So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at??

[mmm]

So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at??

Canon XLs have always been a bit of Indie filmmaking camera, but the XL-H1 is $9000, a lot for Indie filmmakers.

Also why use interlaced CCDs if your market is mainly progressive? Maybe they realised they could achieve an effect as good as 24p/25p/30p with interlaced chips.

Then there is the HD-SDI output - not a typical indie tool.

So you would think Canon is moving away from the Indie filmmaker, BUT then they add a viewfinder flip mode to make life easier when using lens adapters like the Mini35. This feature is pure Indie, in fact, they are the only manufacturer to have listened to this regular Indie request - even Panasonic has ignored it on the HVX apparently.

So is Canon just trying to please everyone, or is this still an Indie XL series camera and there was a sale going on HD-SDI interfaces and they thought what the hell? Will this camera be a jack of all trades?

[Walter_Graff]

I think just like with Panasonic, you are going to start to see more cameras at higher prices. It started as a consumer industry. If it was pro it cost 40 times more at one point. But the differences were substantial. Then folks wanted more and the low end cameras started to see more pro features added. The first generation cams gave a lot for the buck (and they were considered pretty expensive) but folks keep asking for more. And more means more cost and so you are starting to see a new generation of cameras that cost more but then again give folks what they have been asking for.

The HVX is the next generation of the DVX and because of the added features raised the price substantially. And the H1 is the next generation of the XL2 and it too costs more. I think Canons addition of many ways of interconnection talks to folks that want to record with multiple cameras. Before all one could do was shoot with multiple cameras and deal with sound and sync problems later. Now I can record a concert in HD and know that all the cameras are properly connected.

I think Panasonic looked at the DVX and thought of what would make it an HD camera, not considering as much outside of what they had a success with. Canon seems to me to have looked outside of what they had, looking a bit broader and decided in some ways to be what you said, a jack of all trades. As for who it's for? I think the answer is no different than asking who is the XL2 or DVX for. It's all about what feels better for you. Some folks will never realize the advantage of being able to use various lenses or simply don't need to. Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera. Or maybe Panasonic thinks P2 is viable outside of news. Time will tell.

I think because of the price point, the Canon version is for a slightly different crowd than the HVX. As for the interlaced question, who says that their market is progressive? It's still very much an interlaced world. Sony knew that and made a segmented frame system. It will take some time before progressive TV really is progressive TV. In the mean time we have methods that still work in today's atmosphere but have potential later.

As I said someone who does design work for Canon made it clear to me that they like to sit on the sideline and watch what develops then fill in the blanks where others don't . I think they did that offering such things as the flip mode, etc. I haven't mentioned Sony because I think their entry is the weakest of all. But in the end there is room for all.

[Haakon]

Maybe Panasonic thinks P2 is viable outside of news. Time will tell.
Gee, ya think? *rolls eyes*

[Michael Wisniewski]

... but the XL H1 is $9000, a lot for Indie filmmakers. Depends on which "indie" filmmakers you're talking to. For independents coming up from the DV world, it's expensive, for independents who are coming down from the Film world, it's cheap.

I don't think the H1 is aimed directly at the average DVX/GL/VX user, we'll have to wait for the GL3 for that. But in that group, it's probably aimed at DVX users more than other camcorder users.

That's not to say that the H1 isn't enticing for independent DV filmmakers, it's just not aimed "directly" at their market.

[SquidLips]

I think MMMMs question is a good one and I ask the same thing.

Some people are making mostly "event" work, concerts, news casts, documentaries, etc. That looks for certain things in a camera.

Others (like me) are looking for the features more closely associated to film cameras to make "movies". That requires other things such as Depth Of Field variation, variable frame rates, etc.

There are over lapping factors to consider for both like battery life, recording options and cost, etc. I may be wrong, but if things are as they are printed, the HVX seems to be the best buck for the indie filmmaker (non-documentary) as it has a nice price, variable frames, the ability to use the min 35 and a tape or hardware recording option. That is why it is winning me as the "best" camera for what I do.

It has cons, such as the battery life and the inability to shoot HD on tape. I also don't like the look and physical function of it. I hope the rumors of variable frames for the Canon are true as that may hedge me to it as I love the look and lens variation as well as the HD to tape.

(I may be mistaken on some of my deductions above in terms of camera functions but I'm sure they'll be corrected).

So, those taken into consideration...is the Canon H1 geared up more for indie films or event style work?

