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michaelaranda
12-15-2015, 08:05 PM
Hello! I've rented a DVX200 to try out for the next few weeks. With the footage I shot this evening, I've noticed it has some kind of visual echo, with highlights persisting for a few frames. You can see it along the girl's forehead in this clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF9KxosqgsM

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced a similar issue; I'm sort of at a loss about how to fix it. I've been tweaking settings for a couple hours, but nothing seems to make it go away. I'll keep fiddling, and report back if I figure anything out. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, I'd be grateful.

Speedster159
12-16-2015, 08:36 AM
Hello! I've rented a DVX200 to try out for the next few weeks. With the footage I shot this evening, I've noticed it has some kind of visual echo, with highlights persisting for a few frames. You can see it along the girl's forehead in this clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF9KxosqgsM

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced a similar issue; I'm sort of at a loss about how to fix it. I've been tweaking settings for a couple hours, but nothing seems to make it go away. I'll keep fiddling, and report back if I figure anything out. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, I'd be grateful.

Looks like Noise Reduction/NR Control when set too high. It looks similar to what I've experienced with my HC-X1000 when I had the NR setting on a high setting.

bluesgeek
12-16-2015, 10:05 PM
What's your shutter speed?

fastfinger
12-17-2015, 06:38 AM
Hello! I've rented a DVX200 to try out for the next few weeks. With the footage I shot this evening, I've noticed it has some kind of visual echo, with highlights persisting for a few frames. You can see it along the girl's forehead in this clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF9KxosqgsM

I'm curious if anyone else has experienced a similar issue; I'm sort of at a loss about how to fix it. I've been tweaking settings for a couple hours, but nothing seems to make it go away. I'll keep fiddling, and report back if I figure anything out. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, I'd be grateful.


Looks like the ghosting I get when I don't disable auto resample in Sony Vegas. I also have experienced this shooting interlaced 60i

bluesgeek
12-17-2015, 08:20 AM
Just to ask more clearly, you're not in auto-shutter? You need to see the shutter speed displayed on the display.

michaelaranda
12-17-2015, 11:04 AM
Just to ask more clearly, you're not in auto-shutter? You need to see the shutter speed displayed on the display.
Nah, this was at 1/48.

In the last day of playing with the camera, it only seems to do the ghosting thing in low-light situations.

michaelaranda
12-17-2015, 11:06 AM
Looks like Noise Reduction/NR Control when set too high. It looks similar to what I've experienced with my HC-X1000 when I had the NR setting on a high setting.

I was shooting in V-LOG at the time, so the camera shouldn't have been doing any noise reduction. I don't think I even have access to those settings when in V-LOG mode.

harddrive
12-17-2015, 05:04 PM
I was shooting in V-LOG at the time, so the camera shouldn't have been doing any noise reduction. I don't think I even have access to those settings when in V-LOG mode.
On the HPX370 there was something called "PAP" which caused quite a few headaches when the camera first came out. It did exactly as Speedster159 said - noise reduction which gave a less noisy output by working across a number of frames.

The trouble came when there was movement in the shot, and a moving object could leave behind a "ghost trail". Much of the time may not be noticeable, but could be a problem if brought out by post work. (I saw a chroma key sequence rendered effectively unusable by the effect.)

Eventually, Panasonic enabled it to be switchable (and I'd recommend it normally to be left out). From memory, I think the options were "PAP Type 1" and "PAP Type 2" and (I think) Type 1 enables it, Type 2 disables it. So if you found a menu with PAP enabled (or just set to "Type 1") you could have quite aggressive inter-frame noise reduction without being aware of it.

Only other thing I can think of to check is the camera is set to "true" progressive, and not psf - outputting 24p via interlace. (The psf then being incorrectly interpreted.)

Greg Smith
12-17-2015, 06:46 PM
Two thoughts -- no answers:

1) Did you have the High Sensitivity mode engaged? As I understand it, this is the successor to the PAP mode that harddrive mentioned. I don't know if it works exactly the same way, but should probably be turned off for critical work.

2) Any chance this is something optical? Reflections from a poorly coated protective filter or some such? Make sure the lens hood is on and there's nothing screwed into the front of the lens.

