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Screenforme
04-13-2015, 08:03 AM
I didn't see this posted yet:

Press release for AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder
At a press conference today at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) convention, Panasonic announced a range of new 4K production products, including the AG-DVX200 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder; AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera, and the AK-UC3000 4K-ready studio system.

Full Release

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150413005392/en/Panasonic-Announces-4K-Large-Sensor-Handheld-4K

dcloud
04-13-2015, 08:25 AM
Wtf is that

hscully
04-13-2015, 08:28 AM
Now where is that darn 35mm adapter I used 10 years ago. It's got to be here somewhere!

zijital
04-13-2015, 08:29 AM
To me, calling this a DVX200 seems like Panasonic is saying "fuck the HVX, it was a piece of garbage."

I mean, the HVX wasn't the best camera, but it was ground breaking & had a good run for it's day. Now the JVC HD1 / HD10, was just garbage.

Dan Keeble
04-13-2015, 08:30 AM
http://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-announces-the-ag-dvx200-4k-large-sensor-43-handheld-camcorder-and-the-gh4-firmware-udpate/


At a press conference today at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) convention, Panasonic announced a range of new 4K production products, including the AG-DVX200 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder; AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera, and the AK-UC3000 4K-ready studio system.AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder Features Top-End Performance
Offering many top-end features such 4K/60p recording, a 13X optical zoom and a V-Log L gamma curve (12 stops of latitude, target) and delivering a shallow depth of field and a wide field of view, the DVX200 is the ideal companion camera to the company’s groundbreaking VariCam 35 4K camera/recorder.
The DVX200 will be optimized for 4K/HD production and shares the esteemed VariCam family characteristics of filmic tonality and colorimetry, with natural, subtle rendering of skin flesh tones. It will offer a V-Log curve emulating the natural grey-scale rendition of the VariCam 35. The camcorder will be available in Fall 2015 with a suggested list price under $5000.
The company is previewing the AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera for remote studio, weather and traffic reporting, image magnification and sports implementations. The UB300 is equipped with a one-inch MOS sensor that outputs a UHD signal up to 3840×2160/59.94p, with the ability to simultaneously output HD (up to 1080/59.94p).
Also shown for the first time is the AK-UC3000 4K-ready studio system, targeted at studios and productions requiring high-end functionality at an affordable price. The UC3000 outputs a UHD signal up to 3840/2160/60p, while also delivering superior picture quality in HD. The camera’s B4 mount accommodates the gamut of existing 2/3-inch lenses to maximize customers’ return on investment in existing lenses, and allows a wider and more economical choice of glass for sports, concerts and similar applications.
At NAB, it was announced that the award winning LUMIX GH4 will have firmware update (Ver.2.2) available later this month, enabling recording anamorphic video content. Unlike complex digital post processing needed to achieve the classic Hollywood look, many effects that have became so popular with anamorphic film capture can now be achieved optically in the LUMIX GH4.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 08:31 AM
Well, carp.

"target" 12 stops? 13x zoom? What about my Voigtlanders?

Unless that "13x zoom" is a constant f1.4, looks like I'm finally moving on from Pan-handling.

andykwilkinson
04-13-2015, 08:31 AM
DVX200 is going to be priced "lower than $5000".

mcgeedigital
04-13-2015, 08:32 AM
Meh.

Darren Levine
04-13-2015, 08:34 AM
Is there a photo I'm not seeing on mobile?

andykwilkinson
04-13-2015, 08:35 AM
No photo yet (at least on that and another news link I've seen so far).

refocusedmedia
04-13-2015, 08:36 AM
Also announced new GH4 firmware V2.2 which enables anamorphic video recording.

Dafilman21
04-13-2015, 08:37 AM
It depends on the street price but this could be okay for events

mcbob
04-13-2015, 08:44 AM
So in other words, no real AF-100 successor. Blah.

kabtv
04-13-2015, 08:45 AM
''At a press conference today at the NAB convention, Panasonic announced a range of new 4K production products, including the AG-DVX200 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder; AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera, and the AK-UC3000 4K-ready studio system''

mik303
04-13-2015, 08:49 AM
If this is a handheld camcorder that shoots a broadcast level 4k codec with VFR, Timecode, SDI, HDMI outs, and is going to be better in low-light situations than the hc-x1000, I think this camera is going to be pretty nice! I'll take two.


I didn't see this posted yet:

Press release for AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder
At a press conference today at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) convention, Panasonic announced a range of new 4K production products, including the AG-DVX200 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder; AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera, and the AK-UC3000 4K-ready studio system.

Full Release

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150413005392/en/Panasonic-Announces-4K-Large-Sensor-Handheld-4K

Ian Stark
04-13-2015, 08:54 AM
And with that, I pull the trigger and finally get the GH4. I was holding out for a true replacement to the AF100 but I can't hang on any longer.

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 08:56 AM
Will be interesting to see if they put all that pro level connectivity on it, mik303. I would be surprised if it has time-code jacks. But..not sure how they are delivering a "revolutionary" product in current arena....despite this site's name! We'll see.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 09:02 AM
I guess with a lack of details, I'm just hoping this "13x zoom" is either removeable MFT mount, or a Leica-branded constant ~f1.4 (or even smooth ramping to f2.8 at the long end)... if the lens is good enough, it might be nice to not have to swap during documentary... but I don't suspect it'll be either.

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 09:08 AM
"DVX200" doesn't fit their naming convention at all.

Color me deeply skeptical.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:11 AM
If it has AVC-LongG and the PX270's utility, I'm buying it. It will, in one fell swoop, more or less replace my HMC150, AF100, and GH4 for most things. I'll keep the GH4 for a b-cam and certain other projects.

I mean, it has V-log and is meant to be a companion to the Varicam line. I don't think it's going to be crap. And I don't have to constantly worry about trying to swap lenses for run-and-gun stuff (the bulk of my work). For wedding and event videographers, this could be a dream (if the rest of the specs don't suck). I really want to see the specs on this thing.

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 09:18 AM
Skeptical? Meaning???

jjneff
04-13-2015, 09:19 AM
Looks like a great option to replace my HMC150!

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 09:20 AM
Any idea of base ISO, or recording media?

Roberto Suarez
04-13-2015, 09:20 AM
I think Panasonic faces the "Indiana Jones" dilemma: yesterday they were amazing, but today everyone is doing the same thing

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 09:22 AM
or bit rate and color depth?

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:22 AM
It has V-log, which makes me think it will have something better than AVCHD. Even if it only has AVC-LongG, if it has specs comparable to the PX270, and the zoom is longer than the combo of the 12-35x and 35-100x, I'm sold. It will replace my HMC150, AF100, and GH4. I'll keep the GH4 for a B-cam and certain other projects. For wedding and event folks, (or folks like me that do a lot of run and gun type stuff) this could be a dream camera... contingent of the overall specs not sucking.

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 09:24 AM
I think Panasonic faces the "Indiana Jones" dilemma: yesterday they were amazing, but today everyone is doing the same thing

Assuming the best about IQ, Pannie has identified a hole in the market. Canon has not upgraded the XF300/305 and there is a need for a all in one with compatibility with higher end cameras. We are very interested, and need several for event work.

James Fisher
04-13-2015, 09:26 AM
I completely agree, Mike. I've been really looking forward to the announcement of this camera to become the A Cam for my event/wedding work alongside my GH4 and GH3. Initially I was disappointed by it being fixed lens because I'm used to having that choice, but anything that's being touted as a companion for the Varicam line has got to be a little bit special.

Can't wait to see the specs too.

EidolonFilms
04-13-2015, 09:26 AM
Waiting to see the full specs (especially the lens) before making a judgement. I will say I am really surprised it's a fixed lens though, that's pretty interesting and seems like a first, no? I've gotten so used to shooting with interchangeable lenses, I'm not sure how to even process the decision of whether or not I should go back to a fixed lens camera.

pulpfiction007
04-13-2015, 09:27 AM
So no pictures or detailed specs....how is this a proper announcement?

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 09:27 AM
It has V-log, which makes me think it will have something better than AVCHD. Even if it only has AVC-LongG, if it has specs comparable to the PX270, and the zoom is longer than the combo of the 12-35x and 35-100x, I'm sold. It will replace my HMC150, AF100, and GH4. I'll keep the GH4 for a B-cam and certain other projects. For wedding and event folks, (or folks like me that do a lot of run and gun type stuff) this could be a dream camera... contingent of the overall specs not sucking.

As long as it does not use proprietary or highly specialized recording media as did previous Pannie all-in-ones, it seems like what the market really needs. This forum is not necessary representative, most video cameras are not used as cinema tools.

lyrov
04-13-2015, 09:31 AM
It has V-log, which makes me think it will have something better than AVCHD. Even if it only has AVC-LongG, if it has specs comparable to the PX270, and the zoom is longer than the combo of the 12-35x and 35-100x, I'm sold. It will replace my HMC150, AF100, and GH4. I'll keep the GH4 for a B-cam and certain other projects. For wedding and event folks, (or folks like me that do a lot of run and gun type stuff) this could be a dream camera... contingent of the overall specs not sucking.

The zoom is 13x...so its longer than your combo, but I doubt it will be a constant f2.8 and if thats the case I dont know how usable that camera will be for low light wedding receptions...unless they did some kind of magic with the sensor...

DLD
04-13-2015, 09:32 AM
So no pictures or detailed specs....how is this a proper announcement? I think they're streaming their press conference a little later today.

Tony Hernandez
04-13-2015, 09:34 AM
Somewhere I read that some new lens will be compatible with GH4 and upcoming Panny camera, so What camera if it has to be replaceable lense ?
Or was the PR from this lense provider a joke ?

mcbob
04-13-2015, 09:35 AM
I just don't want another camera that I have to explain to producers. Damn owner/op freelancing.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 09:36 AM
Somewhere I read that some new lens will be compatible with GH4 and upcoming Panny camera, so What camera if it has to be replaceable lense ?
Or was the PR from this lense provider a joke ?

That right there describes the reason for crossed fingers as I await any details on this.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:45 AM
The zoom is 13x...so its longer than your combo, but I doubt it will be a constant f2.8 and if thats the case I dont know how usable that camera will be for low light wedding receptions...unless they did some kind of magic with the sensor...

The PX270 has some very good low light abilities, far better than any other 1/3" in Panny's line. I would think using the tech on another sensor shouldn't be that hard. Plus, if it's similar to other cameras, it will be more like f1.8 at the wide to f3.4 at the far end... I'm okay with that.

I know a lot of folks on this board (me included) have been asking for what is basically a PX270 with a 4/3 sensor and lens mount. Apparently the went ahead and stuck the lens on for us.

DLD
04-13-2015, 09:47 AM
Well, it's definitely not the AF-100 replacement/update.

And, so why this instead of X1000?

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 09:50 AM
Skeptical? Meaning???

Skeptical that it wasn't just a rumor, like so many other things.

But I just talked to Barry, who's there, and he says it's for real (though he had no other details), so . . .

lyrov
04-13-2015, 09:51 AM
Apparently the went ahead and stuck the lens on for us.

haha...well thats the problem...:-)
Anyway I hope it fits your needs!

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 09:51 AM
so..not a single pic yet..even from display in glass cage?

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:57 AM
haha...well thats the problem...:-)
Anyway I hope it fits your needs!

Suddenly I have Beyonce stuck in my head :grin:

Yeah, I totally get that it won't work for a lot of folks... but at the same time, it seams to fill a pretty big niche that, for that most part, hasn't been filled.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:59 AM
In another thread, it was mentioned Barry is there and has seen it, so I would expect pics by the end of the day.

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 10:07 AM
if ya like it then ya better put ND on it..

mik303
04-13-2015, 10:09 AM
Timecode jacks would be nice! But i was just trying to say that ... the feature set, vfr, timecode and connectivity (sdi, hdmi) of the AF100 and the hpx 170 are what I am hoping for. I owned an hvx 200 for a long time, and put 3000 hours on it. I always wished it had hdmi or sdi on it. I hope the new Panasonic DVX 200 builds on that, using those useful items. I'm always afraid that they will water down the new camera so that it won't compete with Varicam. When they didn't put p2 cards in the AF100 that was an enormous disappointment for me. A slap in the face really. I use an hmc 150 for the common eng/corporate quick shoots, and a battle tested Red One for anything that needs a film/DOF look these days. Getting tired of hauling that beast around though. A pair of dvx200's could possibly meet all of my needs. vfr and broadcast quality are a must.

originalauthor
04-13-2015, 10:15 AM
This camera is perfect for alot of people. It fills a BIG hole.

refocusedmedia
04-13-2015, 10:35 AM
First look: https://twitter.com/philarntz/status/587670108811567104

http://i.imgur.com/gOIQs9J.jpg

Finster
04-13-2015, 10:39 AM
Red camera?

photochris
04-13-2015, 10:42 AM
Better image from 43rumors
99941

KINOKS
04-13-2015, 10:43 AM
The PX270 has some very good low light abilities, far better than any other 1/3" in Panny's line. I would think using the tech on another sensor shouldn't be that hard. Plus, if it's similar to other cameras, it will be more like f1.8 at the wide to f3.4 at the far end... I'm okay with that.


1.8 - 3.4 with a 13x zoom on a s35 sensor would make a very big and heavy lens.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 10:44 AM
The press release... http://shop.panasonic.com/latest-news-press-releases/041315-nab-release.html

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Media Contacts:
Pat Lamb 518.727.4933 patlambpr@gmail.com
PanasonicB2B.PR@cohnwolfe.com

Panasonic Unveils AG-DVX200 4K Handheld Camcorder
*With Wide Dynamic Range Capture, Cinematic Image Handling, DVX200 is Equipped for High-Level Production, Ideal Companion Camera to VariCam 35 *

LAS VEGAS, NV (April 13, 2015) – Panasonic has announced the AG-DVX200 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder here at NAB 2015. The DVX200 will offer many top-end features including 4K/60p* recording, a 13X optical zoom and a V-Log L gamma curve (12 stops of latitude, target).

