JAN C. - image flip clarification

[smelni]

I think there is a clarification needed about the image flip everyone is requesting. I am an engineer and i KNOW its not so difficult.

We are not asking for the codec to flip the image. We are simply asking for the LCD viewfinder to flip the display image so that we can frame properly without using a magnet.

The code already exists and is in the camera - it is executed when the lcd is rotated to face the front of the camera. So the fix is to simply add a menu option that executes the same code when that option is selected.

Again no need to rewrite any encoders or decoder. We will flip the recorded image in post. that is no big deal to do

The only reason i could see why this wouldnt be this straightforward is if the lcd flip is performed in hardware but i doubt that it is.

I hope this clears it up - this is not a minor request - by putting a low priced camera with professional features in our hands, we are then often required to find ways to add the DOF - 35mm adapters are a major way and therefore this feature should (in my humble opinion) be on the critical list.

[mgalvan]

Yes, this is certainly up there as to features I would want added in the final HVX model. And very true, the image need only be flipped in the LCD/EVF for viewing purposes ... it can still record to the media storage the way it does now.

[J.R. Hudson]

So let me get this straight

You guys want Jan to ask Panasonic to have an option of flipping the image in the LCD (Just like when it's facing away from camera) just so it will be more convenient whilst using a 35mm adapter?

[ChuckS]

So let me get this straight

You guys want Jan to ask Panasonic to have an option of flipping the image in the LCD (Just like when it's facing away from camera) just so it will be more convenient whilst using a 35mm adapter?
Yeh, what's wrong with that?

[ArkhamFilms]

So let me get this straight

You guys want Jan to ask Panasonic to have an option of flipping the image in the LCD (Just like when it's facing away from camera) just so it will be more convenient whilst using a 35mm adapter?

Yup.

-CJ

[scharky]

Yes, absolutly, HERE HERE!

[J.R. Hudson]

Alright. Just asking.

Well can we have it look a little mre sexier too? Something like this?

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/235/prod_img/235_head.jpg

[mgalvan]

Ooohh ... I like :)

[ddh]

Image a neccessity, yep! That arri is sexy!

[Rich Lee]

what if they included a magnet with the camera, and a piece of tape? would that be ok?

[ArkhamFilms]

what if they included a magnet with the camera, and a piece of tape? would that be ok?

Considering user reports about the LCD being accidently closed while the magnet was still on, nearly causing the LCD to come off at its hinges, I don't think it's the best way to go. Some form of user control over the flip is ideal.

By the way Rich, congrats. Francis Lawrence's previz commentary had some great praise for you and your work on Constantine.

-CJ

[J.R. Hudson]

Although I welcome and support this being done for us users I find it hard pressed to see them actually do it so we can use another parties adapter; it has nothing to do with Panasonic and is OUR probelm is my point.

Playing Devils Advocate; sorry. Hate when that happens.

[Jan_Crittenden]

I don't assume that you mean like the mirror mode, but rather upside down to right side up? Right? And why don't the cheap adapters do this? and doesn't that mean that all of your footage is recorded upside down? Boy I am confused now.

Help an old girl out here. I thought I understood the problem, now I am questioning my understanding. Be nice. ;-)

Jan

[harlan]

Jan has already commented on the 'image flip' concept, saying that it's a good idea, but something that would have to come out in a later iteration of a camera as it's too late in the game for it to be included in the HVX200. That's not a quote by the way, but she did comment along those lines.

In regards to John's comments, I understand where you're coming from, but it's not something that would impede on a Panasonic product offering. It's nothing more than a feature adding to the total value of the camera. The VariCam has a similar function (if memory serves me correctly, I typically use standard 2/3" lenses on mine so the image flip isn't an issue).

[mgalvan]

I don't assume that you mean like the mirror mode, but rather upside down to right side up? Right? And why don't the cheap adapters do this? and doesn't that mean that all of your footage is recorded upside down? Boy I am confused now.

Help an old girl out here. I thought I understood the problem, now I am questioning my understanding. Be nice. ;-)

Jan

Yes, when you use these "cheap" adapters, they flip the image optically upside down. So what goes to the recording media is the image flipped. The only thing that we would need to be changed is the image from the adapter flipped back right side up so we can frame the shot accordingly. It can still record to the recording media as if we weren't using the adapter as this can be simply adjusted in post. As long as the LCD/EVF flips the image right side up for framing in the field, I believe everyone would be happy (including me). Is this possible? Please say yes :)

The Canon has this feature ... adding this to the HVX would seal my purchase ... I believe one of the reasons why these adapters can cost the way they do in comparison to the mini35 is that they don't do the image flip in the adapter like the mini35 does.

