Advice please on Konvas 2m package

[gibbie]

Greetings. Warning: complete newbie questions.

My friend and I are looking at purchasing a Konvas 2m that has been rebuilt by Slow Motion ( http://www.slowmotioninc.com/ ) and outfitted with a PL mount, which I understand to mean it will accept standard new lenses. They apparently all have academy size gates and new electronics.

My thinking is to get the camera body with some extra mags and combine that with a single zoom lens to start. Then add prime lenses as we can afford them: probably a fisheye, a 50mm, and a fixed telephoto of some sort.

My questions are: has anyone heard of Slow Motion Inc, or done business with them. The cameras LOOK really clean, compared to photos on ebay.

Also, what other considerations should I consider when asking a seller about the Konvas 2m? It has been a long long time since film school, and I have zero experience in the real world.

I have noticed talk of anamorphic lenses in relation to the Konvas cameras. My understanding is that you only need an anamorphic lens if your gate is 4:3 or 16:9, and you want the full academy aspect ratio.

They sell Elite lenses at Slow Motion, but I'm not sure what a good zoom range would be for an all in one lens. Any suggestions for a good all purpose zoom, in terms of brand and in terms of range?

I know these questions are broad, but we are serious about buying one from somewhere in the next month or so, and I'm really in the dark about almost everything.

And, yes, it would be cheaper and perhaps wiser to start with a 16mm to learn on, but we are set on a 35.

Aside from a tripod and fluid head, is there anything I'm not taking into account?

Any advice, thoughts, suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oh, the main use of the camera package will be for music videos as well as our own projects, which due to the expense, will be limited to shorts at first. Though I want to learn cinematography myself, we would definitely work with an experienced DOP.

Thanks very much for any input. I'm slowly starting to figure out our DVX100a, and my brain now has to deal with this!

Cheers! :)

[Barry_Green]

Anatoly at Slow Motion is THE MAN when it comes to the Konvas. I had him do some work on mine, he did a great job. His cameras are not inexpensive, but that's because he is probably the best-known Konvas technician out there. I would have no qualms about buying from him.

For anamorphic, you'd need an anamorphic gate. The film gates come in different sizes, and you'd need one for anamorphic before using the anamorphic lenses.

[gibbie]

Thanks Barry. Hey! I got your book ... :thumbsup:

Anyway, can you tell me (or anyone else who reads this) if I am correct about not needing the anamorphic lens? I talked to Anatolli today and he says all his 2Ms have academy gates.

I know with the DVX100a, the anamorphic lens is used to capture a widescreen image. So, I don't need this for the Konvas with the academy ratio ... ? Or do I misunderstand its purpose in this different context?

Thank-you.

[Barry_Green]

Film cameras have different potential gate apertures. There's "academy", there's "full frame", and there's "anamorphic", just to name three.

The "full frame" is also known as the Super35 frame, and it exposes the full 24x18mm frame.

The "academy" is the standard gate that comes with the camera, it's also a 4:3 frame but it's smaller as it leaves a strip on the side of the frame for the optical soundtrack. "Academy" is usually the most popular film frame format.

"Anamorphic" gates are quite different -- they're the full height, but "academy" width, so they end up with an aspect ratio of 1.2:1. Then when used with Cinema anamorphic lenses (and their 2:1 squeeze ratio) you get a final image of 2.4:1.

For 1.85, just use the regular "academy" aperture. Movie 1.85:1 widescreen isn't done with anamorphics, it's done with simple letterboxing. Konvas cameras include a goofy black rotating mask in the viewfinder that you use for framing. It's pretty hateful and I took mine out, but I should go in and mark the ground glass for 1.85:1 framing. If this is your first 35mm camera, just use the Academy gate and the 1.85:1 viewfinder mask and you'll be fine.

[gibbie]

Thanks very much. I appreciate the info.

[baquajim]

I am pretty sure those Elite lenses run at least $4000 each. I was looking into buy some for Super 16mm.

You will probably need a couple extra mags so that you can repair any that break.

Try Rafcamera.com, he is reliable.

