Transferr Film to Digital Media services ?

[Bruce Morgan]

:shocked: :beer:
Hello all you film lovers
Before I buy an astronomy camera(2k aquisition) and an old optical printer(clapper movement ) gate and all the related soft ware and hard drives , I have some questions.
Situation
I have acess to a giant 16mm and 35mm Library :air force war pictures stuff I shot etc
How can I get this stuff transferred off of film 35mm and 16mm and onto digital media
either tape or hard drive ,
1) refrences to good film transferr places that are not super expensive would be what i am looking for
any suggestions ?
2) any idea on taking the above mentioned items like astronomy camera et and building my own transferr rig would be great .any one have links to sites for this enterprise .
I would like to hear from the enterprising builders out there .
I love the world wide the effort , on the part of dv filmmakers , to build a depth of field lens adaption rig .
Now we need some sites on transferring film to digital so we all can unlock these images from film and put them into .......
DIGITAL FREEDOM
Thanks for a reply
Bruce :beer: :engel017:

[Bruce Morgan]

To encourage response on this thread , I am going to supply my own answers to the do it your self film to digital transferrs.
Some time ago I was talking to folks at Howard Andersons (an optical lab in los angeles ) as they were selling equipment .
The lead specialist mentioned astronomy cameras that take images at 2k resolution .
Id like to hear more about where to aquire these cameras.. Anyone ?

Then there is the question of the software and hardrive storeage behind such a system and that I know nothing about .
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated .

Next is the transport system and the lamphouse for the 35mm or 16mm projector gate.
The lamp house should have red blue a green filtration wheels or just a modern lamp house with reflector and a lamp which can hold a steady voltage and can burn at either 3200k or 5600k .

These projector movement may be rock steady( like the old bell and howell clapper movements ) or there may be a difficult realignment proceedure for each frame being digitized .

Again this is all about getting images from film to digital with some quality .
Any more ideas or likes are appreciated .
Cheers
Bruce :shocked: :engel017: :beer:

[thisiswells]

Probably best to hire this out to a company that specializes in film to tape transfers. You might consider having the film scanned in 10-Bit Uncompressed HD to Hard Drives for the "ultimate" quality. The camera idea is novel and maybe worth a try, but my feeling is stable registration would be very difficult to obtain and without dual exposure the dynamic range would be crippled. Considering you can't project a negative... This assumes that all of your film is print stock or reversal, right?

[Bruce Morgan]

Probably best to hire this out to a company that specializes in film to tape transfers. You might consider having the film scanned in 10-Bit Uncompressed HD to Hard Drives for the "ultimate" quality. The camera idea is novel and maybe worth a try, but my feeling is stable registration would be very difficult to obtain and without dual exposure the dynamic range would be crippled. Considering you can't project a negative... This assumes that all of your film is print stock or reversal, right?
:thumbsup:
Correct all the film is positive or print stock
or reversal .
When you say "dual exposure ' I assume they overlay or take one frame for highlights and one in the lower range for "darker details " ?
Please tell me more about dual exposure .
The registration issue is key .
and after I assume that i have rock steady reistration on the film gate of the projector head .
I then assume that there is still wobbel in the tape camera or even in an image being recorded by the astronomy camera which is cable linked to a hard drive .(Kodack executives once warned me of video tape "wobbel" during the "tape only "era ..I dont know if that has been solved now ?????
The facility costs could be massive unless I pear down the footage . So I must exhaust the source material on how this do it yourself facility is accomplished before I give up.
Any links or sources on the tech side of building or maintaning a film to digital transferr machine would be appreciated .
Thanks for a reply
Bruce :thumbsup:

[Bruce Morgan]

i am going to keep filling this thread with some ideas and hopefully ill get some feedback .
The point of my persistance is the Alternative to the idea that "FILM IS DEAD " We all have a rare opportunity to bridge the gap between film as a tool with a long legacy and DV digital video .
With so many film library shots available and so much potential for enriching documentary as well as small features ., I have to persist .So any one out there thanks for listening and thanks for feedabck .
There is an affordable way to take 35mm or 16mm neg or positive or reversal and get an acceptable scan out of the film original and into dv or let us say digital image of any type .
First was the process I mentioned with a astronomy camera. Many stages of "how to " are at this point unanswered .More info is needed .