- Greg

harddrive
12-18-2015, 07:48 AM
2) Any chance this is something optical? Reflections from a poorly coated protective filter or some such? Make sure the lens hood is on and there's nothing screwed into the front of the lens.

- Greg
That seems unlikely, as looking at the original clip the problem is very movement related, and the faster the movement, the greater the separation between "echoes". Which seems to imply it's due to previous frames registering as the "ghosts" - which is why it sounds so similar to me as the original problem with the HPX370, and noise reduction related.

Further to Greg's remark about High Sensitivity mode, what about differing gain settings? Does that make any difference? I'm just wondering if engaging more gain may automatically mean more noise reduction, and hence more "echoing".....? (Even if the operator is not aware it's being switched in.)

Jonny Gross
12-20-2015, 06:47 AM
This is exactly the problem I'm having!

https://youtu.be/AAvAaTXgL10

It's occurring in v-log, the scene file settings and noise reduction settings are all disabled, shutter is constantly manual at 1/50 (PAL) and high sens mode is off. I haven't noticed this in any other footage online, aside from here. Is it a faulty unit? A mystery that has yet to be solved. Barry Green?

Mathew
01-04-2016, 12:08 PM
I've seen this same problem with my Panasonic AC90. I don't remember getting much help here on the forums about it. It was most noticeable on movement in front of a high contrast background like your example. I seem to remember it being worse with the gain boosted up and slower shutter speeds. Really surprised it to be an issue with the DVX200 which is an expensive camera compared to the AC90.

strangways
01-05-2016, 03:00 PM
I've also seen this on someone's videos on the FZ300:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyzwdtjhKik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcTklwei3ow

Speedster159
01-24-2016, 09:21 PM
Really think this is still NR. I've dropped it on my X1000 and the ghosting/echo goes away.

Speedster159
01-25-2016, 11:59 PM
Here's a video with my HC-X1000. First is NR 0, NR -7, and finally NR +7


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP8exOmr3WU

michaelaranda
01-28-2016, 10:35 AM
I returned my DVX-200 rental earlier this month, and since then I've been picking through the footage little by little. I've uploaded a couple examples of image-quality issues I've discovered:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXstShG7lJg

I had the camera for about three weeks, and I tried flipping every setting every which-way, but I wasn't ever able to get rid of the weird ghosting thing. I've also experienced some color banding, which I've so far only noticed it in footage that I shot in V-Log mode.

Overall, I think I've gotta say I'm a little disappointed in the DVX-200. For five-grand, I was expecting fewer (or none) of these kinds of image-quality issues. I acknowledge that maybe I just had some settings wrong somewhere, so it might be my own fault, but I feel like I did a pretty thorough test of every setting available to me.

Unrelatedly, the camera is pretty big. Much bigger than I expected. I own an HPX-170, which is already big enough to draw attention when I take it out in public, and the DVX-200 makes the HPX look quite small. I usually try to stay at least SORT OF inconspicuous when filming out in public, but bringing the DVX up to my eye to film felt like I was shouldering a rocket launcher. The DVX200 seems well-suited for studio work where there's plenty of light, or in public settings where you don't mind your camera broadcasting to everyone nearby "I AM A CAMERAMAN AND I AM FILMING RIGHT NOW WITH MY BIG CAMERA".

Jonny Gross
02-05-2016, 03:36 AM
Hi Speedster - the functions on the DVX200 are not exactly the same as the HC-X1000. The NR function doesn't exist in the same capacity. If a firmware update is introduced that more clearly addresses that (ie, an actual NR setting in the menu) that might clear up the problem, but it still wouldn't explain the fact that in V-Log mode, all such functions are disabled and yet it still happens and in the worst way. In V-Log, there is no coring, master detail etc, and high sens mode is off, which is why I have posted ungraded V-Log footage, to illustrate my point. I still haven't come up with a solution to the problem. I'm still using the camera on shoots and it's ok, even great at times, but this is still highly frustrating.

Jonny Gross
02-05-2016, 03:41 AM
Hi Michael,

The ghosting is ugly and I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for an update.
The banding is new to me, but I would say that shooting V-Log internally is not ideal. You're grading 4:2:0 8 bit footage, so it's bound to do that. Eve the FS5 will do it. It's an irritating side effect of the price.

