24f?

[cannes1979]

Does anyone know if 24f is the same thing as 24p? Something tells me this is going to be like Sony's "Cineframe 24". Also, does anyone know if Canon will offer a manual lens? Any thoughts?

[Barry_S]

Well, apparently 24F is not the same as 24p or CF24--hence the new designation. We'll have to wait until we see footage for the final verdict. I think the hope is that although it's processed differently from 24p, the perceived cadence is identical or at least very close. I mean Canon already has "true" 24p in their XL-2, so it would be surprising for them to regress to a 24 fps analogue with irregular cadence or significant resolution loss.

[mmm]

I have said this elsewhere, but 24p is not the grail, 24fps film is! That is what we are aiming for. 24p looks just like 24fps film (although some people claim it doesn't), my guess is that 24F will too, without resolution loss.

Could they possibly be scanning both fields simultaneously in order to achieve this effect?

[Anhar Miah]

As far as my understanding goes, it may use a method as used my the Sony CinAlta HDW F900 and they way it captures the 1080P signal from the CCD, if so then It would be real 24P, but for technical reasons it can't be called 24P, hence 24F. But this is not to be mistaken by Sony FX1's CF24 which is just interlaced footaged that is processed in camera ro generate a progessive image.

This is not yet verifed

Anhar

[MattC]

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/articles/article06.php

The Canon 30F and 24F frame rates and the technology which creates them are related in no way whatsoever to the current Sony HDV implementations known as CineFrame 30 and CineFrame 24 (which have been commonly referred to as CF30 and CF24). Instead, the Canon 30F and 24F frame rates are identical to the 30P and 24P results produced by progressive scan CCDs. The Canon XL H1 CCD block is interlace, not progressive, therefore the 30fps and 24fps frame rates cannot be referred to technically as 30P and 24P. However, 30F and 24F from the XL H1 appear identical to 30P and 24P, as they are basically the same results as progressive, but produced by different means. When the XL H1 is set to Frame recording, the CCDs are actually clocked at 24 frames per second. The video signal remains at 24fps as it is passed from the CCD block to the baseband LSI, and through the HD Codec LSI. Only when it reaches the recording output stage is it resampled to 60i via a 3:2 pull-up method.

[Aaron Koolen]

So it seems, the chip is only able to ouput it's signal interlaced. But seeing as the shutter is at 24fps, then the chip, every 1/24th of a second get's a signal (On both fields). Then the DSP (Or whatever) reads it off the chip, interlaced. Is this right? If so, then it is a progessive signal, retrieved in an interlaced method, and who cares.

[dashwood]

Sounds like the XL1's "30F" Frame mode to me.

[johnnyspacecommand]

No, the XL1 has 30P not 30F, dashwood.

I hate it when people just make crap up that is imaginary.

That being said, I am still totally confused about what the Canon XLH1's "24 Frames" means.

[dhollister]

I'm confused, so it's not 24P but not CineFrame. All I care about is the LOOK. When you WATCH the footage, will it appear interlaced or will it play back as a solid image???

[stephenvv]

No, the XL1 has 30P not 30F, dashwood.

I hate it when people just make crap up that is imaginary.

That being said, I am still totally confused about what the Canon XLH1's "24 Frames" means.

Don't hate yourself - the XL1, XL1s, GL1, GL2 all do not have full rez 30P = they have frame movie mode with is 30 fps at 2/3 vertical resolution (using pixel shift) i.e. around 360 lines progressive.

[Simon Wyndham]

This sounds to me like PsF mode on the high end Sony's. For all intents and purposes it is true progressive scan as the final image.

I'm still awaiting an HD camera with specs that I require however. It will come eventually I hope.

[johnnyspacecommand]

?? Uh what stevenvv? Thanks for your info on the "XL H1" 24 Frame...

Anyways, this is an interesting development that came out of the blue. It will be interesting what applications both the HVX and the XL H1 will be used towards. It seems highly inconvenient to swap out P2 cards every few minutes or so, despite the data depth. On the other hand, if "24 Frame" on XL H1 is simply a deinterlaced 1080i then it may not compare in picture quality. Rather ambiguous at this point in time..