[stephenlnoe]

Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera. Or maybe Panasonic thinks P2 is viable outside of news. Time will tell.

I couldn't agree more with this. Even the SDX800's P2 brochure list the HVX200 as a hand held newsgathering camera for use in a P2 news gathering organization. Take a look at the workflow. This is P2 in a nutshell:

http://www.planetliquid.us/web_video/szn89productions/p2workflow.png

This of course is a full blown P2 news workflow. Take a close look at it, the data archive server and the material server are needed as well as a laptop and possibly the P2 deck. It's a very nice system but it cost a lot.




On the other hand there is the HDV workflow which would be JVC or H1 or Z1
http://www.planetliquid.us/web_video/szn89productions/hdvworkflow.png
Instead it provides a built in archive method via the delivery media. Click here to view all of the HDV workflows (http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/pro/prohd/index.html) (including filmout) designed by JVC. It is on the left hand side of the page under "applications". These flows would be common to all HDV devices.

[Barry_Green]

It has cons, such as the battery life
A con? Are you confusing the HD100 with the HVX? The HD100 has limited battery life (about 30 minutes per battery) but the HVX should have massive battery life -- it should run for over five hours on a single battery.
and the inability to shoot HD on tape.
That can be a plus or a minus, depending on what your satisfaction level is with HD on tape. If you think HDV is satisfactory, then you could view the HVX's inability to record HDV as a con. If you think that HD on tape is only satisfactory when it's recorded at HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD quality, then I don't see how you could view this as a con. Plus, tape is a miserable format to shoot on, and is gasping at its last legs. Tapeless is here now, and is far superior. We're now seeing cameras from every major manufacturer offering a tapeless solution, so I think being tied to a tape format is a huge drawback. Spend 10 minutes with any tapeless recording system (whether XDCAM, XDCAM HD, P2, FireStore, Infinity, Everio, etc) and you won't want to ever scan and digitize a tape again.

I also don't like the look and physical function of it.
Y'know, a lot of people seem turned off by that, which is kind of funny, I think Panasonic probably chose that form factor specifically because it looks like a continuation of the DVX, which has got to be Panasonic's biggest-selling, most popular camera of all time. So I'm sure they felt that giving the customer a high-def DVX would be the best possible choice... I guess when you get around the $6,000 price tag, people don't necessarily want to see the handheld form factor. Yet the Z1 uses the same form factor, and I haven't heard anyone say "boy, I'd love a Sony Z1 but just can't stand that handheld shape..."

I'd love to see a bigger, 4-XLR, shoulder-mount, interchangeable-lens version too. Probably add three or four thousand dollars to the cost, but I think that'd be a dynamite camera. Even if it was $3000 more, that'd only bring it up to the cost level of the XL H1...

I hope the rumors of variable frames for the Canon are true
What rumors? There have been no rumors that I have heard. The Canon is 60i, 24F, 30F. That's it. Unless you upgrade it to dual-standard, at which point you'd get 50i and 25F added. There are no variable frame rates, and it would be impossible to add variable frame rates to that camera. Besides, they've already announced the specifications -- there's nothing held back. What you read about is what you get -- how could there be rumors about variable frame rates?

So, those taken into consideration...is the Canon H1 geared up more for indie films or event style work?
How to answer this... well, let's try it this way: the unique features of the Canon are geared more towards live event coverage. The features that the Canon offers, that the other cameras don't, are more suitable for doing studio/event coverage. Or, put another way, the things you're paying more for are only really applicable to studio & event coverage. The ideal usage of its capabilities would be in live switching environments; that's where Canon's "Unique Selling Points" are.

That doesn't mean that's where it'll stay though. If "24F" proves in field testing (not in marketing literature or in salesmen's discussions, but actual field testing) to be as good as 24P, then obviously that will pique filmmaker's interests as well: 1080/24p is the "holy grail" for indie filmmakers. Interchangeable lenses will remain a nearly irrelevant feature until they produce some lenses that can interchange with it; JVC's approach is unquestionably superior in this regard (the JVC uses a slightly more common mount, they've already announced a lens that can be interchanged with it, and they're producing at least two lens mount adapters to let you use other lenses; the Canon apparently will not be able to use those type of lenses because the camera's handgrip will conflict, I don't know exactly but I believe that's what I read from Chris Hurd on DVInfo.net). So the XL H1's lens interchangeability may be limited to Canon-produced lenses, and none are yet announced so it may be a while before any are produced.

