16mm film to match DV footage

[Bentrandom]

I was just curious if anyone here has tried this already. To start with, I own an Eclair NPR and a DVX100A.
I wanted to shoot a few sequences in an upcoming project with both cameras (DVX normal footage, Eclair slowmo). If I shoot on kodak vision2 500T film at, lets just say, a 4.0f stop what settings would I have to change on the DVX to obtain the same look? Would I need to adjust the ND filter to 1/8 or 1/64 since I'd be lighting for the film stock with the faster fps?
Subquestion: If I was shooting same speed on the DVX and Eclair (24fps) but I was using a 45 degree shutter on the Eclair would it be the same settings as the slowmotion? I know the 45 degree shutter would require opening the F stop by two stops which is roughly the same change as running at 40fps.
Any tests or notes would be helpful. Thanks.

[taubkin]

No, running a 45 degree shutter would give you more truncate movement (like more strobing), but would not result in a slow motion as good as running 40fps.

As for matching the footage, well, try your best, but you will never match the images in camera. Either get a good online telecine session (The colorist will do it for you without much difficulty), or try your best with your color correcting tools... The 7218 Negative will give you a good ammount of noise to compare with the DVX, but the noise might be very different in structure. Maybe you should shoot it cleaner and add the grain later in smoke. Well 7218 seems like a nice first try...

[Bentrandom]

No, running a 45 degree shutter would give you more truncate movement (like more strobing), but would not result in a slow motion as good as running 40fps.

I know that. The subquestion was if I was running the eclair 24fps with the 45 degree shutter, opening the fstop 2 stops (which is the same amount of stops you general open the iris when running 40fps) would it be the same setting on the DVX as when runnig slowmo on the eclair.

If 500T is to grainy, what would you suggest for 16mm film stock?

I guess I should have made the question more general, like: Has anyone used 16mm film stock and a DVX together and made the two match? And if so what film stock, 16mm camera, etc.

[discs of tron]

you don't open the iris two stops to shoot at 40fps. or at least you shouldn't, unless you want to overexpose by a stop. 24 fps to 48 fps = 1 stop. 96 fps would be a 2 stop difference.

there are various reasons why this is a challenge, not the least of which is the depth of field difference for similar angles of view. you might want to shoot the 16 stuff wider than the video.

for the grain, you really need to look for a stock with as little grain as possible. like in the 50-100 asa neighborhood. (which of course means wider aperture, bigger depth of field difference, etc.) alternately, you could add fake grain to the dvx footage. or you could just embrace the difference, shoot the 500 film, and not worry about it.

[Bentrandom]

I generally open up my iris 1&1/2 to 2 stops when shooting 40fps just because of the way my zoom lense is. It something I tested when I first got the Eclair. I obviously don't clarify enough, sorry my bad.

I was planning to shoot the 16mm footage wide or from a completely seperate angle than all the DVX footage. Also, most of the project takes place at night, thus the 500T stock.

Has anyone mixed the two? Is it jarring at all to see the difference in grains or not?

If nobody has done it I can just run the test myself and possibly post the results.

[taubkin]

Sorry bentrandom, I didn't understand. I was wondering that should not make sense for a question coming from someone who OWN a NPR... :)

But I still don't understand you now. You mean, you want to change the shutter angle so you can match sensitivity with the film camera and DVX hence use the same appertures? I don't get what setting you are talking about in the DVX...

Sorry I wasn't clear. I think the 7218 will give you a grain ammount close to the DVX's. But if the grain structure show up too clearly, they will be very different, that is why maybe you could use a cleaner stock and add grain digitally to your film footage.

I have not done it and I surely would be glad to see your tests (always test, BTW).

Barry Green has done some side-by-side's in his DVD, I think using Fuji Reala 500 or 250 (Both very grainy). The images were very close, but the film images were more grainy. Kodak 500T is cleaner though...

Good Luck!

[watson]

this weekend i'm shooting a music video on the DVX. I'll be shooting a few slow motion shoots (hopefully) on super 16mm. I'm interested myself to see how the two formats mix. It probably wont be til end of next week or the following week i'll have the footage back but i'll post it here.

[mediamilitia]

On my website I have some DVX and s16mm mixed. Check out the score series stuff under the action sports demo page. Slo mo = 16mm, normal = DVX. We messed with the footage in telecine because we wanted the 16mm to have a different look than the DVX. It might not be the best compairison, but I think they still go quite nice together dispite the different looks. http://www.mediamilitia.tv/actionsports.htm

[avr]

On my website I have some DVX and s16mm mixed. Check out the score series stuff under the action sports demo page. Slo mo = 16mm, normal = DVX. We messed with the footage in telecine because we wanted the 16mm to have a different look than the DVX. It might not be the best compairison, but I think they still go quite nice together dispite the different looks. http://www.mediamilitia.tv/actionsports.htm

Hey nice images, what S 16 mm. camera you used in these videos? what film?

thanks

[Bentrandom]

Mediamilitia~
Sweet videos! Beyond the color balance between the S16 and DVX they looked really good next to each other. I probably wouldn't have guessed it was film to minidv unless you said so. Is there any chance you could post uncompressed stills of both types of footage? I'd like to see them side by side without compression.

This pretty much answers my question though, thanks! I'm going to test some different film stocks but I'm for sure moving ahead with using both 16mm and DVX on the next project I do.

[mediamilitia]

The camera was an Aaton LTR s16 with a Cooke zoom. The filmstock I used was 7246 250D and 7285 100D Reversal. I definitely will mix the footage again if the production calls for it. I especially can't wait to mix s16 with the HVX. Just remember the key to the mix is color correction. Good Luck.