16 mm camera

[avr]

I always have been a video guy but I love the film cameras and i am thinking to purchase a 16 mm. camera. I like the Arri, Bolex ...

i would like to shoot a shor film in 16 mm. but I don´t know if is more expensive this. Someone knows the cost of the film+transfer to a digital tape (DV-Dvcam)?
what camera is a good choice (medium cost... Arri, Bolex..?

I´m missing with this but I´m sure that in this forum there are a lot of people that can learn me and to avoid mistakes.
Thanks a lot

[Dyrseve989]

Are you looking for syncsound cameras?, quiet cameras? Powered cameras? winding cameras?

You can check out normal rates of film and transfer(just remmber 50ft of film at 24fps, is about 2 1/2 min) www.a1filmlab.com

Get back to me on what type of camera, or what type of short you plan n making, and I'll make some suggestions

-Matt-

[bokser]

I own and used an arri 16BL on 2 shorts...
it is a loud ass camera...
but problems can be avoided with carefull planning and some leather (over the camera).

it shoots only 24fps... no variable as some film cameras have
also it is not an exact 24fps... since the motor isn't cystal synced (runs around $800 bucks for that motor to get exact 24fps)
but usually the sound drifts off a bit and I just correct it in post...

I'm right now editing one of the shorts shot with it, but it wont be available to see for a while... if your in no rush check out www.bokserfilms.com in a few months and you can see some images from it.

its a big camera and not easy to hand hold (like 22 lbs.), but for a $3k 16mm camera its worth the trouble.

I found mine on ebay... and I would recommend it...
but it needs servicing to keep it in tip top shape.

as far as costs for film and development

get a student id card... go to kodak and buy film for like 20% off (at least in NY)
then develop and bring your student card as well... get 10-20% off.
10 minutes of film is approx 120 to 130 bucks using vision2 from kodak
I forget the developing costs... but all you have to tell them is to transfer from the negative directly to miniDV... I believe most places only do to mini DVCAM tapes if asked... so you need a deck to be able to play them... or convert them to mini DV

hope that helps... or confuses you further :)

[discs of tron]

the cheapest sync-sound camera you'll probably find would be the cinema products cp16. they're a bit of a pain in the ass but they're totally functional.

[blckhawk542]

get a student id card...


Where you gonna get a student ID card? dont you have to be part of like a film school to get one?

[avr]

thanks a lot for the replies.
well i think that I don´t need a syncsound camera, the audio was recorded into a minidisc or a CF recorder.
The kind of the short film that i want.... ummm, I have a lot of projects but i am thinking in a terror-suspense by night... but i´m not sure. i´m looking for a specific look for this short film and I want to learn with a film camera.

thanks again

[Barry_Green]

I don't think you understand what a sync-sound camera is. No film camera records sound. (and yes, that's an exaggeration, and no, we don't need to talk about Auricons, I'm talking about the practical state of the industry today).

You never record sound on the film. The sound always gets recorded on some other medium (whether Nagra or DAT or even on a videocamera). But a "sync-sound" camera is one that has two distinct features:
1) a crystal-controlled or AC synchronous motor, to provide precise running speed control
2) quiet.

Non-sync cameras aren't precisely speed-controlled, and can be extremely noisy -- EXTREMELY. Sync cameras like the CP16, Arri 16BL, Eclair etc. are much, much quieter. You can usually still hear them, but it's a tiny purr, vs. the sewing-machine growl of a Bolex or Krasnogorsk or Beaulieu.

So if you intend to record any audio at all, you want a sync camera.

[discs of tron]

but if you want to be reminded of the greatness that can be achieved with mos cams, watch any sergio leone western, any of the old disney nature doc-dramas (gentle ben, etc,) or, as everyone is quick to point out, el mariachi. plenty of others are out there. if your horror thing is light on dialogue (or you can shoot the reverse angle whenever anyone talks, like leone,) and most of the effects can be foley'd in (which for any horror flick should be true,) a hand-wound mos cam should be fine. and the bolex will probably outlive every dvx in existence.

[Dyrseve989]

As stated above - and from my own experience(and stubborness) NEVER FILM WITH A NON-SYNC SOUND CAMERA!!!!!!! - You will drive to yourself to the nut house after the first 100' of film

-Matt-

[Dyrseve989]

^(correction) NEVER FILM A SOUND FILM WITH A NON-SYNC SOUND CAMERA!!!!!!! - (big difference)

[Barry_Green]

Right.

Things can be done, as always, but why set yourself up for so much pain and aggravation when you don't have to? You can experiment with blimps and whatnot, but it's just so much wasted energy, vs. doing it "right" (i.e., getting a cheap silent camera like a CP, or even an Auricon).

[avr]

OK, I understand, sorry my ignorance.
Thanks Barry.

