PDA

View Full Version : Mixing 24p and 30i w/in the Same Program



Tim Scarpino
10-20-2005, 10:50 AM
I'm producing a nature documentary using the DVX100A and have shot all my outdoor footage in 30i at 4 x 3.

I'm planning to shoot all my interviews in 24p with the 16 x 9 box.

I want there to be a dramatic disconnect between the nature footage/B-Roll and my interviewees.

Does anyone see problem with this?

Thanks,

Tim

Keegs
10-21-2005, 01:26 PM
You should be fine. Just shoot the sit down interviews in the standard 24p mode, not advanced. This way, it will be easily compatible in the same timeline/sequence presets in your editing software.

Correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Good luck and show us some stuff!

Adam Crabbe
10-30-2005, 04:08 PM
Should look good!

cellulararrest
10-30-2005, 04:58 PM
Most NLE's seem to handle this fine with the exception being Premiere Pro. It doesn't give you a choice to not remove the pull down, so it removes it then puts it back on. The problem with this is you won't be able to preview it in real time. The end product should look fine though. It's a good way to seperate the two parts.

ARRIguy
11-05-2005, 06:29 PM
I'm producing a nature documentary using the DVX100A and have shot all my outdoor footage in 30i at 4 x 3.

I'm planning to shoot all my interviews in 24p with the 16 x 9 box.

I want there to be a dramatic disconnect between the nature footage/B-Roll and my interviewees.

Does anyone see problem with this?

Thanks,

Tim

Interesting - I'm thinking of doing the same thing except the other way round: using interlaced for interviews and 24p for the rest (also nature footage with additional sections of dramatic portrayal with actors). All of it would be 16x9.

Part of my reasons for choosing this reverse combination to yours is practical. I can shoot long winded interviewees with little cost (maybe with a Sony Z1) as opposed to my 24p medium for the Nature and drama portions which will be shot on film.

Not to knock your choice (I believe you will achieve your dramatic disconnect) but besides being practical (esp. with me using film for the 24p) I thought that my way of using interlaced and 24p would be a more natural fit for the content. Now you've got me questioning my rationale.

Do you intend to have a HD version of the show? If so, won't your full frame nature footage be chopped (without control from you) when seen on 16x9 screens?

I'd be very interested in hearing from yourself and others on our opposing methods.

By the way, does anyone have experience in mixing HDV interlaced footage and S16 (in bigger blocks as I'm proposing)? Can anyone give me names of shows that have done this?

Emanuel
11-06-2005, 12:50 PM
And about mixing 24p and 25p w/in the Same Program? Will it be better the final master in 24p and after convert to 25p? Or the final master in 25p and after convert to 24p?

khmuse
11-06-2005, 04:56 PM
And about mixing 24p and 25p w/in the Same Program? Will it be better the final master in 24p and after convert to 25p? Or the final master in 25p and after convert to 24p?

Is the 24p NTSC and the 25p PAL? If so, you will have to consider how you are going to handle the different PARs and color systems of the two formats.

Emanuel
11-07-2005, 01:28 AM
Is the 24p NTSC and the 25p PAL?Indeed...


If so, you will have to consider how you are going to handle the different PARs and color systems of the two formats.How?

DougieBalls
11-07-2005, 09:40 AM
I'm producing a nature documentary using the DVX100A and have shot all my outdoor footage in 30i at 4 x 3.

Does anyone see problem with this?


Tim:

this year I did a documentary about a shipwreck off the coast of Gloucester, MA, and the history and legacy behind it. I shot all interviews and topside footage in 24p and everything in-water at 30i, mostly out of necessity. It looked great, I was really happy with it, and response to the film has been outstanding. Nobody gives a shit that it's mixed-format.

However, I didn't shoot 16:9 in one and 3:4 in another. I can't say whether or not it will work but my initial thought is it will look great and you'll get the desired effect.

Go for it! please let me (and all of us) know when you wrap production on it, I'd love to see it.

Aaron

WesCoughlin
11-07-2005, 12:25 PM
You should be fine. Just shoot the sit down interviews in the standard 24p mode, not advanced. This way, it will be easily compatible in the same timeline/sequence presets in your editing software.

Correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Good luck and show us some stuff!



It seems most people agree with this statement, but i have honeslty never heard of anyone placing 24 fps footage into a 30 fps timeline. Im not aware of any program that allows you to do this. the only way i see this feasable, is to de-interlace the 30fps and then use a pulldown to make it into 24 fps, otherwise your 24p in a 30fps will not be anything close to 24 fps, it would have certain frames that repeat depending on 24p or 24pa. I wish there was an easy way to mix frame rates, and if anyone knows something i dont, please say.

John_Moore
11-07-2005, 05:00 PM
I think Keegs is right.

WesCoughlin
11-08-2005, 07:04 AM
Well the hole purpose of 24p is to have 24 progressive frames persecond. which contains no fields as does 30i. So how can 24p be 24 fps in a 30 fps timeline?? I think what most people see is the 24p before they remove the pulldown (which is is in 30fps). Before the pulldown is remove, depending no which one (2:3:3:2....) there would be frames that repeat themselves to make up the difference of 24fps too 30fps.

John_Moore
11-08-2005, 10:55 AM
Well, the two can be mixed on VHS, which is 30 fps, so why not drop them into the editing softwares timeline?