David Jimerson
02-05-2016, 12:06 PM
OK, as no one asked --

Is that in the original footage (does it look like that if you play it back in the camera), or is that what you see on the timeline?

Because it looks like frame-blending ghosting to me.

bluesgeek
02-05-2016, 05:04 PM
I believe from my experience with the camera and with the AC90 that this is a motion artifact exacerbated in low-light high-gain situations.

Jonny Gross
02-06-2016, 10:43 AM
It's in-camera, both in standby and record and in the recorded footage.

Jonny Gross
02-06-2016, 10:44 AM
It can also happen in broad daylight, no gain or high sens or anything else applied.

Jonny Gross
02-08-2016, 09:22 AM
Well, at the very least there's an answer to my question. This is a DVX200 problem, not a problem with my unit. The review below mentions it briefly. Question is, will Panasonic release a firmware update that allows the user to control whether or not noise reduction is applied? A far as I can tell, there isn't an option in the menu. It might also fix the skin smear I've been noticing in my interview footage. Knee mode and skin tone dtl are off.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/review-panasonic-ag-dvx200-43-sd-to-4k-fixed-lens-camcorder.html/2

michaelaranda
02-08-2016, 05:20 PM
OK, as no one asked --

Is that in the original footage (does it look like that if you play it back in the camera), or is that what you see on the timeline?

Because it looks like frame-blending ghosting to me.

In the more extreme cases, you can see it happening right on the camera's LCD screen as the footage is being captured. Before I knew the camera was recording the image that way, I just thought maybe the LCD had some ghosting, or something.

After importing the footage and discovering this issue, I did double-check that my timeline and my source footage were running at the same frame rate, and even tried disabling frame blending anyway. No effect.

strangways
02-09-2016, 06:06 PM
It looks like the Sony FS5 has the same problem. Welcome to the most popular camera design flaw of 2016 - temporal noise reduction that can't be disabled!
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/illustration-sony-fs5s-faulty-noise-reduction/

bluesgeek
02-09-2016, 08:39 PM
This is a DVX200 problem, not a problem with my unit. The review below mentions it briefly.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/review-panasonic-ag-dvx200-43-sd-to-4k-fixed-lens-camcorder.html/2


It looks like the Sony FS5 has the same problem. Welcome to the most popular camera design flaw of 2016 - temporal noise reduction that can't be disabled!
http://www.eoshd.com/2016/01/illustration-sony-fs5s-faulty-noise-reduction/

You can see in the eoshd.com Sony article photos some examples of the same kind of nasty fuzzy quality we're seeing on Pannys since the AC90... and now the DVX200. I'd rather have conventional noise on an otherwise clean image (if that makes any sense). The textured macroblocking look is kind of deceptive because it looks like a clean gained up image, but it is in fact a very unpalatable look to me. At least with conventional noise you can process with noise reduction. I'm not sure what you can do to clean up the fuzzy texture of macroblocking.

Jonny Gross
02-10-2016, 01:23 AM
You can see in the eoshd.com Sony article photos some examples of the same kind of nasty fuzzy quality we're seeing on Pannys since the AC90... and now the DVX200. I'd rather have conventional noise on an otherwise clean image (if that makes any sense). The textured macroblocking look is kind of deceptive because it looks like a clean gained up image, but it is in fact a very unpalatable look to me. At least with conventional noise you can process with noise reduction. I'm not sure what you can do to clean up the fuzzy texture of macroblocking.

It's ugly and as a result it smears skin tones and renders movement horribly. It's been bothering me since the first week. Am I supposed to sit and wait for a FW update that might never come? It should be controllable in the menu!

I'm shocked by the FS5. Was expecting a lot more from that.

Jonny Gross
02-10-2016, 10:26 AM
I have to say though, aside from that, I only just got around to trying Barry Green's scene files and I'm impressed. The cam really is paintable.

pancam
02-29-2016, 11:49 AM
you should try it 50 / 60p and editing software for set this

Jonny Gross
03-03-2016, 07:55 AM
It happens in all modes, 50p included.

