Shooting with the HVX200, How?

[mikepl]

We are going to start up a new film project at the first of the New Year. Our past documentary film was shot using the DVX100 and 100A ( Wonderful camera with superb film look ) . For the next (three year project ) we want to shoot HD and were very excited to find out about the HVX200. The question I have for all of you is how will it make any practical sense to shoot using the HVX200 with P2 cards? We do have a budget to work with but I don’t understand how it would work shooting only 20min of HD footage on a card? Does it mean we need to carry ten 8gb P2 cards for HD capture? Since we will be shooting three cameras it feels a little silly to spend $30,000 on p2 cards.

Essentially I was wondering if anyone has figured out how to pull off a workflow with this camera that wont require running out of p2 cards whenever something important is bound to happen.

I am extremely disappointed they did not offer minidv HD tape support because the P2 card numbers just don’t work in my head. ( Any word of HD tape version?)

On a side note I tested the new JVC HD and was very disappointed with “video” film look. The 24p looks horrific.

As much as i feel the HVX200 is perfect I can't see making it work; shooting alot of footege sometimes nowhere near power for the hardive storage unit they have. ( AJ-PCS060G )

Thanks,

[a.King]

i read somewhere you can transfer your footage to an ipod... sooo maybe get a couple cards and a few 80 gig ipods, or a powerbook for the field.

[SkiUtah]

i read somewhere you can transfer your footage to an ipod... sooo maybe get a couple cards and a few 80 gig ipods, or a powerbook for the field.


Nope, you NEED a 'smart' device that knows what it is capturing, like the firestore. A Powerbook would work also.

[a.King]

hmmm. i wasnt talking about directly recording to an ipod but simply transfering your files from the p2 card.

and from what i read in a article featured on this website....

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/

...about halfway through the article it qouted this when refering to the hvx200 "It can also dub footage from the P2 card directly to an iPod, or to an external USB hard disk."

i dont see why this isnt possible. but im pretty sure you mis-read and thought i was refering to a direct capture to an iPod... and not simply transfering files.

although i havent used this camera from what i read in the article this is possible

[AZScott]

Yikes. So much bad information floating around. mikepl, I haven't been posting to this board for long (I've lurked awhile), but I know enough to at least read some current discussion before posting question that have already been answered.

1. Firestore will have a HD recorder. Shoot all day, then offload to a computer at night. Maybe not available right away (Q1 '06, maybe?)

2. There will be a pre-record function on the camera. Buffering for several seconds means you only have to pull the trigger within a few seconds of when something important happens. Of course, that assumes you were pointing the right way and had your shot framed. This is perfect for news and docu shooters.

3. HD on mini-DV means HDV. It sucks. get over it. Panasonic's not doing it.

4. The AJ-PCS060G is by no means the only option. In addition to the Firestore, you will be apparently be able to offload P2 content to ANY Firewire drive. You can only record realtime to the Firestore (with pre-buffer? I don't know that one)

So, for documentary work, you only have to have enough P2 cards to handle your longest shot, then either have time to offload those shots to an external drive, or have more P2 cards for the next shot(s). Sooner or later, you'll have to get the shots off P2 and start over again. Or wait for the Firestore.

Again, all these questions have been previously discussed ad nauseum. Read the other threads, and you'll find the answers to almost all your questions. Maybe it's time for a HVX-200 FAQ? The "Established Info" Sticky is a little outdated and incomplete.

[mikepl]

The problem is the kind of documentary filming we do is very much on the spot, inside outside etc. The environment is never controlled and a powersouce is never expected.

Its a shame the cam is ahead of the p2 tech. If only they released a HD tape cam first then a p2 cam in a year and half at this price point.

My point to all this is that don't you think all these recorder's are hardrives take away what minidv's cams small sizes have provided us as filmmakers? The power to shoot on the whim while also being discreet while shooting our subjects ( mostly documentary film )

AZScott I am not looking for a class regrading forum educate; simply away to have a discussion built around a busy schedule.

[AZScott]

An HD tape transport would have been impossible at anywhere near this price point. Like $19,000 within this price point, if memory serves. The DVCPro transport costs that much to manufacture.

Yes, within a few scant years we'll have solid-state memory chips at bandwidths and sizes to easily hold hours of HD for cheap. But early adopters will pay an inflated price. That's just the way it goes with computers. But in a way, that's one of Panasonic's strong suits with this camera. P2 media is just going to get faster, bigger and cheaper as time goes on.

Unfortunately, you need to adapt NOW to a no-tape workflow now. The benefit, of course is no didgitizing, the ability to delete unwanted shots on the fly, pre-buffer in the camera. And 1080p for under 10G! Don't forget that. I think carting a few battery-powered Firewire drives is well worth it.

Or, will you have access to a car? You can run a power inverter from the battery and run all kinds of electronic equipment, including off-the-shelf drives. Can you use a vehicle as a "home base" during shooting?

[a.King]

hmmm so basicly yes you can transfer to an iPod... and an iPod isnt very big at all and has a decent amount of space available.

so mikepl...... maybe have a few 4gig cards or an 8gig. and an ipod inyour pocket. shoot... transfer... erase ... shoot

correct me if this is wrong but that seems pretty simple and not bulky

[mikepl]

The way we shoot it hard to stop every 20min and switch out cards or dump on an ipod. Life unfolds and its hard to capture if you are looking away.

Besides bulk and price my biggest problem is that I need to capture for more than 60min. I agree that by 2007 we should be seeing 128Gb P2 cards but will it be possible to get by until and still be able to ( almost nonstop ) shoot for 60-128min or more? Without buying 10 P2 cards or being anywhewre near a powersouce

When I talk price everything I reefer to is x3 since we shoot three cameras at all times.

[AZScott]

Also, the fact that Panasonic's literature describes the AJ-PCS060G as being able to be used as an external USB2 drive leads me to believe that you might also be able to offload the P2's by USB, as well as Firewire. I seem to remember that from the NAB presentation.

Other than the iPod, are there any other small, battery-powered Firewire or USB drives at a reasonable price? If not, it would seem this camera is going to create a healthy market for them. I'm thinking devices iPod size, or smaller, with a high-capacity HD and no other frills. Carrying 2 or 3 of those for a full day's shooting wouldn't be too bad.

[mmm]

The problem is the kind of documentary filming we do is very much on the spot, inside outside etc. The environment is never controlled and a powersouce is never expected...

I sounds like the HVX may be the wrong camera for you. You may be able to workout a workflow with a Firestore, but if you want hours of unrestricted HD shooting for under 10K, I would look at HDV.

The HVX will probably (although far from certain) produce the most "film like" footage from the sub-10K cameras, but the HDV cams are still capable of very good things. Weigh up if the sacrifice in shooting freedom is worth the increase in picture quality.

[AZScott]

Just like the event shooters, if your requirement is 60-120 minutes nonstop, it'll be Firestore or nothing. Unless you could offload from one P2 card while the other one is still shooting. Then, you'd just need to keep the drive connected, and give the camera an offload command every 8 minutes or so. Assuming 1080p - 720/24p would be more than double that shooting time on P2.

[mikepl]

I agree however I guess the point I am not making clear is that we will be starting this project right after this cam hits the market. I understand in a year or so many problems with storage will be solved. However under what the current market holds when the cam is released will it be possible to capure vast amounts of footege on the go? ( on locations, aka streets etc )
Events unfolding swiftly that need to be captured as one could with a pack full of mindv master tapes.

The reason we want to make this work becasue the size of these cams, like the DVx100 it makes live shooting so much easier and desert than what could be done with the shoulder cameras. ( Not to mention the attention shoulder cameras draw ) I guess the p2 cards are just far enough behind the release of this camera that you need a controlled environment for this to work; at least for the first year or so.

[Barry_Green]

Update: the offloading system has changed. Initially it was going to be possible to offload to USB2 drives, but instead they are implementing offloading via 1394. So you can offload to a firewire drive, not a USB2 drive.

Don't know if that makes any difference in anyone's plans, but that's where things are now.

[mikepl]

Interesting.

Do any of you guys know ( or have a link ) what specs the Firestore will offer for the HVX200.

[mmm]

I agree however I guess the point I am not making clear is that we will be starting this project right after this cam hits the market.

I doubt the Firestore will be out until March '06, so that is out then, it will be 100GB I believe.

If I was you, I would go with the Sony Z1 then or do you have to have progressive scan?

The way you descibe the situation, P2 doesn't sound like the solution. There is the ENG focused P2 store, but I am not sure if it would solve the issue:

Click here for info (http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=32)

[mikepl]

From what we know will the firestore be an attached unit and allow stop free recording or will you have to unload p2 cards into it like a store drive? ( aka AJ-PCS060 )

[Zig_Zigman]

Just bring an ibook with you and have an assistant offload the p2 every time it's full. Shouldn't be too bad.

[mikepl]

So we can expect a 100GB firestore ( mount ) like the DR-DV5000 but for the HVX200? if true that would work perfect I would think?

[AZScott]

Just like the SD Firestore, it will be live, stop-free recording limited only by the size of the herd drive or the Firestore's battery life. On the current FS-4, the battery pack is removable, so there's a possibility for slight downtime after 90 minutes, much like changing tape. Firestore has also announced upcoming HDV capability, as well. They announced in conjunction with the new JVC cam, but others are surely in their thoughts.

[mmm]

From what we know will the firestore be an attached unit and allow stop free recording or will you have to unload p2 cards into it like a store drive? ( aka AJ-PCS060 )

You will be able to capture straight to the Firestore without any P2 cards. It isn't yet clear if the Firestore will be capable of everything that a P2 can do though.

[mikepl]

Interesting. Thanks for the info guys. If only the firestore can capture around 100GB stop free we should be able to make it to the point where we can buy 100GB p2 cards ( the answer to all these problems )

"The FireStore DTE recorder for HVX200 is expected to be available in March 2006 and price will be less than $2,000." ( 100GB I think )