That is all I can think of right now.

[gibbie]

Thank-you for the info, baquajim.

I'm hoping a zoom lens will cover our needs to start. I know prime lenses are going to be better, but as I said above, I hope to add lenses as we can afford to.

Any suggestions out there on what would be a good starter zoom? I know you get what you pay for, just wondering if there is a model out there that is maybe a little less expensive but still yields a respectable image. Again, this might be hard to give a definitive answer to, just looking for thoughts ... a place to start investigating.

:undecided

[taubkin]

How much does a Konvas cost from this guy? Is it any quieter than a regular one (Can they shoot sync sound?)?

From what I am seeing it is probaby expensive as hell, and if it cannot record sync, well I'd invest in other cameras...

[Barry_Green]

No Konvas is ever going to be quiet enough to shoot dialogue with. That's an impossible task. It'd take a 200-pound blimp to silence this thing. It's 55 decibels! That's twice as loud as Honda's new line of EU generators!

No way will you shoot live sound with a Konvas -- that's what the Kinor is for. Although, if you want to do the "El Mariachi" technique, of shooting the scene and then stopping the camera and recording the actors re-enacting the same take; well, the Konvas can deal with that a lot better than Rodriguez' Arri 16S; the crystal motor makes it much easier to match dialogue to picture when you use a tool like VocAlign to conform the audio.

But no, nobody'll be using a Konvas to shoot sync sound. The cheapest sync-sound 35mm camera is probably the Kinor 35H at around $7,000 but those have their share of issues, apparently faulty electronics; Anatoly fixes all that, but it costs to do so.

[gibbie]

I believe they have a range of camera packages and put them together according to your budget. I was quoted $3500 for a Konvas 2M with 3 lenses, but the lenses are "old". I was also quoted $7,000 for another Konvas 2M that included only the camera and extra mag, no lenses. So, yes, they are, or can be, expensive, depending on what you get.

I didn't get a chance to go into too much depth with him on the phone, so I can't give you too many details.

By sync sound, I assume you mean a crystal sync motor (it's been a while since film school, as I said), and I agree that that is mandatory. I understand some Konvas cameras have a governing motor, and some have crystal sync. For the price these are going for I would assume they have the latter, but will make sure.

As far as quieter, I don't know. I don't see how much you could address that issue even with a complete rebuild. However, I'm not sure there are too many other alternatives for the price. I'll give you more info as I find out.

Any zoom lens suggestions? Anybody?

Cheers.

[gibbie]

Oops. Barry must have posted while I was writing. So, there you go. Though we plan to use this thing mostly for music videos, Barry's note on the camera's loudness is something for us to think about. :undecided

[taubkin]

Okay, I get it. That's what I though.

So 3500 for that pretty Konvas all repanited with video tap and new electronics? (are you sure?!) Not a bad deal.

I don't know about shooting 35mm. With the lower cost of 16mm and the great optical blow ups I've seen, and the lower grain negatives, I would get a quiet super 16mm camera over a loud 35mm anyday. Unless I was absolutely surely specifically convinced in doing ONLY music videos.

Anyway, it's a pretty cam, that Konvas...

[gibbie]

I think for us the choice is more between the HVX200 and 35. Originally we wanted to upgrade to the HVX from our DVX (which we haven't even had that long) but lately the politics of music video selection has become apparent. Most bands still want 35. I was previously unaware of this, but apparently, in Canada at least, if you haven't shot on 35 it is extremely unlikely to be aired. Unless you are already an established band.

So, from a business point of view, offering music video clients 35 seems the wisest way to go. And I'm not against recording ambience on set and adding dialogue later. For a short, anyway.

I also would like to try the DVX for a short as well. And that is about as cheap as you can get. Some people, as you know, are doing some pretty amazing stuff with the DVX.

My thoughts.

Still hoping for suggestions on a good zoom, in case we don't get one as a package with the Konvas. :)

New electronics: yes. Video tap: I'm not sure about that. It looks like a video tap in the photos, but I could live without it, personally.