[sukram]

I don't assume that you mean like the mirror mode, but rather upside down to right side up? Right? And why don't the cheap adapters do this? and doesn't that mean that all of your footage is recorded upside down? Boy I am confused now.

Help an old girl out here. I thought I understood the problem, now I am questioning my understanding. Be nice. ;-)

Jan


These "cheap adapters" (for entire setup, roughly $1200 versus $10,000 for p+s technic mini35) flip the image upside down and right to left (a vertical AND horizontal flip - also known as flipping on both the X AND Y axis). Therefore, in post you have to flip all of the recorded footage vertically and horizontally in order to see it correctly. Of course, you can do this using any over-the-counter NLE, and thus its no problem. In the end, its a minor expense compared to getting an image that more closely approximates the "film look."

However, during production its a big problem, forcing any shooter to buy onboard monitors which will do both a vertical and horizontal flip. The same goes for the eyepiece. Even worse, people are sticking magnets onto the hinge of their LCD's (this is done in the DVX quite often) in order to flip the LCD image while shooting (a crazy but interesting hack). Does this make any sense?

The solution here is not to have the ability to flip recorded footage in camera - this we will do in post anyways. The request is to vertically flip the image on the LCD and in the eyepiece ONLY - or just the LCD for that matter - just like any onboard or transvideo monitor can do. I second the idea that this is a VITAL feature for my purchase of the hvx, not to mention young filmmakers/film schools.

Thanks for listening Jan.

markus

p.s. the cheap adapers can't do this for two reasons: (1) the optics required to do this significantly increase their prices, and (2) i think p+s technik has has this as part of their mini35 patent

[Barry_Green]

Right -- what they're asking for is a DSP function that would rotate the image 180 degrees before writing it to tape/card or outputting to the LCD. It could be a pre-processing step right after sampling the image into the digital grid. One subroutine that would apply for all modes; it's basically flipping the image horizontally and vertically. If it was done at the DSP level before any other work, then the flip should automatically propagate itself onto tape, onto P2, onto FireStore, and onto the LCD and VF and component outputs, onto S-video and composite...

... so that's what they're asking for. A subroutine at the lowest level that flips the image grid on the X and on the Y. If they implement it where I'm suggesting, then they should only have to do it once for all modes, all scan rates, all formats; it wouldn't need any additional testing because it'd either work (or not work) for all formats equally.

[Glenn_Gipson]

This may sound crazy, but if the HVX can't flip the image in the LCD, I'll get the Canon HDV instead (as long as the picture quality between the two cameras is comparable.)

[sukram]

Right -- what they're asking for is a DSP function that would rotate the image 180 degrees before writing it to tape/card or outputting to the LCD.


barry - i definitely do not understand what you are saying - sorry i'm a film guy making the transition. but if it makes it any easier, the footage itself recorded to p2 (or whatever) doesn't need to be flipped. that can be done in post without any loss in resolution, color res, etc.

its the image on the lcd and eyepiece that need to be flipped.

markus

[ArkhamFilms]

I don't assume that you mean like the mirror mode, but rather upside down to right side up? Right? And why don't the cheap adapters do this? and doesn't that mean that all of your footage is recorded upside down? Boy I am confused now.

Help an old girl out here. I thought I understood the problem, now I am questioning my understanding. Be nice. ;-)

Jan

I think there are two camps here.

#1) Flipping the image, so that the recorded image when using these "cheap[er] adapters" is right side up.
#2) Understanding that #1 would take a small engineering feat, I'd like to control the mirror mode, so that what we see on the LCD/EVF is right side up. The magnet trick that is used now, achieves this, but we'd rather not use a magnet. Pannining, tilting and tracking seems difficult when looking at an upside down image.
Then, in post, I would flop the image right side up.

Hope that helps... but I think I'm getting confused now.

Oh, and specifically with the G35, in order to minimize light loss, the adapter's image is upside down.