WesCoughlin
11-08-2005, 11:51 AM
Well, you can record onto a minidv tape at 60i 30p and 24p much like a vhs; This is why it requires special software to read the information recorded (the vhs player must pick a code from the tape, much like a dvd player does allowing it to read to proper frame rates). Im not sure what editing system you use, but if it is premiere only premiere pro 1.5 has a feature that allows you to work with 24p and 24pa footage.

John_Moore
11-08-2005, 03:43 PM
There isn't any special code needed as far as I'm aware! Only for TRUE 24p, or 24pa.

For standard 24p with the 2:3 pulldown it should drop into any 60i timeline perfectly, along with any 30p footage.

WesCoughlin
11-08-2005, 04:28 PM
Yet a 60i timeline does not remove the 2:3 pulldown making the the footage 24fps. you are able to place 24p in a 30fps timeline, but whats the hole point in using 24p if its not 24fps?

Joe Kras
11-08-2005, 04:30 PM
John (and others saying the same thing) are correct. Cameras (like the DVX) that shoot regular 24p on mini-DV record the 24p to tape with regular (2:3:2:3) pull down already inserted. It is a 60i tape. Similarly, when films (which were shot in 24p) are shown on TV, they are converted to 60i when transferring to tape by adding 2:3:2:3 pulldown.

So you can mix 60i footage with regular 24P footage (which is really 60i footage with pulldown already inserted) to your hearts content on any standard NLE.

The only problem comes when you shoot 24pa (which is recorded onto the 60i tape with 2:3:3:2 pulldown inserted). The 24pa pulldown is meant to be removed during capture, in order to edit on a 24p (well, 23.98 actually) timeline. You CAN put it on a 60i timeline without removing the 2:3:3:2 pulldown, but this non-standard pulldown will make the footage look jumpy and funky. So then you're left with the choice of either converting the 24pa to standard 24p (removing one pulldown and inserting the other) or converting the 60i footage to 24p in order to edit on a 24p timeline.

Hope that made sense.

WesCoughlin
11-09-2005, 06:55 AM
It is hard for me to understand because not until recently premiere pro had no 24p support; but what you are saying is that 24p footage can be mixed with 60i on a 60i NLE timeline then exported and the 24p pulldown still remain. So why would everyone else be complaining about no 24p support in certain NLE's if they could just do what you say?

John_Moore
11-09-2005, 09:19 AM
Because (unless I'm mistaken; I don't actually use a 24p cam) the pulldown makes it very difficult to edit, AND, 24pa does require support from the editor.

24p by 2:3 is just exceedingly difficult to edit because of some half frame blending thing that I don't quite get totally.

Joe Kras
11-09-2005, 09:21 AM
So why would everyone else be complaining about no 24p support in certain NLE's if they could just do what you say?

I've been able to use regular 24p in Premier 6.5. Just drop it on a normal 60i timeline.

The reason everyone makes a big deal about support for 24pa is because of the advantages of editing in a 24p timeline. All of the frames are progressive (no interlaced artifacts) and you can build a 24p DVD, which uses 20% less space than putting 60i/30p on a DVD. So you can either put 20% more content on the DVD or use less compression (get higher quality).

danstanbury
12-04-2005, 09:11 AM
Hi
I have a similar challenge. I'm planning to shoot a doc in Thailand and would like to shoot much of it in 25p to give some filmic drama to the production. However because of the 25p limitation in low light conditions there are times I think by necessity I will have to shoot 50i. Also I have a another smaller 3ccd camera for shooting run and gun video where it is essential to avoid attracting the attention of the authorities (obviously this camera will only have 50i).
I would like to mix both types types of video, however the edititing software I currently have is Premier, is it true that this is the one package I cannot use for this? Can anyone recommend a way around this limitation or a better program to use such as Final Cut, which I am thinking of purchasing with a Mac?
Thanks
Dan

Tainted
01-09-2006, 03:45 PM
I've got a couple of comments that go to the heart of keeping all of your production work as flexible as possible for use later in post. My take on the mixed 16:9 and 4:3 is that in general I don't like it, but that said, you and others may like it which is fine. HOWEVER, if I were you, considering the DVX doesn't really shoot true widescreen anyway (without an anamorphic lens or tricks with squeeze and whatnot), I'd seriously consider shooting everything in 4:3 rather than use the in-cam masking. That'll leave you the option to use it as 4:3 or masked to 16:9 depending on how it turns out. Whereas if you mask in camera, and it turns out to look like sh!t, there's nothing you can do at that point (except maybe take the stuff intended for 4:3 down to masked 16:9 possibly). Now if you want to go the sqeeze route or the anamophic route, that'd be a little different, but my main point is that you might want to keep things flexible for post rather than box yourself in.

In the same vein, and I bet some people might disagree with me, I'd probably shoot the 24p in ADVANCED mode personally. My reasoning here is the same: flexibility in post. If you shot 24pa, you can strip it down to true 24p, and if you need a 60i version of that footage, then simply add back in 3:2 pulldown. Shooting in ADVANCED gives you the option to have true 24p or 60i, whereas 24p with 3:2 is pretty much a done deal (well not really, but it'd be an even bigger pain in the ass if you wanted to remove the 2:3 pulldown). Now, if you know for sure you're going to be editing in a 60i timeline, then maybe there is no point and 24pa will just make the workflow more of a pain in the arse.