It all comes down to: what are you willing to compromise on? Assuming the chips and the DSP and the lens are roughly equivalent (which is a wild assumption, of course) then the XL H1's internal recording format to tape is vastly inferior to the HVX's, and its potential for recording off-camera is notably superior to the HVX's (HD-SDI vs. analog component), but any method of recording off-camera is going to be expensive and cumbersome, except the FireStore -- and there the HVX is vastly superior, recording DVCPRO-HD to the FireStore instead of HDV from the Canon. The HVX is a much more flexible camera in its recording capability (1080, 720, DVCPRO50, and variable frame rates), the XL H1 has the potential to be expanded more (interchangeable lenses, interchangeable viewfinder).

In the end, one should wait for the footage before getting too invested in one system or the other. If you need the unique selling points of the Canon, then your decision's already made. If either camera can work for you, then let's look to the footage for making a decision.

[SquidLips]

That was well done Barry....and as I stated above, any errors in my observations (battery life) would be corrected.

Buta s for the Canon frame rate rumors...they were actually on tis board. I recently looked the camera over on a website elsewhere and saw nothing listed so called them "rumors". I can only assume it would be announced at this stage, but then again...the HVX has not posted the exact frame rates theirs is capable of.

The look of the HVX again is a personal thing though I'm sure some love it. I just personally think the design of the Canon looks much more attractive and functionally more like the film cameras I am used to. Again, eye of the beholder....

But, I will wait until the hVX footage is available but you Barry have once again pointed to me that the Panny seems to be the indie filmmakers best friend. I will await for the footage with anticipation....

[mmm]

...1080/24p is the "holy grail" for indie filmmakers.

I don't agree with that.

Indie filmmakers are in the search for "filmlook on the cheap." That is the true grail... without meaning so sound like a Monty Python quote.

1080p24 is one attempt at that. If you are trying to copy 1080p24, you are imitating an imitation.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at?People that need to build multi-camera HD-SDI studios on the cheap. Other than that, I have no idea.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera.
I couldn't agree more with this. Even the SDX800's P2 brochure list the HVX200 as a hand held newsgathering camera for use in a P2 news gathering organization.Actually, Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG. Our own internal engineering/management discussions regarding Panasonic's P2 format introduction at NAB2004 mainly consisted of comments like, "Boy, we would lose a LOT of those cards."

[Haakon]

Actually, not quite. Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG.
Just out of curiosity, can you explain how they "blew it?" I know nothing about news acquisition, just interested in why you say that (especially seeing that your name is NBCshooter).

P.S. - Your "mobil station" clip was my main inspiration for getting a DVX eons ago... just thought I'd let you know that I really appreciated it!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Just out of curiosity, can you explain how they "blew it?" I know nothing about news acquisition, just interested in why you say that (especially seeing that your name is NBCshooter).

P.S. - Your "mobil station" clip was my main inspiration for getting a DVX eons ago... just thought I'd let you know that I really appreciated it!Hey, thanks! That's always so funny to hear from people who've seen that clip! Anyway, Panasonic "blew it" in the manner that they were unable to sell it to any major news organization. And my guess as to why would be the same reason we didn't buy into it--high storage costs (yeah, yeah, I know they're rewritable). But we would need a LOT of those cards, and we would also LOSE a LOT of those cards. Panasonic put a lot of eggs in their "P2 basket" and lost out to XDCAM for the ENG market. Not that the technology or product concept isn't good--it just isn't what the network news market wanted.

30-minute BetacamSP tape . . . . $5 (yup, that's what we pay, and it's Sony)
45-minute XDCAM disc . . . . . . . $30
4GB P2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$2,000

Which media would you rather lose?

[Ralph Oshiro]

REALLY SORRY ABOUT HIJACKING THIS THREAD!!! Go back to the Canon stuff!

[mmm]

Hi-jack away, it is really interesting what you are saying.

Maybe the thread can branch into, who the hell is P2 aimed at???? New thread maybe me thinks!

[David G. Smith]

I do not claim to know what Canon is thinking, but looking at this camera, I get the feeling that alot of what they are doing is kinda like Kevin Costner in Field of dreams. "If I build it they will come". I think that the unique capabilities of this camera will create its own niche. I would be willing to bet thou that this camera will become the King of Cable Access in the next few years.

[Barry_Green]

Pet peeve: Field of Dreams never said "If you build it, they will come." That line has been hijacked and turned into something it never was; people use it as justification for marketing ideas and such, and it's all a bogus misconception.