-CJ

[J.R. Hudson]

Wait a second:

Mgalvan says "The Canon has this feature ... adding this to the HVX would seal my purchase..."

and

Glenn says "but if the HVX can't flip the image in the LCD, I'll get the Canon HDV instead."

Now I've heard everything. You guys are too much.

[thisiswells]

Jan,

If this message makes it through the clutter, here are my thoughts. The only thing I've desired all along is a 180-degree flip in the viewfinder/lcd/video output. I don't mind one bit if the recorded signal to Tape/P2 is left alone. It is easy to make this adjustment in post.

The reason the M2 adapter is affordable is because they didn't build a custom, low quantity prism assembly to do this inversion. It seems much more affordable to make this adjustment in software than in custom, low quantity optics.

Honestly, the thought of actually adjusting the codec's to record something different to tape never once occurred to me. So, even adding a "simple" viewfinder flip would easily make the HVX200 upgrade a no brainer for me (while I continue recording on MiniDV tape for the forseeable future).

Hope this helps,
Brian Wells

[khmuse]

These guys can't be serious. LCD image flip is a make or break feature? The priorities that some people place on this amazes me.

[smelni]

A flip at the lowest level is NOT the easiest solution.

The easiest solution IS ALREADY built into the camera. When we trick the LCD with a magnet - the image is correct - flipped on x and y. So all that needs to be done - TO MEET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT AND BE EASIEST - is to enable that same magnet function in a menu option - period.

This would not require recoding of anything EXCEPT the menu function. The image is still written the same way and therefore no basic functions need to be change.

I have a down payment in for the hvx - but the M2 35mm adapter will arrive for me soon - if i test and its amazing and we decide to use it - i MIGHT (only MIGHT) have to consider another camera so that i can use it without external monitors. Many, many people will be purchasing these adapters - and yes this effects only the <1000 dollar adapters - which is a product the hvx audience will purchase due to its price point - not the expensive ones that utilize extras lenses to flip it for you.

There is no reason for panasonic not to do this - they do not sell any competing 35mm product. But it will provide support that a lot of us are looking for.

Jan - please, if you do not understand completely PM me and we can contact each other and I will explain further - this, beleive me will be a feature well worth the "relatively" small amount of work.

[J.R. Hudson]

These guys can't be serious. LCD image flip is a make or break feature? The priorities that some people place on this amazes me.

Thank god it's not just me who thinks this.

Bizarre

[smelni]

Well - if using a 35mm adapter is an important thing to a filmmaker - then this is an important feature - i dont think its a dealbreaker - but for something so simple - why not?

[khmuse]

Well - if using a 35mm adapter is an important thing to a filmmaker - then this is an important feature - i dont think its a dealbreaker - but for something so simple - why not?

The presence or lack of an LCD image flip feature has no real impact on the ability to use a 35mm adapter.

[J.R. Hudson]

Or why not just use a production monitor? For it to be a dealbreaker is comical IMO.

[thisiswells]

Or why not just use a production monitor?
And, turn it upside down? That distorts the colors and evidently isn't good for the monitor. LCD on board monitors lack the resolution required for critical monitoring. Then, there's the viewfinder issue...

The point is with a seemingly uncomplicated "switch" on the camera, users could potentially save over $10K by not having to buy a P+S Technik adapter and get the same functionality using the M2 adapter.

It's not that it's a deal breaker, but it would definitely make the deal sweeter. :beer:

[J.R. Hudson]

I agree; it would be sweeter

[Jay Rodriguez]

be nice to have this feature but overall, it's simply too late.....

[sukram]

And, turn it upside down? That distorts the colors and evidently isn't good for the monitor. LCD on board monitors lack the resolution required for critical monitoring. Then, there's the viewfinder issue...


IMHO, there is no such thing as critical monitoring... Not to insult, I just don't know any better. Every film prior to 1985 never had an onboard, much less a "video village." And even today, viewfinder optics continue to deny one the "true image" that you will see on film AND video. So a great LCD/viewfinder are nice, but not dealbreakers. LCD's and viewfinders are there to help you frame your picture. You frame on an image, not image perfection. There are plenty of examples of this in film, present day. HD directors will adjust gammas on set, newer DP's will light from the monitors, agencies will judge based on what they see on the video screen, but the end - and those are the people who will buy this camera - the big deal about this camera is 4:2:2, DVCPRO HD, P2, and 1080 24p (i can't even believe it!). All we need is a decent image, an upright one at that if you wish to use a 35 converter.