[ropbo]

I would get a quiet super 16mm camera over a loud 35mm

I'm with u on this one but ... the problem is to find a nice quiet super 16mm camera for less than 7 grand ...

[kyledroid]

The acam is under 7 grand and its super 16. It's reputed to be quiet. http://www.ikonoskop.com

[Barry_Green]

From what I remember, the Acam is supposed to be around 40db. That's not quiet. It's not as loud as the Konvas, that's for sure -- but it's not quiet. You need to be down around 27db before you can call a camera "quiet". 40db would be about 4x as loud as a 27db camera. (of course, a Konvas is still about 5x louder than the Acam!)

[taubkin]

The Eclairs seem to run at 30 dB, and if they were the french new wave icons, (the french new wave was all about recording sync sound (especially on location through the use of the Nagra) I guess it is safe to say they can record sync sound...

But as I said, if you are sure about making music videos, that konvas seems like a nice choice.

The good thinkg about shooting 35, if you have already got the costumer base, is that you can charge a LOT more!

[gibbie]

That's sort of our thinking. I'd just as soon shoot on the DVX myself, but it can't hurt to have both. Not much, anyway.

[Barry_Green]

The Eclairs are great cameras. How "loud" they are depends on how well they've been maintained, but they can range from very quiet to a low "purr". The ACL can be an excellent camera, as long as you get a 1.5 or 2 with the variable-speed motor. I of course had an ACL1 with the small motor and the English mags... and of course the motor burnt out... oh well. The NPR or the ACL1.5 or ACL2 are excellent.

[dop16mm]

for lenses look at visualproducts.com. They usually have a good selection of used lenses and can re-mount just about anything. An old angenieux zoom would probably be adequate for your needs. When finishing on video the difference between lenses is less obvious.

[dop16mm]

If you want 35mm for just short run work like music videos, rent. If the client can afford film and processing they can afford to rent a camera for a day or two, then you have the option of the latest bells and whistles or making deals on older models. As for format politics I remember looking at cmt canada's criteria about a year ago. They want origination on 35mm or 24p HD, they did not mention a specific camera, so the hvx may be viable, at least for a short period until they clue into the fact that there are low cost alternatives to cine-altas and varicams. In all honesty I would just lie, the delivery is SD beta or digi-beta. Well shot dvx can look just as good as varicam to the untrained eye and I can make 50D 16mm look better than most 35mm you see. (lie the the network, not the client) A big name act would be on the air if they shot on Hi-8, indies have to fight harder. DVX will be good enough for a band website, probably the only place it will be seen without backing of a major label.

[gibbie]

Thanks. They (visualproducts.com) seem to have some zooms for under $2,000. I'll have to look into the 24p HD as a possibility as well.

[edgebsl]

Someone experienced shooting 35mm can rent, but someone new to it cannot afford to have a client pay for learning.if you have never shot film before it would be a disaster to shoot 35mm for the first time on rented equipment on a paid project and have it botched! You need to own your own camera to learn loading and exposing for film,whether its a cheap konvas or a bolex 16mm. After you have become more experienced you can rent a nicer package for serious shoots.

For the record, a zoom lens is a compromise....you buy a cheap one you put a compromise ontop of another one.Think of primes first. I'm shopping for some now.

In my honest opinion, you master 35mm (or16 for that matter)and get some good stuff on your reel then you have a big jump on the thousands of DVX music vid directors out there for landing clients that have sizeable budgets.

dop16mm,You say you have 50d 16mm footage that looks like 35? I am new to film and have only been shooting the faster stocks.I would love to see your footage! I want to know how much of a difference 7245 over 7218 is for ex. My projects have been kinda gritty so far.

Also where do you get your film transferred?
On what machine.....a spirit,rank,ursa ?

[Barry_Green]

7245 can be quite grainless. It's a really nice stock.

And yes, you make a good point -- someone trying to learn 35, who hadn't used it before, on a rented camera in front of a client == D I S A S T E R. At the bare minimum you'd need to have a qualified AC with you who can handle the loading etc.