The line was: "If you build it, HE will come." Meaning Kevin's father. It had nothing to do with attracting a crowd.

[stephenlnoe]

Off Topic:
"If you build it, they will come"

That has been used for centuries about building churches and I think even Henry Ford used the same line to justify building the Model T. Except in his case I think it was "If you build it, they'll buy it" (or something of that nature).



On Topic:

P2 is OK if you're prepared for the workflow, which cost $$$$. Face it, nobody wants to loose their hard earned footage, so the workflow I posted is accurate to ensure retention of data. It's a wakup call for people who want to cruise around with a 4 hour firestore and think they've got all they need. This is simply not the case. You have to dump the firestore again and again, to where? The Archive. The Archive server is the missing piece along with the Material server if you don't want to put the index Dbase on your NLE.

Our group knows this workflow very well and we came to the same conclusion as NBC shooter's group. It cost too much bread.... Whether data's on tape or in P2 Or XDCam it's all digital. The price of tape is the time it takes to capture it and a possible dropout. They all carry the same ditial data (101010101010).

Speaking of capture time, most dedicated tape capture programs will capture index data @ 12X speed so a 60 minute tape can be indexed in 5 minutes. They can also batch capture from index without RW/FF jog.

[Haakon]

Off Topic:
P2 is OK if you're prepared for the workflow, which cost $$$$.
I don't know why I keep hearing this... obviously everyone that posts here has a computer and you'd need one to edit with regardless of what workflow you choose. So that's not an "additional cost" of P2. That being said, in a barebones setup, all you need is the HVX and one P2 card and you're good to go. You can transfer the data to a computer via firewire, straight from the card, in faster than realtime, and you can archive on a DL disc that costs 3 dollars. You don't need firestore at all, and after the initial investment of the camera, it's essentially free. The discs you back up to cost less than the DV tapes you'd be buying for whatever HDV solution the alternative presents. You spend $6K on the camera and $2K on the P2 card, and you're out the door. No extra costs. The only thing that NBCshooter has on the arguement is that if you lose a card, you've lost a crapload of money. True. Better keep track of your card.

[jrv3034]

I don't know why I keep hearing this... obviously everyone that posts here has a computer and you'd need one to edit with regardless of what workflow you choose. So that's not an "additional cost" of P2.

AHHHHH!!!! It's about time someone said that! Very true. The only expense is larger Hard Disks. And those are really getting cheap. You can already buy a terabyte for $900 from LaCie, or much cheaper if you build it yourself.

That being said, in a barebones setup, all you need is the HVX and one P2 card and you're good to go. You can transfer the data to a computer via firewire, straight from the card, in faster than realtime, and you can archive on a DL disc that costs 3 dollars. You don't need firestore at all, and after the initial investment of the camera, it's essentially free. The discs you back up to cost less than the DV tapes you'd be buying for whatever HDV solution the alternative presents. You spend $6K on the camera and $2K on the P2 card, and you're out the door. No extra costs.

Heck, if you're doing narrative filmmaking, all you need is one 4GB P2 card. Shouldn't cost more than $1000 by the time the HVX is around... Rarely will anyone need a shot that lasts more than four minutes.

The only thing that NBCshooter has on the arguement is that if you lose a card, you've lost a crapload of money. True. Better keep track of your card.

But you don't even have to take the card out of the HVX! Dump via USB2 to an external hard disk, and you're set. The P2 card remains in the camera the whole time.

[stephenlnoe]

Uhh... Did you two gents take a look at the workflow I posted above? Your ideas will work if you're willing to delete your files. If you want to keep the content then start looking for an archive method.

[Michael Wisniewski]

Re: P2 cards & archiving

It's one of those weird twilight zone scenarios, but I can imagine people archiving their P2 video onto a PC tape backup.

P2 > Hard Disk > Edit > Tape Backup ... when I think about it that way it seems a little convoluted.

[Walter_Graff]

"Actually, Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG. Our own internal engineering/management discussions regarding Panasonic's P2 format introduction at NAB2004 mainly consisted of comments like, "Boy, we would lose a LOT of those cards."

Yes they sure did. But outside of them loosing the battle they did get a bit of saturation with P2 in the news industry but as I said, that's about all they did. A number of station groups bought into the P2 idea, but Panasonic is not strong on the marketing end and really has little to barter as does Sony so they lost their chance with the networks. Sony made some promises five years ago that kept NBC interested and sold CBS in the last year. I said from day one that P2 would be a failure professionally (think about it as the next M2) and I also predict it will be a disaster on the prosumer level. I got a chance to work with the Sony system and I have to say I like it.