Delivering a shallow depth of field and a wide field of view, the DVX200 is the ideal companion camera to the company’s groundbreaking VariCam 35 4K camera/recorder. With an integrated lens design, the DVX200 will excel in independent film and documentary production, as well as event videography.

The DVX200 will be optimized for 4K/HD production, and shares the esteemed VariCam family characteristics of filmic tonality and colorimetry, with natural, subtle rendering of skin flesh tones, and a V-Log curve emulating the natural grey-scale rendition of the VariCam 35. The camcorder will incorporate a newly-developed 4/3” large-format MOS sensor and offer variable frame rate recording up to 120fps in FHD mode, enhancing the DVX200’s utility in sports and VFX production.

The new handheld 4K camcorder will offer an array of professional features including a newly-designed Leica Dicomar 4K F2.8~F4.5 zoom lens (4K/24p: 29.5 mm ~ 384.9 mm, HD: 28 mm ~ 365.3mm, 35 mm equivalent), time-code in/out, 3G HD-SDI and HDMI 2.0 (4K) video outs, easy focus and zooming, and programmable user buttons.

The DVX200 will record 4K (4096 × 2160) / 24p, UHD (3840 × 2160) / HD (1920 × 1080) 60p / 50p / 30p / 25p / 24p in either MP4 / MOV file formats. There are two SD card** slots, facilitating backup and relay recording. For professionals working worldwide, the camera’s master frame rate is selectable between 59.94Hz (23.98Hz) / 50.00Hz / 24.00Hz.

The DVX200’s three manual operation lens rings—13x zoom (Cam driven), focus and iris—will provide a comfortable manual control similar to an interchangeable lens camera, but without the need for actual lens changes. The zoom ring's solid feel and smooth action allow delicate ultra-slow zooming. In addition, the camera’s multi-step zoom control provides fast response and smooth zoom action, yielding the creative freedom every camera operator desires. The zoom control on the handle enables variable speed zoom, allowing fine zoom control even for low angle shots. The DVX200 also features an enhanced Image Stabilizer,
including a five-axis Hybrid Image Stabilizer and 4x correction-area Image Stabilizer that produces clear images without blurring, and a micro-drive focus unit that improves focus speed, tracking and capture performance, facilitating 4K focusing and shallow focus shooting.

The new Leica Dicomar 4K zoom lens with F2.8 aperture is an optimal choice for 4K video, with the ability to produce elegant imagery and subtle “bokeh” Also, Leica’s exacting quality standards serve to suppress the occurrence of ghosting and flare to a minimum. Since the DVX200 is an integrated-lens camcorder, there is no need to perform the flange back adjustments or shading corrections when changing lenses. Even with a large diameter lens, the DVX200’s weight and balance have been optimized to facilitate agile, mobile 4K acquisition. With superb center-of-gravity balance, the camcorder will be ideal for such flexible shooting applications as mounting on today’s popular stabilized camera rigs.



The AG-DVX200 utilizes a front element lens / filter diameter of 72mm, a very common size. It is expected that many third party lens accessory manufacturers will announce items such as close-up lenses and other desired options.

The AG-DVX200 will feature next-generation ergonomics, with the battery positioned in the rear so as not to interfere during handheld shooting. The DVX200 comes with a rugged woven carbon,fiber-like finish, and the recording section is distinctively styled with crimson shading.

The AG-DVX200 will be available in Fall 2015 with a suggested list price under $5000.

* UHD (3840×2160) resolution, when 60p mode is selected.
** Requires a SD card of UHS speed class 3 (U3) for 4K recording.

For additional Panasonic NAB news, visit us.panasonic.com/nabpress (http://us.panasonic.com/nabpress). For more information about Panasonic professional video products, visit www.panasonic.com/broadcast or contact Panasonic at 877-803-8492 (tel:877-803-8492).

Panasonic Solutions for Business
Panasonic delivers reliable business technology solutions that connect data with decision makers to drive better outcomes—for our customers and our customers’ customers. Panasonic engineers reliable products and solutions that help to create, capture and deliver data of all types, where, when and how it is needed. The complete suite of Panasonic professional solutions for government and commercial enterprises of all sizes addresses unified business communications, mobile computing, security and surveillance, retail point-of-sale, office productivity, visual communications (projectors, displays, digital signage) and HD video production. Panasonic solutions for business are delivered by Panasonic System Communications Company of North America, Division of Panasonic Corporation of North America, the principal North American subsidiary of Panasonic Corporation.

All brand and company/product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of the respective companies. All specifications are subject to change without notice. Information on Panasonic solutions for business can be obtained by calling 877-803-8492 or at us.panasonic.com/business-solutions.

About Panasonic Corporation of North America
Panasonic Corporation of North America provides a broad line of digital and other electronics products and solutions for consumer, business and industrial use. The company is the principal North American subsidiary of Osaka, Japan-based Panasonic Corporation and the hub of Panasonic’s U.S. branding, marketing, sales, service and R&D operations. In Interbrand’s 2014 annual “Best Global Green Brands” report, Panasonic ranked number five overall and the top electronics brand in the report. As part of continuing sustainability efforts, Panasonic Corporation of North America relocated its headquarters to a new facility, adjacent to Newark Penn Station in Newark, NJ. It is the first newly constructed office tower in Newark to earn both LEED Platinum and Gold certifications from the U.S. Green Building Council.

Learn more about Panasonic at panasonic.com/pressroom (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/PressroomHome?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&catGroupId=30531).
.

# # #

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 10:51 AM
So it appears to use the same codecs as the GH4 and X1000. Bummer. It's also f2.8 to f4.5. Also a bummer. But, none of those things are necessarily deal breakers (for me... YMMV).

The lens is roughly the equivalent of 28mm-365mm. Wish it were wider, but fairly long reach.

3G HD-SDI and HDMI 2 out, along with TC in/out.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 10:53 AM
Photos...

99942999439994499945

stoneinapond
04-13-2015, 10:55 AM
So it appears to use the same codecs as the GH4 and X1000. Bummer

Even if some of this is optical then it can't be the same sensor.

"The DVX200 also features an enhanced Image Stabilizer, including a five-axis Hybrid Image Stabilizer and 4x correction-area Image Stabilizer that produces clear images without blurring"

refocusedmedia
04-13-2015, 10:56 AM
More images:

http://i.imgur.com/0EAxE8v.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vyqCNDR.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lHL77Db.jpg

KINOKS
04-13-2015, 10:56 AM
Sounds great, looks interesting. Wonder why they didn't put the GH4s sensor in it...

Edit: bummer on the GH4 codec! Although when shooting 4k with it and down-converting to HD the image is good and greadable.

alohype
04-13-2015, 10:57 AM
And it's carbon fibre!!!! :P

Cortex
04-13-2015, 10:59 AM
First pic here -

http://twitter.com/mattallardACS/status/587673134196662273

very disappointing. The hvx200 crowd has moved on ... This is not what they want. Not what I want anyway. 2.8 aperture .... Not even fixed.

shorty15
04-13-2015, 11:00 AM
This seems like an April Fools joke. Was anyone asking for a DVX100 sequel? How did they mess this up? What happened to the AF200? Major fail from Panasonic. They only way they can salvage this is by announcing an AF200 later in the day. Are they paying any attention whatsoever to these forums? Who is in charge of camera development in Japan? Is anyone buying fixed lens cameras anymore? I don't think I've seen one in the wild in years.

Unfortunately, the only companies that seem to understand our industry anymore are Blackmagic and Sony. Why the hell would anyone other than a rental house buy a C300MKII for $15K when we have the FS7, Ursa and Ursa Mini for less than half the cost. Red and Arri of course do their own thing so their products will always be out of reach but I cannot fathom how the C300MKII can cost more than $10K, let alone $15K. Canon is trying to bridge the gap between Blackmagic and Red but in the process, they don't really appeal to anyone. Sure, I would rent a Mk2 in a heartbeat but I would never think of buying one when the Ursa Mini has the same specs for 1/3 the cost. No wonder they released the camera a few days before the show. It would have seemed like the punchline to a terrible joke after the Blackmagic press conference.

I can't even get mad at Panasonic. It seems like they stopped paying attention years ago.

Darren Levine
04-13-2015, 11:00 AM
wow... if only this were a top gear episode

Finster
04-13-2015, 11:05 AM
Nice photos. Was hoping for AF200.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 11:06 AM
The lens roughly 28mm--365mm... a fixed f2.8 lens like that would be huge and heavy.

And I'm betting it sells a lot... weddings/events/docs/general run and gun. This camera seems very well suited to that. My biggest gripe is that it appears to use the same codecs as the GH4 and X1000. AVC-LongG would have been huge.

Depending on general low light abilities, I'll probably buy it and replace both my HMC150 and AF100 in one swoop.

Darren Levine
04-13-2015, 11:09 AM
honestly i'm very pleased to see a large sensor fixed lens camera. 5 axis stabilizer to boot. a lot of users/times/situations call for super speed/get it done, and i do miss my EX1 for that.

Cortex
04-13-2015, 11:09 AM
First picture here:

http://twitter.com/mattallardACS/status/587673134196662273

Initial thoughts, it's literally a HVX200 with 4k. As a previous HVX200 owner my career has moved on and I am not interested but good option for self shooters, tv docs etc... Not really for the filmmakers they are intended to hit I feel. If you can afford to spend a bit more than a GH4 there are great options from sony, canon and black magic that deserve your attention.

Lens looks like what I'd expect from a eng fixed lens hvx series. Not for cinema style and the dynamic range of 12 stops puts it behind the competition again. Disappointing for me.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 11:13 AM
I can see the point of this camera... unfortunately it isn't the point where I am.

Separate the lens. Pro internal codecs. Modular handle. Did that have to be difficult?

shorty15
04-13-2015, 11:13 AM
So is the Panasonic Press conference over? Did they ever mention another camera? There were people saying that an AF200 was confirmed. The Veydra guys said they were making anamorphic lenses for a new Panasonic MFT cam? Was that BS? Surely he wasn't talking about this turkey.

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 11:14 AM
honestly i'm very pleased to see a large sensor fixed lens camera. 5 axis stabilizer to boot. a lot of users/times/situations call for super speed/get it done, and i do miss my EX1 for that.

+1. Sometimes you just have grab a shot in an unpredictably changing environment where you have no time to set up, and no control over anything, even position

any idea of sensor (same as gh4?) or codec specifics such as bit rate and color depth?

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 11:14 AM
Was anyone asking for a DVX100 sequel?

Yes, actually. This camera seems perfectly suited towards the Wedding/Event/Documentary/general run and gun crowd. To put it comparison, my GH4 plus 12-35 and 35-100 X lenses cost more than this. And I need to swap lenses. And I don't have XLR's, built in ND's, 3G HD-SDI, etc.

Not thrilled that it appears to use the GH4 codecs, that the lens is f4.5 at the long end, and roughly the equivalent of 28mm at the wide end. But it will still be a better camera for *my* uses than my AF100 and HMC150.

It's going to probably sell very well.

Rylan Zolinski
04-13-2015, 11:15 AM
Holy hell is this camera ugly.

Rylan Zolinski
04-13-2015, 11:19 AM
DVX200 is going to be priced "lower than $5000".

$4995

dcloud
04-13-2015, 11:20 AM
All they gad to do was chop the damn lens boom. Easy. Avc long g

mcbob
04-13-2015, 11:23 AM
Yeah. Shame I mostly do interviews and commercial, not weddings and events. If I can't use my Voigtlanders with it, I'm not interested in an m43 camera.

Chop the lens off and give it pro internal codecs, and then we'll talk after my seemingly-inevitable-FS7 is obsolete.

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 11:27 AM
I don't buy cameras anymore. I hire DPs, and they bring theirs along with; I don't care what they use as long as they give me what I want. But if I were going to buy something for my personal purposes? Heck yeah. Looks pretty cool, and if it has the Panasonic mojo, then I'm all for it.

Cortex
04-13-2015, 11:30 AM
The lens roughly 28mm--365mm... a fixed f2.8 lens like that would be huge and heavy.

And I'm betting it sells a lot... weddings/events/docs/general run and gun. This camera seems very well suited to that. My biggest gripe is that it appears to use the same codecs as the GH4 and X1000. AVC-LongG would have been huge.

.

i disagree about weddings and events, regardless of the resolution people are using and like the HD DSLR 'look' this camera isn't a step forward for that crowd. Docs, yes I think it's a good camera for TV and mainly producers that occasionally have to shoot themselves.

joe 1008
04-13-2015, 11:33 AM
honestly i'm very pleased to see a large sensor fixed lens camera. 5 axis stabilizer to boot. a lot of users/times/situations call for super speed/get it done, and i do miss my EX1 for that.


+1. Sometimes you just have grab a shot in an unpredictably changing environment where you have no time to set up, and no control over anything, even position

any idea of sensor size or codec specifics such as bit rate and color depth?

what can I add? I feel an enthusiastic itch for this camera. Not that it's perfect, but it seems to be a GREAT allround talent.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 11:34 AM
How can you not get a "DSLR look" from an m4/3 fixed lens camera any less than a GH4 or AF100?

lyrov
04-13-2015, 11:36 AM
I don't buy cameras anymore. I hire DPs, and they bring theirs along with, and I don't care what they use as long as they give me what I want.