[dop16mm]

I don't have a link but look for the "Hairy Knuckles" series of short films or "Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter" for what can be done none sync with a bolex. All sound is post dubbed and is kind of like a cheesy spaghetti western, but it works. The director was able to maintain a very tight shooting ratio and fast shooting when not worrying about perfect sound and diologue on location, same for El Mariachi. Yes straight up hollywood style should be sync, but if you can make the style work then go for it. Telling your cast and crew that it cost's $50 a minute is a good motivator to get things right on the first take. Rehearse, rehearse.

[Rosestar]

but if you want to be reminded of the greatness that can be achieved with mos cams, watch any sergio leone western, any of the old disney nature doc-dramas (gentle ben, etc,) or, as everyone is quick to point out, el mariachi. plenty of others are out there. if your horror thing is light on dialogue (or you can shoot the reverse angle whenever anyone talks, like leone,) and most of the effects can be foley'd in (which for any horror flick should be true,) a hand-wound mos cam should be fine. and the bolex will probably outlive every dvx in existence.

Reminds me of the story of how Stanley Kubrick made his first film. He shot "Fear and Desire" with a Mitchell Standard (mos) and got the film in the can for $9000. He had to spend another $30,000 to put together a sound track.

Barry is right, don't waste the energy. Do it right.

[bikefilms]

I think having a sync-sound cam is a luxury; any loud- as- hell Bolex will do. Just wear ear muffs:)

Has anyone shot a full mos film on the DVX?

[Dyrseve989]

Why is filming without sound called MOS? Would anybody like a little history lesson?

[khmuse]

There are many, many, many stories as to where the term MOS came from. One of the ones that I like best is that it was from some of the early German directors, they would say "With Out Sound" but it tended to sound like "Mit Out Sound" so it became MOS. As I said, there are other stories, but I kinda like this one best.

[discs of tron]

yeah the "mit out sound" story is the one i've always heard.

[Rosestar]

I think having a sync-sound cam is a luxury; any loud- as- hell Bolex will do. Just wear ear muffs:)

Has anyone shot a full mos film on the DVX?

You'd better have your audience wear earmuffs. :laugh:

[cannes1979]

I myself own a C.P. GSMO. They are very rare to find, but they are almost (again I say almost) as small as an Aaton A-Minima, hold 400' of film, are decently quiet, can shoot up to 64fps, are Super 16 convertible, and use co-axial magazines. But if you can't find one of those, the old C.P. 16R's are still very good cameras and are also pretty quiet.

[Mike Parker]

I've owned three CP-16's over the years: a CP-16/A plus two CP-16R's. My last one, purchased from Derrick Whitehouse at Whitehouse AV, was a beauty. It was the latest version with the 170 degree shutter, Angenieux 10-150, orientable VF, power zoom and built-in light meter. I bought it in 1995 with some of the proceeds from covering the first OJ Simpson trial.

The film shot with it looked wonderful but I was never able to make any money with it since none of my clients wanted to pay the cost of film, processing, sound syncing, etc. I eventually sold the camera back to Derrick and it ended up somewhere in the South Pacific.

CP-16R's have a few drawbacks. First, you don't thread them, you stuff them. The movement dates back to the days of Auricons where you shot single-system with mag stripe film. Mag stripe has been out of production for at least 20 years, so single-system is no longer an option, and even if it were, the audio quality left much to be desired. It was okay for news and docs, but that was pretty much it. Another problem is lack of video assist. Video assist devices for the CP are few and far between and only B&W at that. Finally, parts --- especially some of the integrated circuits --- are becoming scarce. Remember, we're talking about a camera that was engineered over thirty years ago.

That said, the cameras are generally pretty much bullet proof. During my early days of shooting local news with CP's I was averaging about 1,000 feet of film a day, five days a week. Like a Timex, they took a licking and kept on ticking.

Would I trade my DVX100a for one today. Absolutely not. The DVX is MUCH cheaper to run, probably even more reliable and you don't have to deal with film, processing and all that stuff. And, honestly, the DVX video at 24p --- to my eyes, at least --- looks better.

Mike Parker
www.mp-tv.com

[reflex]

I think having a sync-sound cam is a luxury; any loud- as- hell Bolex will do. Just wear ear muffs:)


Yeah. You wimps. :grin: What's wrong with doing it the hard way? :evil:


:beer:

[Pipe]

I've owned a couple of Eclair acl's. Great camera quiet sync sound 200 or 400 foot magazines. The a minima pre rolled film slots straight in their. They're still around and you can build the kit up slowly. Get yourself a body, viewfinder 2 magazines a 12-120 lens and you can start filming. You can make the batteries for these yourself for about £12. From here you can build up. There are plenty of websites to share info on this camera. Sometines you can find these and arri's on ebay.de the german ebay, they seem to be a bit cheaper.

[Shiloh Arts]

Now let me ask you guys...since were on the topic of quiet sync sound cameras, What do you think of the older S16mm Aatons?

