:35 PM

To be clear- You don't have to purchase any addon gear with EDIUS. You will get support for all of the HVX formats.

Barry was also saying that if you really want PP or if you can afford it, or want to go a hardware NLE route, that if you go with the Axio/PP routhe, you are getting a really great, really powerful option for p2 and the HVX. He even says that it will do some things that EDIUS will not.

As far as non-hardware based p2 workflows, EDIUS is head's, etc., etc., etc. above anything else when it comes to p2 integration/support.

Hardware based one's it seems that Axio is the champ.

Jason

*note- this is only in regards to p2 workflow/support/integration. Not which NLE is the best, most robust, has the best features, etc. That is for the individual to decide. But when it comes to working with p2, EDIUS is the clear software based winner, and it seems that Axio is the new hardware based champ for dealing with p2.

Barry_Green

11-13-2006, 08:39 PM

Exactly.

Jim Anderson

11-14-2006, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the info. I'm going to contact the company today that is building my new tower and get specific answers on the card that was called for (specs). If it's not too late, I'll try to switch to one of the previous brands mentioned. The challenge is that I purchased the upgrades (PPro 2.0 suite) so I will have to price these cards "ala-carte". Most resellers around here (NYC) only offer the bundles. It's always somethin'. Thanks again.