Second is the use of something like the Nikon cool scan ( a 35mm scanner for still photos )
(maybe even the agfa matrix forte but id hate to have to relove all the soft ware issues since oit is no longer supported )
but then after you have scanned the image out of film into digital, how do you work this back into an avi file ?
or a 24p cine file with good color depth something like at least 4:2:2 ?
Last is a dirty method which I was told by one pioneer of the compression era(Don Miskowitz formwerly of efilm) would work ,
Simply get a good film to video transferr or
( buy a machine that will do this)(to avoid piracy)
and work at the resulting 525 line resolution .
You end up with a interlanced image file (60i) at 525 lines.
Then reintroduce the 24p aspect in your nle of choice .
Again any responses to this thread are greatly appreciated and ill be glad to post my findings ,
The reson again is that us independant filmmakers have lost a bridge (through high cost) of getting images out from film and back to dv .

I am almost ready to say that the dv industry and the gate keepers of high cost service have delibreatly blown that bridge in order to move everyone into useing dv products .
WE NEED AN AFFORDABLE "DO IT YOURSELF " TRANSFERR METHOD OF FILM TO DIGITAL IMAGING WHICH THEN MOVES EASILY INTO "DV" .
I CAN NOT EVEN BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW MANY"HOME MOVIES' ARE OUT THERE
IN THE WASTED LAND OF JUNK SHOPS WITH HISTORICAL FOOTAGE OF VALUE AND RUNNING TO THESE HIGH COST SHOPS AND LABS IS NOT AN OPTION FOR THE INDEPENDANT FILMMAKER ,
CHEERS AND THANKS TO ANYONE FOR A RESPONSE
BRUCE :thumbsup: :beer: :thumbsup:

[David G. Smith]

I love your ideas, keep us updated to your search. I think you are right, registration is key. Since you are in CA, look around for good pin-registered intermitent movements. The Mitchell movements (which are based on the Bell and Howell movements, if I am not mistaken) are the best. See if you can find some one scraping old film effects gear. I personally would love to get my hands on any Oxberry equipment, especially one of their aerial image animation stands. Don't discount old lab gear either, a contact printer could probably be modified for your needs.

Good luck.

[Bruce Morgan]

I love your ideas, keep us updated to your search. I think you are right, registration is key. Since you are in CA, look around for good pin-registered intermitent movements. The Mitchell movements (which are based on the Bell and Howell movements, if I am not mistaken) are the best. See if you can find some one scraping old film effects gear. I personally would love to get my hands on any Oxberry equipment, especially one of their aerial image animation stands. Don't discount old lab gear either, a contact printer could probably be modified for your needs.

Good luck.
:thumbup:
THANKS FOR THE REPLY
I have acess to a mitchell bnc but suprisingly this is not the very best registration and in this case ..
.You are correct
the oxberry stand with a clapper movement or 2709 movement is the best .
The agfa matrix forte can go ( with an oxberry head for around 400 dollars )
But I never would buy one unless I could see it first .
I would then have to gut the soft ware and replaace it with new if possible .The forte has no real support group left and the few websites that are up show really old operating systems as a base which I dont mind but everyone else will mind .

MY Next step is
I am serching this site and other for a week or so then ill get back to you with more data .
Thanks agin for reponding .
P S
This transferr method would free up filmmakers to use cine cameras again for certain shots like high speed and time exposure and special filtration shots .
The use of old silent cameras in conjunction with home processed black and white is just something digital can not do !!!
I cant even begin to tell you how important it is that we build this bridge
ONWARD !!!
Cheers
Bruce :beer: :thumbup: :engel017:

[Bruce Morgan]

Probably the easy work flow would be

1)Rank film to vidio transferr resulting in 525 line (60i) image file.
2) take through a post software program(?)DV FILM ? to get 24p
3) working with this means loss of color quality and the loss of over 1500lines of resolution

But you have taken the image out of film and got it into a digital environment .
Any comments or additional info on this idea are appreciated ...

Thanks

Bruce

[Bruce Morgan]

Update .