[Ralph Oshiro]

But outside of them losing the battle they did get a bit of saturation with P2 in the news industry but as I said, that's about all they did.Yes. After re-reading your post, I see that your statement is probably correct when read in context. A few local news stations are probably the only segment of the market that have embraced the P2 strategy.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Whether data's on tape or in P2 Or XDCam it's all digital. The price of tape is the time it takes to capture it and a possible dropout. They all carry the same ditial data (101010101010).Actually, this brings up an ADVANTAGE of P2 over XDCAM (at this point). Data on P2 media is IMMEDIATELY usable, whereas the XDCAM datastream (although IP-addressable) is not. We currently have one pilot PDW-530 in-house, and the workflow is (for shoots that are NOT fed back via microwave): Shoot XDCAM -> put XDCAM disc in deck -> DIGITIZE (transcode to Avid).

IMO, Sony has over-marketed the "proxy" video feature of XDCAM. Proxy video is absolutely USELESS, to a daily news magazine show which must feed FULL-RES footage via microwave to waiting Avid editors, while they fiendishly cut the story to make a 1:00PM east coast network feed. No time in our workfow for ANY "pretend" cutting.

Again, SORRY FOR THE OFF-TOPIC, WANDERING POSTS . . .

[Luis Caffesse]

"I said from day one that P2 would be a failure professionally (think about it as the next M2) and I also predict it will be a disaster on the prosumer level.


Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?

Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well.

By the way....(showing my ignorance now).... what is M2? Obviously it was an utter failure, which is why I've never heard of it.

[Haakon]

Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?
Walter already answered your question for you:
I said from day one that P2 would be a failure professionally (think about it as the next M2) and I also predict it will be a disaster on the prosumer level.
But we already know what his biases are...

[Haakon]

Uhh... Did you two gents take a look at the workflow I posted above? Your ideas will work if you're willing to delete your files. If you want to keep the content then start looking for an archive method.
Yes, you will need an archive method. Funny enough, my post already mentioned that! :thumbsup:

You can use hard disks or optical discs or even go back to tape if you so desire. I like the optical disc method myself; it's cheap, readily available, and already suited for 1:1 card backups. By the time the bigger cards get out there, we'll have Blu-Ray or HD-DVD at our disposal and that will end the argument once and for all. At any rate, my specific reply to your post was that embracing a P2 workflow doesn't require any extra expense; in fact it can save you oodles. Whether or not you like the workflow is irrelevant.

[Walter_Graff]

"Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?"

Keep reading...

"Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well."

It already is. you just proved it. You said many people are excited about using it with Firestore. That means on it's own it isn't valid. So folks have to look at what is available and say do I want to buy something that I "think" I also need to buy other devices to make it work properly, or do I want to buy something that offers me what I am used to (having what I consider sufficient recording time) without additional cost. P2 is a fun idea and some think it's cool to plug in cards, but as a whole I think it will not be a success. They will not sell enough nor find a method of mass producing cards at reasonable prices.

[Antoine_Fabi]

I personally would have never looked at the HVX200/P2 alone.
It just doesn't fit in my personal workflow, even if i like Panasonic very much.

BUT

The Firestore will give the HVX portability, lightweight, convenience, a cost efficient solution. That's great !

If it works with the XLH1, then again, it's great !

People will judge the camcorder (HVX200, XLH1, HD100) for it's camera section and ergonomy and personal preference.
It seems ( IF I UNDERTAND CORRECTLY) that we will be able to capture in many available formats.

Do i understand correctly ?

[Luis Caffesse]

It already is. you just proved it. You said many people are excited about using it with Firestore. That means on it's own it isn't valid. So folks have to look at what is available and say do I want to buy something that I "think" I also need to buy other devices to make it work properly, or do I want to buy something that offers me what I am used to (having what I consider sufficient recording time) without additional cost.


You may be right about P2, time will definitely tell.
But I think you might be underestimating the value people will put on variable frame rates and the DVCProHD (and DVCPro50) codec.

I think it's quite possible for the HVX to sell well while P2 sales may never really take off. I guess I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive.

In the end it's 'perceived' value that matters...whether right or wrong. And there seems to be a pretty big "anti HDV" movement out there. Whether right or wrong it looks like a good piece of the market will take whatever HD alternative is out there that is not HDV.