Wesley Byram
05-03-2016, 03:16 PM
Just curious, but has anyone noticed any change in the ghosting with the latest firmware?

rerdmann
05-23-2016, 03:14 PM
Hi all,
the problem with "Visual Echo" (ghosting) is still going on, even in firmware-version 1.65. Up to four echos are recognizable. The echos are visible also in good light condition. I often film moving trains. At this motive, moving edges are normal. So I know what I am talking about.

I do not compared the DX200 with the current FS5. I compare it with my old UHD-Camera the JVC GY-HMQ10. Yes, it's unfair ;-). The HMQ10 is 4 years older (!) than the DVX200.
This HMQ10 produced no „Visual Echo“, no ghosting, I mean nothing, null, nil !
I can not understand what Panasonic is doing here, particulary while the cause of this problem, the interframe-noise-reduction, is obviously known since December.



In this context some word about noise. At normal light situations (-6db to +3db) the perceived noise-level of the DVX200 is ok but visible. If you analyse the noise you can clearly see the problem. The Problem is not the sensor-noise it is the compression artifact! What do you do if you have to much compression artifact? I increase the bit rate, and everything looks better. The DVX200 is able to record 200Mbps (FHD-Modus ALL-I) but in the UHD-Mode you are only allowed to record with maximum 150Mbps.

Summary : Instead of increasing the bit rate, panasonic trys to reduce the noise by a non disengageable interframe-noise-reduction what produce "Visual Echos". Congratulation

Panatastic
05-26-2016, 10:18 AM
I too am so disappointed in the lack of an update to fix this. I have had work all month where I need to pull still images from video for a client and have had to explain that even though I have this new amazing camera that I simply can't fix this. Really sad. Barry Green--any word on this?

rerdmann
05-30-2016, 12:44 PM
Firmware-version 1.71 is out now, but the problem with "Visual Echo" (ghosting) is still going on! It's a shame !

Larry Chapman
05-31-2016, 08:13 AM
I shot this over the weekend. F/W 1.65, 1080P, 59.94fps, 50Megabit, High Sens, +6db gain. I see motion blur, but no echo. Frame was exported from Premiere CS6 with no processing.
114224

Jonny Gross
05-31-2016, 08:32 AM
I shot this over the weekend. F/W 1.65, 1080P, 59.94fps, 50Megabit, High Sens, +6db gain. I see motion blur, but no echo. Frame was exported from Premiere CS6 with no processing.
114224

It's V-log that's the big problem. I see visual echo using scene files very rarely, but it's there. However it renders, for me, using v-log impossible. Still, I don't know how this looks when shooting with an external recorder in full 422 10 bit so, I can testify to that. I checked yesterday once again in v-log and it's still there. Not a terrible thing using the baked in scenes though.

rerdmann
05-31-2016, 11:17 AM
Hallo,

I think we are talking about a 4K-Camera, not about FHD futage and surely not about a 498×280pix.

I made only a quick and dirty test for the Firmware 1.71, so sorry about the bad quality. On the picture you can see my moving hand and the motion blur. But on the left side of my fingers you can see the ghosting-effect.

For this test I did not use the V-log. So the problem is not the V-log, the V-log is only intensifying the visibility.


114226,

Jonny Gross
05-31-2016, 02:44 PM
Hallo,

I think we are talking about a 4K-Camera, not about FHD futage and surely not about a 498×280pix.

I made only a quick and dirty test for the Firmware 1.71, so sorry about the bad quality. On the picture you can see my moving hand and the motion blur. But on the left side of my fingers you can see the ghosting-effect.

For this test I did not use the V-log. So the problem is not the V-log, the V-log is only intensifying the visibility.


114226,

Which is absolutely my point. I can live with the above, but ghosting in v-log is intolerable.

Larry Chapman
05-31-2016, 03:54 PM
Hallo,

I think we are talking about a 4K-Camera, not about FHD futage and surely not about a 498×280pix.

I made only a quick and dirty test for the Firmware 1.71, so sorry about the bad quality. On the picture you can see my moving hand and the motion blur. But on the left side of my fingers you can see the ghosting-effect.

For this test I did not use the V-log. So the problem is not the V-log, the V-log is only intensifying the visibility.


114226,

The forum s/w down sized the image, it was 1920x1080. Since nobody seems to care about non-Vlog FHD footage, I won't bother to find a way to upload the full res version.