[profnoxin]

MOS while commonly (and more amusingly) thought to be Mit Out Sound actually stands for "Minus Optical Strip" from when recording was set using pilot tone out of the camera to a Nagra recorder or the like. I own a 16BolexPro, possibly the most rare 16mm sync sound camera, other than the Mitchell M1. It's great, fairly quiet. If you can ever find one, they are amazing and typically cheap. They have rock steady registration, built in handles with force focus/zoom control, long throat co-axial mags, and, the best part, they are self loading. You load up one side in the tent, take it out, put the mag on the back of the camera, turn a switch, and the camera pulls the film through all of the rollers, and automatically loads it up on the take up side. It's a thing of beauty, and perfect for documentary work, when the D.P. often has to operate as a one man band. Check on www.visualproducts.com I got mine there for the same price as a regular Bolex (which is ridiculous) because they didn't know what it was. Their loss. If you ever find one, they can be services by Steve's Cine Services in Vancouver.

[David G. Smith]

Wow, Pilot Tone! That is something I haven't heard in a long time. Kids these days got it so easy. Remeber when we kids. Had to walk 10miles, barefoot, through the snow, up-hill both ways, to the lab just to get our film processed. Oh the good old days. :grin:

[kplo]

profnoxin,
The term "MOS" has been used since the '30s, LONG before pilot tone was developed.

The Bolex Pro was a very interseting camera, it just couldn't compete with the entrenched Eclair and emerging ArriSR market at the time. The "auto threading" feature was also a bit more of a pain than the simpler "snap-off, snap-on" Eclair style mags. I think Dieter at Procam in AZ also services these. The way Bolex built stuff, that baby will probably outlast several owners.
Ken

[David G. Smith]

Shoot, the way Bolex built stuff, they will be here with the cockroaches and twinkies after they drop the big one.

[Erik Olson]

profnoxin,

Sorry ol' boy, it was Erich von Stroheim, the over-the-top Austrian helmsman of the 10-hour masterpiece, Greed, who brought us the stereotypical megaphone wielding, monacled, clad in beret and pantaloon image of The Director as we know it today.

Mr. von Stroheim was - or claimed to be - a count, who, after working under the likes of D.W. Griffith, came into his own with Blind Husbands for Universal Pictures.

His penchant for creating 32-reel pictures (about five hours) earned him a dismissal by chairman Irving Thalberg, and a contract at Goldwyn's studios, where Greed was conceived.

All of this happened in the 1920's prior to the invention of sound. It wasn't until Walking Down Broadway - von Stroheim's last picture as a director in 1932 - that he yelled the words... "mit out sprechen!" as the cameras started to roll.

http://www.campuscircle.net/projections/Stroheim.jpg


Technicolor's Definition of MOS (http://www.technicolor.com/Cultures/En-Us/Support/Encyclopedia/M/MOS.htm)

imdb and MOS (http://www.imdb.com/Glossary/M)

e

[esperman]

^(correction) NEVER FILM A SOUND FILM WITH A NON-SYNC SOUND CAMERA!!!!!!! - (big difference)

Oh, I AGREE! You can't beat them...and they tend to be quiet!

BUT...I had a Bolex EBM camera...it was really great. It was loud as hell..BUT I did shoot alot of sync films...the barney we made looked like something from old doctor who shows.

If your limited on budget...look at the Bolex's...check out this link: http://www.chamblesscineequip.com/Default.htm

Good people and a good idea of prices.

[esperman]

profnoxin,



All of this happened in the 1920's prior to the invention of sound. It wasn't until Walking Down Broadway - von Stroheim's last picture as a director in 1932 - that he yelled the words... "mit out sprechen!" as the cameras started to roll.

http://www.campuscircle.net/projections/Stroheim.jpg


Technicolor's Definition of MOS (http://www.technicolor.com/Cultures/En-Us/Support/Encyclopedia/M/MOS.htm)

imdb and MOS (http://www.imdb.com/Glossary/M)

e

A man who knows his facts :thumbsup:

[ICED OUT!]

the cp-16 is a good camera, but it is a complete tank!
Victor Duncan (Company) in Dallas Texas can service and get you parts or batteries for this camera-

[garyhee]

Dear Barry_Green :
Are there three kinds of DVX? The DVX100,DVX100A and DVX100B?
The DVX100A be called DVC180A in China,But it has no 24P mode,just only 25P,
Is that different?Could you tell me that how much is the DVX100A in the US.
Thanks a lot.

[Barry_Green]

Yes there were three different models, the DVX100, DVX100A and DVX100B.

There was also a short-lived interlace-only camera called the DVC80, which I am guessing was also known as the DVC180 in China.

The DVX100A is discontinued and is no longer available in the US, unless you happen to find a dealer with old stock on hand. A DVX100B goes for around $3500 US.