[Barry_Green]

All indications are that the "24f" is not something bogus like de-interlaced 1080i. It is, however, causing a lot of confusion -- so I do hope that as soon as someone gets one of these things in their hands, they have the opportunity to simply shoot a resolution chart in both 1080i mode and "24f" mode. Then we can answer one question instantly: if the 24F frame is lower in resolution than the 1080i frame, then it is unquestionably "bogus" (i.e., not the equivalent of actual 24p). If the 24f frame is higher resolution than the 1080i frame, well, we may very well have us a horse race.

[Walter_Graff]

The 24f that Canon uses works exactly like Sony's PsF method of obtaining 24fps. Since it is not a progressive chip thety simply do not call it P. No bull just a fantastic output. As for editing, it is edited natively in a 23.98fps timeline without any pulldown or additions. The camera also has a great cinegamma "film-out" setting that does just like what the Varicam does. And it has complete control including all matrix and gammas, it is the first camera in it's price range to offer the filmmaker absolute control like no other. Folks who have seen footage at Resfest have said that the picture it makes looks absolutely amazing considering the price and format. Canon seems to have done it again! I'll be having a look and have already set up for doing a filmout.

[David Jimerson]

It may well come out as progressive, but to Barry's point, whether it comes out as full 1080p resolution is another question, and being interlaced chips, it's a legit one. I guess we'll all be champing at the bit for test footage . . .

[stephenvv]

. Folks who have seen footage at Resfest have said that the picture it makes looks absolutely amazing considering the price and format. Canon seems to have done it again! I'll be having a look and have already set up for doing a filmout.

Err...the folks who were raving about the footage at ResFest were looking at the HVX200. The XL H1 was at the Canon Expo.

[Walter_Graff]

Yes you are correct. I was just reading some posts about Resfest and interchanged the events. Either way a few folks who emailed me said for the money and the format, they were very impressed. I did not get any direct feedback from anyone about the Panasonic camera so can't say.

[Walter_Graff]

It may well come out as progressive, but to Barry's point, whether it comes out as full 1080p resolution is another question, and being interlaced chips, it's a legit one. I guess we'll all be champing at the bit for test footage . . .


And how are you going to see this 1080p? Better question; can you see the difference if you had the ability?


http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000303057041/

[thisiswells]

it is the first camera in it's price range to offer the filmmaker absolute control like no other..
"like no other?" You know, I had a hunch that Canon was using Sony CCD's!! ;-)
http://www.sony.net/electronics/like.no.other/

[johnnyspacecommand]

Wow cool, a Canon HD camera. I knew they would come out with one and so why buy an XL2 or DVX100A?? ? Just to pine away desiring the HD version? No thanks. At least DVX100A owners have the Andromeda device option. And the XL1 users....well you know.....

It's nice that there is now a universe of options available to a filmmaker from SD to HD. Very cool. It's like Alice encountering Wonderland. If you don't know what you are doing on film, you can actually destroy your life on the gamble. I've seen people make their quick journey to the land of bitter grapes. With DV and DVCPRO, an indie filmmaker doesn't have to go through the bullshit of enduring financial hell and eternal bitterness because they screwed up the film stock match to the lighting or some minor detail or their story actually really was terrible crap or their actors were wonky or their effects were cheesy or their editor ruined the movie.

My very humble and serious advice to every indie filmmaker is to always exercise patience and remember that quality wins out over quantity.

[ChuckS]

It may well come out as progressive, but to Barry's point, whether it comes out as full 1080p resolution is another question, and being interlaced chips, it's a legit one. I guess we'll all be champing at the bit for test footage . . .
Well, I'll be very pleasantly surprised if the HVX can shoot 1080-P-24, :cheesy: that's quite an accomplishment. I'll be equally dissapointed if it can't. :cry:

What happened to 720P? :huh:

[mmm]

And how are you going to see this 1080p? Better question; can you see the difference if you had the ability?


http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000303057041/

This does seem to refer to 1080p60 more than 1080p30 or 1080p24, there are plenty of ways to view that. I think it holds the biggest advantage for big screen projection - that is the only reason I want it. Film-outs are going to become less of a consideration as cinemas convert to HD projection, talking mainly festivals here BTW.

I would put my money on the H1's 24F being higher res that Pany's 1080p24, Canon seem to really be bragging about pixel count and res... BUT it remains to be seen if they have neglected other (more important IMHO) aspects of picture quality.

[David Jimerson]

And how are you going to see this 1080p? Better question; can you see the difference if you had the ability?

On a computer monitor, and with a resolution chart.

Here, we're just talking about raw resolution comparison, to determine exactly what 24F is; everyday application is irrelevant.