So, while P2 might not sell...I still think the HVX will find a good piece of marketshare.
Will HDV cameras sell better? Very possibly... but I don't think that means the HVX will be a failure.

Time will tell for sure.

[braw]

This is simply my opinion, but I think the HVX will attract more attention from the indie film crowd. It is, barring a bad picture, the best setup for film like approach. I mean this from the standpoint of the codec. It's far friendlier for post work and visual effects from everything I can tell.

I think HDV is also good for independent narrative as well, but for very practically shot stuff. It's rare that anything that doesn't have a decent deal of "salt and pepper" added ex post facto gets in anyone’s homes, or on Blockbusters shelves. I very much feel that for small features now, it's so much less about if it was shot on video or film because of how much the gap has closed, but how much production value has gone into it overall. The ability for more elbowroom in post digitally is far more important than a removable lens, or longer telephoto. I would take shoulder mount and interchangeable lenses if I could, but the codec for me tips the scale too far.

P2 is a wonderful idea and concept, but like has been said a million times by both supporters and naysayers, it's expensive. A little beyond the ability to catch on like wildfire. I know the cards will drop in price, and I very much expect them to drop sooner and faster than what has been let on. Panasonic has been putting a lot behind this system, and before they let it die, I suspect they will let them go at a loss if no one wants them just to get them out there.

[esperman]

"Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?"

Keep reading...

"Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well."

It already is. you just proved it. You said many people are excited about using it with Firestore. That means on it's own it isn't valid. So folks have to look at what is available and say do I want to buy something that I "think" I also need to buy other devices to make it work properly, or do I want to buy something that offers me what I am used to (having what I consider sufficient recording time) without additional cost. P2 is a fun idea and some think it's cool to plug in cards, but as a whole I think it will not be a success. They will not sell enough nor find a method of mass producing cards at reasonable prices.

P2 will not be another M2. Flash memory prices are falling, and getting alot more storage capacity as well. XDCAM isn't that great....disc's can be damaged and you still have to transcode the files before editing.

In 2 years time, we'll be using more solidstate acquisition along with flash memory hybrid drives for storage. And next year we'll have 500 - 800 gig 3.5 harddrives anyways to backup footage (as well as blueray dvds around 50 gigs for backup as well)

And walter, when you moved to varicam..you bought a deck and everything else that was needed?? Same with this, except being alot less cash for DVCPRO HD.

P2 will be much more affordable for prosumers..... a P2 drive (1800) for connecting to an edit system, or a laptop with a pcmia slot for transferring files over the network. Anybody who can afford to buy an hxv200 or the XL H1 can afford P2.

Remember when 140meg hard drive cost more than what a 320 gig one now does? P2 will take off. Wether is DVD based, or flash based....tape will fade away.

[Fitz]

This thread is about who Canon is looking to market to with some of these things like HD-SDI, Genlock and what have you. Another market they may be going for is the local broadcasters once they make the transition to HD broadcasting. I know here in Atlanta I've seen Beta SX and DVCAM being used by local news crews meaning that when they start broadcasting all HD they will eventually have to switch to HD cameras unless they want to just upres SD footage. Atlanta is one of the 10 largest markets in the country so they could probably handle the cost of upgrading to pro HD cameras for local boradcasting over a short period of time. On the other hand in much of the rest of the country $50,000+ cameras might be a little out of the budget for "Up & at 'em Omaha". Some $9,000 camers that can output true HD could be great for places in smaller markets who want to capture in HD. Heck depending on the quality (and I've heard, but not seen first hand, many conflicting opinions about the reletive quality or lack thereof of HDV) it could even be good for ENG work in smaller markets. A news crew in Montana would certanly look more professional carrying around an XL-H1 than a HDX 200 or a Z1. Notice on Canon's own website for this camera they even have background music that sounds like the 6 O'clock news and the headline "Breaking News" about the camera.

Since Canon is such a big lens maker you know they will come out with a manual lens, and a wide angle lens for this camera.

[Tzedekh]

In the end, one should wait for the footage before getting too invested in one system or the other. If you need the unique selling points of the Canon, then your decision's already made. If either camera can work for you, then let's look to the footage for making a decision.That's what it has always boiled down to. Jan has already hinted that the HVX's CCD specs may, on paper, disappoint but that Panasonic was more interested in producing a camera that yielded as good an image as was possible given the limitations of a third-inch CCD. As to the rest of it -- the pet features we'd like to see -- I'm certain that Panasonic is working on that stuff.