Ok...would you hire me if I buy one...:-)

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 11:38 AM
Not that it's perfect, but it seems to be a GREAT allround talent.

Jack of all trades, master of none. Still annoyed there isn't at least AVC-LongG, but for under $5k, I can live with it... as long as it has the PX270's low light abilities. If I absolutely have to have 10bit 4:2:2, I can get an Atomos Ninja Star.

jamesjjs
04-13-2015, 11:41 AM
too bad not constant f2.8.... but the rest of it doesn't sound too shabby

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2015/04/13/nab-2015-news-panasonic-pull-a-blinder-4k-ag-dvx-200/

pulpfiction007
04-13-2015, 11:42 AM
That's the one part I think they missed the mark...the 4:2:0 GH codec. I enjoy the rest of the concept. Large sensor, all in one solution.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 11:46 AM
Depends on the look you want. I commonly use Voigtlanders and Speedboosted Leica R and Sigma zoom lenses. I will not get that look from this camera.

I'm sure it will fit a lot of peoples' needs. It would have fit my needs ~3 years ago perfectly. My needs now are for an interchangeable lens large sensor camera shooting an internal broadcast codec with SDI output. This only hits half of those requirements.

Plenty of folks will do excellent work with this camera, but I don't believe I'll be amongst them.

Ram S.O.S
04-13-2015, 11:47 AM
Interesting I might check it out for my ENG work. I wish it had a longer zoom like my AC160.

Cortex
04-13-2015, 11:48 AM
FF DSLRs have been extremely popular in my part of the world for event highlights/weddings etc.. so it's just my view this camera does not offer enough to be seen as a step forward. Personally I went from Hvx200 > AF100 > D750 & c100. This doesn't entice me at all. Am sure I am not the only one.

Yes you can mimic the DSLR look but with my current set of lenses this fixed lens is a step backwards regardless of the codec, resolution or frame rates.

Sure I can see if someone was older and used more fixed lens ENG style this camera looks good on paper but the indie film-makers needs have changed so much since the HVX-200 Panasonic didn't need to go this route.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 11:51 AM
Holy hell is this camera ugly.
In its defense, so am I... but I like to think I work OK. ;)

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 11:52 AM
That's the one part I think they missed the mark...the 4:2:0 GH codec. I enjoy the rest of the concept. Large sensor, all in one solution.

Nowhere do they announce the codec or codec specifics. They even indicate that the codec is a moving target by stating that 12 tops DR is a target. I think that you can count on GH4 codec as a minimum but that they have dreams of more, or the simply would have announced it.

EidolonFilms
04-13-2015, 11:53 AM
Eesh, not sure i understand this camera at all. The lens is no where near wide enough and only 2.8 at it's fastest? How is that helpful to weeding/event videographers, let alone doc makers that need fast lenses and really wide lenses? This may be a total pipe dream but maybe they'll release the "cinema" version of this camera one day - same thing just without the lens.

TheDingo
04-13-2015, 11:53 AM
Does this camera have any competition ?

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 11:55 AM
Does this camera have any competition ?

Not unless Canon upgrades the XF300 before the DVX200 delivers in the fall.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 12:02 PM
PXW-X200... if my calcs are near, it'd yield only about a stop less DOF because of its faster fixed lens, would have longer reach, and an internal broadcast codec.

EDIT: ...i'm likely wrong on that. That camera doesn't even shoot 4K, seems like the Sony 4K camcorders are all 1/2.3" or 1". I could refine the math, but suffice it to say I'm not really in the fixed-zoom-camcorder market to make that research personally worthwhile.

Dave Rochelle
04-13-2015, 12:04 PM
I'm with mcbob on a lot of his points. I have a fixed lens camera (AC130) with 22x zoom that's f1.9 wide open for news-style run & gun and event coverage, but have completely bought into interchangeable lens format for everything else I shoot (commercials, docs, corporate - which is 80% of my work).

Was really hoping I'd be able to continue to grow with the m43 format because I love the size/weight/performance combo the format represents... and of course have a nice collection of m43 glass now. However, I will most likely look towards something like the C100/300, FS7 or maybe the intriguing Blackmagic URSA Mini now.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 12:10 PM
I just got done cutting several website videos for a friend who is a wedding planner. Several wedding videographers... most were excellent... gave her footage to use. I didn't see anything they shot that couldn't have been shot on this camera (especially if it has the low light abilities of the PX270).

As for folks like McBob, I get that... if you've got a great set of lenses, this camera is worthless to you. But for those with a small set of zooms, this could be a great jack of all trades camera.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 12:14 PM
Nowhere do they announce the codec or codec specifics. They even indicate that the codec is a moving target by stating that 12 tops DR is a target. I think that you can count on GH4 codec as a minimum but that they have dreams of more, or the simply would have announced it.

Anything greater than the gH4 codec, and they would have incorporated it in the press release. I mean, saying it included AVC-Ultra (which AVC-LongG is a part of) would be a huge selling point.

Not saying they can't add it before it's released, but something tells me it isn't in the works.

zijital
04-13-2015, 12:15 PM
Does this camera have any competition ?

I'd think it is in the same class with the Sony PXW-Z100 & FDR-AX1

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1004182&gclid=CJ6L9d7-88QCFQiqaQod0zIAIw&Q=&is=REG&A=details

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1002485&gclid=CI22vN7-88QCFZSCaQodqqQA3g&Q=&is=REG&A=details

harddrive
04-13-2015, 12:20 PM
Jack of all trades, master of none.
I think that sums it up well. After the initial blog by Kunihiko Miyagi, and his comments: "......we’ve decided to go for a new breakthrough, and try to create another disruption in the industry and hit like the DVX100" it's hardly surprising the general feeling seems to be one of disappointment.

The big question might be just who it's aimed at? If you're in the general event etc type market (and currently using such as EX1, HVX270) the form factor and built in lens etc suits, but is 4K really worth it here? I've heard people say even HD seems overkill for such as weddings - I don't agree with that, but is anyone going to deliver such on 4K? If all else was equal, maybe, but 4K does have it's downsides.

Low budget cinema? Here 4K comes more into it's own, and that's who large format sensors got most excitement from initially for shallow DOF reasons - but that's coupled to the use of fairly wide aperture lenses to be worthwhile, and f2.8 is only equivalent to about f4 on s35 for DOF. It's not that much different to f1.8 on 2/3"! That's the whole point of interchangeable lenses for this market - you need a prime or short zoom to get the wide apertures.

B camera for a Varicam? It looks like the sensor used is of the GH "optimised for stills" type, and photosite size means it's highly unlikely to even come close to Varicam performance for DR etc. And for such wouldn't you at least want the same codec? (As the HPX270 shares codec with 2/3" cameras.)

It may be good for some, nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but to me it just looks too much like the jack of all trades designed by committee. That's not to say it's bad - but "breakthrough" and " cause disruption in the industry"? That's nonsense.

pulpfiction007
04-13-2015, 12:20 PM
I'd think it is in the same class with the Sony PXW-Z100 & FDR-AX1

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1004182&gclid=CJ6L9d7-88QCFQiqaQod0zIAIw&Q=&is=REG&A=details

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1002485&gclid=CI22vN7-88QCFZSCaQodqqQA3g&Q=&is=REG&A=details


Those cameras aren't large sensor cameras though

TomLenham
04-13-2015, 12:20 PM
Was anyone asking for a DVX100 sequel?
Literally thousands of people - just because you're not one of them, don't write this camera off as useless. I think this is an inspired move by Panasonic and can see it in my kit bag very soon. No lens changes means no extra weight, no dust in the sensor (I do a lot of travel work), a controllable zoom, a fast and easy setup - straight out of the bag and hit record. Perfect for me and half the broadcast documentary / news crews out there. If I want super shallow DoF shots I'll stick a DSLR in the bag with a prime and pull it out for set-ups and cutaways - but I can bet I'll only use it 10% of the time. Panny are going to earn a fortune with this little gem and rightly so. Yes the lens isn't as fast as one would hope, and I'm not sure that DR is up there with better sensors, but in every other respect this is a massive home run. About a year ago I remember commenting on this forum "give me a GH4 in PX270 body and I'll buy it." Time to put my money where my mouth is and reach for my wallet. Well done Panasonic!

pulpfiction007
04-13-2015, 12:22 PM
Literally thousands of people - just because you're not one of them, don't write this camera off as useless. I think this is an inspired move by Panasonic and can see it in my kit bag very soon. No lens changes means no extra weight, no dust in the sensor (I do a lot of travel work), a controllable zoom, a fast and easy setup - straight out of the bag and hit record. Perfect for me and half the broadcast documentary / news crews out there. If I want super shallow DoF shots I'll stick a DSLR in the bag with a prime and pull it out for set-ups and cutaways - but I can bet I'll only use it 10% of the time. Panny are going to earn a fortune with this little gem and rightly so. Yes the lens isn't as fast as one would hope, and I'm not sure that DR is up there with better sensors, but in every other respect this is a massive home run. About a year ago I remember commenting on this forum "give me a GH4 in PX270 body and I'll buy it." Time to put my money where my mouth is and reach for my wallet. Well done Panasonic!

Not really a PX270 if they don't include the codecs.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 12:26 PM
Those cameras aren't large sensor cameras though

Equivalent DOF from 1/2.3" sensor w/ f1.6 lens = ~f8.3
Equivalent DOF from 4/3 sensor with 2.3x crop (derived from stated equivalent focal length) w/ f2.8 lens = ~f6.4

That's only a bit over a half stop difference (or something like that...)

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 12:27 PM
Not really a PX270 if they don't include the codecs.

He was asking for the PX270 body, not the codecs.

roxics
04-13-2015, 12:31 PM
After the USRA Mini announcement today it's hard to get excited about a camera like this. Which is sad considering it's the namesake of this site. But this is an out-of-the-box camera. Just add recording media. So it would probably still work out to be cheaper than a kitted out 4K URSA once you add the EVF, battery, lens and currently expensive CFast cards. But you're also losing global shutter, raw/ProRes options and interchangable lenses with the DVX200. Different strokes for different folks.

What will really matter here is, how good the image is overall and how good it is in low light.

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 12:31 PM
Equivalent DOF from 1/2.3" sensor w/ f1.6 lens = ~f8.3
Equivalent DOF from 4/3 sensor with 2.3x crop (derived from stated equivalent focal length) w/ f2.8 lens = ~f6.4

That's only a bit over a half stop difference (or something like that...)

If I am doing run and gun I do not want shallow depth of field. I know that is the be all and end all to a lot of people but it is an effect that has its place, just as deep DOF does. Sometimes getting the shot is more important than shallow DOF. There are other ways to focus the eye. They may take more skill but they work.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 12:31 PM
Not really a PX270 if they don't include the codecs.

No, but shooting 4k and downresing can make up for a little bit of that. However, if it has the low light sensor tech of the PX270 (which, on an m4/3 camera means even better low light abilities than the PX270's 1/3 sensor), and gives me the option to record out to a 10:2:2 recorder, I'm fine with that if it's under $5k, and I don't need to worry about swapping lenses anymore. The key is going to be how it does in low light...

Bassman2003
04-13-2015, 12:38 PM
Waiting to hear more about it but the lack of P2 is my only let down for this camera. Why not use the AVC-Ultra codecs with the P2 cards to reward the people who have committed to Panasonic as customers? Now you have to buy and carry different SD cards (unless it will read micro P2 cards) and possibly lose the 10bit 4:2:2 color info. I am happy about the rest though. Basically this is not a "cinema" camera, but there are plenty of cinema cameras out there...

joe 1008
04-13-2015, 12:38 PM
The quality of this camera comes down to its low light capabilities. Photodiode size and circuits should be improved compared to a GH4 and even the used sensor size in 4k should be bigger. The lens should have a constant aperture of f3.5 over a long zoom range - expect DOF and low light being at least as good if not better at that aperture compared to a GH4 with a f2.8 zoom. This camera is not really cinematic and is not meant to be - but it could be very useful in many aspects.

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 12:42 PM
"no dust in the sensor (I do a lot of travel work)"

I have recently seen an increase number of people having sensor contamination issues..a valid point for harsh(er) conditions.
But revolutionary? Hmmm. And apparently the revolution will be wearing a mix of bad phone skins ;)

mcbob
04-13-2015, 12:46 PM
If I am doing run and gun I do not want shallow depth of field. I know that is the be all and end all to a lot of people but it is an effect that has its place, just as deep DOF does. Sometimes getting the shot is more important than shallow DOF. There are other ways to focus the eye. They may take more skill but they work.

Sure. I could always put a 14–140 on my AF and get deep focus. I'll never be able to put a f2 or faster lens on this for shallow focus. I like M43 as a happy medium between small sensor land and full frame land, and that flexibility is hampered by fixed lenses.

pulpfiction007
04-13-2015, 12:51 PM
He was asking for the PX270 body, not the codecs.

Well, sorry for the confusion on that...but the body looks as much like an AC130/160 as it does a PX270. So I always figured when people wanted the PX270 and a GH4 mix, it meant they wanted the great formats of the PX270 as well.

joe 1008
04-13-2015, 12:54 PM
Sure. I could always put a 14–140 on my AF and get deep focus. I'll never be able to put a f2 or faster lens on this for shallow focus. I like M43 as a happy medium between small sensor land and full frame land, and that flexibility is hampered by fixed lenses.

If you have a lens collection and prefer to shoot interchangeable this camera obviously is not meant for you. You have about a dozen interesting options out there. The interestin of this camera is, that it's a potent all in one solution.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 12:55 PM
After the USRA Mini announcement today it's hard to get excited about a camera like this.