However, PLEASE DON'T USE THIS TO DISTRACT FROM THE NOTED SUBJECT.

Finally, John, no need to laugh at this request. And for others, docu/news makers, i know this camera may already be perfect. We're just throwing in our 2 cents. Thanks, and please no more flames.

markus


edit - just saw john's past posts.... nevermind

[Policar]

It sounds as though this feature (or even--better yet--a feature that records footage flipped so no additional processing is necessary) is on its way to the "hvx200a" and is already availible in the Canon.

Consider how small the "cheap 35mm adapter-user" market is, this is really remarkable and, in my opinion, shows how people are really having their voices heard. I think a flipping in the LCD, not of the native footage, feature is pointless, though, to some extent. It's not a very good solution, could potentially be confusing, and editing upside down--while not much of a problem in dv--could be an issue in HD since flipping the image takes more processing power.

I see how this could be a "make or break" feature for some: shooting upside down is HORRIBLE. Using a magnet is not much better. But I don't think it's a make or break feature for more than a few, so I can understand why it's not a priority. But I disagree with John's dismissive attitude, too. After all, the Varicam does have this feature.

Still, let's be reasonable. Shooting upside down or using an external monitor isn't the end of the world. If you're going to be pulling focus with 35mm lenses in hi-def, you probably need a really nice external monitor anyway since the DoF will be shallow and the circle of confusion very small compared with DV.

[J.R. Hudson]

Finally, John, no need to laugh at this request. And for others, docu/news makers, i know this camera may already be perfect. We're just throwing in our 2 cents. Thanks, and please no more flames.

markus


edit - just saw john's past posts.... nevermind

LOL

Nevermind? :huh:

You'll know when you're being flamed by me. I come in with a full air assualt. And I still stand that if it's a dealbreaker to you then it's comically absurd. It's a nice option to see them make available but this whole "I'll just get this camera" or "All bet's are off" attitude is ridciulous.

Flames. Don't be paranoid markus. :beer:

[dregenthal]

LOL

Nevermind? :huh:

. . . but this whole "I'll just get this camera" or "All bet's are off" attitude is ridciulous.

Flames. Don't be paranoid markus. :beer:

You mean the HVX doesn't have the flip AND A MINI35 ADAPTER built in? Why just for that I'm going to go with the 1957 Kodak Browine equipment! And after spending the entire day reading this thread upside down it finally hits me I just need to turn the monitor (or camera) over--jeez!

Maybe Redrock or Serious Magic will bail us out on this if Panasonic is not able to add the feature, but on a more serious note: I'm going with the P2's . . . and perhaps the Focus Enhancements solution once it becomes available (I like the idea of uploading the digitzed footage), but when I do the flip in post won't I have to render? (I use both PPro 1.5 and Avid Express Pro HD). Thanks.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

You can also use mirrors.

[Owen]

This really does seem like such a simple feature to implement -- so simple that it seems like it's ALREADY partially implemented in the DVX.

When you rotate the flip out monitor on the DVX to face towards the front of the cam instead of the back the image automatically flips to re-orient itself based on monitor position. Obviously the technology is already in the camera. All we really need is a menu option or button to activate that technology without rotating the flip-out monitor... isn't it?

[Barry_Green]

barry - i definitely do not understand what you are saying - sorry i'm a film guy making the transition. but if it makes it any easier, the footage itself recorded to p2 (or whatever) doesn't need to be flipped. that can be done in post without any loss in resolution, color res, etc.
I'm a programmer (or was), so I may be getting a little esoteric, but basically what I was saying is: it'd be easier for everyone to just flip it at the lowest level. That way it would display on the LCD properly, it'd display on the analog component outputs properly, it'd display in the viewfinder properly, *and* it'd record properly!

No need to flip anything in post -- it can all be done at the base level.

The thing is, the circuitry is probably "locked", and probably long ago -- it's way past time for adding new features, I'm sure. Now it's all about refining and polishing, not about adding. But, if they can sneak it in, that'd be a nice little bonus...

[mgalvan]

This really does seem like such a simple feature to implement -- so simple that it seems like it's ALREADY partially implemented in the DVX.