I have some 16mm contact printer heads. I will get the lamphouses working clean all the channels and motors. Then ill use the dvx100a in a test known in film as

"SHOOTING THE GATE"

read about it in "independant filmmaking" by Lipton

At the Panasonic booth in dec 2004 some Panasonic folks though I could adjust the shutter(on the dvx100a ) in order to just shot and therefore copy footage right off the screen.The screen would be a small silver screen or even a small but more expensive scotch lite material screen (tessilated ) which is dispalying the desired film footage (image) which i am trying to take back to digital realm .

Now ,Some questions if anyone can help please.

1) Is it true that the dvx100a lens gets more resolution at the wide angle setting than at long focal lenght or at medium setting ?
2) Before I reinvent the front screen projection wheel or thread ,
IS THERE A THREAD ON THIS SITE OR ELSE WHERE ABOUT USEING THE DVX100a ,
to film projected film footage in this effort to get film footage into a digital environment ?

Thanks for any refrences or links .

Cheers
Bruce

[Bruce Morgan]

a new method I discovered in conversation at the DV EXPO SHOW
1) film 16mm or 35mm mounted in projector with micrometer adjustments to placement of screen
2) screen made of tessilated scotchlite or mosaic diamond shaped sections of scotchlite which as high releftance material or any silver screen material .
3 a beamsplitter with a target registration grid to confirm registration .
4) photograph the frame with a digital camera (nikon d f2?) with a 18mm lens or some lens appropriate to your set up .
withthis you get digital aquisation and very large file .
you must fire (activate the shutter ) the nikon without moving it !!!!

5 ) import the nikon still file into
A) photoshop then to
B) after effects and finally
C) after appropriate compression of your choice
D) turn the string of frames into an avi file or whatever you need to use .
THROUGH A COMPRESSION PROGRAM OR AN AUTHORING SYSTEM
RESULTS COULD BE
LIBERATION from high cost transferr
But
Lots of labor hours in personal set up time .

PLEASE ANYONE

I need feed back on the registration issues as well as the screen material .
The projector could be low wattage and minimum heat if the screen is of high reflectance .
Many other considerations are maintaning color temp of the lamp etc .
Hope to hear from some one on this
Before I start building the" infernal machine "
Cheers
Bruce

[Bruce Morgan]

Hello Again
Soon these update will yield a real thread on How to Build A film to digital transferr machine .
Jared has given me permission to post two links with websites which have pictures and therefore ideas of how these rigs are configured .
Here they are:
for a look at a simple film 16mm to video rig try
www.Moviestuff.tv
and for something more advanced in getting from film to an advanced digital file look at these rigs
www.JKcamera.com/digital_printer.htm

Hopefully next time I post I'll have my own rig to show you .
Cheers and Happy new year 2006
Bruce

[donatello]

perhaps this will give you some ideas .. basically a optical printer - projector to advance the film and digital still camera to record images ..


http://www.jkcamera.com/digital_printer.htm

[Bruce Morgan]

Yes that is pretty much it .
my concern is
once you get all these frames in a digital edit sytem nle , what about registration features ?
cropping ? stabalizing images that are not steady?
I recall old programs like descreet logic which had features dedicated to stabalization .
the jk camera pictures are some of the best suggestions on line for building a system
I will be hunting through my stock pile in the next two months tring to find appropriate contact printer gates .
I never have owed a real optical printer gate or projector but I know some re going cheap .
Thanks for the refrence .
More later .
Cheers
Bruce

[John Michaels]

A good place to transfer/restore footage might be Spectra Film (http://spectrafilmandvideo.com). They have 35 and 16mm Steadi Gates on their rank for film that may have perf or shrink damage. They offer super/reg 8 rank transfers as well. They do some of the sharpest transfer work I have seen. I highly recommend them.

I understand that they offer good rates for 16 and 35mm transfer. But you must contact them with your footage quantities to work out the discount.

[Bruce Morgan]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: excellent
Ill check em out
Cheers
Bruce

A good place to transfer/restore footage might be Spectra Film (http://spectrafilmandvideo.com). They have 35 and 16mm Steadi Gates on their rank for film that may have perf or shrink damage. They offer super/reg 8 rank transfers as well. They do some of the sharpest transfer work I have seen. I highly recommend them.