The URSA mini is going after a different market. Me, personally, the reason I've been complaining about the lack of AVC-LongG in this and another thread is that it hits a great sweet spot... 10bit 4:2:2 in a small file size. The URSA Mini looks like a great camera for certain environments. But an awful lot of people aren't in those environments. I'm shooting 100+ medical provider bio videos over a two week period in June for a hospital system. Dealing with anything over 50mb/s is going to be a huge pain in the rear because of the file size and shear volume of footage. The DVX200 would be great for that scenario.

This is, basically, a mash up of the X1000 and the PX270 with an improved m4/3 sensor. That's huge for some folks. It won't be for everyone. But not everyone needs the URSA's raw capabilities, or removable lenses. Personally, I love the m4/3 sensor size, but always juggling 2-3 lenses while on the go is a huge pain in my rear. I've missed shots because I couldn't swap lenses during run-and-gun stuff fast enough

This is going to be a jack of all trades camera. There is a market need for that type of camera. But jack of all trades means master of none. There are trade offs for everything (which is why I won't be getting rid of the GH4 anytime soon... itself a series of trade offs).

zeke
04-13-2015, 12:55 PM
8bit 4:2:0, should be closer to 3k usd than 5K. The new Canon XC10 has 8bit 4:2:2 option for under 2500.00 USD

Kholi
04-13-2015, 12:56 PM
Aside from the GH4 sensor (if that's what it is), I think the camera looks pretty nice.

William_Robinette
04-13-2015, 12:59 PM
Aside from the GH4 sensor (if that's what it is), I think the camera looks pretty nice.

Looks great.

roxics
04-13-2015, 01:08 PM
The URSA mini is going after a different market.

I know. The rest of my post pointed that out but you only quoted the first line. Otherwise yeah I agree with you. There are plenty of scenarios where the DVX200 would be the better choice.

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 01:08 PM
8bit 4:2:0, should be closer to 3k usd than 5K.

Things always street significantly less than MSRP.

ugafan
04-13-2015, 01:09 PM
"The company is previewing the AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera for remote studio, weather and traffic reporting, image magnification and sports implementations."

Hear that folks, if you are into weather and traffic reporting, THIS IS THE CAMERA YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!

den59
04-13-2015, 01:24 PM
i don't understand why they went with a fixed lens. Could't they develop something like 12-50/2.8 and rather opt for a m43 mount so that customers could use either video-friendly lens or some speedy Voigtlanders or Veydra's?
The same lens could have been sold to video-oriented gh4 owners.

It seems Panasonic doesn't see much future in developing cine-lenses and/or entry level video cameras in m43 mount, pity...

BrianMurphy
04-13-2015, 01:26 PM
Well it seems like a nice handy-cam. I owned a DVX100 and it was great in its time. I owned an HMC150 Ditto. But I know for sure I would have a hard time selling this to my clients. I know that I could never shoot for any USA networks with it and not the BBC. 4.2.0 and 8 bit is a no go . I was hoping that Panasonic would come to NAB with something really new. Maybe next year. And am I alone in wondering about an April release of a camera that is suggested to be available in the Fall of 2015 (September 23 for me).

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 01:31 PM
"The company is previewing the AK-UB300 4K multi-purpose camera for remote studio, weather and traffic reporting, image magnification and sports implementations."

Hear that folks, if you are into weather and traffic reporting, THIS IS THE CAMERA YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR!

It's not meant to be shooter's camera. It's a remote camera.

http://cms.tvtechnology.com/portals/4/PanasonicAK-UB300.jpg

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 01:34 PM
Everyone assumes the DVX200 is 4:2:0 like the GH4, but I have not seen any specification. Similarly, everyone assumes this is the GH4 sensor but I have not seen any specification. There are other unused MTF sensors already announced.

zeke
04-13-2015, 01:34 PM
Aside from the GH4 sensor (if that's what it is), I think the camera looks pretty nice.

I'ts supposed to be a newer version of the 4/3 sensor.

zeke
04-13-2015, 01:39 PM
Everyone assumes the DVX200 is 4:2:0 like the GH4, but I have not seen any specification. Similarly, everyone assumes this is the GH4 sensor but I have not seen any specification. There are other unused MTF sensors already announced.

You would need either cfast or p2 card to handle 4K bitrates higher than 100mb, so even if we are wrong, it's reasonable to assume 8bit 4:2:0 on board. 3G SDI is only for HD resolution?

TFilipiak
04-13-2015, 01:40 PM
Can't Panasonic just take a saw to it and lop that lens off? That way we can use our own, mo' better lenses instead...

David W. Jones
04-13-2015, 01:41 PM
Meh.

My words exactly!

Sttratos
04-13-2015, 01:42 PM
The big question might be just who it's aimed at? If you're in the general event etc type market (and currently using such as EX1, HVX270) the form factor and built in lens etc suits, but is 4K really worth it here? I've heard people say even HD seems overkill for such as weddings - I don't agree with that, but is anyone going to deliver such on 4K?

Who is delivering 4K at all? A very, very selective few. Hollywood movies are still finished 99% in 2K. So wedding guys would use 4K like everybody else is, to reframe and deliver HD. So I don't see your point. I think this camera for sure will serve a big part of the market. Not everybody is making indie movies. Some work with events, broadcast or just need an all in one solution.

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 01:46 PM
You would need either cfast or p2 card to handle 4K bitrates higher than 100mb, so even if we are wrong, it's reasonable to assume 8bit 4:2:0 on board. 3G SDI is only for HD resolution?

The fastest UHS III SDHC cards are rated at 280mbs. What they actually deliver I do not know. Canon sells 4k 4:2: cameras with 205mbs rate. Have seen one card advertised as having much more than that speed but I have not seen it in the hands of anyone. Also, HS could be a downsized 4:2:2 while 4K is not.

hgf4
04-13-2015, 01:53 PM
Nice camera but not all that exciting for me. I'll be surprised if it does as well as people are expecting it to.

True North
04-13-2015, 01:55 PM
This is one of the key things I was looking for out of NAB, a sub $5K, large sensor (low light performance), 4K or UHD 60P capable Camcorder. There is currently a complete lack of 4K camcorders with acceptable low light performance under $5000. So many of the existing 4K camcorder options are not useable for low light indoor use.

There are plenty of Camera options out there for people who want cameras with replaceable lenses. Provided it tests out decently, I will likely be buying this camera. I understand it doesn't fulfill the need of those looking for a AF101 replacement but I think this camera will help a lot of people.

I am hopeful that it is not the same sensor as the GH4 - you don't need that many pixels for video and fewer photosites will allow for larger photoside and thus better low light performance, theoretically speaking of course. If its the same sensor as the GH4 then it's low light performance won't be good enough for me personally especially with a lens that does down to f/4.5. The fact that you can get a reasonably decent shallow depth of field out of this camcorder is a huge bonus as I have never owned a camcorder that could acheive that look.

joe 1008
04-13-2015, 01:59 PM
It can't be the GH4 sensor. The crop from HD to 4K is minor.

zeke
04-13-2015, 02:04 PM
It can't be the GH4 sensor. The crop from HD to 4K is minor.

Their press release indicates it's a newly developed MFT sensor.

Jarek Zabczynski
04-13-2015, 02:06 PM
This camera makes no sense…no P2, no AVC-Intra...

GaryinCalifornia
04-13-2015, 02:09 PM
I still have my DVX100b... lol to bad I couldn't send it in for an upgrade...

lyrov
04-13-2015, 02:10 PM
Following that thread from the start I have the feeling that the opinions about that camera are about 50-50, with the negative ones focusing mostly on the fixed lens. Personally Im done with fixed lens cameras a long time ago...but I guess there will always be a market for them, even if its getting smaller and smaller. Im just wondering wouldnt be better for Panasonic to release the exact same camera but without a fixed lens? Same thing Im wondering about Canons XC10...but Canon has an excuse in my opinon...to protect their C line...what about Panasonic?

refocusedmedia
04-13-2015, 02:13 PM
http://vimeo.com/124866768
http://vimeo.com/124866768


http://vimeo.com/124865633
http://vimeo.com/124865633

john deaver
04-13-2015, 02:23 PM
I think this is going to be a great companion the the gh4.

if i need super shallow DOF or i want to use some specific lens for some specific look then i have two Gh4's for that. if i want to run and gun, and I'm in a situation were that's not important or posable then this will be awesome.

and a lot of folks talking about how you won't be able to get the shallow dof at all with that lens but out on the end of that zoom in the 100mm range the DOF won't be that much different than with a gh4 with the pan 35-100 at f 2.8

9997899979

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 02:38 PM
so..the way that lcd comes out, think it can be pulled toward side of cam for side viewing? and..looks like it has a timecode jack of some sort..surprising.

Spartacus
04-13-2015, 02:42 PM
Hot freaking cakes.
That's how it's gonna sell like.
All the HVX/EX1 users out there (and there are MANY) will finally be able to offer a larger sensor look and get better low light.
If I just could dig up a post from years ago, where I was expressing my incomprehension of why Pana didn't put a 2/3" sensor in a HVX body,
and someone (Barry?) explained it wasn't doable, because the fixed lens would need to be way to big... ;)

I went from HVX to the C100 as my personal camera and one thing no one-man-crew shoot needs, is changing lenses and non par focal manual photo zooms.
While I love that the C's are small and can be stripped down for traveling or steady/gimbal use, the DVX200's form factor is proven and trusted.
Better codec? Just add a Atomos Star or the new BMD 5", but let's see what codec options will be offered upon release.
Crazy times.

harddrive
04-13-2015, 02:48 PM
Who is delivering 4K at all? A very, very selective few. Hollywood movies are still finished 99% in 2K.
At the high end of the market there's a lot of request for 4K - even if the present day delivery is HD. For high end work the requirement is increasingly to have a 4K master if the product is seen to have any future worth at all. I don't know what the current Hollywood figures are, but I's suspect it's probably more than 99% and increasing all the time.

Yes, for wedding use 4K allows reframing afterwards. But it comes at a price. Heavier workflow, necessity to transcode, and very likely a lower sensitivity than if the chipset was HD. All I'm saying is that cameras like the EX1, HPX270 may still give a better end result.

I was arguing heavily a year or so back in favour of 4K in principle when the overwhelming mood seemed to be "what's the point"? But I'll be the first to say not to get carried away with 4k for everything.

Bassman2003
04-13-2015, 02:50 PM
Makes sense after watching the Cinema 5D video (thanks for posting!) about the omission of AVC-Ultra. Heat. The PX270 draws 19.5 watts for 1080p. I can imagine as he stated that 4k would push this over the top. Hopefully there will be 1080p 4:2:2 10 bit options to choose from.

Looking forward to seeing images and to see how well the servo motors work. Would be interested to see if this camera can be a direct replacement or shoot along side the PX270 and color match and have the same smooth zoom control.

zeke
04-13-2015, 02:52 PM
Hot freaking cakes.
That's how it's gonna sell like.
All the HVX/EX1 users out there (and there are MANY) will finally be able to offer a larger sensor look and get better low light.
If I just could dig up a post from years ago, where I was expressing my incomprehension of why Pana didn't put a 2/3" sensor in a HVX body,
and someone (Barry?) explained it wasn't doable, because the fixed lens would need to be way to big... ;)

I went from HVX to the C100 as my personal camera and one thing no one-man-crew shoot needs, is changing lenses and non par focal manual photo zooms.
While I love that the C's are small and can be stripped down for traveling or steady/gimbal use, the DVX200's form factor is proven and trusted.
Better codec? Just add a Atomos Star or the new BMD 5", but let's see what codec options will be offered upon release.
Crazy times.

Since it will have Vlog, I asssume that will give it better dynamic range in post? If they could do 10bit 4:2:2 at 1080p like the X70, it will sell like hot cakes.

alex1
04-13-2015, 02:54 PM
I wonder if Canon will come out with an XL3. Then we can have the DVX vs XL debates again...

mcbob
04-13-2015, 03:11 PM
Canon already has its analog in the XC10... but with slower lens, lighter weight, and better codec

Gweilo66
04-13-2015, 03:15 PM
So by resurrecting the "DVX", are they leaving room for HVX bigger brother? Just seems like they are being a bit weird with the labeling.

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 03:22 PM
Threads merged.

David Jimerson
04-13-2015, 04:01 PM
So by resurrecting the "DVX", are they leaving room for HVX bigger brother? Just seems like they are being a bit weird with the labeling.

It's why I didn't actually believe it at first. D = standard def, V = tape, and X = 24p. Only one of those things applies.

But they may be trying to invoke the massive goodwill associated with the DVX100. And it makes the name "DVX" relevant again. :)

philiplipetz
04-13-2015, 05:21 PM
I don't think I saw this here. The sensor is a native 4k resolution, raising the possibility of enhanced DR and greater base ISO when compared to the GH4.

filmguy123
04-13-2015, 05:22 PM
Ugh.

This is a fine camera for what it is, but it is not a Pro GH4 or an Af100 successor... once again...

Anyone who says "you don't need..", you are wrong. I know exactly what I need. I need a GH4 in an AF100 body with better lowligth and DR. 12 stops of DR isn't that good, and what happen to the rumored ISO improvents. And what the frick is so hard about just making an AF100.

if panny just made this with M43 and NDs the world would be good:

http://nofilmschool.com/2015/04/blackmagic-announces-lighter-ursa-mini-46k-sensor-15-stops-dynamic-range

Instead they become more irrelevant with each passing year. I swear they are just trying to shoot themselves in the foot, or assume what ENG style shooters want when we talk about an AF200. I get the reasoning here, I really do. "ENG style shooters have focus problems and don't need faster than f/2.8 anyway", don't really need wider, etc. Bull. These are not going to sell like hot cakes. I am an ENG shooter and I WANT the hassle of changing lenses. I think most people who shoot cimeatically and artisitically have long since moved on from fixed lens cameras for a lot of very good reason. I have a lens belt for ENG. I'm fast. I shoot live events with manual focus at f/0.95 sometimes. And I don't want to bounce between a GH4 and a DVX200. No, no, no. I and many others told you what we wanted multiple times. An AF200.

