I'm buying 13 HDV cameras, advice please

[Andy Platts]

I'm just about to buy 13 HDV cameras! I've looked as much info on the Sony and the JVC as I can but I can't get any definitive info of the relative pros and cons of the two options. Can ayone point to some info that does a direct comparison of them both?

Has anyone actually used the JVC in anger as it were.

BTW I should be getting hold of a demo camera to take away and evaluate on Monday.

Ta

[mmm]

I would definitely test the cameras yourself! If you are buying 13 of them, the reps will be quite happy about letting you play.

What do you need the cameras for? It kinda depends on that. I am yet to see comparisons between the 2 as the production HD100 has only been around a few days!

[Andy Platts]

We buying them for a film & TV production degree for students to use in a variety of applications inc News, Documentary & short film mainly short film though. So I guess we are looking at a solution that can cover all these areas.
We are definitely going to test the Sony and the JVC side by side (I have the Sony now and a JVC prob Monday). In terms of first impressions though the JVC is looking favourite as seems to be much more of a "proper camera" with fewer fiddly buttons and menus for the students to mess with and get lost in.

[mezelf27]

I'd go for the JVC, as it is a professional camcorder, with its typical lay-out. The Sony ultimately is a prosumer-model...

[mmm]

hmm... I would say JVC too, but that is only from on paper specs! I haven't held a production model yet.

The JVC is a more "professional" camera and will get the students into good "pro" habits, like manual focusing. It's 720p mode is also well suited to fictional drama. However, the Sony has the edge for News and some documentary because it can shoot interlaced video, that looks like "video" is supposed to.

I would say get 6 of one and half a (baker's) dozen of the other, however, that will lead to a lot of compatibility issues. The advantage of that is the students will have to learn to overcome those problems... but then again, I am sure many will just get confused and detered by it.

Overall, I would go JVC if it turns out to be good, because it appears better suited to fictional drama (your priority) and can still shoot interlaced SD DV footage for your News crews. If they want HD, they would have to use "motion smoothing."

[mezelf27]

Interestiong point also: since the JVC is part of the professional line, rather then the consumer line, you might get better service for your camcorders.

Of course mmm is right: it remains to be seen, the quality of the hd100 is still a guess, but I really don't think we can expect real flaws there. Neither Sony, Panasonic or JVC ever brought out a € 6000 camcorder that was totally crap.

Only thing I don't get: 13x the sony and 13x the JVC is a whole different price-label. The JVC is rather more expensive... and multiply that by 13....

Another option that might be interesting for video-education: The JVC will be the easiest to modify (Anton/Bauer or V-mount battery adapters, wide angle lenses, ...)

[Andy Platts]

The general consenus at the moment then is really what my gut feeling is; that is the JVC has the edge in terms of the basic design at least and any quality issues in terms of the footage created are somewhat (?) marginal. This is quite important I feel as With students I've found it's really striking a balance between the creative art of the practice and encouraging a deeper technical understanding that enables that creativity to be realised in a non-scary way.

As far as the price goes we have managed to get the JVC quote to the same as the Sony. This also goes for the 13 decks we also by buying for each edit suite. I hope we can get them in time the students arrive back at the end of September!

[mezelf27]

Well, if you can get the JVCs at the same price as the sonys, the deal would be done for me... :-)

[Flintstone]

A thing to note, the JVC deck has an advantage over the Sony deck. It can use large DV/HDV tapes. Something Sony completely dropped the ball on.

[Andy Platts]

good point. I'll post some info if we the camera for demo on Monday.

[ChuckS]

If this is for educational purposes why do you need to go with one particular HDV model? Each of these cameras where designed for different purposes therefore each can offer a different experience. The Sony might work better for teaching TV (run-n-gun) production with a video postproduction workflow, the JVC might be a good cross between film production with video postproduction and the Panasonic (although not an HDV camera) would better expose your students to both the film production and postproduction methodology.