When you rotate the flip out monitor on the DVX to face towards the front of the cam instead of the back the image automatically flips to re-orient itself based on monitor position. Obviously the technology is already in the camera. All we really need is a menu option or button to activate that technology without rotating the flip-out monitor... isn't it?

That's what it seems like to me ... it seems does exist in camera in some way ... its just a matter of making it menu accessible.

[mgalvan]

LOL

Nevermind? :huh:

You'll know when you're being flamed by me. I come in with a full air assualt. And I still stand that if it's a dealbreaker to you then it's comically absurd. It's a nice option to see them make available but this whole "I'll just get this camera" or "All bet's are off" attitude is ridciulous.

Flames. Don't be paranoid markus. :beer:

To me, I never said it was a deal breaker, simply that it would seal the deal for me. I'm torn between both the HVX200 and the XLH1, after testing them both out at Resfest (Canon's being a final model while the HVX only 85% done). Both have pros and cons that I like and they both are so close to being able to fulfill my production needs that it has come down to "small features" such as this flip in helping me to determine which one I would like to buy, as of now ...

[redindian]

please, if you do not understand completely PM me and we can contact each other and I will explain further .


maybe a JPG picture would help....

[Boomerang]

.....why not just by the monfortto fig rig and hold the camera upside down. I like that better than buying a canon.

[mikkowilson]

LOL!

..incidently, by flipping the entire camera, you'd correct the image on tape.. but the LCD woudl be upside down,a nd you'd still be in trouble! :-P

- Mikko

[khmuse]

This isn't an issue unique to adapters, low mode on a steadicam usually has the camera upside down as well. Frankly, the LCD isn't really good enough for anything but setting up the camera anyway. Just use a real monitor and all the problems are solved.

[sukram]

.....why not just by the monfortto fig rig and hold the camera upside down. I like that better than buying a canon.

oh... and you would have to shoot through a mirror.

[mikkowilson]

With Steadicam we normally use a either a special clamp on the handle, or a cage around the camera so that we can mount it hanging from the rig so it's the right way up when we shoot. The monitor is then flipped, either physically or electronically.
Sometimes though we do just shoot with the camera upside down and flip in post.. this only works for non-live video.

- Mikko

[Glenn_Gipson]

Yeah, if the picture quality is comparable between the two cameras, I would definately get the Canon over the HVX 200...IF the HVX200 can't flip the image in the LCD/viewfinder. True, while a production monitor is far more accurate then an LCD/viewfinder, it would really eat up time and be a pain in the ass just to have to use an external production monitor for INITIAL framing. For initial framing, I don't think anyone here uses an external monitor over the LCD/Viewfinder. An external monitor's primary function is to get an accurate sense of focus, light, and color. Also, I think it's safe to say that a huge chunk of the HVX200's sales are going to be from Indie fictional filmmakers...or at least a lot of people that will be doing Indie fictional film work as part of their other gigs.

The bottom line is this: If the HVX doesn't flip the image in the LCD/viewfinder, count on spending an additional 600 dollars for an external portable LCD that can be mounted on the top of the camera (when using an inexpensive 35mm adapter.)

[obin]

I will also get the Canon for this reason alone, as I NEVER shoot any real project anymore without my trusty "Cheap" homemade 35 setup, everything elses looks like CHEAP VIDEO now, even if it's a HD variCam with 2/3inch chips!!!

It's night and day, and when the makers of cameras WAKE UP and smell what is going on here, then MAYBE we will have a 35mm sized sensor along with all the other bells and whistles we get on our cameras as an option.

Like I have said before, I think the big boys Sony/Canon/Panasonic?JVC are still in the "VIdeo" dark ages with the new HD offerings, because it's the DOF sensor size and lenses on a 35mm film camera that make the images, I would take 1/2 the resolution for a HUGE 35mm chip size, all it takes is one look at the images you can produce with the "cheap" 35mm systems to see what a "movie" should look like. it's black and white night and day.

someone needs to show the reps what we are talking about. and do it soon before the HVX200A comes out.

I almost feel as though they don't really know what's going on and what we want, I mean HD-SDI GREAT. That does not get you "the look" of a real movie.

[spieden]

which "cheap" 35 setup do you use?

[arkham]

which "cheap" 35 setup do you use?

If I am not mistaken, Obin is using a DVX100, an Andromeda and a Micro35. Great setup: just watch Obin's clips at Andromeda's web site: http://www.reel-stream.com