I would be thrilled about a DVX200 if they also released an AF200. But this is just not good enough and I'm sick of waiting on Panny.

Sony FS7 it is.

Most disappointing Panny announcement ever, after all that build up. They literally have nothing even close to a midrange pro offering to compete with anything from Sony, Canon, or Blackmagic. Just pathetic.

Darren Levine
04-13-2015, 05:26 PM
Ugh.

This is a fine camera for what it is, but it is not a Pro GH4 or an Af100 successor... once again...

Anyone who says "you don't need..", you are wrong. I know exactly what I need. I need a GH4 in an AF100 body with better lowligth and DR. 12 stops of DR isn't that good, and what happen to the rumored ISO improvents. And what the frick is so hard about just making an AF100.

These are not going to sell like hot cakes. I am an ENG shooter and I want the hassle of changing lenses. I think most people who shoot cimeatically and artisitically have long since moved on from fixed lens cameras. I have a lens belt for ENG. I'm fast. I shoot live events with manual focus at f/0.95 sometimes.

I get the reasoning here. and I would be thrilled about a DVX200 if they also released an AF200. But this is just not good enough and I'm sick of waiting on Panny.

Sony FS7 it is.


Most disappointing Panny announcement ever, after all that build up.

wow, it's just all about you, isn't it?

You seriously just said that 1000s of people are wrong, and that this camera isn't professional because it doesn't have what you want.

Seriously, step back and realize there's a world out there, and you're a spec in it

hgf4
04-13-2015, 05:32 PM
I wish they'd chop off that expensive Leica branded lens and turn it into an interchangeable lens camera...and reduce the price by 2 grand in the process.

parish
04-13-2015, 05:33 PM
I wonder if my Redrock M3 adaptor will work with this camera?

mcbob
04-13-2015, 05:39 PM
Sure it will... I tested my brevis35 with the ol' GH2 years ago. It'll work, with just as much convenience and simplicity as it always has!

Completely with you filmguy. This is kind of like Apple's initial FCPX rollout. Neat enough product, but definitely not what I needed.

filmguy123
04-13-2015, 05:41 PM
You seriously just said that 1000s of people are wrong,

to be precise, I said that people who say "you don't need..." are wrong. Not people who like what this camera has to offer. Very different.

I am a spec in this world, and there are a WHOLE bunch more specs like me who I am sure would echo this. I have no problem with this camera, I have a problem with the missing camera that wasn't announced.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 05:54 PM
Ugh.

This is a fine camera for what it is, but it is not a Pro GH4 or an Af100 successor... once again...

Anyone who says "you don't need..", you are wrong. I know exactly what I need. I need a GH4 in an AF100 body with better lowligth and DR. 12 stops of DR isn't that good, and what happen to the rumored ISO improvents. And what the frick is so hard about just making an AF100.

if panny just made this with M43 and NDs the world would be good:

http://nofilmschool.com/2015/04/blackmagic-announces-lighter-ursa-mini-46k-sensor-15-stops-dynamic-range

Instead they become more irrelevant with each passing year. I swear they are just trying to shoot themselves in the foot, or assume what ENG style shooters want when we talk about an AF200. I get the reasoning here, I really do. "ENG style shooters have focus problems and don't need faster than f/2.8 anyway", don't really need wider, etc. Bull. These are not going to sell like hot cakes. I am an ENG shooter and I WANT the hassle of changing lenses. I think most people who shoot cimeatically and artisitically have long since moved on from fixed lens cameras for a lot of very good reason. I have a lens belt for ENG. I'm fast. I shoot live events with manual focus at f/0.95 sometimes. And I don't want to bounce between a GH4 and a DVX200. No, no, no. I and many others told you what we wanted multiple times. An AF200.

I would be thrilled about a DVX200 if they also released an AF200. But this is just not good enough and I'm sick of waiting on Panny.

Sony FS7 it is.

Most disappointing Panny announcement ever, after all that build up. They literally have nothing even close to a midrange pro offering to compete with anything from Sony, Canon, or Blackmagic. Just pathetic.

Well... I don't want to have to carry a lens belt. :)

And besides, a lot of folks may want the look of shallow DoF, but not the hassle of multiple lenses. I just spent a month shooting in remote parts of Vietnam on my GH4. I love the camera, but the headache of constantly messing with multiple lenses was a pain. When I shoot a surgery in an OR, there is no way I can go fast enough switching lenses at times, and I'm severely restricted in where I can move to get the right shot (I can literally kill someone if I have an off day). This will be a God-send. This is a pro level, jack of all trades camera. The lens isn't wide enough, but something tells me there will be wide angle adapters before too long. If I absolutely need 4:2:2, there are now numerous recorders on the market for fairly cheap. It won't be for some folks, and it does appear Panasonic has written off a certain segment of the market. But that segment has always been a niche that is more and more saturated. This has the potential to create it's own niche that appeals to a relatively wide array of folks that no one else is competing in. It seams to be as much a replacement for the AC130/160 as it does the AF100, and it allows me to replace two different cameras with one.

mcbob
04-13-2015, 06:10 PM
I said before, I get the point of the camera, but that isn't the point where I happen to be in my career. The GH/AF could always choose to wear a 14-140 for single-lens work. I don't relish a return to the days of hunting for a wide angle or teleconverter lens that isn't choc full of abberrations, or positioning an interview subject waaaaaaaaay the heck back in the room to defocus a background enough with a slow lens. And also from the looks of Matt Allard handling the thing (not a small man), its more HPX250-beefy than HMC150 svelte. It's absolutely strange to think that JVC currently offers a better upgrade option to me at this point than Panasonic.

It will do lots of wonderful work for lots of folks, I'm certain, but I'll be doing mine on an FS7.

DLD
04-13-2015, 06:19 PM
I said before, I get the point of the camera, but that isn't the point where I happen to be in my career. The GH/AF could always choose to wear a 14-140 for single-lens work... And I think we've stumbled onto the right answer.

If GH5 is coming out the next year, Panasonic doesn't want these two products - GH5 and AF-200 - cannibalizing each other's sales.

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 06:45 PM
I said before, I get the point of the camera, but that isn't the point where I happen to be in my career. The GH/AF could always choose to wear a 14-140 for single-lens work.

I do get where you're coming from... but it should be pointed out that the 14-140 is f4 at it's fastest. This camera will be f4.5 at it's slowest. I personally have to shoot most interviews at f4 on my AF100 or GH4 because the subject too often goes out of focus from normal head bobbing. Also, the lens at the wide end will be roughly equivalent to that of the HMC150, which is pretty dang wide for a fixed lens camera. And the 14-140 doesn't have a servo zoom or even half the reach.

Like I said, I do get where you're coming from, and I find it puzzling why they didn't just come out with an AF200 with this sensor and AVC-Ultra. It does seem like they have written off a segment of the market. Both that camera, and the DVX200, would have done well. But my bet is a lot of AF100 owners... as well as HMC150, AC130, and AC160 owners... will probably be more than happy with this camera.

skimmel
04-13-2015, 06:56 PM
I'm trying to find basic specs on this (megapixels in the sensor, weight, 422 or 420) and it's not out there. I find this very strange for a camera they say is shipping in September. Shouldn't they know and reveal these details already?

mcbob
04-13-2015, 07:19 PM
Maybe they actually timed an April fools joke using the GH4's timecode?

DrBobOh
04-13-2015, 07:25 PM
I'd like to know what the advantages would be to get this camera over the PX270. Aside from resolution, the PX has a longer lens and 10-bit color.

Just curious what all your thoughts are on the differences. They'll both come in around the same price- what gives?

I've been such a sucker for the DVX100B I've been itching for a camera like this to come out.

Bassman2003
04-13-2015, 07:31 PM
I'm trying to find basic specs on this (megapixels in the sensor, weight, 422 or 420) and it's not out there. I find this very strange for a camera they say is shipping in September. Shouldn't they know and reveal these details already?

They may be hiding this as it seems to be a downfall of the camera so far. AVCHD for HD recording was mentioned in the News Shooter video. Really? I could not believe I was hearing this. Feakin' AVCHD! The AF-100 used AVCHD and it was already tired by then. I sincerely hope there are better options to chose from as Panasonic should be embarrassed if they are leading with AVCHD in a 2015 camera release. I guess they assume you will shoot everything in 4k to get better color in HD footage.

Bassman2003
04-13-2015, 07:53 PM
The PX270 has 1/3" sensors and the DVX200 has a micro 4/3rds sensor. That is the largest difference. The depth of field will be much shallower shooting with the DVX200. The PX270 is a lot closer to the DVX100 than the DVX200. The advantage of the DVX200 is the look of the images due to the larger sensor. That is it. If you do not need this look go for the PX270. End of story.

Mike Warren
04-13-2015, 08:22 PM
And the DVX200 is 4K, while the PX270 is HD.

Emanuel
04-13-2015, 08:38 PM
Where's Barry? You're (really) missed, pal! (E :-)

Phil vG
04-13-2015, 08:51 PM
For all those after a AF200, well:

DVX100 - 2004 SD/ DVX200 - 2015 4K

so

AF100 - 2010 HD / AF200 - 2021 8K

:grin::evil:

Mike Harvey
04-13-2015, 09:05 PM
For all those after a AF200, well:

DVX100 - 2004 SD/ DVX200 - 2015 4K

so

AF100 - 2010 HD / AF200 - 2021 8K

:grin::evil:

You, sir, win the internet today :thumbsup:

reem12
04-13-2015, 09:12 PM
I really hope for their sake this camera does not have that red/black two tone. Would be really hard to show up at a commercial shoot and be taken seriously. Looks like a prop of some sort.

firehawk
04-13-2015, 09:23 PM
Well I guess this camera just gave increased shelf life to the name of our forum :). DVX lives on!

Ken Hull
04-13-2015, 10:35 PM
I really hope for their sake this camera does not have that red/black two tone. Would be really hard to show up at a commercial shoot and be taken seriously....
Yeah, that color scheme kinda makes it look like a toy. I almost expected to see the words "My Little Super Duper Camera!" displayed on the product somewhere. <sigh>

But the features are interesting. And I like the zoom range. If the image quality is good enough, I just might consider it. (I could always tape over most of the red.:grin:)

david_p
04-13-2015, 11:23 PM
yeah the color scheme is about the worst I've seen in any camcorder in my life. the original DVX100 was a cool looking camera in its day and i was always happy to be holding it. I'm interested in this camera for run & gun but really put off by the look of the whole thing and especially the RED tail section. what moron or morons came up with this? must shop at Walmart I'm thinking.

SPZ
04-13-2015, 11:58 PM
As a former DVX100 and HVX200 owner, I absolutely LOVE this. Any confirmation on codec? This could very well be the ultimate documentary/ENG camera. Would just love a tiny bit more wider, to 24mm...

joe 1008
04-14-2015, 12:09 AM
I think this is going to be a great companion the the gh4.

if i need super shallow DOF or i want to use some specific lens for some specific look then i have two Gh4's for that. if i want to run and gun, and I'm in a situation were that's not important or posable then this will be awesome.

and a lot of folks talking about how you won't be able to get the shallow dof at all with that lens but out on the end of that zoom in the 100mm range the DOF won't be that much different than with a gh4 with the pan 35-100 at f 2.8

Exactly. Expect the lens being able to provide a constant f3.5 from 29mm to almost 150mm (14mm to 70mm in M43-terms). At 4k the sensor has much less crop than the GH4 has (if the DVX200 uses the whole 43sensor). So the difference between f2.8 on the GH4 and f3.5 on the DVX200 will be even less.

Expect low light sensitivity on the DVX being superior as it has a dedicated video sensor with bigger pixels so that even with a slower lens it could be the faster camera. I give a one stop advantage of the DVX200 for granted - otherwise this camera wouldn't make much sense.

yohenk
04-14-2015, 12:11 AM
The old DVX brings back good memories. I want to shoot Panasonic over every other brand pretty badly. Reliable, great to use and always great and distinctive looking footage. But I may have to look elsewhere now.

I see the potential of the DVX200, and it would make a great second camera next to the midrange Panasonic camera that does not exist. If that would exist, I'd probably be invested in both.

I would not feel comfortable showing up with the camera looks as presented. It looks like a bad render with that red and carbon. I thought some blogger had photoshopped it. I'm sure it will deliver terrific images though. I'm somewhat excited about the DVX200 announcement, but mostly disappointed there is still no AF200.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 12:52 AM
The old DVX brings back good memories. I want to shoot Panasonic over every other brand pretty badly. Reliable, great to use and always great and distinctive looking footage. But I may have to look elsewhere now.

I see the potential of the DVX200, and it would make a great second camera next to the midrange Panasonic camera that does not exist. If that would exist, I'd probably be invested in both.

I would not feel comfortable showing up with the camera looks as presented. It looks like a bad render with that red and carbon. I thought some blogger had photoshopped it. I'm sure it will deliver terrific images though. I'm somewhat excited about the DVX200 announcement, but mostly disappointed there is still no AF200.

This

TheDingo
04-14-2015, 02:58 AM
I'm somewhat excited about the DVX200 announcement, but mostly disappointed there is still no AF200.

+1

vanvideo
04-14-2015, 03:29 AM
I would not feel comfortable showing up with the camera looks as presented. It looks like a bad render with that red and carbon. I thought some blogger had photoshopped it. I'm sure it will deliver terrific images though. I'm somewhat excited about the DVX200 announcement, but mostly disappointed there is still no AF200.


I love the color! I've always wanted a RED camera (ha ha).

And there's always the JVC LS-300 if you want a M43 mount, S35 4K camera.

alpi69
04-14-2015, 04:55 AM
Does this camera have any competition ?

Depends on the codec, but there is no big-sensor run-n-gun camcorder out there that shoots 4K!
I might get 2 or 3, because this will be the workhorse for sportsdocs and live productions in 4K.

I hope in HD we can get a cropped mode, doubling the lens reach and maybe even doubling the framerate (4K 60p - HD 120fps)...that would be nice!
All that with V-Log then this would be the perfect B-Cam and Behind the scenes cam as well.

Darren Levine
04-14-2015, 05:25 AM
Still some key details not yet clear, but it is listed as a new sensor, and as I repeat like a broken record or bored parrot, if it achieves solid iso3200 performance, it could become my worlhorse

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 05:38 AM
Barry, you are at NAB and have a close relationship with Panasonic. Why are they not telling us critical details, such as bit rate, color depth and base ISO. I realize that the camera was a nonworking mockup, are these things yet to be determined?

Gabriel Berube
04-14-2015, 05:39 AM
Still some key details not yet clear, but it is listed as a new sensor, and as I repeat like a broken record or bored parrot, if it achieves solid iso3200 performance, it could become my worlhorse

I agree, add in a parfocal lens and this gets my vote as a solid upgrade from any previous fixed-lens cameras. I personally don't mind the colors, but that's just me, I like bright colors :-)

Mike Harvey
04-14-2015, 05:53 AM
Barry, you are at NAB and have a close relationship with Panasonic. Why are they not telling us critical details, such as bit rate, color depth and base ISO. I realize that the camera was a nonworking mockup, are these things yet to be determined?

In one of the videos, the rep said it was the GH4 codecs... so 8bit 4:2:0, at 25mb/s, 50mb/s, 100mb/s long-gop, and 200mb/s I-frame. 4k at 100mb/s long-gop. Really disappointing it's not AVC-LongG.

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 05:57 AM
In one of the videos, the rep said it was the GH4 codecs... so 8bit 4:2:0, at 25mb/s, 50mb/s, 100mb/s long-gop, and 200mb/s I-frame. 4k at 100mb/s long-gop. Really disappointing it's not AVC-LongG.

Not sure that the rep knows. I saw a video that also had a rep saying it had the GH4 sensor. There is always a lot of confusion at shows. At least I hope this is the case. Even the Canon XC10 has broadcast codecs at $2500 (in a much less powerful package).

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 06:02 AM
The codec and bit depth specs are making me think $5,000 is optimistic. Why not have separate codecs for 1080p/720p and 4k? Are they really going to try and convince us that heat and processing power is stopping them from using a 10bit 4:2:2 codec to record 1080p? The camera design is cool, but I do not want to pay $5,000 for DSLR level codecs.

Phil vG
04-14-2015, 06:04 AM
I really don't get why it would only have a 13x zoom.:huh:

With the acceptation of the AC-90, all the AC and HPX cameras have 22x.
So whats with the 13?
That's just not enough for me!

FrameFarmMedia
04-14-2015, 06:08 AM
I really don't get why it would only have a 13x zoom.:huh:

With the acceptation of the AC-90, all the AC and HPX cameras have 22x.
So whats with the 13? That's just not enough for me :(
The 4/3 sensor is much bigger than the ones in AC/HPX series so a lens would have to be much much bigger and much more expensive to give the same range options which is why you only see 13x zoom. Most large sensor zooms rarely go above 10x.

ade4all
04-14-2015, 06:09 AM
its got a m43 sensor in it - 22x zoom would be huge

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 06:09 AM
The large sensor size makes lenses more difficult and large to make massive zoom ranges. 13x is actually quite good for a m4/3rds sensor. The DVX100 had the same zoom range with a 1/3" sensor.

Bandido
04-14-2015, 06:17 AM
We are going to have to wait for the actual product to start shipping, but so far this mockup it is just a pretty prototype, (just like a flashy sports car). Spec wise it is like a HC-X1000 with a bigger sensor. This is the competitor to the Sony PXW-Z100. It should work better in low light due to the larger sensor. There is no mention of professional level codecs. I wish they would stop calling this the "4k DVX100" (DVX was taped based). This should be called the "pro" version of the HC-X1000.
There is a market for "run and gun" 4k camcorders, but we are still waiting for the AF100 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/731509-REG/Panasonic_AG_AF100_AG_AF100_Micro_4_3_Professional .html/BI/5955/KBID/6829) successor.

Bandido
04-14-2015, 06:26 AM
We are going to have to wait for the actual product to start shipping, but so far this mockup it is just a pretty prototype (just like a flashy sports car). Spec wise it is like putting a GH4 brain in a HC-X1000 body. This is the competitor to the Sony PXW-Z100. It should work better in low light due to the larger sensor. Hopefully it is going to be better than the GH4 in regards to noise levels. I wish they would stop calling this the "4k DVX100" (DVX was taped based). This camera should be called the "pro" version of the HC-X1000. There is a market for "run and gun" 4k camcorders, but we are still waiting for the AF100 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/731509-REG/Panasonic_AG_AF100_AG_AF100_Micro_4_3_Professional .html/BI/5955/KBID/6829) successor.

Mike Harvey
04-14-2015, 06:32 AM
Here's a question... they keep going on about 12 stops because of Vlog. How many stops does it have when not using Vlog? If it's meant to be run-n-gun, there are a lot of scenarios where I need a good baked in look with little or no messing around in post. What is that going to cost me in terms of dynamic range?

combatentropy
04-14-2015, 06:41 AM
Not sure that the rep knows. I saw a video that also had a rep saying it had the GH4 sensor. There is always a lot of confusion at shows.

At the last NAB, one of the reps for a camera with a PL mount said that PL stood for Prime Lens.

This NAB, Blackmagic's president didn't know whether rolling and global shutter are selectable (https://youtu.be/6Zh-HnMX-84?t=9m35s) in the new URSA Mini.

Honestly I wish each company would just fly out the engineers themselves. No matter how socially awkward they are, it would be more insightful. You can't outgeek us here. Although, come to think of it, when one of us asks, "Why didn't you make it do X," the engineer might say, "Well, we wanted to, but our boss told us, 'No'." Awkward...

TFilipiak
04-14-2015, 06:51 AM
I think a couple of things can be gleaned from this year's NAB:
1- The 'rumor' websites are to be taken with a grain of salt. (and that's an understatement!)
2- Panasonic isn't listening to it's customers.
I understand there is a real market for the DVX200. And Panasonic has filled that need.
But seriously, how difficult would it have been to develop an interchangeable lens version in tandem with the DVX??? They could have easily introduced 2 new cameras at NAB.
It looks like they have ceded that segment of the market to JVC, BMD, AJA, etc.
Bye-Bye Panny...

mcbob
04-14-2015, 06:56 AM
Pro internal codecs. It's not that difficult. EVERY other camera manufacturer has a camera in that size and price range with broadcast ready 4k. Their flim-flam about "heat" is extremely weak.

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 07:02 AM
Why waste the energy going on and on about what a camera isn't? If it isn't for you, just move on.

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 07:07 AM
I guess there is some hope that this forum could be some sort of customer feedback... Maybe Panasonic would see some of these comments?...

Firstbase
04-14-2015, 07:07 AM
I think a couple of things can be gleaned from this year's NAB:
1- The 'rumor' websites are to be taken with a grain of salt. (and that's an understatement!)
2- Panasonic isn't listening to it's customers.
I understand there is a real market for the DVX200. And Panasonic has filled that need.
But seriously, how difficult would it have been to develop an interchangeable lens version in tandem with the DVX??? They could have easily introduced 2 new cameras at NAB.
It looks like they have ceded that segment of the market to JVC, BMD, AJA, etc.
Bye-Bye Panny...

Precisely.

mcbob
04-14-2015, 07:36 AM
Why waste the energy going on and on about what a camera isn't? If it isn't for you, just move on.

Catharsis, I guess ;) My own fault for waiting and getting my hopes up.

fastfinger
04-14-2015, 07:38 AM
Glad I held off on the HC-X1000... I need a camera that can pan with stabilization on, and has smooth aperture changes. 4k 60fps Seems a perfect fit for what I shoot

Alex H.
04-14-2015, 07:43 AM
Why waste the energy going on and on about what a camera isn't? If it isn't for you, just move on.

Exactly.

I'm actually quite interested in this camera. I loved my DVX-100A, and still miss having one (except that I have no SD workflow anymore). How many of us had a DVX-100/A/B and got what we needed out of it? So, this is a familiar form factor with HD and 4K, and with HD-SDI out and TC in/out. For me, personally, it's what I would love to have for many of my more chaotic projects where DSLR is kind of a PITA, and seems to hit a sweet spot that the orginal DVX pioneered (and that the HMC-40 and AC-90A didn't quite reach).

It will be interesting to see exactly what this camera actually can do, once it is available and there is footage to see. It's hard to jump to any hard conclusions until that point. Of course, the biggest question... will it make that mysterious clunking noise?

DLD
04-14-2015, 07:59 AM
No footage yet?

combatentropy
04-14-2015, 08:21 AM
Why waste the energy going on and on about what a camera isn't? If it isn't for you, just move on.

When you know a certain thing is possible and would help the seller and buyer, but don't see it, even after years, even after you and others have spelled it out everywhere that you can, is the best response silence?

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 08:32 AM
When you know a certain thing is possible and would help the seller and buyer, but don't see it, even after years, even after you and others have spelled it out everywhere that you can, is the best response silence?

I didn't say anyone should be "silent," but repeating the same thing over and over doesn't do anything for anyone, either.

zijital
04-14-2015, 08:53 AM
I know a rose by any other name... but I kind of wish the DVX200 was called the LVX300

a.b.c. D e.f.g. H i.j.k. L


DVX100 (Digital cinema)
HVX200 (High-def)
LVX300 (Large sensor)

mojo92.1
04-14-2015, 09:03 AM
What would be the preferred color?

mojo92.1
04-14-2015, 09:09 AM
Yep. Taking notes...

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 09:11 AM
I know a rose by any other name... but I kind of wish the DVX200 was called the LVX300

a.b.c. D e.f.g. H i.j.k. L


DVX100 (Digital cinema)
HVX200 (High-def)
LVX300 (Large sensor)

In the old convention, D = standard def. V = DV tape. X = 24p. H = Hi-Def. P = P2.

So the name doesn't actually make sense, but they're obviously banking on the good will of the association with the DVX100. Seems to be working, too.

DrBobOh
04-14-2015, 09:25 AM
I actually love the color scheme- I wouldn't be worried about first-impressions with clients seeing your camera. Present yourself professionally and clients will act accordingly.

I'd like to know if it will do 10-bit color. I'd rather 10-bit HD (or 2k) over 4k 8bit.

zijital
04-14-2015, 09:41 AM
So the name doesn't actually make sense, but they're obviously banking on the good will of the association with the DVX100. Seems to be working, too.

It also seems to be saying that Panasonic doesn't think the HVX or AF100 have any lasting reputation. I understanding building on a brand, but it also seems like they're saying their other cameras sucked (which they didn't when they were released).

Still, for the buzz it's getting, you're right, it seems to be working.

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 09:50 AM
It also seems to be saying that Panasonic doesn't think the HVX or AF100 have any lasting reputation. I understanding building on a brand, but it also seems like they're saying their other cameras sucked (which they didn't when they were released).

I'm not so sure THAT'S true. They could only give the thing one name. I don't think they're slighting any other camera.

But I wouldn't put the AF100 in the same category as the DVX100 or the HVX200. The latter two were revolutions, and blew away all the other camers in their classes, because they were the first to offer revolutionary things. The AF100, not so much. Which isn't to say the AF100 wasn't a good camera, only that it never held the same place of esteem, and didn't bring anything particularly revolutionary to the market.

mcgeedigital
04-14-2015, 09:58 AM
No footage yet?

Hard to get footage from a marketing model that is an empty shell.

thedarkhorse
04-14-2015, 10:08 AM
The internal codecs are the same as the GH4(8-bit 420) with 10-bit 422 coming out of the HDMI 2.0 port @ 4k60p - these are specifically mentioned in this B&H video about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfYg7b5K91w

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 10:12 AM
Why waste the energy going on and on about what a camera isn't? If it isn't for you, just move on.

because I am like a petulant child on Christmas who was waiting for Panasonic to finally deliver what we've been asking for for about 4+ years now, and they just took a crap under the Christmas tree and wrapped it up in black and red wrapping paper. My little brother is cool with the gift, but he had plenty of presents already. So now I don't believe in Santa anymore, and while I really don't want to convert, I am now forced to turn to Kwanzaa to celebrate and buy an FS7.

So I have to vent because under all the rage, I am actually really butt hurt about how Santa did this to me. I really believed in Santa and my hopes and dreams have been crushed. Most disappointing Christmas ever, this NAB show has been.

That's why.

ATL Media Group
04-14-2015, 10:12 AM
I'm honestly perplexed at all the negativity... Look, Canon made the C100 and C100 MKII for around $5K at launch (MKII is $5500) without a lens, and with AVCHD, and HD only.... and they sell like HOTCAKES.. The wedding shooters eat them up.... So why wouldn't this do the same? It seems to me that if this comes in at under 5K (closer to 4K would be better) it would be a great choice for run and gun event shooters. Looks tome like a great camera for that purpose. ??

TheDingo
04-14-2015, 10:18 AM
The wedding shooters eat them up.... So why wouldn't this do the same?

I definitely think this camera will do well with wedding and live event shooters, especially if the 5-axis stabilization and AF work well. Panasonic should have a big hit on their hands.

For the rest of us that no longer shoot with ENG cameras, this new camera does nothing for our m4/3 lens collections...

ATL Media Group
04-14-2015, 10:26 AM
I definitely think this camera will do well with wedding and live event shooters, especially if the 5-axis stabilization and AF work well. Panasonic should have a big hit on their hands.

For the rest of us that no longer shoot with ENG cameras, this new camera does nothing for our m4/3 lens collections...

Oh that's true.. I see this as companion to a GH4. With so many GH4 shooters out there looking for a second cam this would be a great choice.

ugafan
04-14-2015, 10:28 AM
I'm honestly perplexed at all the negativity... Look, Canon made the C100 and C100 MKII for around $5K at launch (MKII is $5500) without a lens, and with AVCHD, and HD only.... and they sell like HOTCAKES.. The wedding shooters eat them up.... So why wouldn't this do the same? It seems to me that if this comes in at under 5K (closer to 4K would be better) it would be a great choice for run and gun event shooters. Looks tome like a great camera for that purpose. ??

the original dvx was definitely used for shooting weddings and live events. but it got its legendary reputation because of independent filmmakers. filmmakers were hoping the camera would be geared towards them and it's not. that why there is negativity.

ATL Media Group
04-14-2015, 10:35 AM
the original dvx was definitely used for shooting weddings and live events. but it got its legendary reputation because of independent filmmakers. filmmakers were hoping the camera would be geared towards them and it's not. that why there is negativity.


Ahh. yeah... I had the DVX100A because of he 24P but I used it for weddings.. I do remember all the indy filmmakers raving about it though. It brought something new which this doesn't really do. I see their point.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 10:37 AM
it would be a great choice for run and gun event shooters. Looks tome like a great camera for that purpose. ??



For the rest of us that no longer shoot with ENG cameras, this new camera does nothing for our m4/3 lens collections...

As a run and gun (and I think there are many like me) I have adapted and found most clients like "cinematic style" run and gun. This camera is cool for what it is. Without interchangeable lens you lose an entire artistic canvas, and for those who have become fast at manual focus, not having access to faster manual lenses (or my entire M43 lens invest) is a non-starter.

Most negativity is not directed at DVX200 itself, just at Panasonic. I am sad about not having a better outlet for my M43 lens collection. The JVC option is appealing in paper but not impressed from what I have seen, and JVCs reputation precedes them.

I am mostly perplexed as to how much of a hit and momentum panny had with the GH4, they really should have capitalized. Honestly if they had released a killer AF200 it would have restored long term faith in the format, and I was ready to build a really robust kit - 3x more Voigtlander lenses, 2x more GH4s, and AF200, etc. That would be killer. The Gh4 would have sold even better have a matching big brother, I would assume. Now I am just questioning if I should ditch the M43 mount altogether and just jump in to S35 with the rest of the world. I think it may be time. maybe I'm alone in that, but I don't think so. A lot of people I had been talking to who had scoffed at M43 were becomign VERY interested after the hit the GH4 was.

Who knows, but this is what we've got, so... oh well.

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 10:40 AM
I'm honestly perplexed at all the negativity... Look, Canon made the C100 and C100 MKII for around $5K at launch (MKII is $5500) without a lens, and with AVCHD, and HD only.... and they sell like HOTCAKES.. The wedding shooters eat them up.... So why wouldn't this do the same? It seems to me that if this comes in at under 5K (closer to 4K would be better) it would be a great choice for run and gun event shooters. Looks tome like a great camera for that purpose. ??

Because Panasonic is not Canon. There is no CanonUser.com hugely successful video forum out there. We all like that Panasonic has always delivered on the engineering end. $4,500 gets you a PX270 with an awesome codec array. Seems the nuts and bolts of this approach has been taken over by the marketing team. The idea of this camera is pretty much on target to be disruptive though the specs are underwhelming from a recording point of view. The image might be fabulous like the C100, but that is yet to be seen.

Barry_Green
04-14-2015, 10:44 AM
Correct, it is not an AF successor. It is, basically, a large sensor 4K HVX. An events/doc camera with 4k/60p which can also do shallow-dof interviews, weddings, and TV. No rig or cage or accessories required, a proper zoom lens with superb OIS, hyperfast autofocus, built-in ND's and XLRs, and no need to buy additional lenses or deal with SLR zooms, etc.

I was unsure about this cam when I first heard about it, but branding it DVX makes it make a lot more sense.

Which means we can now confidently say that all those 16-stop AF successor rumors were, and always were, 100% pure and unadulterated horsecrap.

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 10:46 AM
Cameras are such a small part of what it cost to shoot. Time on the set is the big problem. Anything that makes that flow faster saves money. You can do that with a crew, or you can do it by simplifying equipment. I predict that one man band film shooters will use the DVX200 much more than people are predicting. It promises better IQ and sound and zooms and greater ease of use than a GH4, and people already use GH4s for microbudget films. For people who do not already have a collection of MTF lenses it is a more inexpensive solution. I have about ten lenses, but I think the workflow and IQ will save me more money (including no more rigs!) than I will loose by selling these lenses to finance a DVX200. People in my community made many films with event cameras, even old ones, and that is the only way they could budget for actors, sets and craft services. I predict this will happen with the DVX200. If you can afford more, then go ahead and make it appear on the screen.

Just saying. You don't have to agree, but a while a generation of film makers has been trained to look to DSLRs (and DSLR look alikes such as the Canon C series) that is not the only solution, nor is it always ultimately the most inexpensive. Micro budget filming is always a compromise where nothing is as good as it could be, so choose wisely.

mcbob
04-14-2015, 10:48 AM
Echoing Filmguy123 pretty much word for word. Same exact boat. I'll take port side oar.

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 10:53 AM
Great hear from you Barry. Can you find out more info on the codecs and if there is any hope of 10bit 4:2:2 in HD? Thanks.

mcbob
04-14-2015, 10:54 AM
You don't have to agree, but a while generation of film makers has been trained to look to DSLRs (and DSLR look alike such as the Canon C series) but that is not the only solution, nor is it always ultimately the most inexpensive.
I don't disagree with you at all... this camera looks like a nice solution, but definitely doesn't fit the need for a professional AF100 successor with improved sensor and broadcast codecs. They didn't even have to change that goblinish little body...
Oh well. Thankfully, other camera companies have a few contenders to fill that gap.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 11:13 AM
Now that I have let all my negativity out... on a more positive note I am very intrigued by what the 5 axis stabilization is. Not that I will be buying one of these, but in concept and on a technical level I would really like to know more about it.

My gut says it can't be that cool, because they didn't seem to talk about it that much - but if it was gyro level stabilization built into a handheld lens that would an insane selling point. But given that it's only had a brief mention and not a tech demo, I highly doubt this camera will allow for steadicam level control handheld. If it did, though, it would be pretty revolutionary for being built into a camera.

Also, if they were going to go this route, I personally would have rather seen a shorter zoom lens to gain an extra stop - say 10x at a constant F/2.0 or 2.8 would have been very interesting. Also, if they were going this route, I think an S35 sensor would have been more interesting. The sell of M4/3 mount to me has never been the sensor, it has been the lens mount. Since there is no lens mount, I think a larger sensor to help compensate for a slower lens (espec if they could have got it slightly wider, faster, and constant f-stop) would have been pretty killer. Then, f/2.0 on an S35 ain't so bad either for lowlight or DoF.

In short.. DVX200 with:

S35 sensor w/14-15 stops DR
35mm equiv 24-240 f/2.0 or 2.8 constant aperture (or something in this ballpark) [also easier to obtain that wide w/s35)
5 axis in built gyro level stabilization

As much as I would have lamented the loss of a lens mount, I think this would have me pretty intrigued as the specs would just play off each other so much better in terms of what would be artistically achievable.

Also, there seemed to be no mention of slow motion which was strange. The stats all mentioned up to 60p in any mode, but no mention of what the camera can do for VFR in 1080p which is a loss.

I think a little more robust of a codec would have been big, too.

Anyway, I know this back to discussing what the camera is not but I could see the appeal of a fixed lens that much more if the compromises were far less - what I described here might have been enough to make me go "ok, yeah, I could work with that". But M4/3 with a 28mm and F2.8 max is not really cutting it for me, especially since rumored ISO announcements didn't materialize. If they could have pulled an A7S and got lowlight on M4/3 @ F2.8 that looked like a GH4 at f/1.2, hey, again, that could have been something at least... (though not enough to answer the desire for shallower DoF and a slightly wider angle)

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 11:16 AM
Now that I have let all my negativity out... on a more positive note I am very intrigued by what the 5 axis stabilization is. Not that I will be buying one of these, but in concept and on a technical level I would really like to know more about it.

My gut says it can't be that cool, because they didn't seem to talk about it that much - but if it was gyro level stabilization built into a handheld lens that would an insane selling point. But given that it's only had a brief mention and not a tech demo, I highly doubt this camera will allow for steadicam level control handheld. If it did, though, it would be pretty revolutionary for being built into a camera.


It is OIS combined with active frame shift on a sensor with "4x active area." (That can't mean what it looks like on first glance, or does it?) Barry describes it as "superb" and he is in a position to talk with the highest levels of Panasonic imaging.

Mike Harvey
04-14-2015, 11:23 AM
Oh that's true.. I see this as companion to a GH4. With so many GH4 shooters out there looking for a second cam this would be a great choice.

I think Panasonic's strategy to a degree is why come out with a proper AF200, when they're about to give the GH4 Vlog? I kinda think they looked at the volume of GH4's they've sold, and decided they would sell a lot more DVX200's than AF200's that would be competing with Sony, Canon, Black Magic, and JVC. As much as I think that's a mistake, something tells me they didn't feel they would sell enough AF200's with the DVX200 and GH4 also in their line-up, and saw the potential for a lot more sales of the DVX200 than AF200.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 11:42 AM
That may be right Mike! Maybe they'll have something up their sleeve next year with a GH4... a GH5 and a GH5 Pro? Who knows.

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 11:47 AM
Just out of curiosity --

Those who wanted more, who wanted this, that, and the other thing --

How hard did you try to communicate all of this directly to Panasonic? What exactly did you do to make your wish list heard?

It just seems like some are taking this as being personally slighted by Panasonic. So what did you personally do to express what you wanted, to them?

If you didn't do ANYTHING, well, what could you really expect? How do you figure to have your prayers answered if you never pray? I'm not saying it would have worked, but it definitely won't if you don't try.

mcbob
04-14-2015, 11:56 AM
Depends what you consider "anything..."

I posted in the several "what do you want" AF threads that emerged.

I sent emails to Jan when she was around. I sent a few emails and questions to Panasonic support via PASS(?)

I spoke for the original AF years after many had dismissed it (and still will, it still works reasonably well for HD production)

I bought m43 system lenses, Panasonic m43 bodies, and waited anxiously for something newer.

Yeah. I'm just one guy with one camera. A station manager with a contract for dozens of units might be heard just slightly more. I did what I could, so if I bitch and moan, it's at least not without prior squashed effort.

alohype
04-14-2015, 11:58 AM
I think Panasonic's strategy to a degree is why come out with a proper AF200, when they're about to give the GH4 Vlog? I kinda think they looked at the volume of GH4's they've sold, and decided they would sell a lot more DVX200's than AF200's that would be competing with Sony, Canon, Black Magic, and JVC. As much as I think that's a mistake, something tells me they didn't feel they would sell enough AF200's with the DVX200 and GH4 also in their line-up, and saw the potential for a lot more sales of the DVX200 than AF200.
Boils down to simple fact:
What customers want ≠ what companies want (make most money)

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 12:01 PM
That is about all "we" can do at this level (mcbob's post). Not that Panasonic wants our input. Barry posted some info gathering from Panasonic's consumer division about the future of the GH4 line. I do not know if this camera is included or not.

But I think it goes without saying that folks want strong codecs and light gathering/low noise from all cameras to be used in a professional situation. We should not have to feature request to get beyond AVCHD.

DLD
04-14-2015, 12:10 PM
I think Panasonic's strategy to a degree is why come out with a proper AF200, when they're about to give the GH4 Vlog? I kinda think they looked at the volume of GH4's they've sold, and decided they would sell a lot more DVX200's than AF200's that would be competing with Sony, Canon, Black Magic, and JVC. As much as I think that's a mistake, something tells me they didn't feel they would sell enough AF200's with the DVX200 and GH4 also in their line-up, and saw the potential for a lot more sales of the DVX200 than AF200. They are not competing with Sony, which is not competing with Canon, which is not competing with Nikon, which is not competing with Panasonic.

The way it shapes up so far is this --

Panasonic has the sole 4K DSLR type camera under $2,000 with GH4, LS100 and FZ1000. None of Canon, Sony, Nikon or Olympus (partially owned by Sony) has an entry in that market segment.

Sony has a sole DSLR/SLM 4K camera in the $2,500 range in A7s, which needs to record its 4K externally onto a Shogun or Q7.

Panasonic has the sole small sensor pro camcorder for $3,500.

JVC has the sole s35 MFT 4K IL camcorder for $4,000.

Panasonic will have the sole large sensor 4K camcorder, once DVX200 comes out, for $5,000.

Canon will have the sole 1080p pro IL camera in C100 MK II for $5,500.

Sony has had small sensor 4K camcorders in the $4,500-$5,000 range.

Sony has a sole 4K pro ILC camcorder for $8,000.