Just a thought

[Gibby]

Andy,

For the application you describe, my recommendation would be the HD100s. I own a Z1 and I handled the HD100s at NAB. The Z1 is an excellent camera, with many applications. But for teaching TV/video production students about the many aspects of production, the HD100 would provide you a lot more instruction areas, largely because of it having pro-style removeable lenses, and a professional form factor that largely mirrors that of higher-end cameras. It also has the basic ergonomics and features of most other professional cameras they may eventually use. In my role as a member of the Board of Governors of NATAS-Pacific Southwest, I donate mentor time to the colleges and universities in my region. I tell the students and faculty the same thing: fixed-lens camcorders are awesome for many applications, I use them extensively for my TV shows when possible, but at some point the students need to learn about the functions and features of the removeable lens form factor if they expect to work professionally in the television and high-end video business. Ideally you would be able to buy some HD100s and some Z1s - but as has been pointed out, compatability of decks, etc, makes that a problem.

To make it in the real world of television, indie films, and high-end video, your students will need to be equal parts artist, techie, manager, and journalist. Understanding the tech end of camera types, their use, their capabilities, and applications, will be a crucial part of the artist and techie end of their professional lives. It's an ongoing process. Throughout their careers they will need to be voracious readers of tech chat boards, trade web sites, and trade magazines to have any hope of keeping up with everyone else in this highly-competitive industry.

Good luck with your students! Teach them tech - but also teach them real world techniques...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

[Andy Platts]

I would certainly agree with you on that even just looking at the material available the JVC is much more involving in an educational context rather the Sony with it's "opportunities" to let the camera do a lot of the work (auto focus etc).

I feel it's much better for students to learn the basics of camera operation on what is effectively a fully manual camera and then transfer that knowledge accross to operating a camera like the Sony. The JVC demands more of the operator and you have to deal with the technology and to use it effectively you have understand it in a differnet way than perhaps with the Sony.

In reference to idea of having a mixed resource of Sony & JVC we have previous found to our cost that having effectively (?) two formats becomes logisticly very dificult to manage in what is effectivelly a large production company involved in making on average 15 and at peak time 30 productions a week. We need to have the flexibilty to pool all the kit and there is a certain degree of standardisation across the resources we have to maximise the amount of production we do.

[ChuckS]

Compatability is an integral part of a producers education, whether they learn it in school or on the job. Video production can be quite different from Film production and I agree that with its manual controls the JVC is more "professional" than the Sony and would probably be better to teach cinematography. However, depending how comprehensive your training is there are a lot of intangibles that your students will have to learn that has little to do with the camera at all.

Of coarse, I have no idea what you are trying to teach your students. Also, yes picking a single vender/format can simplify your workflow, but it also becomes a single point of failure. I have seen more than a few computer graphics schools fail when they could not get support for the platform or application of choice. If you choose all the same camera's and for any reason that camera or format is not widely accepted your program might become an island.

[Andy Platts]

I think it's a given that there is more to a creative process than knowing how to focus and white balance.

In so far as becoming an Island I think we are acutely aware of this fact as we have been in possession of 6 JVC D9 camera kits and decks for the last 6 years or so. Great format 4:2:2, but expensive to maintain and resource but my predessors could also have gone the DVCAM/DV route thats the benefit of hindsight of course.

The secret I think is creativity within parameters either professional; budgetry or within a given or imposed timescale and dealing with whatever you have.

Cruicially technology should liberate creatvity but has the habit if not carefully chosen of getting in the way and sometimes offering more than it can actually deliver (Matrox RT2000).

[stephenlnoe]

It would be nice to split up the order on 2 or 3 models.

[mezelf27]

I don't know. the JVC ProHD line for now, and eventually you might want to go from there in the future....

As you can remember the succes-story of the JVC GY-DV500 and DV700 (THE bbc darling), you might want to take this gamble and - in time - expand the scale to newly available technology and upgrades that JVC will undoubtetly will incorporate in a big ProHD-line (with obvious backwards compatibility.

720p is the consensus for Europe, HDV is the standard for Sony and JVC (2 of the 3 professional-video-and-broadcast-"players" - you can't count Ikegami bussiness-wise), it's a traditional and proven design, ...

I think going for the JVC is quite safe - even though it might be early days for HD(V) (especially in europe). Anyhow: if HD(V) doesn't work out: it will still be a hell of a cam in SD (bit pricy probably, compared to 1/2 inch cams, but still, you pay for extra comfort: less weight, more compact, more portability)

[mmm]

It would be nice to split up the order on 2 or 3 models.

It is a shame that the formats aren't more compatible, like DV is.

After capture, the majority of your workflow should now be entirely non-linear, which makes things easier. It is also important that students are prepared for a tapeless future, IMO.

[mezelf27]

Indeed, it's quite easy to use the HDD with the hd100