I understand that they offer good rates for 16 and 35mm transfer. But you must contact them with your footage quantities to work out the discount.

[donatello]

the JK has registration pins and i s rock solid ( i've used JK 104 for super 8-16 blow up and 16 to 16 ) .. .

if you are looking for HD or 2k scans

i currently have a few 16mm rolls out for 2k scan at www.pixelharvest.com (http://www.pixelharvest.com)

some telecine places will deliver on HD hard drive
figure around $16 per "running min" for HD 10bit 1920x1080 24p on hard drive ( mac/pc- 15 min min charge) over at www.bonolabs.com (http://www.bonolabs.com)

if your films are scratched, old etc there are only a few places that have wet gate for super8, r8 , 16, 35mm which i'm running some old 16mm & Regular 8 thru www.posthouse.com (http://www.posthouse.com) with wetgate ... they also will dump to hard drive.

[Bruce Morgan]

A NOTE
The 10bit file size is considered an adequate capture capacity to get you into the quality film like capture ballpark .At least this is what I understand .
In inspecting miles of my libary of historical footage -I see that capturing scant info
of lests say 8mm old black and white image - The 10 bit file size may be overkill/
I plan to consider different digital capture cameras for the same beanch which will have different projectiopn heads 35mm , 16mm . super 8mm and
8mm .
Any thoughts on this modification of capture capacity and - scaling the capture per project would of course be appreciated .!!!

Types of cameras ?
optics ?
types of flash cards or memory cards in general ?

Oh by the way A question to you optical men and women - Is an "Aerial image "defined as ___________?
that image which is captured onto ground glass spinning occilating or fixed or anykind of beam splitter?
I could be using the term in the wrong manner . Areal image defined ?:shocked:

[kplo]

Bruce,
As I recall, an aerial image is an image formed in space between, say 2 plano-convex lenses as in the case of vintage "slide to film/video transfer" devices. The slide projector punched the image to a set of condensor lenses with the aerial image formed in the image plane between the lenses, then photographed by the camera at the other end of the rig. CCI had such a system "back in the day" at it's old Hollywood facility. The advantage, of course, was that you weren't adding any extra degradation to the transfer by forming the image on a ground glass surface.
I sure admire your efforts to build an optical transfer system yourself.
You probably already know that part of the reason commercial Rank type transfers are so expensive is the registration capabilities (software) that electronically stabilize the image (they used to target the sprocket holes, don't know what the current systems use).
With your stuff, a wet gate would be desireable.
An old friend of mine was commissioned to re-shoot paper negatives from the Library of Congress for archiving on "modern" film stock some time ago. Took at least a couple of years with their custom designed rig! Every frame had to be manually aligned due to shrinkage, etc.
Hope this helps.
Ken
the Screen Skins guy

[Bruce Morgan]

Thanks Ken
That does help .
i have a bunch of older sgi 320 workstations and some dell workstations all based on pent 2 or 3 cpu 's and some origin 200 servers for memory storage .
Additional output effort once the film images have been digitized will be OUTPUT THROUGH LAZAR ANF INK JET PRINTERS THEN PEGGED UP ON ANIMATION STAND AND SHOT BY A MITCHELL CAMERA (back to 35mm) safe archive and for screening etc
I plan to find something in windows software or nt software or even Linux software that will allow retargeting .
I may even go back a generation to unix based system since descreet logic had a stabilization program in thier old suite from the early 1990's.
In that case Ill have to pick up old sgi indys , octanes , or onyx .....what a brain melt down !!
Writing commands in unix . Something like talking to an old organ in a church trying to get it to play Bach .

The problem I am told by an overseas tech guru in eastern europe is
that he finds it to be better when the frame to frame registration is off a whole mm or a whole unit of calibration
if it is off registration by a small bit (?) then the resulting restabilization has blurr.
Oh well onward .
I am looking into past tech for future solutions .Any and all advise helps
So
Thanks Ken !!
Any other comments are invited and well appreciated .
Cheers
Bruce:) :) :D :thumbup: