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Barry_Green
09-07-2016, 12:01 PM
Press release dated 9/7/16:



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


Panasonic Announces Pricing/Availability of New 4K Integrated High-Power Zoom Lens UX Camcorder Series

4K Professional Camcorders Boast the Industry's Widest Optical Zoom Angle of 24mm
NEWARK, NJ (September 7, 2016) – Panasonic today announced availability and pricing for the first two models in its new UX series of professional 4K camcorders, the UX Premium Model AG-UX180 and the UX Standard Model AG-UX90. The UX180 and UX90 begin deliveries in December and November, respectively, with suggested list prices of $3,795 and $2,295.


The camcorders offer a host of features for the high image quality and advanced functionality required in video production, including a newly-designed Leica Dicomar 4K compact lens with a wide 24mm angle (4K 24p, 17:9), the industry’s widest for an integrated lens camcorder. Both models incorporate a 1.0-type (effective size) MOS sensor, providing the same level of sensitivity as conventional handheld camcorders. Versatile and easy-to-use MOV (QuickTime), MP4 and AVCHD file formats are supported.


When recording in FHD, variable frame rate (VFR) enables 10-step recording at 2-60fps. The variety of recording modes with selectable image quality, frame rate and bit rate settings respond to a wide range of applications, from education and corporate to sports and web video.


“The UX series delivers exceptional 4K performance at compelling price points, with breakthrough features such as the 24mm angle lens for wide-angle shooting without requiring a wide conversion lens,” said Steven Cooperman, Senior Product Manager, Panasonic System Communications Company of North America. “The camcorders’ extensive focus assist features make 4K shooting easier than ever before.”


UX Series: Expanded O.I.S., Very Intelligent Auto Focus
Features for easy operation and high reliability, such as Optical Image Stabilization (O.I.S.), Intelligent Auto Focus (AF), and relay and simultaneous recording with a dual SD memory card1 slot, support professional camera work.


The O.I.S. correction area has been expanded to approximately 900% when in UHD/FHD mode over the conventional area (vs. AVVCAM models), providing powerful correction even in unstable shooting situations such as low-angle or high-angle shots. In FHD shooting mode, a 5-Axis Hybrid Image Stabilizer combines the effects of both optical and electronic image stabilization to detect and correct hand-shaking in various directions, including rotary.


Intelligent AF makes even difficult 4K focusing automatic and affords high speed, superior tracking performance and stability. AF operation can be customized with adjustments to speed, sensitivity and area width. When the Focus Assist button is pressed, Expand or Peaking is displayed to assist the user's comprehensive manual focusing operation. Additionally, Auto Focus is activated for a subject that is touched on the camcorder’s LCD panel.


The camcorder’s two SD card slots enable virtually unlimited (to 96GB) relay recording by simply changing SD cards, and also allow simultaneous recording. Additional recording functions include pre-rec, interval rec, freeze frame and time stamp. Six files preset with picture quality settings are provided as Scene Files, and any of 44 functions can be allocated to 13 user buttons.


The lens system simultaneously and independently drives four lens groups; the lens size and drive range for each of the four groups can be efficiently suppressed to optimize image quality and zoom power. The camcorders feature three manual rings for zoom, focus and iris control, offering a familiar, professional feel; they are equipped with a digital zoom by any of three fixed values — 2x, 5x or 10x.


Bolstering professional-level capture, four position (OFF, ¼, 1/16/ 1/64) ND filters are built in. The camcorders also feature Gain Selector, Auto White Balance Selector and an Auto Tracking White Balance function. Both UX models are equipped with a terminal for remote operation of iris, focus, zoom and REC start/stop. An AG ROP app for iPad, available free of charge from the Apple App Store, enables wireless remote control with installation of a wireless module (optional AJ-WM50/ AJ-WM30).


A 3.5-type LCD monitor built into the camcorders' handle section can be pulled out and turned 270 degrees vertically for use in high-angle, low-angle or selfie shots.


The Highly Professional AG-UX180: 20x Zoom, Super Slo-Mo, IR Shooting
Premium assets of the UX180 include a high-powered 20x optical zoom, 4K/24p, UHD/60p and FHD/60p multi-format recording, FHD super-slow motion 120fps recording, infrared shooting in darkness (0 lux) and 3G-SDI/HDMI output. The 20x optical zoom covers the range from 24 mm at the wide-angle end to 480 mm at the telescopic end (35mm film equivalent at 4K24p)--the lens can zoom from wide-angle to telescopic in approximately 2.0 seconds.


In HD shooting modes, an i.Zoom function increases the zooming capability to a maximum of approximately 30x, while maintaining high resolution. iZoom seamlessly switches on when the 20x optical zooming limit is reached. For worldwide use, the UX180 is 59.94Hz/50Hz switchable.

The UX180 supports dual codec recording (UHD2/FHD or FHD 100 Mbps+/FHD 8 Mbps); sub-recording files can be used for preview, off-line editing and online transmission. FHD (8 Mbps) sub files can be transmitted via mobile networks so editing work can be performed before the delivery of the main recording files, facilitating workflow efficiency.


The camcorder's 16-axis color correction provides an independent effect to each of 16 phases of video images, enabling color matching of multiple cameras under the same lighting conditions as well as creative image rendering. Additional image adjustment functions include detail, skin detail, chroma level, chroma phase, master pedestal, gamma and knee setting. The camcorder is equipped with eight selectable gamma modes, including two Cine-Like Gammas, drawing on technologies developed for the VariCam.


The high-resolution OLED EVF features a 1.77 million dot display. LCD/EVF displays include waveform and vectorscope, ZEBRA, Y level marker and level gauge. Beyond 3G-SDI/HDMI output, the UX180 offers a video/audio out for monitoring, two channel XLR audio, USB 3.0 Host/Device and TC Preset In/Out to sync multi-camera shooting.


The Highly Affordable AG-UX90: 15X Optical Zoom, UHD/30P Recording
The standard UX90 is a high cost/performance model with a 15x optical zoom, an industry-best 24.5mm wide angle lens (FHD), and UHD/30p and FHD 60p recording. In HD shooting modes, the i.Zoom function increases the zooming capability to a maximum of approximately 25x.


Professional interfaces include HDMI output, two-channel XLR audio, USB 3.0 Host/Device, and video/audio out for monitoring. The UX90 has a 0.24-type EVF.


For more information about Panasonic professional video products, visit www.panasonic.com/broadcast (http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast) or contact Panasonic at 877-803-8492 (tel:877-803-8492).

(neil.matsumoto@us.panasonic.com)


1: Video-shooting at 100Mbps or higher requires an SD Card compatible with UHS Speed Class 3 (U3).
2: Excludes UHD 60p, 4K

Ron Evans
09-07-2016, 12:27 PM
Will be nice to get the differences in spec to the HC-X1.

Gweilo66
09-07-2016, 12:58 PM
Announced at NAB, no?

Barry_Green
09-07-2016, 02:10 PM
The NAB announcement was that something called the UX series was coming, but practically no specifications were revealed, and the price points were quoted as "under $4,000" and "under $3,000", with availability estimated to be "in Fall." So there's a lot more info in these press releases, including that the UX90 is drastically below $3,000, and up-to-date estimated availability.

TheDingo
09-07-2016, 02:28 PM
The camcorder’s two SD card slots enable virtually unlimited (to 96GB) relay recording by simply changing SD cards, and also allow simultaneous recording.

Hmmm... 96GB seems a little small for "virtually unlimited" relay recording. I wonder if this was supposed to be 960GB ???

davedv
09-07-2016, 02:57 PM
The Panasonic UX90 is certainly priced pretty aggressively at $2295 considering that the similarly spec'd Sony PXW-Z150 (1-inch sensor, 12x optical zoom, UHD/30p) currently goes for almost $1000 more. The UX90 pricing also fits better with the rest of the Panasonic 4K 1-inch sensor camera lineup with HC-X1 (20x zoom, FHD/120p, UHD/60p) at $3199 and UX180 (20x zoom, SDI, and TC) at $3795.

Still, it's kind of confusing to have 3 models that all seem to fit in the same family, but then give one of them a distinct model name HC-X1. Feels a little bit like Panasonic couldn't decide on feature sets, so they went with 3 models where they could have gone with 2. But maybe this will make more sense as more details emerge?

Now, the Sony Z150 can record 10-bit 4:2:2 internally (in HD) and I'm sure that's one of the things everyone wants to know about these new Panasonic models as well. Any mention of color depth or chroma subsampling has been notably absent from any of the press releases or product brochures so far. Not sure if that means that they are still working on the camera firmware and these details haven't been finalized yet, or because everything is 8-bit 4:2:0 so what's the point of touting it.

Gweilo66
09-07-2016, 03:30 PM
Dingo, the unlimited recording refers to relay..swapping the recording card out before it fills up while it starts on the empty one..rinse, repeat: endless. Size of SD card only determines how often you have to swap.

This caught my eye..: "The standard UX90 is a high cost/performance model with a 15x optical zoom, an industry-best 24.5mm wide angle lens (FHD), and UHD/30p and FHD 60p recording."
"Standard"? Referring to a future upgraded version? Maybe just bad translation or choice of words.
So does the 90 do 24p @ UHD or just 30?

originalauthor
09-07-2016, 03:57 PM
Standard as in comparison to the UX180 which is called the "premium" model. It does both 24p and 30p @UHD

davedv
09-07-2016, 04:02 PM
Brochures for both the UX cameras are now available on the Panasonic website:
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/ux/index.html

UX 90 Brochure (http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux90p.pdf)
UX 180 Brochure
(http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux180.pdf)
According to the brochures, only the UX180 supports Cinema 4K (4096 x 2160 @ 24fps) recording. Both the UX90 and UX180 support UHD (3840 x 2160) recording in 24p and 30p.

The specification documents also list the "Recording Video Signal" as 8-bit 4:2:0 and the "Video Signal for External Output" as 8-bit 4:2:2. The UX180 specs have a note that external output of UHD/59.94p/50.00p becomes 8-bit 4:2:0 so presumably 8-bit 4:2:2 output only applies to UHD/30p and below.

nutmegger
09-07-2016, 04:16 PM
This answers the question we had about the HC-X1 bit depth. Both cameras have the same sensor and image processing. Was hoping for 10-bit 4:2:2 output.

Sumfun
09-07-2016, 08:00 PM
Hmmm... 96GB seems a little small for "virtually unlimited" relay recording. I wonder if this was supposed to be 960GB ???

I was wondering about this, too. But their brochure clearly states that the cameras can record to 128GB cards, and the recording time on that card is twice that of the 64GB cards. So my interpretation is that in relay recording, it will only fill each card to 96GB, then switch to the next card. Maybe Barry can clarify?

Sumfun
09-07-2016, 08:47 PM
From reading the brochures, it looks like the UX180 and HC-X1 use the same sensor, while the UX90 uses a different one. The sensors on the UX180 and HC-X1 both have 8.79 Mpixels for UHD and FHD modes, and 9.46 Mpixels for 4k mode. But the sensor on the UX90 has 17.78 Mpixels for FHD mode, and only 8.59 Mpixels for UHD mode. So the UX90 significantly crops the sensor when going from FHD to UHD (similar to what the DVX200 does, but the DVX200 has a larger sensor). This is also confirmed by the lens, which has a (35mm equivalent) wide angle focal length of 24.5mm at FHD, but 35.4mm at UHD. On the other hand, the UX180 and HC-X1 uses the full sensor for 4k, and slightly crops for UHD and FHD. This is also confirmed by the lens that goes from 24mm at 4k to 25.4mm at UHD and FHD. So my conclusion is that if you're shooting UHD, then the picture quality will probably be significantly better on the UX180 and HC-X1 than on the UX90. But if you're only shooting FHD, then the picture quality on these 3 cameras will probably be similar. But if you're only shooting FHD, then you can probably find a cheaper camera, too.

So in my opinion, the UX180 and the HC-X1 are the two cameras that should be classified in the same family, while the UX90 should be in a different family. But who am I to say? :smile:

Gweilo66
09-07-2016, 09:30 PM
Ah..well we shall then see if the mention of the "standard UX90" leads down the road to different version..

Terry Nixon
09-08-2016, 09:49 AM
my rep at Panasonic Consumer says that the HC-X1 is similar to the AG-UX180, but without HD-SDI & TC input.

0% 12 Month Lease Financing is available on the AG-UX180 & AG-UX90. Apply online using the button below.

Panasonic AG-UX180 $3495 ETA December 2016 (http://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX180-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6847.html)

Panasonic HC-X1 December 2016 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-HC-X1-Ultra-HD-Professional-Camcorder-with-20X-LEICA-DICOMAR-Lens_p_6849.html) $3199.99

Panasonic AG-UX90 $2095 ETA November 2016 (http://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX90-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6848.html)

http://shop.texasmediasystems.com/assets/images/buttons/pan-marlin-apply.png (http://www.texasmediasystems.com/panasonic-leasing.php)

nutmegger
09-08-2016, 11:36 AM
Terry, You contacted a consumer Panny rep regarding the HC-X1 and UX180. Yet Panasonic in their brochures advertise these cameras as "Professional" cameras. Are these cameras being marketed through Panasonic's consumer division?

Terry Nixon
09-08-2016, 11:58 AM
The HC-X1 is marketed by the photo division of Panasonic.

The AG-UX180 and AG-UX90 is marketed through Panasonic Professional.

nutmegger
09-08-2016, 12:49 PM
Will the HC-X1 and UX180 have the same warranties?

Barry_Green
09-08-2016, 01:01 PM
FYI, we had a similar situation with the HC-X1000; it was clearly and obviously every bit as professional in design and features as any Panasonic professional handheld camcorder at a comparable price point, but it was marketed through the consumer/stills division. So it looks like the HC-X1 is in a similar situation. From what I have been able to determine, the primary differences are, as Terry said, that they're pretty much the same camera except the UX-180 adds the 3G-SDI port and the timecode i/o port. I don't know what the differences in price or warranty will be.

Bassman2003
09-08-2016, 01:01 PM
Terry,

Do you have any idea if we will see and future P2 camera out of Panasonic? It seems they have abandoned the format and codecs that are the strongest. Hearing that the UX180 is from the professional division is encouraging. Does the UX prefix mean the same as PX just ultra-high def? Thanks

nutmegger
09-08-2016, 02:34 PM
Barry, B&H has the HC-X1 listed at $3,199.99USD and the UX180 at $3795USD.

Terry Nixon
09-08-2016, 02:51 PM
yes, all three cameras have the same one year warranty.

Occassionally, Panasonic Photo and Camcorder (not Panasonic Professional) products will be offered with a Promotional 3 Year Warranty:

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/camera/warranty/panasonic_lumix_extended_warranty_offer_april_2016 _to_march_2017.pdf

there is a registration requirement and you must buy from an Authorized Panasonic Imaging Dealer:

116721
116722

dnavas
09-09-2016, 11:17 PM
I'm going to assume this is for Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psPH67tGcMA

"The price for the UX-180 will be under 3800 euros and it will be available 16th of November. And for the UX90, the price will be under 2300 euros and the availability will be October." -Luc Bara

nutmegger
09-10-2016, 06:27 PM
B&H is now listing the price of the UX180 at $3495USD. The price reduction makes the UX180 more compelling even if TC is not needed.

Ron Evans
09-10-2016, 06:36 PM
AG-UX180 difference of $300 for HD-SDI and Timecode compared to the HC-X1 may be worth it. A more reasonable price difference between the models. $3495 for the UX-180 and $3199.99 for the HC-X1. The AG-UX90 is listed as $2095 indicating a much lower model in the range.

Jarek Zabczynski
09-10-2016, 06:38 PM
Is there anyway to get TC in/out of the UX90? Maybe via the wireless app? I just can't see the justification of being labeled "professional" without TC capabilities.

And seriously? RCA connectors in 2016? Seems like a "Well we're taking away TC, what else can we put there instead?"

They should just put back the TC and SDI. Smaller lens and lesser format recording capabilities is enough to label it as the little brother camera.

Barry_Green
09-11-2016, 10:35 PM
AG-UX180 difference of $300 for HD-SDI and Timecode compared to the HC-X1 may be worth it.
The SDI is "3G-SDI", not "HD-SDI". HD-SDI supports 720/60p and 1080/60i, but 3G-SDI supports 1080/60p.


The AG-UX90 is listed as $2095 indicating a much lower model in the range.
The UX90 is definitely a very different model, as the numbering would indicate. It is more of a situation like the AC-90 vs. AC-160. Panasonic's numbering has generally been consistent within a model family; the AC130 was a lot closer to the AC160 than the AC90 was to the AC160, for example. So when models are being introduced at the same time, you can look at the numbers to get a decent idea of how they relate to each other, and the price tags seem to indicate the same. Of course, when you cross model lines (like comparing AG- cameras to AJ-cameras) or companies (professional/broadcast division AG-UX vs. consumer division HC-X1) then the comparison doesn't work, and if too much time has elapsed then the comparison doesn't work (i.e., HC-X1000 vs. HC-X1; the X1000 is not 1000 times the camera the HC-X1 is!) But when they're introduced at the same time (like the AC 90 vs. 130 vs. 160, or the UX90 vs. UX180 vs. DVX200) then the model numbers are usually an indicator as to where each sits in the respective pecking order.

Barry_Green
09-11-2016, 10:41 PM
Is there anyway to get TC in/out of the UX90? Maybe via the wireless app? I just can't see the justification of being labeled "professional" without TC capabilities.
Many professional Panasonics haven't had TC in/out capabilities; usually the low-end models don't have it. No idea if the app would allow it or not.


And seriously? RCA connectors in 2016? Seems like a "Well we're taking away TC, what else can we put there instead?"
These cameras are sold worldwide. There are still huge swaths of the world for which RCA is relevant. You may recall that a few years ago Panasonic removed SD from one of their models, it was HD-only. The outcry from the stations who produce content for the billions of people who live in SD-only was significant, so they re-introduced SD and now all their current models offer SD recording. A DVX200 or UX-180 can record 4K, or HD 1080p, or HD 1080i, or HD 720p, or even standard-def PAL or NTSC interlaced video, even though many/most of us would consider standard-def long since obsolete. But the reality is that there are still territories where these things are very relevant.


They should just put back the TC and SDI. Smaller lens and lesser format recording capabilities is enough to label it as the little brother camera.
That isn't the way it works. The UX90 is not a UX180 that's had some ports snipped off. There are substantial differences between the cameras, as reflected in their price tags. The UX90 is what it needs to be, to hit that price point. If you want TC in/out and SDI, that's what the UX180 is for (and, while paying for the UX180, you'll also get a longer lens, 20x instead of 15x, and a wider FOV in 4k/UHD, among other improvements). The difference in price tags reflects the difference in capability between the cameras.

tsioukas
09-12-2016, 01:23 AM
And seriously? RCA connectors in 2016?

I agree with Barry and I will add this. I am on live streaming area and from my experience some clients need to send video signal on a video wall or a tv monitor/projector. The cheap way is the tv/projector (on video wall solution we use our machines) and as far as I know there is no projector that accept SDI input. So due HDMI length limitations the only way to send image is the SD composite way.

Maybe you will never use SD on your office/home but it will useful for a lot of years I think.

Ron Evans
09-12-2016, 05:10 AM
3G-SDI. Yes I did know that just my typing !!! Was focused on the fact it does go to HD when it is recording UHD60P? 3G-SDI does not support UHD 60P that is 12G-SDI, 6G-SDI for UHD 30P and 3G_SDI for 1080at 60P. Will be great if it really does work as you say as that would make a combination with an ATOMOS Inferno really good. THough if the HC-X1 is the same it would be more cost effective as to get UHD60P out it would have to be the HDMI anyway.

Ron Evans

Camera Expert
09-19-2016, 08:41 AM
So the GH5 will be able to shoot in 4K at 10 bit and 4:2:2. If only Panasonic would do the same to the UX180.

dnavas
09-19-2016, 12:13 PM
So the GH5 will be able to shoot in 4K at 10 bit and 4:2:2. If only Panasonic would do the same to the UX180.


Well, the GH5 isn't shipping yet. I can live with products in the farther future being better than other products in the nearer future.
But I do feel like a case could be made for output parity with the GH4....

Sumfun
09-19-2016, 10:39 PM
So the GH5 will be able to shoot in 4K at 10 bit and 4:2:2. If only Panasonic would do the same to the UX180.


I agree! Especially since the UX180 is a dedicated video camera and (probably) costs at least twice as much as the GH5, it should at least be able to output 10-bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder. Or better yet, be able to record it like the GH5. I think Panny is probably trying to protect the DVX200 market. But this may lead some people to buy the GH5 instead of the UX180 - depending upon what features are important to them.

But then again, we haven't seen any footage yet from either camera, so we don't know how big a difference it will be.

dnavas
09-20-2016, 09:43 AM
...it should at least be able to output 10-bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder. [snip] I think Panny is probably trying to protect the DVX200 market.

I am also surprised by that. I had expected 10bit output on the UX180, and 8-bit output on the HC-X1. The DVX-200 retains V-Log, which is a marketable advantage (it's a paid upgrade on the GH4/5 as well). The -200 is likely to have better resolving power and low-light performance given its larger sensor as well, so really I don't think that Panasonic has to protect the DVX-200 from its down-market children. If that were a concern, surely the threat the GH5 supposedly makes on UX180 sales is even greater against the DVX-200?

firehawk
09-20-2016, 05:37 PM
No 10 bit 4:2:2 output is disappointing.

nutmegger
10-18-2016, 05:11 AM
There is a review of the UX90 at www.redsharknews.com

tsioukas
10-18-2016, 11:03 AM
First Video of the UX90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrGKDNCgoAc

Picture is nice and with very good colors.

Gweilo66
10-23-2016, 01:05 PM
..and outdoors, of course ;)

tsioukas
10-23-2016, 02:04 PM
Ι don't like noise here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtRXfYSmJsg

I think that they can do berrer with shutter speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1uAjQ0wnLc

A lot of problems with color mix under tree branches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXcDdZQcq94

Good auto focus here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivh_EBt97Ag

And finally I hope that UX180 can perform better.

davedv
10-23-2016, 09:02 PM
According to the specs the UX90 has a pretty significant sensor crop when shooting 4K or Ultra HD (about 1.44x crop factor which means that only about half of the sensor area ends up being used compared to shooting HD). The UX180 uses the same sensor area whether shooting HD or Ultra HD.

So it seems like the noise performance when shooting 4K should be better for the UX180 compared to the UX90. And given the specs, it seems like the two cameras probably have different sensors (not to mention different lenses), so the UX90 and UX180 may end up performing quite a bit differently.

Although we'll have to wait for tests of both cameras to know for sure.

tsioukas
10-23-2016, 11:10 PM
So it seems like the noise performance when shooting 4K should be better for the UX180 compared to the UX90. And given the specs, it seems like the two cameras probably have different sensors (not to mention different lenses), so the UX90 and UX180 may end up performing quite a bit differently.

I hope for that, because I was waiting for a lot of months to choose between UX180 & Sony Z150. If performance of UX180 is the same, I will choose Z150 (with all the limitations that it have).

Camera Expert
10-25-2016, 02:12 PM
Here's a hands on video of the UX90 that I found.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moUA3jqmUYs

Camera Expert
10-25-2016, 02:23 PM
8 Bit 4:2:2 output.
8 Bit 4:2:0 internal recording.
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux180.pdf

118031

Barry_Green
10-25-2016, 03:24 PM
From reading the brochures, it looks like the UX180 and HC-X1 use the same sensor, while the UX90 uses a different one. The sensors on the UX180 and HC-X1 both have 8.79 Mpixels for UHD and FHD modes, and 9.46 Mpixels for 4k mode. But the sensor on the UX90 has 17.78 Mpixels for FHD mode, and only 8.59 Mpixels for UHD mode. So the UX90 significantly crops the sensor when going from FHD to UHD (similar to what the DVX200 does, but the DVX200 has a larger sensor). This is also confirmed by the lens, which has a (35mm equivalent) wide angle focal length of 24.5mm at FHD, but 35.4mm at UHD. On the other hand, the UX180 and HC-X1 uses the full sensor for 4k, and slightly crops for UHD and FHD. This is also confirmed by the lens that goes from 24mm at 4k to 25.4mm at UHD and FHD.

I have had a chance to test both the UX90 and the UX180 now, and while I don't have confirmation from the factory, my initial impression is that Sumfun is probably right here. The UX90 and the UX180 are NOT the same camera. The UX180 is about a full f-stop faster, and has a much wider FOV when shooting UHD, and it supports UHD at 50/60p. They're obviously quite different.

As far as the external camera body goes, the UX90 and UX180 pretty much share the same body other than the SDI port and the viewfinders. But under the hood there's a significant difference. I would definitely say that nobody should be using UX90 footage to gauge UX180 performance, and nobody should go looking at UX180 images and think that the UX90 will deliver the same images, because - they won't.


So in my opinion, the UX180 and the HC-X1 are the two cameras that should be classified in the same family, while the UX90 should be in a different family. But who am I to say? :smile:

That actually seems downright reasonable, based on my experimentation with a very early UX180 and a pretty-far-along UX90. But I haven't seen an HC-X1 so cannot speak to that.

Barry_Green
10-25-2016, 03:28 PM
So it seems like the noise performance when shooting 4K should be better for the UX180 compared to the UX90. And given the specs, it seems like the two cameras probably have different sensors (not to mention different lenses), so the UX90 and UX180 may end up performing quite a bit differently.


I hope for that, because I was waiting for a lot of months to choose between UX180 & Sony Z150. If performance of UX180 is the same, I will choose Z150 (with all the limitations that it have).

Well, I can confirm that the UX180 and UX90 definitely perform differently. Quite a bit differently. But, the UX180 I saw was a very very early prototype so I cannot make any definitive judgements on it at this time; we'll have to wait for a unit that's more representative of what the shipping models will be.

dnavas
10-26-2016, 09:46 AM
The UX180 is about a full f-stop faster, and has a much wider FOV when shooting UHD...

A full stop faster in UHD, or in HD as well? I'd expect a stop in UHD given the smaller area the UX90 is using...?

That said, I'm more concerned with the chromatic fringing I see in some of those shots. I thought the DVX200 was better behaved in this respect, although I suppose the finer pixels on the smaller arc of the sensor makes this worse? [or maybe there's just a lot of digital zooming on those shots]


the UX180 I saw was a very very early prototype

Hmm, bhphoto is saying November, but if what's available is very, very early prototypes, post-Thanksgiving/Christmas seems more likely :sigh:

dnavas
11-01-2016, 12:13 PM
Low-light on the UX-90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nLuXNJpyBY
Unboxing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWgor55Pbfw
indoor and outdoor footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygSXOt4pr8c

Terry Nixon
11-02-2016, 12:37 PM
Looks like we have a couple of the Panasonic AG-UX90 cameras arriving tomorrow:

Panasonic AG-UX90 $2095 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX90-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6848.html)

118265 (http://www.texasmediasystems.com/panasonic-leasing.php)

118266 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX90-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6848.html)

Camera Expert
11-03-2016, 11:55 AM
Any expected date on when the UX180 or the HC-X1 might be available?

slidemaster
11-03-2016, 12:07 PM
X2! For me and what I do it seems better than the DVX200.

Terry Nixon
11-03-2016, 12:16 PM
AG-UX180 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX180-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6847.html) ETA is Dec 2016.

AG-UX90 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX90-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6848.html) started shipping today.

118285

Camera Expert
11-04-2016, 11:47 PM
That's what I was afraid of.

Anyone knows if this is compatible with 256GB SDXC cards? On the specs, I only see up to 128GB.

Ron Evans
11-05-2016, 06:36 AM
I would like to know the difference between the AG-UX180 and the HC-X1. If it is just SDI and timecode connectors then I would be happy with the HC-X1 for $300 difference. It would be different if the SDI was 12G but as it is only 3G SDI, external recording of UHD may only be through the HDMI anyway. Would be $300 towards an Atomos Inferno.

tsioukas
11-05-2016, 08:16 AM
That's what I was afraid of.

Anyone knows if this is compatible with 256GB SDXC cards? On the specs, I only see up to 128GB.

From UX90 operation manual, I believe UX180 have the same specs


SDHC Memory Card : 4 GB to 32 GB
SDXC Memory Card : 48 GB to 128 GB

This unit is compatible with UHS-I UHS Speed Class3 standard SDHC/SDXC Memory Cards.

MOV/MP4 > VFR Mode, 100 Mbps > UHS Speed Class3
MOV/MP4 > 50 Mbps > UHS Speed Class1 or more, Class10 or more
AVCHD > Recording function or Recording format : All -> Class4 or more

kplo
11-05-2016, 10:50 AM
I was really liking this camera at the price point, despite the f/4.5 lens ramping...BUT:
720P at only 8mbs????
Does Pana not realize that 720p is still a broadcast standard?
I sure hope this is a simple firmware fix. If I want what amounts to a proxy recording, my NLE can do that.
Ken

davedv
11-05-2016, 11:46 AM
The DVX200 specs say the same thing in terms of SD cards:
SDHC memory card (4 GB to 32 GB)
SDXC memory card (48 GB to 128 GB)

But that camera works just fine with 256GB cards, so I would be surprised if the UX90 and UX180 were any different.

The SDXC card standards are supposed to be able to accommodate cards with capacities from 64GB up to 2TB.

dnavas
11-07-2016, 08:21 AM
But [the DVX200] works just fine with 256GB cards, so I would be surprised if the UX90 and UX180 were any different.

That would seem a reasonable assumption to me as well, though I decided a pair of 128s was better than a single 256 (plus another at some later date). YMMV.
Any idea as to whether the same batteries are likely to work? I'm kind of hoping that the IDX batteries will. It seems likely given that they work on the DVX200 and HC-X1000, but one never knows with 3rd parties.

Barry_Green
11-07-2016, 10:02 AM
If a battery works on the DVX200, it will also work on the UX90 and UX180.

Old DVX100-compatible batteries will not work on the DVX200 or UX90/UX180. The HC-X1000 is unique in that it can work with the old and new batteries, but the newer camcorders use only the new batteries.

nutmegger
11-10-2016, 08:13 AM
Got to check out the UX180 at NAB NY. Panny had an "engineering" model on display. The 180 appears to be okay, not great. Compared the 180 to the Sony Z150. Preferred the Z150 LCD display. It was brighter, contrastier, and appeared sharper.

dnavas
11-10-2016, 10:29 AM
Got to check out the UX180 at NAB NY. Panny had an "engineering" model on display. The 180 appears to be okay, not great. Compared the 180 to the Sony Z150. Preferred the Z150 LCD display. It was brighter, contrastier, and appeared sharper.

The sharpness isn't surprising, given the Sony has 1.56M vs UX180's 1.15M pixels. It is a shame the UX180 doesn't carry over the DVX200's LCD.

Presumably shots on the HC-X1 will be comparable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E63iR2JBHtQ though I can't say this video tells me very much about output quality. I assume there isn't an opportunity to snatch one for a day :)

Barry_Green
11-10-2016, 05:27 PM
It's a little hard for me to see how the Z150 compares to the UX180. The Z150 is a 12x lens, the UX180 is a 20x. The Z150 can't shoot, output, or record 4K at all, and it only does UHD up to 30p; the UX180 has the Cinema 4K/24p mode and it shoots UHD at up to 60p.

The only advantage I can see to the Z150 at all is that it records 1080p at 10-bit (but even then, only at 50mbps). The UX180 doesn't do 10-bit at all, but it does go up to 200mbps.

I'd much rather have a 10-bit recording format than an 8-bit one, sure, but I wouldn't give up a 20x lens (with a wide-angle of 24mm) or UHD/60p to get it.

nutmegger
11-10-2016, 06:04 PM
One reason I was comparing the two is they are close in price. Granted the 180 has a longer zoom. Not all of us need a 20x lens. I'm hoping someone can do an image quality comparison when the 180 ships. The video Doug Jensen posted a couple of months ago of the Z150 is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA4CG6pXX6M

Harry Pallenberg
11-10-2016, 09:08 PM
The only advantage I can see to the Z150 at all is that it records 1080p at 10-bit (but even then, only at 50mbps). The UX180 doesn't do 10-bit at all, but it does go up to 200mbps.

I'd much rather have a 10-bit recording format than an 8-bit one, sure, but I wouldn't give up a 20x lens (with a wide-angle of 24mm) or UHD/60p to get it.

The other advantage is that the Z150 is out now ;) I soooo wish the 180 or HCX-1000 would hurry up! Seriously the 24mm wide 20x lens is gonna be sweet.

firehawk
11-11-2016, 07:36 AM
I soooo wish the 180 or HCX-1000 would hurry up! Seriously the 24mm wide 20x lens is gonna be sweet.

I am excited about the UX180 as well. Too bad it can't use the old and new DVX style batteries like the HC X1000. That was a great idea!
No way I am going to pre-order it though. Curious to see how good the production model does

Ron Evans
11-11-2016, 07:59 AM
The other advantage is that the Z150 is out now ;) I soooo wish the 180 or HCX-1000 would hurry up! Seriously the 24mm wide 20x lens is gonna be sweet.

All my cameras are currently Sony and I was hoping the Z150 would have UHD60P it was off the list when that didn't happen. I have a FDR-AX1 but was looking for similar spec but with better sensor and the AG-UX180 or HC-X1 fit this requirement I think but the Z150 does not. I do not think you can compare them. Z150 to the AG-UX90 may be a better comparison and I think the Z150 may win that comparison other than price.

benne13
11-11-2016, 08:27 AM
Video posted today of both UX90 and UX180 Footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njqcXVhJoAk

tsioukas
11-11-2016, 09:11 AM
UX180 looks cleaner than UX90. Colors are the same. In 20x UX180 looses for a sec the focus. Very good footage.

The image quality convinced me. I am waiting to read the operation manual of UX180. I have already read UX90 and I didn't find something that I didn't like, except video output that it doesn't have 720p (usefull for live streamlining without to speed CPU power) and at this time it doesn't have Android APP.

dnavas
11-11-2016, 09:23 AM
Video posted today of both UX90 and UX180 Footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njqcXVhJoAk

Thanks for the footage. Wish it was cut better, though -- looks like it was down-sampled in both resolution and frame frequency.

Barry_Green
11-11-2016, 09:37 AM
UX180 looks cleaner than UX90.
The UX180 is definitely substantially cleaner than the UX90. The camera internals are not the same between the two.


I have already read UX90 and I didn't find something that I didn't like, except video output that it doesn't have 720p (usefull for live streamlining without to speed CPU power)
The UX90 can definitely output 720p live. I've done it. Put the camera in 720p mode and set the video output to "SYSTEM" and it will output 720p. The UX180 is the same.


and at this time it doesn't have Android APP.
That, unfortunately, is true, and I don't know if it ever will have. I have to buy a refurbished iPad from Best Buy. It's $179, so it's not THAT big of a deal. Slightly annoying, but considering I paid $465 for my FOXI remote focus/iris control, really $179 to have full remote control ability is a no-brainer. Would be convenient if they'd make an Android app, but they don't, so I'm just choking down buying the iPad as if it was a remote device and in that context it's cheap and easy to justify.

firehawk
11-11-2016, 09:45 AM
Do the old panasonic zoom focus iris controllers not work with the ux180 and 90?

Does anyone know if the 180 can do smooth zoom starts and stops ?

tsioukas
11-11-2016, 09:58 AM
The UX90 can definitely output 720p live. I've done it. Put the camera in 720p mode and set the video output to "SYSTEM" and it will output 720p. The UX180 is the same.


Yes, sorry, I didn't explain it well. I mean when you record UHD or FullHD at the same time. It just have down conversion to 576/50.00p.


That, unfortunately, is true, and I don't know if it ever will have.

They release iPAD app in the start of 2016. For a company with the size of Panasonic yes they are late to release Android app. I hope that this isn’t a technical problem because app works only in iPAD and not in iPhone.

118466

benne13
11-11-2016, 11:43 AM
Does the UX90 shoot FD 60fps? I know it doesn't shoot UHD 60fps only 30fps so I was wondering about FD? I'm just looking for a camera to match my GH4 60fps quality for sporting events.

davedv
11-11-2016, 06:22 PM
Yes the UX90 can shoot Full HD 1080p @ 60fps. It seems like the UX90 is not a world camera though, so there are separate models for the NTSC (60 fps) and PAL (50 fps) regions. Which means that the version of the UX90 sold in Europe will max out at 50 fps in HD and 25 fps in UHD.

From what I can tell, the UX180 is a world camera and is switchable between 50p and 60p recording. The Panasonic HC-X1 also seems to be system frequency switchable between 50 and 60p.

Barry_Green
11-11-2016, 07:46 PM
Do the old panasonic zoom focus iris controllers not work with the ux180 and 90?
Yes, they all do. But the ROP app controls much more than just focus, zoom, and iris.


Does anyone know if the 180 can do smooth zoom starts and stops ?
Depends on how hard you press the zoom button. If you're slamming it to full speed, it'll lurch into action. If you gently press the zoom lever, you'll have an extremely smooth zoom start.

Barry_Green
11-11-2016, 07:49 PM
Yes, sorry, I didn't explain it well. I mean when you record UHD or FullHD at the same time. It just have down conversion to 576/50.00p.. Ah, yes, you are correct on that.




They release iPAD app in the start of 2016. For a company with the size of Panasonic yes they are late to release Android app. I hope that this isn’t a technical problem because app works only in iPAD and not in iPhone.
All I can tell you is that I've been watching this company for a decade, and they really don't "do" software. I would not hold out hopes that they will make the app iPhone-compatible, or android-compatible. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. All I can tell you is that as of today, the app is available, and it works on the iPad, and -- that's it. Because of that, I'm planning on having to get an iPad to use it.

Will things change in the future? Will they have an iPhone version? Will they have an Android version? I have no idea. But it doesn't exist today, and I don't know if it ever will exist, so -- I'm saying don't count on it. If they do it, it's a nice surprise. But generally, Panasonic doesn't do a lot of software development.

Barry_Green
11-11-2016, 07:50 PM
Yes the UX90 can shoot Full HD 1080p @ 60fps. It seems like the UX90 is not a world camera though, so there are separate models for the NTSC (60 fps) and PAL (50 fps) regions. Which means that the version of the UX90 sold in Europe will max out at 50 fps in HD and 25 fps in UHD.

From what I can tell, the UX180 is a world camera and is switchable between 50p and 60p recording.
This is all correct.


The Panasonic HC-X1 also seems to be system frequency switchable between 50 and 60p.
Can't say, don't know anything about the HC-X1.

Camera Expert
11-11-2016, 09:13 PM
One of the many videos I did at NAB New York. I went to New York all the way from Boston by bus. Once I'm their, I had to walk a lot and take a train and so I was a bit tired and decided to use 1 channel of my AC90 built in mic instead of the shutgun mic. Oops! I did that for the first 2 interviews. Ah well. I still used the shutgun for the rest of the inteviews. Besides, this was the first time using a shutgun mic on the AC90. Also, please disregard the shutgun mic flapping at the top. I noticed it during the shoot and decided to keep the clip rather than do it over again. It was sticking out a little bit too much for that first video.

Anyway, I'm actually going to do a review on the UX90 once I get it. I'll be comparing it to my AC90. I'll be doing some other kind of testings as well. I might also get to test the UX180 when it comes out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqxYBS-PP8g&index=1&list=PLfiUWslpPfwz_ejrjndcRg533mARu0Qq8

dnavas
11-11-2016, 09:34 PM
Anyway, I'm actually going to do a review on the UX90 once I get it. I'll be comparing it to my AC90. I'll be doing some other kind of testings as well. I might also get to test the UX180 when it comes out.

Awesome, I'll look forward to that! Nice scoop. I guess "next couple of weeks" means some time after Thanksgiving, especially as most folks are quoting December. In the meantime, the fortunate few have been given access, lucky so-and-so-s :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAT0yqHGrFk

I think that looks pretty good, but I certainly don't have any kind of expert eye.

Ron Evans
11-12-2016, 06:07 AM
A question for Barry. The information says that the gain can be set in 3 positions but there doesn't appear to be the classic gain switch. Also however the gain is switched does it switch smoothly which is important when it has to be switched when shooting. Something I like about my NX5U.

Barry_Green
11-12-2016, 11:06 AM
Yeah, the gain is different on these cameras, there is no switch. There's a gain button, and you can assign three positions to three user buttons, and you can use the wheel to set gain in 1dB increments. So:
1) You can use the gain button, and set to to cycle between OFF/LOW/MID/HIGH.
2) You can assign the LOW/MID/HIGH functions to user buttons. That way it works just like the switch would have, but it takes up three of your user buttons to do it that way.
3) You can use the onscreen GAIN function with the wheel, and that way you can dial in exactly what gain you want.

So the control is all there, it's just done differently than from a switch.

Ron Evans
11-12-2016, 11:24 AM
If the gain is changed does it move smoothly between settings whether it is by button or wheel? With my NX5U I like the fact I can switch from 0 to 6db and the camera will move this slowly and give me time to manually change iris if I need to compensate a little with no abrupt changes. This works fine even if the iris is in auto with AE shift and I would just like to move the iris range to a different point by moving gain up or down. I hope you are writing a book on the UX180 as I am really thinking of getting one when they come out later this year.

Barry_Green
11-12-2016, 11:58 AM
Yes it is very smooth and gradual.

Ron Evans
11-12-2016, 02:07 PM
Thanks Barry. Does the zoom control also have a nice start and stop ramp ?

Barry_Green
11-12-2016, 03:34 PM
Yes in my opinion. Much better than the older cameras like the AC130/160 or HVX200 series.

Bassman2003
11-12-2016, 08:35 PM
Thanks for posting both of the videos with UX180 footage. I think it looks pretty good. I prefer it over the DVX200 since the blacks are not crushed. I would like to see how much you can shape the image as the highlights in these videos look a bit strained and under saturated in areas. I like to have the DRS function engaged on my PX270 and wonder how closely the two could be matched. I know if I would ever decide to get a 4k camera like the UX180 I am sure they will announce the P2 version the next day... I just would rather stay in 10bit land with 24bit audio. And I need a 720p60 mode. Come on Panasonic. It is still useful for a fair number of jobs.

dnavas
11-12-2016, 10:19 PM
I know if I would ever decide to get a 4k camera like the UX180 I am sure they will announce the P2 version the next day...

It's difficult to not imagine a higher spec'd 4k camera in the future. :)


I just would rather stay in 10bit land with 24bit audio.

The UX180 is already, in many ways, more camera than I need and/or can master, but it is also one of the first with the features I've been waiting for (which is why I have it on pre-order, and why I've been reading Barry's DVX200 pdf). Like you, I need better audio recording, but that's relatively easy to work around. If I was in need of 10bit as well, I'd probably just wait for the GH5 and/or the inevitable camcorder that follows it (UX270?).

tsioukas
11-12-2016, 10:47 PM
New Footage, there is somethink that I don't like on that but I don't know what :), it seems a little "blurry".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVBcjvbcLU

Bassman2003
11-13-2016, 05:48 AM
It's difficult to not imagine a higher spec'd 4k camera in the future. :)



The UX180 is already, in many ways, more camera than I need and/or can master, but it is also one of the first with the features I've been waiting for (which is why I have it on pre-order, and why I've been reading Barry's DVX200 pdf). Like you, I need better audio recording, but that's relatively easy to work around. If I was in need of 10bit as well, I'd probably just wait for the GH5 and/or the inevitable camcorder that follows it (UX270?).

Well imagine is the key word for now! The AF-100 folks are still hoping. I agree but do not know the economics behind the different models. Panasonic does seem to be targeting the $3,500 and under area rather than the $5,000 segment where the better codecs are. I do not want to shoot 4k for every project so I would want to match the 1080p 10bit & 24bit audio. Not every job needs all of that resolution or backup space. I would guess if something is in the works it might be announced at NAB but not delivered until the end of summer.

Ron Evans
11-13-2016, 06:39 AM
Always difficult to say how YouTube videos were shot and what processing they went through in editing since all these videos were edited and re-encoded for sure. UHD is VERY critical of focus. Nice to see some samples but I think a full review is needed sometime to get at the details. Paired with a Shogun Infero and you could get both higher quality encoder, nice monitor and audio. If the UX180 outputs UHD60P from the HDMI when it is in standby this combination would be very good. If the HC-X1 is only different by not providing SDI and timcode connectors it would be a better choice with the Inferno and save $300. That would still be good combination for the total price with a lot of capability. What would you have to pay for a 20x zoom , DCI 4K and UHD 60P . Either the now getting old PXW-Z100 with 1/3" sensor still listed as more than the UX180, or move into the FS7, URSA range !!! Can you actually get a 20x zoom for that range for less than the price of your car !!! I think Canon has one for around $70,000. I can hear lots say " well you just change lens " Not in the middle of a performance in the dark you wouldn't !!! It is the combination of features that make the UX180 attractive. I shoot from the back of a theatre so like the ability to get really wide and pickup whole stage and more as well as get close into a face on stage. So wide angle and zoom range is important.

dnavas
11-13-2016, 12:07 PM
Always difficult to say how YouTube videos were shot and what processing they went through in editing since all these videos were edited and re-encoded for sure.

Bob's review was re-encoded at 40mbps in Corel VideoStudio, but I think his vids were the cleanest I've seen. Youtube makes a hash of fhd anyway, so it's hard to say.


UHD is VERY critical of focus.

Which is why it's sad that the expand focus assist isn't there while recording, especially with the lower resolution LCD screen. Of course, if you really choose to use an outboard recorder, you may be in luck there as well!

Ron Evans
11-13-2016, 01:54 PM
I use the expanded focus a lot with my NX5U but I rely on touch focus for a lot of the cameras ( AX100 ,AX53 and NX30U) and for my FDR-AX1 in UHD60P I find auto focus more reliable than manual focus for some reason and wish it had touch focus which I will use more I think if I get the UX180 or HC-X1 !! I currently have a 5" BM video assist which is a nice monitor. Yes the videos do look clean. I am not a fan of slow frame rates so for me it is 60P. The UX180 would be fine to take an SDI output to the BM video assist for FHD but for UHD I think it would default to FHD with UHD internal recording. Since the 3G SDI will only be HD anyway HDMI is the only output for UHD so the HC-X1 is just as good as UX180 in that regard. My dilemma of the choice between them favoring the HC-X1 at the moment until I find out if there are any other differences.

tsioukas
11-13-2016, 02:11 PM
Nice review of UX90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0OumHiWOW8

firehawk
11-13-2016, 02:50 PM
Looks like I'm leaning toward the HC-X1 over the UX180 now, unless some other differences show up. Somehow I had overlooked how similar they were before

Ron Evans
11-13-2016, 03:08 PM
Nice review of UX90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0OumHiWOW8

He came to the same conclusions as I did based on the available information. If you want UHD60P the HC-X1 may be a better choice than the UX180 and at the moment gives $300 towards an Inferno !! If the UX180 had a 12G SDI the choice may be different. But 3G SDI ( meaning HD at 60P ) the HC-X1 is a better choice.

True North
11-13-2016, 10:47 PM
I find the HC-1X to be such an odd production and branding decision by Panasonic. In the UX90 review, it appears that in the UK their is an even larger gap (900 quid) between the price of the HC-X1 and the UX180 than in the US. Unless you have a real need for an SDI and time code connection it seems like an absolute no brainer to get the HC-X1 in the UK. The US pricing seems to make a little more sense as they have made the UX180 only $300 more than the HC-X1.

tsioukas
11-13-2016, 11:21 PM
I believe that they have a marketing problem when they announced UX180 and UX90 in April. They want to create 2 cameras one with SDI/HDMI and better zoom and one with HDMI. But they announce the prices (UX180 under 4000$) and (UX90 under 3000$).

But they forgot that the AG-DVX200 have lower price in the market so if they give a price of UX180 near 4000 they would have a problem because UX180, except the bigger sensor, is better. So they create a type of camera without SDI and similar characteristics of UX180 and normal price.

This is the only logical explanation that I give, and of course until we see the operation instructions to see exactly the difference between HC-X1 and UX180. Maybe HC-X1 have a lot of limitations.

davedv
11-13-2016, 11:36 PM
That is kind of strange. Looking at the prices for all 3 cameras, the UK prices for the UX90 and UX180 pretty closely match the US prices (UK prices are a couple hundred dollars higher at current exchange rates):
http://cvp.com/index.php?t=category/Panasonic%20UX180%20UX90%20HC-X1

But the HC-X1 at current prices in the UK would come out at around $2700 or almost $500 cheaper than the current US list price of $3199.

I wonder if there's a pricing mistake in there somewhere.

tsioukas
11-14-2016, 12:04 AM
Street prices are almost lower than list prices. Some companies before the release they set for preorders list prices and after release they recalculate how much can win from each product. This company have low price for HC-X1 but high price for UX180 ($ 4375). But street price for both will be lower than current prices.

And of course you have to calculate the exchanges, after US elections they have a lot of up and down in currencies.

dnavas
11-14-2016, 06:15 AM
This company have low price for HC-X1 but high price for UX180 ($ 4375).

$4400 is including VAT. £2917 is $3651, which is a very similar price to the $3500 it's available for for pre-order in the US.

The HC-X1E implies it isn't a world camera (ed: although the quoted specs disagree with that implication). Given I'm facing upgrading all of my hardware to handle 4k editing, this definitely gives me pause.

tsioukas
11-14-2016, 07:11 AM
$4400 is including VAT. £2917 is $3651, which is a very similar price to the $3500 it's available for for pre-order in the US.

Does list price $3500 includes VAT or not? For example B&H with price $3495, includes VAT?

dnavas
11-14-2016, 08:49 AM
Does list price $3500 includes VAT or not? For example B&H with price $3495, includes VAT?

Short answer, no. There is no VAT in US, only sales tax, and that's charged at the state level. B&H doesn't collect sales tax for states other than NY (where they are required to because they operate in that state).

tsioukas
11-14-2016, 09:06 AM
Interesting, I didn't know that :). Unfortunately here in Europe UK have 20% VAT and in my country (Greece) 24% :(. Thanks

Camera Expert
11-14-2016, 05:34 PM
It decided to come during the time I need to finish editing a video gig. I'll want to get some of it done before I get to play with this new toy which is why I only took a picture of the box. I have it until November 28 anyway so more than enough time. I got my AC90 handy to compare it to and theirs some events coming up that I'd like to use the camera on. We'll see what kind of other testings I'll be doing. It'll all be going on YouTube. Anyone live around the Boston area and have a double head stabilizer that I can borrow for a day? Basically something that would allow me to walk and use 2 camcorders at the same time.

Hopefully I'll be able to also test the UX180.

118519

dnavas
11-16-2016, 07:24 AM
I look forward with some eagerness to reports from the field. In the meantime, slashcam is out with a review of the UX180 (https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Panasonic-AG-UX180---Eine-fuer-Alle-.html). (I wonder if there's a more appropriate venue than an announcement thread?)
The 12lux shot in 25fps is interesting and perhaps somewhat disappointing to anyone hoping to capture 4k in low-light and blow-up in post. The specs indicate a limit of .2lux in 2fps using 18db at 2.8 (rather than the F4 and 12db that the test shots were taken at). Maybe, but not without limitations. The 12lux shot in 48fps from their DVX200 review makes for an interesting comparison (visibly dimmer with more noise), though it's clearly not an apples-apples comparison.
The described aperture ramp seems to be shallower with a slightly earlier start (if I'm translating correctly). 3.6 at 50mm and 4.0 at 90mm is very different from the DVX200's of 55 and 65 respectively.
Resolving appears to be similar to the DVX200 in 4k60p mode, although how similar is difficult to tell. It is quite clearly not as good as the -200 is at resolving in 24p (nor would I expect it to be).

tsioukas
11-16-2016, 07:34 AM
I see this shot before but it confused me. In previews videos of UX90 this noise doesn't appear (of course it's a youtube video). So I will wait to see more tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8IQ0DZVXo0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nLuXNJpyBY

Camera Expert
11-16-2016, 01:23 PM
I wonder if there's a more appropriate venue than an announcement thread?
I do think it's time to do a special section for the UX90, UX180 and HC-X1 camcorders just like the section for the AC90, AC130 and AC160 camcorders. The UX90 is already out while it wont be too long until the UX180 and HC-X1 comes out.

Camera Expert
11-16-2016, 01:25 PM
I finally got to try it a little bit. Compared to my AC90, it has a built in lens cap, strong ND filters (AC90 has them but would still need an extra ND filter for outdoor shooting or the shutter would be a bit on the high side), longer zoom lens and obviously shoots in 4K 24p and 30p.

It has a 1" chip and so that would in theory make the auto focusing worse than professional cameras with smaller chips but with the brief moments I had with it, it's actually pretty decent. I've only tried with inside the house and a tiny bit outside the house. Soon I'll be taking videos of indoor and outdoor events. With the AC90, the auto focusing is extremely good in that in many situations, you don't need to manual focus. We'll see how the UX90 does.

It has a hybrid stabilizer but unfortunately that only works with the HD modes. With the 4K mode, it's just an optical stabilizer. Maybe it'll work with the UX180 or HC-X1 because it supposedly uses more of the pixels in the chip for 4K.

I'll try to get some low light comparison samples against my AC90 up either today or tomorrow. I have yet to shoot anything.

Camera Expert
11-16-2016, 08:16 PM
2 questions.
How long can the battery of the UX90 last with the screen open?
The battery that came with the AC90 fits in the UX90. Would it be safe to use it?
I'll be shooting a video of a long event in a few days and I want to know if I'll have enough juice.

Camera Expert
11-17-2016, 01:18 AM
First video finally online. Just did it tonight. It compares the low light abilities of the AC90 and the UX90. 90 of the past compared to the 90 of the present. Both camcorders shot at 1080p60. I'll be posting future videos in 4K.

Could have posted videos earlier but I needed to do some editing on a big video gig I recently did the day before I received the camera. I didn't even open the box on the first 2 day because of that. I didn't want to get distracted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RfdiRop1y4&index=1&list=PLfiUWslpPfwxqRiTeFDUNY-DHI_zJkBHH

tsioukas
11-17-2016, 02:03 AM
For those that they need to read more info about UX90 features here are the operating instructions http://docdro.id/eZBxNLP

P.S. If someone find the UX180 operating instructions please inform us/me

dnavas
11-17-2016, 12:40 PM
First video [...] compares the low light abilities of the AC90 and the UX90.

It looks like some of those shots were paused to pad their lengths, which makes looking for noise trickier, but that looks like the UX90 is about a stop faster, maybe a hair more?
4k would definitely be appreciated, as youtube seems to do less compression on it.
Also, if you're having trouble shaking a UX180 out of Panny's tree (and I see B&H is now saying end of December for the delivery :sigh: ), maybe ask the 'other' side of the company for the HC-X1?

Barry_Green
11-17-2016, 12:59 PM
2 questions.
How long can the battery of the UX90 last with the screen open?
A pretty long time. The UX90 draws little power, especially as compared to the UX180. Should last about 7 hours, I think.


The battery that came with the AC90 fits in the UX90. Would it be safe to use it?
Have you tried it? I don't know what battery came with the AC90, but it's likely that it won't actually fit. If it fits, it should work.

Barry_Green
11-17-2016, 01:05 PM
It looks like some of those shots were paused to pad their lengths, which makes looking for noise trickier, but that looks like the UX90 is about a stop faster, maybe a hair more?
In my initial evaluation, I'd put the UX90 at 250 ISO. The AC90 is about 50 ISO. So that makes the UX90 about 2.25 stops faster than the AC90.

firehawk
11-17-2016, 02:12 PM
The ac90 uses the old dvx100 batteries.

Camera Expert
11-17-2016, 02:30 PM
Yes I did try using the AC90's battery and it attached perfectly. It was also able to turn the camera on. With that said, even 5 hours might be all I'll most likely need and so 7 hours would be perfect.

firehawk
11-17-2016, 05:08 PM
Yes I did try using the AC90's battery and it attached perfectly. It was also able to turn the camera on. With that said, even 5 hours might be all I'll most likely need and so 7 hours would be perfect.
Wow! Dont the UX180 and HC-X1 use the same batteries as the UX90, and therefore can use the old batteries?
Sure would be nice not to have to buy yet another type (and more expensive) of Panasonic battery when I have several of the old kinds still.

Camera Expert
11-17-2016, 11:01 PM
It looks like some of those shots were paused to pad their lengths, which makes looking for noise trickier, but that looks like the UX90 is about a stop faster, maybe a hair more?
4k would definitely be appreciated, as youtube seems to do less compression on it.
Also, if you're having trouble shaking a UX180 out of Panny's tree (and I see B&H is now saying end of December for the delivery :sigh: ), maybe ask the 'other' side of the company for the HC-X1?

Yeah I wanted to keep each shot to 5 seconds each. I basically adjusted the gain to what I wanted and hit record, take it off record to adjust and hit record again. This way I'd be able to have many clips and make it easier to edit.

Some of my future videos will be in 4K.

I actually did try to get either the HC-X1 as well. I contacted people dealing with both cameras but didn't have much luck and then I figured I might as well test something and they agreed to let me get the UX90. I had some good ideas for 4K60p. Still, since the cameras that are out are pre-production models, you never know what might happen during a shoot. I still can't complain since even being allowed to borrow the UX90 is a big deal. That alone is not an easy task. We'll see if I'll get lucky next month.

tsioukas
11-17-2016, 11:48 PM
Because on YouTube you can't understand noise on low light, maybe if it's possible to share somewhere small raw mp4 files (1-2sec each, without edit). To see real noise. Even on 100Mbps it will be 12.5-25mb per file.

Camera Expert
11-18-2016, 06:44 AM
Here's some native 4K30p videos going from 0 to 30 db.
https://we.tl/qE30LQRsI3
Shutter set to 60.

It crops a bit for 4K

tsioukas
11-18-2016, 07:17 AM
Very interesting, as I expected it have some noise, but I think that it's more than I expected :). Of course it was on low light conditions, and something is better from nothing, maybe on normal lighting it has less noise.

Thank you, it was very helpful for me.

tsioukas
11-18-2016, 08:03 AM
If you have some time do one also with normal light, to compare how much noise added with gain.

Barry_Green
11-18-2016, 08:22 AM
Wow! Dont the UX180 and HC-X1 use the same batteries as the UX90, and therefore can use the old batteries?
Sure would be nice not to have to buy yet another type (and more expensive) of Panasonic battery when I have several of the old kinds still.
Verified - I put an original Panasonic DVX-style battery in a UX90 and also in a UX180, it fit and powered the camera. It will not fit in the DVX200, but it does fit in the UX90 and UX180. Don't know about the HC-X1.

I don't know if using the old batteries is acknowledged or recommended by Panasonic; I'll try to find out. But it did work.

Barry_Green
11-18-2016, 08:28 AM
Very interesting, as I expected it have some noise, but I think that it's more than I expected :). Of course it was on low light conditions, and something is better from nothing, maybe on normal lighting it has less noise.

Thank you, it was very helpful for me.
Noise depends on settings, and on light. In extreme low light conditions there can be significant noise, yes. The UX90 has a LOW LIGHT mode that puts it in 36dB of gain and slows the shutter to 1/30. It definitely delivers a bright image in low light, but as you can imagine, 36dB of gain creates a lot of noise. In low gain conditions the noise is much lower. You can also affect the noise with the NOISE REDUCTION menu option, that lets you adjust how much noise reduction is applied.

The AC90 was really not good in low light, I think it's an ideal camera for outdoors use but not great for indoor stuff. The UX90 is much better than the AC90 was in terms of sensitivity. However, the UX180 is quite a bit better still; the UX180 is about 450 ISO so it's a good f-stop faster/more sensitive than the UX90.

Barry_Green
11-18-2016, 08:29 AM
You'll also be able to see how much 4K crops.
The crop when going to UHD is equivalent to going from a 25mm lens to a 35mm lens. In terms of sensor size, it is as if in FHD the camera has a 1" sensor, and in UHD it has a 2/3" sensor.

For those interested, the UX180 has no crop in any recording mode, whether FHD or UHD, 24/25/30/50/60, or even in 120fps mode, it always retains the same field of view. It does, however, get wider when shooting Cinema 4K/24.00p.

dnavas
11-18-2016, 09:00 AM
Here's some native 4K30p videos going from 0 to 30 db.
https://we.tl/qE30LQRsI3
Shutter set to 60.


What is lighting that scene?

This is about what I expected -- 12db of clean-ish gain, maybe 18db on UX180. My assumption is that you've got ~1000 lumens of overhead fluorescent at about 2m (~40lux?). If it's a lot more than that, it's going to make indoor @home-shooting challenging.

Camera Expert
11-18-2016, 09:17 AM
What is lighting that scene?

This is about what I expected -- 12db of clean-ish gain, maybe 18db on UX180. My assumption is that you've got ~1000 lumens of overhead fluorescent at about 2m (~40lux?). If it's a lot more than that, it's going to make indoor @home-shooting challenging.

I shot that in the middle of the night and the room only had 1 lightbulb.

Camera Expert
11-18-2016, 09:22 AM
I don't know if using the old batteries is acknowledged or recommended by Panasonic; I'll try to find out. But it did work.
That's what I was trying to know as well since I can see that it works, just not sure if it's recommended. Not a good idea to make the battery fit if it isn't recommended. Panasonic would need to warn people not to use those batteries if it's not really recommended.

Camera Expert
11-18-2016, 09:24 AM
2 sets of native clips in this. Both from the UX90. 1080p24 and 2160p24. Shutter set to 60. No lights turned on in the room and the window shades closed so that +30 db doesn't get too overexposed.
https://we.tl/d3TkWxbN6u

This will allow people to compare the noise between the clips and also see how much of a crop 4K is on this camera. Like what's been mentioned by other people, the UX180 doesn't have that kind of crop in 4K and so the low light capabilities of the UX180 will be better than the UX90's when shooting in 4K.

dnavas
11-18-2016, 09:52 AM
I shot that in the middle of the night and the room only had 1 lightbulb.

Yeah. FWIW, 1000lumens is something like a 75W incandescent bulb. If it isn't in a reflector, it would be casting a lot less on the scene, too.

Phil vG
11-18-2016, 09:02 PM
Verified - I put an original Panasonic DVX-style battery in a UX90 and also in a UX180, it fit and powered the camera. It will not fit in the DVX200, but it does fit in the UX90 and UX180. Don't know about the HC-X1.

I don't know if using the old batteries is acknowledged or recommended by Panasonic; I'll try to find out. But it did work.
The DVX200 and HC-X1000 work with the same battery, I would have thought the HC-X1 would go with them. :undecided

Barry_Green
11-19-2016, 10:54 AM
The DVX200 and HC-X1000 work with the same battery, I would have thought the HC-X1 would go with them. :undecided
According to the brochure, the HC-X1 does use the same battery as the UX180/UX90 and DVX200 and HC-X1000.

It looks to me like the HC-X1 uses the body of the UX90 and the internals of the UX180. So I am going to guess that it will be able to accomodate the CGA-D54 batteries too, just like the UX90 can. However, that's a guess at this point, we'll need to actually try it on an HC-X1 to know for sure.

Ron Evans
11-19-2016, 11:07 AM
I think the HC-X1 is the UX180 with just the SDI and timecode electronics and connectors different. Looking at the specs the features are identical other than SDI and timecode interfaces.

Barry_Green
11-19-2016, 03:45 PM
I think the HC-X1 is the UX180 with just the SDI and timecode electronics and connectors different. Looking at the specs the features are identical other than SDI and timecode interfaces.

The internals appear to be the same, yes. Don't know if all the menu functions and features will be the same. As for the externals, it appears to be living in a UX90 body (the UX90 doesn't have SDI or timecode either, and it has the three RCA jacks for composite video/audio, same as the HC-X1 has). Difference there is the lens though; UX90 is 15x, HC-X1 is 20x.

According to the specs it seems reasonable to conclude that the HC-X1 is probably the same camera as the UX180, but with the aforementioned port differences. The UX90 is a different beast altogether (different sensor, lens, and processing power).

However, again, we don't know what menu options, features, and capabilities the UX180 and HC-X1 share, or in what ways they may potentially be different. The UX180 has lots of things in it that the UX90 doesn't have. We don't know where the HC-X1 fits in that picture and won't know until we can see at least the owner's manual and compare.

Ron Evans
11-19-2016, 04:02 PM
Yes I agree we will not know everything until the manuals are available but since they share the same features according to their marketing pdf's its likely they will be the same and I am sure not less than the UX90 whose manual is already available. I think that one can assume that the UX180 is the pro version of the HC-X1 and there isn't a comsumer version of the UX90 as there are a lot of consumer cameras with similar specs ( agreed not all ) other than the xlr's and menu adjustments for the pro. But zoom range, sensor size and recording options are all available on consumer cameras at a lot less cost than the UX90. So no need for a consumer version companion to the HC-X1. However the HC-X1 fits right in to the prosumer range that I for one am interested just like the FDR-AX1 or HC-X1000. If anything I think that Panasonic should have charged more for the UX180 and put 12G SDI on it which would have made it really useful and a real competitive product in the marketplace. Maybe there is a product like that in the works!!

Phil vG
11-19-2016, 07:15 PM
What's the go with -

Panasonic AG-UX180 - 1.0" Type CMOS Sensor

Panasonic AG-UX90 - 1.0" Type CMOS Sensor

Panasonic HC-X1 - 1"-Type MOS Sensor

Why not just use the same one for all of them?

Ron Evans
11-19-2016, 08:00 PM
Not all 1`sensors are the same, perform the same or cost the same. The UX90 has a 20Mpixel sensor likely from a still camera that would be part of a much bigger volume production and cost a lot less than a more specialized around 9Mpixel sensor in the UX180 and HC-X1 that is more sensitive for just video. Lower volume production and so costs more. But with much better low light, faster read for 60P UHD performance and likely noise level too. We will have to wait and see how they all perform.

Barry_Green
11-19-2016, 10:10 PM
You'll have to wait to see how they all perform, but you don't have to wait to hear that your suppositions are correct. I've used prerelease versions of both, and the UX180 has better sensitivity, it handles UHD 60p (including with no additional crop), and it delivers substantially less noise for any given light level. It also draws a lot more power (19.7 watts vs. 12.2 watts).

I would presume that the HC-X1 will perform identically, but haven't seen one so cannot be absolutely certain (but am pretty darn sure).

The UX90 is a different camera inside. It does well for its price, certainly, but you definitely get more power and performance if you pay the difference for the UX180 (or, presumably, HC-X1).

Barry_Green
11-19-2016, 10:14 PM
What's the go with -

Panasonic AG-UX180 - 1.0" Type CMOS Sensor

Panasonic AG-UX90 - 1.0" Type CMOS Sensor

Panasonic HC-X1 - 1"-Type MOS Sensor

Why not just use the same one for all of them?
Because then they'd all cost the same.

The UX90 is not the same camera as the UX180/HC-X1. They have the same size of sensor, yes, but it's not the same sensor at all. The UX180/HC-X1 sensor appears to be directly designed for video use, and it has beefier processing hardware in it to deliver higher frame rates in UHD, higher frame rates in VFR, etc.

Look at it like this: you could buy a Ford Mustang with a 2.3L 4-cylinder engine, or you could buy a Mustang GT with a firebreathing 5.0L V-8. They look the same on the outside, but under the hood and on the street there's a big difference between them. The 2.3L Mustang will cost less, be slower, and get better gas mileage. Same thing with the UX90 - it costs less, it's slower, and it gets much better battery life. If that's all you need, then it's a good choice. But if your tastes run to the Mustang GT side of things, you pay more and you get more power and worse gas mileage. Same with the UX180 (and HC-X1) - it delivers more sensitivity, faster frame rates, super-slow motion, lots more features, but it costs more and it uses up batteries faster.

Phil vG
11-19-2016, 11:47 PM
The UX90 is not the same camera as the UX180/HC-X1.

Yer, that's fair enough, but its the HC-X1 that is MOS, not CMOS.

I just looked it up again and according to some of the things I've read the MOS sensor is better in low light. It will be great to finally see video from all 3 cameras side by side.

tsioukas
11-20-2016, 12:01 AM
From brochures both UX180 & UX90 have MOS sensors, not CMOS

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/news_info/news2016/20160907.html
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux180.pdf
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux90p.pdf

Camera Expert
11-20-2016, 12:30 AM
Was at a lion dance competition event on November 19. This particular team wasn't competing. It was an extra show for the spectators. The actual teams were a little older. I'll do a highlight video that shows a little of each team. I also have to upload footage I shot of a Tree Lighting event in Boston.

Anyway, this was fully automatic. Don't know exactly what gain setting the camera used automatically but it could have been around 10 to 13. If I was shooting at 1080p, I'm sure the camera would have chosen a lower gain setting since 1080p gives you better low light capabilities since it doesn't have the crop you see in 4K.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWbBK-JHVtcShutter stayed at 60.

Phil vG
11-20-2016, 05:25 AM
From brochures both UX180 & UX90 have MOS sensors, not CMOS

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/news_info/news2016/20160907.html
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux180.pdf
http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/ag-ux90p.pdf

Oh, ok, I was just going by what it said on B&H

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Panasonic&ci=16763&N=4256818817+4291296566

Camera Expert
11-22-2016, 02:07 PM
Video I took of the Faneuil Hall Marketplace tree lighting event in Boston Massachusetts.
It was edited in Premiere Pro CC 2017 and exported to 70Mbps before uploading to YouTube.

It's just a bunch of random shots. Later in the video I decided to walk through the gate to get to the front. It was starting to get crowded and I wanted to get closer shots rather than be too far. The only major editing I did was take away the audio from one clip for copyright reasons. I decided to leave every single clip in regardless if they look bad or not. I like posting videos on YouTube but I also have other things to do with my time so I can't spend a lot of time editing every video.

It was in auto focus the whole time so you could say this was a test on the auto focusing.

Anyway, I found it a little bit ironic that in the projector, you can see some gain in the footage of the professional cameras that the TV crew was using unlike the UX90 that didn't need any gain at all. The UX90 was set to a shutter of 60 so I wonder if they might have had the shutter way too high.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-sF0jSNAOk

Phil vG
11-23-2016, 02:49 AM
Camera Expert, is that just with the built in Mic or something else?

Camera Expert
11-23-2016, 07:06 AM
Yes, just the built in mic.

Phil vG
11-23-2016, 07:15 AM
I like the sound of that :cheesy:

Camera Expert
11-23-2016, 07:17 PM
Wish the UX90 had an IR mode like the UX180. I would have loved to have tested that.

Barry_Green
11-24-2016, 08:52 AM
The IR mode is pretty cool, although it does require 100% automatic exposure (auto iris, auto gain, auto shutter). But it totally sees in the dark. The UX180's IR mode is also a little advanced over the DVX200, in that you can select whether the color tint will be white or greenish. On the DVX200 it's always greenish.

There are many things the UX180 has that the UX90 doesn't. The 90 is one territory only (60Hz), and only has 50mbps recording modes for FHD, it doesn't have the 16-pole color corrector or the 120fps super-slow-mo, it doesn't do dual-codec recording, really you really do get your money's worth when you spend for the UX180. On the other hand, the UX90 is very little money and for the money it costs, it is quite a lot of camera, especially in that it offers a very wide and very long zoom and incredible battery life.

robfilms
11-24-2016, 11:26 AM
I am looking forward to the UX180 release and resulting footage.

For me the real issue is whether a 1" sensor can satisfy my needs in the same way a aps-c sized sensor can.

Clearly, I recognize that simply on low light, the aps-c would win.

But my needs are more than low light capabilities.

Be well.

Rob
Smalltalk.Productions

flinty
11-24-2016, 11:47 PM
For me its a shame the UX180 does not have the same focal length as the HC-X1000,they are both 20x zoom but the UX180 loses 100mm in length i believe,i find the HC-X1000s wide plenty enough but losing 100mm for my wildlife would be big,the extra low light ability of a camera like the 180 is what i want.

Ron Evans
11-25-2016, 05:06 AM
For me its a shame the UX180 does not have the same focal length as the HC-X1000,they are both 20x zoom but the UX180 loses 100mm in length i believe,i find the HC-X1000s wide plenty enough but losing 100mm for my wildlife would be big,the extra low light ability of a camera like the 180 is what i want.

Everyone has their own needs and for me the extra wide angle is more useful indoors.

Ron Evans
11-26-2016, 06:09 AM
Another question for Barry. Does focus assist work when the UX180 is recording so that one can get a visual check of focus.

Barry_Green
11-26-2016, 08:38 AM
It works the same as the DVX200. There are two components to the focus assist, the magnified focus and the focus-in-red peaking. When paused, both work. When recording, the magnification doesn't work, but the focus-in-red does.

Ron Evans
11-26-2016, 09:18 AM
That's a pity as I use magnify focus assist on my NX5U a lot to check as it is recording. I have peaking on all the time but it is nice to really check an enlarged image.

dnavas
11-26-2016, 03:10 PM
That's a pity as I use magnify focus assist on my NX5U a lot to check as it is recording. I have peaking on all the time but it is nice to really check an enlarged image.

Yes, particularly with the lower resolution LCD on the UX180. Also, histograms aren't available in UHD 60p, iirc (btw, thanks Barry Green for the DVX200 Guide -- finally finished it a couple of days ago). The waveform takes over the whole LCD, and can't be displayed on the viewfinder.... There are going to be a few annoyances for sure. The Guide encourages the use of an external monitor, which I know you've talked about. That would fix a number of the shortcomings.

Ron Evans
11-26-2016, 05:18 PM
Yes I have a 7" MUSTHD as well as 5" BM Video Assist. The more I think about these newer cameras like the HC-X1/UX180 or the GH5 an external recording monitor becomes important for a number of reasons. With the built in monitor almost becoming an interface device for buttons, touch focus , timecode counters etc. Cameras with about 3" monitors I find too small for monitoring HD let alone UHD or 4K so the external monitor ( and may as well be recorder ) become important. The internal recorder becomes more of a backup to the external recorder !!! The combination of a GH5 with ATOMOS Inferno or CD 7Q etc make a more complete package with of course much better performance. The HC-X1, I think will be good replacement for my NX5U and FDR-AX1.

firehawk
11-26-2016, 07:21 PM
It would be nice if the LCD was good enough to focus without having to use an external monitor. A couple of my Sonys are almost good enough, but my HMC150s have wretched LCD screens for focussing.
I would expect to use an external monitor/recorder some of the time with the UX180 for some jobs, but for run and gun, the more lean you can run, the better. If the LCD isn't good then I expect focussing 4k especially could be very difficult.

tsioukas
11-26-2016, 11:56 PM
In this video from Cinema5D, they said that UX90 & UX180 have same sensor size but the sensors are different. UX180 produce less noise. So we can't compare directly the image quality between UX90 & UX180


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKzxhovQgE

Ron Evans
11-27-2016, 05:51 AM
I think this has been known from the first set of information. http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/ux/index.html The UX90 has a 17.78 Mpixel sensor and the UX180/HC-X1 8.79 Mpixel sensor. The UX90 likely has a 1" sensor from a still camera likely why it is also only 30P UHD similar to a lot of 1" still camera sensors and the UX180/HC-X1 for a more video centric application with less than half the sensor sites to scan allows 60P UHD. Means bigger sensor sites for better low light as Barry has mentioned already. So yes there should be a noticeable difference in performance between the UX90 and the UX180/HC-X1. The UX90 crops into the sensor for UHD but I expect for marketing reasons the UX90 is restricted to 30P UHD. We will have to see what the HD performance is as that will depend on how the interpolation works on the UX90.

That video also mentions that the internal processing is 8 bit 4:2:2 as is the external outputs too. Though for UHD the specs clearly say that then the output is 8bit 4:2:0 HD. No mention of output in standby for UHD .

Ron Evans
11-27-2016, 05:58 AM
It would be nice if the LCD was good enough to focus without having to use an external monitor. A couple of my Sonys are almost good enough, but my HMC150s have wretched LCD screens for focussing.
I would expect to use an external monitor/recorder some of the time with the UX180 for some jobs, but for run and gun, the more lean you can run, the better. If the LCD isn't good then I expect focussing 4k especially could be very difficult.

Focusing is difficult in 4K and with my Sony FDR-AX1 I have found that autofocus is by far the better way to go most of the time. So for me the area touch focus with size adjustment is one of the main features for me of these new cameras. If you really want to focus manually you will need a much larger external monitor with1:1 pixel setup. I think you may find touch auto focus a lot easier. That way it will be in focus and stay there and not hunt as if it is in full time autofocus.

Phil vG
11-27-2016, 07:44 AM
With the HC-X1000 i have no problems at all when it comes to the camera being locked on a fast moving target in full AF, in 4K 50p (there is no way you could video for 5 hours+ what I do without doing it in AF), the 90 and 180 should be better than that! But I also always have it on a SS over 100 so i can get perfect freeze frames.

Ron Evans
11-27-2016, 10:00 AM
I shoot on a tripod in the theatre so auto focus is a real problem when the lights go to black and then a full lights up stage. Manual, set with touch focus solves this problem. But I agree that for 4K, focusing is a real issue and auto focus is the answer in most cases especially since the focus area and speed etc can be adjusted on the new UX series and HC-X1 .

Barry_Green
11-27-2016, 06:44 PM
they said that UX90 & UX180 have same sensor size but the sensors are different. UX180 produce less noise. So we can't compare directly the image quality between UX90 & UX180
yes, I've been saying this for a while. The UX90 and the UX180 are NOT the same camera, and you cannot directly compare the images. The UX90 is the best camera they could make for $2,000. The UX180 has a higher price point ($3600) and so it has a better sensor, better processing hardware, more frame rates, more sensitivity, less noise, etc.

They are decidedly not the same and you should not judge one based on the other.

Barry_Green
11-27-2016, 06:54 PM
The UX90 crops into the sensor for UHD but I expect for marketing reasons the UX90 is restricted to 30P UHD.
It's not "marketing reasons", it's hardware limitations. There's only so much you can do at that price point. The UX180 can do it, but it draws way more power than the UX90 does, which points to the UX180 having upgraded processing hardware in it.


We will have to see what the HD performance is as that will depend on how the interpolation works on the UX90.
My initial evaluation shows that it does very very well with HD, even better than the DVX200's HD (although not as sensitive).


That video also mentions that the internal processing is 8 bit 4:2:2 as is the external outputs too. Though for UHD the specs clearly say that then the output is 8bit 4:2:0 HD. No mention of output in standby for UHD .
I think I know what you're saying, but let me restate the situation clearly so hopefully there is no confusion:

The output is always 8-bit.
When in HD, the output is always HD 4:2:2.
When in UHD 24/25/30, or 4K/24, the output is UHD 4:2:2.
When in UHD 50/60 in standby mode, the output is UHD 4:2:0.
When in UHD 50/60 and recording, the output is 1080p FHD 4:2:0.

Barry_Green
11-27-2016, 07:00 PM
Focusing is difficult in 4K and with my Sony FDR-AX1 I have found that autofocus is by far the better way to go most of the time.
Focus is always going to be challenging on a large-sensor camera with a smallish LCD. That's just a given. The autofocus system may be able to do better, and the UX180's autofocus is quite quick.

For LCD focusing, during standby you have the option of the magnified focus assist, and during recording you can employ the LCD detail peaking, or you can use the focus-in-red LCD peaking. The focus-in-red is customizable to your taste, you can adjust it so that it is generous or picky, you can adjust the response to give you a little red or a whole lot of red, etc. And, the manual focus ring is active even during autofocus, you you can "help" the autofocus out, or fine-tune the focus for exactly what you want. Additionally, the UX180 has the pre-set focus transition feature, so you can pre-program up to three focus points and switch between them precisely and automatically (useful for locked-down shots, not useful for handheld run 'n' gun of course).

So for me the area touch focus with size adjustment is one of the main features for me of these new cameras. If you really want to focus manually you will need a much larger external monitor with1:1 pixel setup. I think you may find touch auto focus a lot easier. That way it will be in focus and stay there and not hunt as if it is in full time autofocus.
The area touch focus is very easy to use (obviously) and really helps the system know exactly what to focus on, which will improve its performance. You can fine-tune how you want the focus to perform too; you can choose the size of area for it to evaluate for determining focus (a generous or tight area, for example) and you can adjust the speed and responsiveness of the focus system. You can have it jump hyper-fast, or gradually transition to other focus points; you can also tell it how "sticky" you want it to be -- once it's focused, do you want it to stay there and ignore intervening objects (such as a passerby who walks between you and the camera) or do you want it to jump immediately to the closest object? Those parameters are in your control, you can tell it to be extremely responsive (like for a football game) or for it to be gradual and stable (for an interview, for example).

Barry_Green
11-27-2016, 07:02 PM
With the HC-X1000 i have no problems at all when it comes to the camera being locked on a fast moving target in full AF, in 4K 50p (there is no way you could video for 5 hours+ what I do without doing it in AF), the 90 and 180 should be better than that! But I also always have it on a SS over 100 so i can get perfect freeze frames.
Not necessarily. The HC-X1000 has a comparatively tiny sensor, so it has much deeper DOF, which really really helps autofocus out. The UX cameras have a sensor that's somewhere around 20x larger than the HC-X1000's sensor, so they have much shallower DOF, and that makes the autofocus system have to work much harder. They've invented new technologies to help with this, and the autofocus in the UX is really quick, but just recognize it's a lot harder job and so you may not see marked improvements over what you'd see from a smaller-sensor camera.

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 05:45 AM
The reason I like the expanded focus during record is I set the focus and do not change during a performance. With the 1/3" sensor on the NX5U and shooting from the back of the theatre there is no need to continuously focus as the depth of field is adequate for all but very tight closeups ( which I do not do with my camera my wife does that with the AX100 ). I do however check every so often that the focus is OK with the expanded focus. Red peaking is on all the time as is zebra but this is often not enough to get sharp focus. The NX5U does not have touch focus which the AX100 and AX53 do have and is excellent so that is why I look forward to having that feature on a camera like the UX180/HC-X1. Reading the UX90 user manual still not clear how area touch mode works. I would like it to operate in manual focus, set the focus with touch and stay there until I change it. Is that how it works ? That is how the Sony's work. I do not want it to track . For me that is another feature I just want to use area touch focus as a manual focusing aid.

dnavas
11-28-2016, 06:17 AM
Assuming this works the same as the DVX200, as long as you have the camera in manual focus mode, it will work that way. Area mode is apparently also capable of adjusting the Iris too, so you may need to be in manual exposure mode as well. Note that when the area mode is active, the touch screen is useless for anything else. I commend to you the pages labeled 160 and 161 of the excellent (and long) DVX200 Guide (which pages are displayed to me as pages 172 and 173 in my pdf reader).

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 06:34 AM
Yes I have Barry's DVX200 guide and was just trying to confirm if these camcorders work the same way. I run full manual on my camera most of the time. My wife and the other Sony's run with fixed shutter,AE shift set and limit on gain. The other thing I am finding out about on these camcorders as it would be used unattended some of the time as a full stage camera so that I can edit in HD afterwards. The whole point of UHD for me. Essentially would like to set as I do the AX53 or FDR-AX1 now. Gain limit, AE shift, fixed shutter and fixed touch focus ( though the AX1 does not have touch focus I set manually ). With the Sony's I can get out of touch focus mode returning to normal display and they will stay in that focus position until I change.

Barry_Green
11-28-2016, 12:38 PM
Yes generally it will work that way. It has to be in autofocus for the area touch function to work, but when it's locked in you then set the switch to manual and it will stay there until you want to change it again.

The area mode can be used to tell it where to focus, or where to expose, or to give you a readout of what the exposure level is at that position, or it can be set to do a combination (such as focus and expose, or focus and report exposure).

The function works the same as the DVX200. Most of the functions in the UX180 work the same as the DVX200. It doesn't have everything the DVX200 does, but it does have most of it, and the functionality is generally the same.

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 01:03 PM
The Sony screen when in touch focus allows you to touch for focus and you then have two options to leave this screen. Just exit in which case you are in manual focus and it stays where you have set it or you can exit to auto focus in which case it will refocus to auto focus . Not what you want to have happen of course. How can this be done with the Panasonic system without the auto focus changing the focus as one gets out of area focus?

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 02:19 PM
On my Sony's, in manual focus, I have an LCD " My Button " set for spot focus and when I touch this I go into a screen that I can touch the point I want in focus. If I then exit it will stay there in focus directly. Seems like a lot more button pushing and opportunity for errors to achieve the same think for the UX180. I do not want the camera to be in auto focus at all other than to touch focus. Is there not a way of setting user buttons to go directly into area mode in manual focus and then focus where I touch, then return to manual focus? If I am in manual focus and turn on auto focus it will focus on something that I do not want before I have time to area focus the point I want. For me this will be during a 1 hour performance while recording and I do not want the camera focusing where I have not directed it to focus with touch focus. I may want to do this repeatedly during the performance to check focus or refocus if I have zoomed in for a closeup. Just like the expanded focus issue this is something I will want to do while recording and without causing a noticeable change to the image being recorded. Seems like the focusing aids are in two modes. Those while in standby before recording and those that modify auto focus. The first is of use to me but I am beginning to think that while recording the available aids are limited for the way I want to work.

EDIT: Barry just re-read the DVX200 section on AREA mode from your book and that is close to how I would want the touch focus to work. So am interested if the UX180 work the same way. Assign a user button to area. while in manual focus press the area user button, touch the point on the screen I want in focus and then touch the area user button to return to manual focus mode. Only part is I would prefer no frame in area until I touch the screen. Not sure if that is how it works.

Barry_Green
11-28-2016, 03:11 PM
Yes, I deleted that last post because it was inaccurate.

On the UX180 you'd do it like this:
Set the camera in manual focus
Press the USER BUTTON to which you've assigned AREA (the AREA focus/expose function)
Touch the area of the screen you want it to focus on.
The camera will switch into autofocus, it will focus on that spot, and then it will automatically go back to manual. And it will stay in manual unless you touch another area on the screen, at which point it'll focus on that new spot and then switch back to manual.

So it does exactly what you're asking for.


Only part is I would prefer no frame in area until I touch the screen. Not sure if that is how it works.
Can't help you with that part; when you turn on AREA mode, it does display the frame and that frame will stay there until you turn AREA off again. It doesn't do or hurt anything if you're in manual focus, it's just an overlay that's there so long as the area function is active.

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 05:47 PM
Does it auto focus at that frame or wait until one touches the screen. If that is the case then that is OK. Just didn't want it arbitrarily focus on the frame at the last position it was set at. If that is the case it is just like the Sony ( which does not have a frame but does nothing until one touches the screen ). Looks like it will do what I want at least for touch and I have my external monitor for expanded image.

Ron Evans
11-28-2016, 08:13 PM
Being so far a Sony camera owner I have started to look at Panasonic stuff including the apps for controlling Lumix cameras like the FZ series etc. Just wonder why Panasonic did not use these apps that exist for iOS and Android that from some of the demonstrations on Youtube look very good. Sad that the only app for these camera is for iOS only which I guess is something to do with the fact wireless is not in the cameras but from a USB dongle or because this is the Pro division ?

tsioukas
11-28-2016, 11:33 PM
Sad that the only app for these camera is for iOS only which I guess is something to do with the fact wireless is not in the cameras but from a USB dongle or because this is the Pro division ?

I agree about AG ROP app, but WiFi Protocol is the same on every chip. So it's only a decision that Panasonic have to make. To create an app like this is at most a month of 2 software engineers (for me 2 weeks of a freelancer, but in big companies some things going slow). So we have just to press them, it's all about community. If customer wants that Panasonic will do. Maybe we have to start a petition ;)

Ron Evans
11-29-2016, 06:18 AM
It is not just the wireless protocal which is just a way of removing a wire. It is the internal functions that may be different or the Lumix app my work !!! Seems to work for all the still cameras and likely the GH5. The apps of course will have different functional capabilities and look different. For me the Lumix app looks to do all I would want. I am looking to update both my FDR-AX1 and the NX5U and a HC-X1 and GH5 with the Lumix app would work I think.

firehawk
11-29-2016, 08:03 AM
Here's some native 4K30p videos going from 0 to 30 db.
https://we.tl/qE30LQRsI3
Shutter set to 60.

It crops a bit for 4K

Dumb question but.... these are .mp4 files straight from the camera, right? They imported and worked fine in CS6. The specs say it also records to .mov format.
The specs on the UX180 also say .mp4 and .mov.
I'm trying to determine if I will be able to import footage straight from the UX180 or HC X1 into CS6. I'm on PC, WIN 7 64

benne13
11-29-2016, 11:17 AM
Does the UX90 record in FHD 60fps? The manual doesn't say it but I've seen other reports when people are saying it does shoot FHD 60fps.. 118847

Stevelunn40
11-29-2016, 11:24 AM
I import MP4 files from the dvx200 without issue into premiere cs6, I assume the ux180 files will import as easily.

dnavas
11-29-2016, 04:03 PM
I've enjoyed Philip's reviews in the past, so I look forward to this one:
https://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2016/11/28/first-major-camera-review-for-9-months-the-panasonic-hc-x1-4k-50p/

Camera Expert
11-30-2016, 12:20 AM
Dumb question but.... these are .mp4 files straight from the camera, right? They imported and worked fine in CS6. The specs say it also records to .mov format.
The specs on the UX180 also say .mp4 and .mov.
I'm trying to determine if I will be able to import footage straight from the UX180 or HC X1 into CS6. I'm on PC, WIN 7 64

Yes these files are directly from the memory card. All I did was renamed them.

Barry_Green
11-30-2016, 10:39 AM
Does it auto focus at that frame or wait until one touches the screen.

It waits for you to touch where you want it to focus. Then it switches into auto, locks on to that area, and switches back to manual.

Barry_Green
11-30-2016, 10:43 AM
Does the UX90 record in FHD 60fps?
Yes it does. The UX90 supports FHD MOV/MP4 @ 59.94p, 29.97p, 23.98p, and 59.94i. Also, it does FHD in AVCHD, PS@59.94p, PH @ 23.98p, and it does 1080/59.94i in PH, HA, and HE modes.

Ron Evans
11-30-2016, 10:50 AM
It waits for you to touch where you want it to focus. Then it switches into auto, locks on to that area, and switches back to manual.

Thanks Barry. Will meet my needs I think and good replacement for either my NX5U or the FDR-AX1.

Camera Expert
11-30-2016, 03:37 PM
The UX90 was in fully automatic mode. Basically auto white balance, auto-focusing, auto gain, etc. I'd say the cameras was probably using around 10 to 13 db of gain and the shutter stayed at 60.

Video is in 4K 30p.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ReHnr_w6Z8

Phil vG
11-30-2016, 08:13 PM
It's ridicules the price on the HC-X1 in Australia right now.
When the HC-X1000 first came out in the US it was $3200, like the HC-X1 will be. It has gradually gone down to $2500 for the sake of the new camera.
But in Aus the X1000 has stayed at Panasonic's price of $3999, so they are asking $4999 for the X1. :Drogar-Angry(DBG):

tsioukas
12-01-2016, 02:46 AM
A new HC-X1 Clip


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoXcxhzIloE

Ron Evans
12-01-2016, 05:49 AM
It's ridicules the price on the HC-X1 in Australia right now.
When the HC-X1000 first came out in the US it was $3200, like the HC-X1 will be. It has gradually gone down to $2500 for the sake of the new camera.
But in Aus the X1000 has stayed at Panasonic's price of $3999, so they are asking $4999 for the X1. :Drogar-Angry(DBG):

HCX1000 doesn't appear to be available now in Canada and HCX1 is down to $4199 Canadian dollars. Still not available though !

tsioukas
12-01-2016, 06:10 AM
I can't choose between the picture quality and the girl... they are both beautiful ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1CcSiDuIX0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUp4LHEM9NU

Bassman2003
12-01-2016, 06:53 AM
Thanks for posting. Looks better than the DVX-200 imho. This is just from watching examples, not using but the UX180 is not as heavy in the shadows like so many DVX200 shots I see. Still a bit there but a step in the right direction. This footage kind of has a "video-y" feel to it in parts, but pretty nice.

Phil vG
12-01-2016, 06:56 AM
HCX1000 doesn't appear to be available now in Canada and HCX1 is down to $4199 Canadian dollars. Still not available though !
The Canadian and Australian dollar are basically at parity, so that is what the camera should come out at for us.
Shop's hate taking things off the market here, so maybe the price will drop once Panasonic "cease production" of the X1000.

dnavas
12-01-2016, 07:23 AM
HCX1000 doesn't appear to be available now in Canada and HCX1 is down to $4199 Canadian dollars. Still not available though !

Yes, it is a little bit like "shut up and take my money" already :)
Seriously, if anyone has an availability date for either of these cameras, give a shout.

Terry Nixon
12-01-2016, 09:19 AM
Panasonic HC-X1 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-HC-X1-Ultra-HD-Professional-Camcorder-with-20X-LEICA-DICOMAR-Lens_p_6849.html)is expected to arrive around December 15 2016.

Panasonic AG-UX180 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX180-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6847.html) should be available by the end of December. I'm trying to get a more accurate ETA.

Panasonic AG-UX90 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX90-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6848.html) is in stock.

0% 12 Month Lease Financing is available on the UX180 & UX90:
http://www.texasmediasystems.com/panasonic-leasing.php

https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/assets/images/buttons/pan-marlin-apply.png (http://www.texasmediasystems.com/panasonic-leasing.php)

firehawk
12-01-2016, 09:29 AM
Thanks! Those promos are better than what Panasonic usually does. Looking forward to hearing more once they hit the public

tsioukas
12-01-2016, 09:36 AM
Until I will see & study the operation manual, I will never know about the full features or the possible limitations. Quality looks good (like Sony Z150 at the first videos), but I discover that it has horrible limitations (with top of that the 4K recording, output and LCD)

Terry Nixon, can you help us on this? (to find operation manuals of UX180 & HC-X1)

dnavas
12-01-2016, 09:42 AM
Panasonic HC-X1 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-HC-X1-Ultra-HD-Professional-Camcorder-with-20X-LEICA-DICOMAR-Lens_p_6849.html)is expected to arrive around December 15 2016.

Panasonic AG-UX180 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-AG-UX180-4K-UX-Series-Professional-Camcorder_p_6847.html) should be available by the end of December. I'm trying to get a more accurate ETA.


Thanks Terry. I've got a gig on the 12th and the 18th, so, earliest at 15th sounds about par for the course :>

Terry Nixon
12-01-2016, 09:46 AM
I'm checking on pdf copies of the owners manuals.

December release dates are hard on dealers in Texas since we have property taxes that are assessed on Dec 31.

tsioukas
12-01-2016, 09:49 AM
I'm checking on pdf copies of the owners manuals.

Thanks Terry, if you find anything let as know.

Terry Nixon
12-01-2016, 10:23 AM
ETA on the AG-UX180 is end of December 2016 per Panasonic.

robfilms
12-01-2016, 10:35 AM
And so far, the only "known" difference between the X1 and the UX180 is TC and the SDI ports.

Right?

Be well.

Rob
Smalltalk.Productions

Ron Evans
12-01-2016, 11:51 AM
Are you sure those specs are correct ? Looks like the HC-X1 has more recording options than the UX180. I can accept that the UX180 would have the high speed/slow motion record but no AVCHD or SD ?HC-X1 looks like a much better deal for my needs.

tsioukas
12-01-2016, 11:58 AM
Are you sure those specs are correct ? Looks like the HC-X1 has more recording options than the UX180. I can accept that the UX180 would have the high speed/slow motion record but no AVCHD or SD ?HC-X1 looks like a much better deal for my needs.

From UX90 operation manual we can see that it have more recording options than the above image. So something is missing also in UX180.

Terry Nixon
12-01-2016, 11:59 AM
i had someone here create the comparison chart for me, so there may be some errors.

here's the hc-x1 record modes from the pdf that Panasonic Photo (consumer) had sent me:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQc5TgYcbaXaXZmdTI2elVMWms/view?usp=sharing

just added the AG-UX180 record formats below from a spec sheet that Panasonic just emailed me:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQc5TgYcbaXOXczVWs3cWZ4Rjg/view?usp=sharing

118895

118896

Ron Evans
12-01-2016, 12:51 PM
This from the Canadian Panasonic site. http://www.panasonic.com/ca/consumer/cameras-camcorders/hd-camcorders/hc-x1.html Not found this detail on the UX180 but would appear tha the UX180 has 120/100 fps slow motion record but the HC-X1 does not. The Canadian site for UX180 does not have the detail of the consumer site !!!! So my take is the differences are 3G SDI, timecode connections and 120/100fps slow motion record otherwise the HX-X1 and UX180 are essentially the same. Will look for interest when the manuals appear. IF that is the case the HC-X1 will be fine for me. The manual for the UX90 is available but of course it is different than the UX180.

Barry_Green
12-01-2016, 01:06 PM
This from the Canadian Panasonic site. http://www.panasonic.com/ca/consumer/cameras-camcorders/hd-camcorders/hc-x1.html Not found this detail on the UX180 but would appear tha the UX180 has 120/100 fps slow motion record but the HC-X1 does not. The Canadian site for UX180 does not have the detail of the consumer site !!!! So my take is the differences are 3G SDI, timecode connections and 120/100fps slow motion record otherwise the HX-X1 and UX180 are essentially the same. Will look for interest when the manuals appear. IF that is the case the HC-X1 will be fine for me. The manual for the UX90 is available but of course it is different than the UX180.

There could be a million differences that won't show up on a spec sheet. The spec sheets show the specs, but they don't show the features. There could be more or different user button functions, or maybe one supports time stamping and the other doesn't, etc. Maybe these differences would be insignificant to you, maybe they would be major -- we just won't know until we see a user manual for the HC-X1 (or I get my hands on an X1 and compare it to the UX180).

All I can really tell you is based on my experience with the UX90 and UX180, and in that case I'd say that the price tag is the best indicator. You really do get what you pay for if you spend the extra for the UX180, over the UX90. The UX90 is a fantastic camera for its price point, yes, but there's a ton more features and power and performance if you step up to the UX180. Example: on the UX90, you can record to both cards simultaneously, or one after the other, but that's pretty much it. On the UX180 you can do both of those, but you also have two more options: background recording, and dual-codec recording. Dual codec might be a pretty important feature to you, and you might be kind of annoyed if you bought a UX90 thinking "it's the same camera" when -- it isn't. The UX90 only records HD at 50mbps, for example... the UX180 does it at 50, 100, and even a 200 mbps all-intra mode. The UX90 just doesn't have those. You get a lot more when you pay for the UX180, in terms of features but also in terms of video performance.

The price tags of the HC-X1 and UX180 are more similar (HC-X1 costs about 91% of what the UX180 does). Most of that is probably explained by the SDI port and the timecode port. But there may be other things missing too, as compared to the UX180. It is PROBABLY a safe bet to say that the UX180 will have everything that the HC-X1 has, and more. It is PROBABLY a safe bet to say that the HC-X1 will have most of the features of the UX180. It is UNLIKELY that the HC-X1 has any features that the UX180 doesn't. But what we don't know is: what are the exact differences? And will those make a difference in one's individual buying decision?

Terry Nixon
12-01-2016, 01:17 PM
i've deleted the post with the comparison info.

dnavas
12-01-2016, 02:48 PM
This from the Canadian Panasonic site. http://www.panasonic.com/ca/consumer/cameras-camcorders/hd-camcorders/hc-x1.html Not found this detail on the UX180 but would appear tha the UX180 has 120/100 fps slow motion record but the HC-X1 does not.

Hmm, the 120fps is potentially interesting to me. ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/camcorder/catalog/HC_X1_Catalog_160824.pdf does mention it (super slow motion). Interesting.

robfilms
12-01-2016, 04:46 PM
terry and others-

Thank you for making the effort to keep us all informed.

One part of the conversation I feel confident in voicing: I'm REALLY interested in seeing what the footage looks like!

Be well.

Rob
Smalltalk.Production

Ron Evans
12-01-2016, 06:57 PM
Did you see these latest from Panasonic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1CcSiDuIX0 as well as the making of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUp4LHEM9NU

firehawk
12-02-2016, 07:46 AM
Hmm, the 120fps is potentially interesting to me. ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/camcorder/catalog/HC_X1_Catalog_160824.pdf does mention it (super slow motion). Interesting.
Yeah it does say 120/100 fps in the pdf. And mentions the super slow motion on B&H site as well for the HC X1

firehawk
12-02-2016, 07:50 AM
Camera Expert,
does the UX90 seem to be working out pretty well as a finished product and not another camera that users will have to go through months of Panasonic updates and tweaking trying to get it where it needs to be?

Barry_Green
12-02-2016, 08:38 AM
Camera Expert,
does the UX90 seem to be working out pretty well as a finished product and not another camera that users will have to go through months of Panasonic updates and tweaking trying to get it where it needs to be?

I'm not who you asked, but I can offer a different perspective that may be of use - the UX90 hasn't had ANY of the developmental issues that the DVX200 had. The launch was buttery smooth. There were many, many, many changes to the DVX200 over the course of its development, but on the UX90 I think I only saw one firmware change before the final product was released.

benne13
12-02-2016, 10:55 AM
Hello Barry. How does the UX90 and UX180 compare in low light situations? I bought the UX90 yesterday and just started testing it indoors but wanted to learn your expert opinion on what you discovered.

Barry_Green
12-02-2016, 11:18 AM
The UX90 is much better than the previous "90" camera, the AC90; the UX90 is about 250 ISO so it's as sensitive at 0dB as an AC90 was when it was set to about 12dB (understanding that the lens iris would be different too).

The UX180 has pixels that are twice as large as the UX90, so it's about a full f-stop more sensitive than the UX90; my initial tests peg it at about ISO 450. The UX180 seems about on par with the DVX200 in that respect.

The UX90 is surprisingly good for its price point; the UX180 costs about 1.7x as much but you do get more performance if you spend that money.

benne13
12-02-2016, 11:33 AM
The UX90 is much better than the previous "90" camera, the AC90; the UX90 is about 250 ISO so it's as sensitive at 0dB as an AC90 was when it was set to about 12dB (understanding that the lens iris would be different too).

The UX180 has pixels that are twice as large as the UX90, so it's about a full f-stop more sensitive than the UX90; my initial tests peg it at about ISO 450. The UX180 seems about on par with the DVX200 in that respect.

The UX90 is surprisingly good for its price point; the UX180 costs about 1.7x as much but you do get more performance if you spend that money.

Thanks . I'm going do more indoor sports shooting today with the UX90 and test more things out.. My primary reason for purchasing this camera is shooting sporting events. My clients love the quality that my GH4 w/ Tamron 24-70 produces while shooting sports, so I've been on the prowl for months trying to find a camcorder to produce similar results.

Barry_Green
12-02-2016, 01:12 PM
If your clients love what you're doing now (the GH4 look), try using Scene File 4 in the UX90 - it employs a GH4-style color matrix and GH4-style gamma to give footage that looks somewhat comparable to the look of GH4 footage.

firehawk
12-02-2016, 02:16 PM
I'm not who you asked, but I can offer a different perspective that may be of use - the UX90 hasn't had ANY of the developmental issues that the DVX200 had. The launch was buttery smooth. There were many, many, many changes to the DVX200 over the course of its development, but on the UX90 I think I only saw one firmware change before the final product was released.
Thank you Barry. That's good news. Any idea if the ux180 or hcx1 have been going through a similar smooth development?

firehawk
12-02-2016, 02:19 PM
The UX90 is much better than the previous "90" camera, the AC90; the UX90 is about 250 ISO so it's as sensitive at 0dB as an AC90 was when it was set to about 12dB (understanding that the lens iris would be different too).

The UX180 has pixels that are twice as large as the UX90, so it's about a full f-stop more sensitive than the UX90; my initial tests peg it at about ISO 450. The UX180 seems about on par with the DVX200 in that respect.
So..the HMC150 I believe was about 500 ISO. So does that mean the ux180 could shoot 4k with higher gain and then you downscale to HD thus making it better in low light than the 150 if HD or even SD was your deliverable?

Barry_Green
12-02-2016, 03:00 PM
Thank you Barry. That's good news. Any idea if the ux180 or hcx1 have been going through a similar smooth development?

I know nothing of the HC-X1. The UX180 I'm using is a preproduction unit and has been quite reliable and has only had one or two firmware updates since I've had it.

This launch feels nothing like the DVX200 launch. I think a ton of lessons were learned and were applied to the UX cameras early on.

Barry_Green
12-02-2016, 03:01 PM
So..the HMC150 I believe was about 500 ISO. So does that mean the ux180 could shoot 4k with higher gain and then you downscale to HD thus making it better in low light than the 150 if HD or even SD was your deliverable?

Certainly. If shooting UHD and converting down to SD, I would think you'd pick up probably about 12dB of averaged noise reduction, since going HD to SD usually results in about 6dB's worth, and UHD->HD is about6dB's worth. Obviously that would need to be verified with actual testing. I don't have an HMC150 anymore to compare against.

Phil vG
12-02-2016, 04:07 PM
I'm going do more indoor sports shooting today with the UX90 and test more things out.
I would love to see some of that!

benne13
12-02-2016, 04:35 PM
Thanks.. I guess my only issue if the level of clarity of the videos between the GH4 and UX90.. Maybe it's because I have metabones speedbooster on GH4 so I'm getting another level of fstop to help with low lighting but I just cant figure out how to get that clarity with the camcorders.

firehawk
12-02-2016, 07:43 PM
Thanks again Barry. The HC-X1 or UX180 may be able to fill several voids I have - 4k, long zoom and a better event camera in addition. If the old batteries still work even better! Having an easy to use camera with a wide lens and 120fps is also great.
I may doing something I've cautiously not done before and buy one at release if they do come available before next year.

That's good news that it's ISO is that good. 1" seems like a reasonable size for lowish light and affordable zoom lenses.

dnavas
12-02-2016, 09:54 PM
I would love to see some of that [indoor sport shooting]!

I'd be happy to do some outdoor day & night diving vids, once either the UX180 or HC-X1 winds up at my door ;^/
Should be a good test of the 120fps, too.

Phil vG
12-03-2016, 01:55 AM
I'd be happy to do some outdoor day & night diving vids
That would be good to see too. :beer:

Camera Expert
12-03-2016, 03:24 PM
The restaurant had very little lighting and I noticed that the noise on the LCD screen wasn't to my liking when shooting in 4K 30p. For the performances, I decided to just shoot it in 1080p30. Would have done 60p but since the bit rate was the same regardless and since I was on a tripod, I figured I might as well shoot it in 30p. The Shutter was set to 60. Everything was basically fully automatic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH76N_UeQUY&index=4&list=PLfiUWslpPfwwvZ7uc7uFZP8jBt5Bgf3JK

Stevelunn40
12-05-2016, 11:32 AM
The ux180 instruction manual is now available on Panasonic pro website http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/manual/index.html

tsioukas
12-05-2016, 12:00 PM
Stevelunn40, thank you :)

Ron Evans
12-05-2016, 12:32 PM
That's great now we just need the manual for the HC-X1.

fastfinger
12-06-2016, 06:43 AM
That's great now we just need the manual for the HC-X1.

I see Panasonic has brought back the 3 year warranty for the HC-X1
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/camera/warranty/panasonic_lumix_extended_warranty_2017.pdf

Ron Evans
12-06-2016, 06:58 AM
Wonder if Panasonic Canada do the same.

Barry_Green
12-06-2016, 10:42 AM
I see Panasonic has brought back the 3 year warranty for the HC-X1
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/camera/warranty/panasonic_lumix_extended_warranty_2017.pdf

Looks like a limited-time promotion though, expiring on April 1st. Of course, sometimes promotions get extended too.

Harry Pallenberg
12-06-2016, 05:23 PM
FYI - long video look on Newshooter at the HC-X1... story here:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2016/12/06/panasonic-hc-x1-has-4k-xlr-audio-nd-filters-20x-zoom-and-1-inch-sensor-just-3199-us/

I CANT WAIT


https://vimeo.com/194425092

dnavas
12-06-2016, 06:12 PM
FYI - long video look on Newshooter at the HC-X1... story here:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2016/12/06/panasonic-hc-x1-has-4k-xlr-audio-nd-filters-20x-zoom-and-1-inch-sensor-just-3199-us/


Fantastic find. To the person who had pointed out that there wasn't a mention of super slo-mo in some of the materials -- it's mentioned here.
The 100 lux shot was pretty nice looking, and the stabilization looks great, though I'm unlikely to shoot in HD....

Phil's review is up as well, fwiw: https://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2016/12/07/the-panasonic-hc-x1-video-review/
Looks like a couple of shots got some over-exposed clouds.

Ron Evans
12-06-2016, 07:24 PM
We also found out that the HXC-X1 and UX180 are really the same camera with just the SDI and timecode connectors different and of course there will likely be warranty differences too.

Harry Pallenberg
12-06-2016, 09:47 PM
Fantastic find. To the person who had pointed out that there wasn't a mention of super slo-mo in some of the materials -- it's mentioned here.
The 100 lux shot was pretty nice looking, and the stabilization looks great, though I'm unlikely to shoot in HD....

Phil's review is up as well, fwiw: https://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2016/12/07/the-panasonic-hc-x1-video-review/
Looks like a couple of shots got some over-exposed clouds.

Good find yourself... but I am confused by his review... at 1:10 he mentions how fast the autofocus is and it actually seems slow?

Then at 1:30 for the autofocus tracking does that guy not seem to lose focus at the very end before the cut? Same with the next shot?

Was hoping for more A/B comparison shots and a bit more depth... but I guess all that should be coming soon.

dnavas
12-06-2016, 10:22 PM
Good find yourself... but I am confused by his review... at 1:10 he mentions how fast the autofocus is and it actually seems slow?


I think the remark was really more about how smooth it was -- if I remember correctly, there are actually settings for how fast you want AF to react to changes, so I'm not going to get too hung up about that. And as for whether AF was hunting at the end of clips ... I'm an awful judge, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and nod silently ;/


Was hoping for more A/B comparison shots and a bit more depth... but I guess all that should be coming soon.

Yeah, it was supposed to be all in 4k too, and I don't seem to get that option, which is disappointing. And I agree, this review was a lot less in-depth than the DVX200 review was. Not a lot of dissection about the color shifting (you can see in the clouds in a number of places, as well as the sparkling on the blue pants at the far left at 3:10). I've not the experience to tell what's going on there, but it does seem like I'll need to be careful with highlights blowing out. All that said, I note he liked filmlike3, and hated cine-like V, and so I'm forced into assuming he's shooting in some high dynamic range environments.

Jase
12-06-2016, 11:15 PM
We also found out that the HXC-X1 and UX180 are really the same camera with just the SDI and timecode connectors different and of course there will likely be warranty differences too.

I've been following this thread as closely as possible but I didn't realize that we knew for sure these 2 cams had the same sensor. Given the UX 90 and the UX 180 do not, I was concerned about that. SDI and timecode are not an issue for me so of we are certain about these 2 things being the only difference, I can see an HC-X1 in my future.

Ron, re warranties in your previous post. Fwiw in my contact with 2 different Panasonic dealers here in Vancouver both have emphasized that Panasonic Canada does not necessarily follow suit with the US counterpart. This in response to my queries around the DVX 200 and the current rebate in the US. Here in Canada, its a free bag, battery and charger which I believe the US previously had. Rebates and warranties are of course different things but the point being the apparent policy.

I've also been unable to find out anything from these dealers about either the HCX1 or the UX 180. Almost as if they only want to push what they can sell today. Not sure how helpful your Canadian sources may be but any info you may be able to pass on about either of these and their availability/price up here would be appreciated. I do see Vistek has prices listed at 4,299.00 and 4999.00 respectively.

Ron Evans
12-07-2016, 05:30 AM
The interview on Newshooter http://www.newsshooter.com/with Holden rep and Panasonic rep state clearly the HC-X1 and UX180 are the same camera other than the SDI and Timecode connections. Have not talked to local Panasonic dealers yet so cannot answer any of your queries but I have Vistek and Henrys in town that I will ask now.

dnavas
12-07-2016, 06:41 AM
The interview on Newshooter http://www.newsshooter.com/with Holden rep and Panasonic rep state clearly the HC-X1 and UX180 are the same camera other than the SDI and Timecode connections. Have not talked to local Panasonic dealers yet so cannot answer any of your queries but I have Vistek and Henrys in town that I will ask now.

Yeah -- Vistek mentions Dec 15th for the HC-X1, same as Terry's date, while the UX180 is down for New Year's Day (which matches pretty well with "end of year" we're hearing elsewhere). When I talked to Samy's (which is closer to where I live), they said they hadn't been given a date, and BHPhoto said much the same (for both cameras). Panasonic's own site says "Estimated Ship Date: December 5th" which I pointed out to them yesterday was maybe not quite right. While I would have preferred that the issue was the availability date being preceded by the term "Pre-Order", it seems more likely that it's just missing a '1' in front of the "5" (they told me it would "be corrected" but didn't specify in what way :sigh: ).

Too bad. I would have liked to have used either camera at the Basilica downtown on the 12th, because I do believe the wide angle lens and better low-light would capture the ambience so much better than last year's attempt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tCrw0P3dKU&t=35m38s and on the 18th I believe I'm doing a much more extensive quartet recording, but the likelihood that I can get my hands on the camera AND learn to use it well enough by then is ... poor. Definitely a 1st-world problem, but frustrating anyway.

Bassman2003
12-07-2016, 08:34 AM
Thanks for posting. I would be interested and hope Panasonic comes out with a P2 version with a 720p60 mode. I would also like to see a side by side with a PX270 to see comparative gain settings. The much faster lens on the PX might even out the larger chip on these cameras. I can't give up 720p yet as it is just too useful for longer events.

Terry Nixon
12-07-2016, 12:25 PM
HC-X1 ETA has been pushed back a bit by Panasonic.

ETA to me is looking around Dec 19.

PANASONIC HC-X1 $3199.99 (https://shop.texasmediasystems.com/Panasonic-HC-X1-Ultra-HD-Professional-Camcorder-with-20X-LEICA-DICOMAR-Lens_p_6849.html)

firehawk
12-07-2016, 05:48 PM
Thanks Terry. I am still debating whether to be an early adopter (for 2016 tax reasons) or wait til the've been out a while, which would be the safer bet.

firehawk
12-07-2016, 06:07 PM
Pasted this from UX180 specs:
Full HD - 1920 x 1080 AVCHD
Compression Method: LongGOP
FPS: 59.94p/50p (bit rate: 25 Mb/s)

Isn't 1080 60P AVCHD 28 Mb/s ? And 30P about 24Mb/s?
What is the deal?

I also see that 720 60P is like 8Mb/s, which must be some sort of low quality thing. Why no PH mode 720 60P like the older cameras?

Barry_Green
12-07-2016, 07:14 PM
1080/60p PS mode is average 25mbps, max about 28mbps.

1080/PH mode is average 21 mbps, max 24mbps.

The 720/60p is not the PH mode from prior AVCCAM cameras, it is PM mode which is a very low bandwidth file format. I wish it also offered PH mode for very high quality AVCHD recording, but it doesn't. They stopped putting in PH 720p mode a while ago; the DVX200 doesn't have it, the UX90 and UX180 don't have it, the HC-X1000 doesn't have it, and the AC90 doesn't have it either. I think the AC130/AC160 was probably the last time that a Panasonic camera offered PH 720/60p mode.

firehawk
12-07-2016, 08:31 PM
Thanks Barry!
I had temporarily forgotten those were max bit rates and also forgot about the exclusion of PH 720 in the last few years.
I guess that low bandwidth 720 PM mode wouldn't downscale to very good SD DVDs either. I suppose it's useful for low bandwidth applications and maybe something like long events/games where coaches want to review but don't need good quality.

Bassman2003
12-08-2016, 06:45 AM
I use the proxy recording feature a lot on my PX270 which has a 6mbps 720p file which is perfect for quick turnaround handoffs. But I also shoot a lot using the AVC-Ultra 720p60 mode for long concerts, shows and recitals where I know I am going to DVD or Blu-ray. The 720p60 on the PX270 looks amazing and at 25mbps is very friendly to work with. But I guess they are thinking the 1080p60 AVCHD is the same bitrate, so why not use 1080p? Maybe they are right.

dnavas
12-08-2016, 07:14 AM
ETA to me is looking around Dec 19.


If I weren't in such a state of denial, I'd be out making arrangements to rent a DVX200 or something :sigh: :cry: :beat head on wall:

If there's a four day delay for every 6 days of real-time, we're about a month out. I wouldn't be surprised -- any delay not attributable to shipping at this point is likely to compound now anyway. All of my packages are being delayed in one warehouse or another, and the last one I got (yesterday) looked like a pitbull decided to play with it. As always, Christmas wreaks havoc with shipping.

Terry Nixon
12-08-2016, 07:36 AM
i'm thinking about deferring delivery until 2017 to avoid inventory taxes.


Thanks Terry. I am still debating whether to be an early adopter (for 2016 tax reasons) or wait til the've been out a while, which would be the safer bet.

firehawk
12-08-2016, 09:32 AM
i'm thinking about deferring delivery until 2017 to avoid inventory taxes.
Good idea...unless they will all sell out before 2017. Don't know how likely that is.