Canon has the sole 4K pro camera for $16,000.

All these are very neat and tidily arranged like chess pieces.

Of course, there is nothing accidental about how the chess pieces are arranged. And this looks far too convenient to be accidental as well.


Hard to get footage from a marketing model that is an empty shell. Well, maybe someone ought to slide a media card in and push the record button. You never know what might happen, plastic shell or not.

hgf4
04-14-2015, 12:30 PM
Panasonic has the sole 4K DSLR type camera under $2,000 with GH4, LS100 and FZ1000. None of Canon, Sony, Nikon or Olympus (partially owned by Sony) has an entry in that market segment.

Sony has a sole DSLR/SLM 4K camera in the $2,500 range in A7s, which needs to record its 4K externally onto a Shogun or Q7.

Panasonic has the sole small sensor pro camcorder for $3,500.


Don't forget about the Samsung NX1 and the nx500 which is $700 (with a lens). I'm impressed with the NX1.

DLD
04-14-2015, 12:38 PM
Don't forget about the Samsung NX1 and the nx500 which is $700 (with a lens). I'm impressed with the NX1. Samsung is a South Korean company and thus has no connection to the Japanese "keiretsu" practices.

In Japan, cartels are legal. In the US, the Justice Department Anti-Trust division would have a big problem with that ... had it been practiced by the US based company. Here, they're looking the other way.

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 12:38 PM
If you're e-mailing the Panasonic powers that be, then you're communicating directly with them. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, and at least you tried. So if you tried to communicate with them, then I feel for you.

But if you're just posting on message boards, and expecting them to know what people want, then that's something entirely different. They're not shooters; they're engineers and sales people. They can only know what professionals want by professionals telling them, and I don't see why anything would go without saying.

From their point of view, their MASSIVE successes in the low-end professional and prosumer markets were fixed-lens cameras, one of which they're trying to evoke with this one. Their only interchangeable-lens model didn't do anywhere near as well. You say that it's what "professionals" want, but they see what people bought.

As for the codecs and low-light performance, they again look at what sold. The GH4 was apparently a big hit with those codecs, when other cameras offered more robust codecs.

My point is, you can't expect them just to KNOW what it is you want. You also can't cry foul if they don't make something you never actually asked for. If enough people had -- as in, had actually communicated with them, directly or with their $$$$, then things might have been different.

It's very possible that the people who DID communicate with them asked for exactly what they put out. I'm not them, and I don't know who communicated what, but if 100 people ask for one thing, and only 2 ask for another, which do you think is more likely to happen? More voice, more result.

Darren Levine
04-14-2015, 12:48 PM
I have a less kind question than you have poised, David.

For those of you outright complaining about panasonic over this, and what the camera should have been...

Is complaining about it making you feel better in some way? Do you think if enough people complain that panasonic will somehow hear and want to make a camera specially so that some forum'ers will love them again?

Maybe i should complain about my cell phone not having a s35 sensor and record RAW. oh wait, that would be silly.

hscully
04-14-2015, 12:59 PM
I'm a very happy AF100 shooter. I've upgraded to something else but still have my AF100 and still use it. For years after the release of the AF100 it got the snot beat out of it on this forum. If I were Panasonic, I'd run as far and and as fast as I could. I find it disingenuous, at least, that so many pine for a camera that got such a universal drubbing here. Maybe they were listening then, when Jan was our advocate, I don't know. But if they guided their actions by what was written here about the AF100, it's no huge doubt to me why they would not have followed it up.

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 01:01 PM
What happened to Jan?

Dave Rochelle
04-14-2015, 01:01 PM
As a run and gun (and I think there are many like me) I have adapted and found most clients like "cinematic style" run and gun. This camera is cool for what it is. Without interchangeable lens you lose an entire artistic canvas, and for those who have become fast at manual focus, not having access to faster manual lenses (or my entire M43 lens invest) is a non-starter.

Most negativity is not directed at DVX200 itself, just at Panasonic. I am sad about not having a better outlet for my M43 lens collection. The JVC option is appealing in paper but not impressed from what I have seen, and JVCs reputation precedes them.

I am mostly perplexed as to how much of a hit and momentum panny had with the GH4, they really should have capitalized. Honestly if they had released a killer AF200 it would have restored long term faith in the format, and I was ready to build a really robust kit - 3x more Voigtlander lenses, 2x more GH4s, and AF200, etc. That would be killer. The Gh4 would have sold even better have a matching big brother, I would assume. Now I am just questioning if I should ditch the M43 mount altogether and just jump in to S35 with the rest of the world. I think it may be time. maybe I'm alone in that, but I don't think so. A lot of people I had been talking to who had scoffed at M43 were becomign VERY interested after the hit the GH4 was.

Who knows, but this is what we've got, so... oh well.

This is my situation exactly - so you are absolutely not alone in that. And I definitely think for many the DVX200 may be the perfect jack of all trades camera that covers most of what they need a camera to do. For me, I like to select the camera (and quite often also the lens) appropriate for the exact job I am doing, and the breadth of work I do supports that method and justifies the collection of gear necessary to accomplish it... to a point.

I have a run & gun small sensor cam with a long zoom, and I have DSLRs, but much of my stuff needs a cinematic treatment "on a budget" - and the AF100 was THE camera for that when it debuted. I slowly but surely acquired more & more m43 lenses and DSLR bodies and have enjoyed the interchangeability across the gear lineup. The size, price and quality combination has been tough to beat... but without a m43 format successor to the AF100, I'm in the same boat you (and probably many others) are... switch to a different format (whether it be Canon, Sony, etc.). That hurts - not just in the wallet, but in terms of workflow and comfort. I agree with Filmguy that much of the negativity around the DVX200 announcement has far less to do with the camera itself and more with the rapidly fleeting possibility that Panasonic (or anyone else) will ever create another m43 camera that functions like the AF100.

The additional hurt at this point, is that I had pretty much resigned myself to this fact a year ago and was mentally gearing up for an FS7 when I started hearing rumors about another Panasonic AF camera again. So kinda got my hopes up all over again. That's no one's fault... just trying to offer an explanation for some of the vitriol post-Panasonic NAB announcement. Those of us in this boat are frustrated that Panasonic doesn't see the market we represent as viable enough to create a new camera. At the end of the day they're running their business as they best see fit, and we will simply have to choose another product.

mcbob
04-14-2015, 01:08 PM
Yes, actually, it's very cathartic... a lot like complaining about taxes and .gov waste - I don't expect a damn thing will change, but it's nice to voice an opinion on the off chance that it sways anothers' opinion somewhere. Just maybe, enough voices....

If your cell phone company hinted for years that it would put S35 Raw video in your phone, demonstrated for years that it could and would put S35 and Raw separately in various products of similar size, and then yesterday said "a BIG announcement is coming for you all regarding S35 and Raw!" and then debuted a too-large tablet with compressed S35 video... complaining just a little wouldn't be all that silly.

Bassman2003
04-14-2015, 01:14 PM
Hey, I think we all have a right to like or dislike a product offering. After all, we are the ones it is aimed at, aren't we? This camera is probably made of balsa wood right now, so voicing some opinions *may* instigate a firmware change or something of the like. Though probably not...

For the record, I have stated many times that I wanted this type of camera. So I am happy they made it, just not happy that it falls short next to my PX270 in terms of acquisition. If they can make the PX270 without me asking them, why can't they make the DVX200 in the same way? I know the processing for 4k might be a heat issue, but what about 1080p or 720p? I do not think it is asking too much for 10bit 4:2:2. Maybe it is in there, but If they do not lead with it, then chances are slim.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 01:27 PM
Yes, venting does make people feel better. Just like when you have a crappy day at work and have a beer and vent about your boss. It doesn't fix it, but it does make you feel better.

"forum'ers" are merely a representation of a demographic. Panasonic is made up of marketing and advertising and consumer research divisions as well - not just sales and engineering. It is a companies responsibility to figure out what their customers want, and companies vigorously pursue this. I have been approached by Panasonic as they scour vimeo to find footage shot on their cameras to promote on their websites because they wanted to showcase it. I have participated in market research groups from various companies paying hundreds of dollars just to get consumer opinions. You can bet very well they read forums and blogs and comments listen to customers at booths, etc. Jan used to hunt these forums and even ask threads "what do you want to see in AF100" etc. There have been no shortage of people saying that they want - a midrange $5-$8k interchangeable offering from Panasonic. M4/3 makes sense, an S35 would have been cool too - but for years they have delivered neither. And yes, I have talked to Panasonic reps directly and many others have as well. Forums is the 2015 version of where MANY companies go for feedback - it's total, brutal honest conversations and arguing. Companies would have paid thousands for this sort of market research only 20 years ago.


Brands should take it as a compliment when their users get pissed. It means their users are invested and care about their products. I believe Panny gave us what their interpretation of what people are asking for - a GH4 suited for more run and gun work. My take is, they made the assumption that run and gun users are only using interchangeable lenses because they had to, and overlooked the possibility that perhaps they have grown to WANT to. From observing their marketing on this, it does seem they were trying to appeal to the group of people asking for an AF200/run'n'gun styled GH4. If this is true, they missed the boat for many people. No doubt it will hit it for some.

Maybe their business guys know best, and business is business. But as Panny and other companies show us every year, the business guys don't always know best. If they did, there would never be flops would there be? I hope the DVX200 succeeds for the people who dig it, but either way, I'm butt hurt that my favorite camera company didn't produce for the 4th year in a row what many of us want.

filmguy123
04-14-2015, 01:28 PM
The additional hurt at this point, is that I had pretty much resigned myself to this fact a year ago and was mentally gearing up for an FS7 when I started hearing rumors about another Panasonic AF camera again. So kinda got my hopes up all over again. That's no one's fault... just trying to offer an explanation for some of the vitriol post-Panasonic NAB announcement. Those of us in this boat are frustrated that Panasonic doesn't see the market we represent as viable enough to create a new camera. At the end of the day they're running their business as they best see fit, and we will simply have to choose another product.

This

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 01:31 PM
How do they know you're "getting pissed," if you're not talking to them?

You aren't expressing anything to them by posting this stuff here.

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 01:42 PM
Jan used to read this site and report our concerns, and get a response. Is there no one to do this now?

vorrik
04-14-2015, 01:44 PM
Great hear from you Barry. Can you find out more info on the codecs and if there is any hope of 10bit 4:2:2 in HD? Thanks.

Looks like HD is AVCHD only, 4k has a .mov wrapper and since it is on a SD card its probably 4:2:0 (in other words these appear to be most of the codecs in the Gh4).

The 3g-sdi is for HD monitoring only and the HDMI out is 10 bit 4:2:2 - looks like you need an external recorder if you want 10 bit 4:2:2.

These answers are from a Pansonic rep in this video:
http://bcove.me/6n9c9q24

Bruce Watson
04-14-2015, 01:45 PM
What happened to Jan?

Retired.

pulpfiction007
04-14-2015, 01:58 PM
How do they know you're "getting pissed," if you're not talking to them?

You aren't expressing anything to them by posting this stuff here.

If Panasonic doesn't know enough by now to have a representative of some sort occasionally visit here to view feedback on their offerings, then they are quite ignorant. When I first looked for tests and info about the DVX100, this site came up. If you look for info about the HMC150, HVX200, GH2, 3 or 4, AF100... this site comes up.

For Panasonic to not be aware of DVXUSER would be ridiculous IMO. That being said, many of us have created threads about what we would look for in a potential AF200, and one member passed the results along to Panasonic. I'm not personally bothered by the DVX200 (other than the possible exclusion of 4:2:2 HD) I like the idea of an all in one solution. I was worried yesterday when the Panasonic rep hinted at something as "disruptive as the DVX" that if they didn't really bring the A game, people would be let down. It's just too bold a statement for what was delivered. The camera itself looks pretty awesome for what it is.

David Jimerson
04-14-2015, 02:00 PM
Jan used to read this site and report our concerns, and get a response. Is there no one to do this now?

Jan's gone, and that was more about what Jan personally did than company policy.

But Pat Lamb puts her e-mail address on every press release, so this stuff would do much more good in an e-mail to her than it will as message board posts.

philiplipetz
04-14-2015, 02:01 PM
I was worried yesterday when the Panasonic rep hinted at something as "disruptive as the DVX" that if they didn't really bring the A game, people would be let down. It's just too bold a statement for what was delivered. The camera itself looks pretty awesome for what it is.

+1

Barry_Green
04-14-2015, 02:30 PM
Great hear from you Barry. Can you find out more info on the codecs and if there is any hope of 10bit 4:2:2 in HD? Thanks.
It is April; the camera doesn't ship until October. Some things are locked in, some aren't and won't be for months.

Someone else was asking for footage. There won't be footage until probably August at the earliest! I know the Internet has sped up communication and everyone wants everything now now now, but stuff takes time. You cannot get a baby in one month just by throwing nine women at the problem...

On codecs - nobody is saying anything. My GUESS is that we are looking at the same codec engine as the HC-X1000 uses, which would mean 4K and 1080p recorded in Quicktime or MP4 wrappers at up to 150mb/sec onto UHS-3 SDXC cards. So, commodity media at decent bandwidths and NO proprietary formats! As for AVCHD, I am sure it will be an option, just like it is in the x1000, but you certainly wouldn't have to use it. I would bet money that there will be high-bandwidth 1080p options (50 & 100 mbps).

Probably 8-bit 4:2:0, as that is what the X1000 does. However, things could be different; this DVX will do 1080/120P, and the X1000 won't. So -- maybe slightly different, maybe way different, we don't know yet.

You could always get 10-bit 4:4:4 1080P from it, just record in 4K and downconvert in post.