Scoring expired film? Short ends?

[monte]

I was looking around for cheaper film (usually when I heard cheap film it was in conjunction with expired/short end film) and was able to find short ends - they were about half as much.

What I'm curious about is, whats the deal with short ends, what is it about them that makes them so much cheaper? I'm assuming expired film just looks wierd or isn't very reliable? I just want to screw around with 16mm a little bit so I was curious about like how much stock I could afford to casually shoot with.

For example - 400 feet of film, that would be enough for four minutes to sort of get familiar with the camera and whatnot - correct? Is there anything different about short ends which would contradict this theory?

Thanks

[thisiswells]

A lot of that you can found out from others or self study (Google) if you're so inclined.
Expired film is usually okay unless it's really old. NEVER buy film off eBay. And, NEVER buy film without a solid game plan for getting it processed. Many dishonest eBayers are selling film to newbies for processes that are no longer offered. In other words, maybe you can expose it, but perhaps it's so outdated, the labs no longer carry the right supplies for processing for it. Some newbies get really screwed over in deals like this. Fortunately, their pictures probably would have looked awful anyways.

That said, there are many reputable stores which sell re-cans and short ends. Definitions for those terms can be found most anywhere online...

[monte]

Thanks for the info wells. You made my day. Care for a walnut fudge pie? I made it myself - a young business contractor showed me how.

Anywho - thanks I'll try and see what I can scrounge up, it just seemed that filmemporium.com wasn't selling any "expired" stock so I was just looking for references maybe you have had that you know give good stuff or whatnot. Anywho thanks alot

[thisiswells]

HaHa. yeah, I'm a pretty young guy myself and I'm interested in film, too. My firsthand experience has been as a camera department intern on some very significant shoots in S16 and 35 over the past couple of years. I will tell you this, some very big shoots are being shot on expired film without any problems. The real consideration is mostly the source of the film and the storage conditions. In my mentors case, his film came from the manufacturer expired, and he scored 200,000 feet of it in 2003 and another 70,000 feet in 2004. I can't tell you from which manufacturer it came from, though...

Most of the time it's when a company is transitioning to a new series of film stocks (going from Vision to Vision 2, for example) that they practically give the old stuff away. A lot of it is to students or film departments or sometimes even really high volume clients. For certain brands, it is just as good for another couple years from the "expired" date. This is why sometimes people refer to the date jokingly as, "Kodak expired."

I've never ordered film, so I don't know what to tell you. FilmEmporium sounds reliable...

[monte]

Ahhhh!

I gotcha, hehe! By the way I must appologize, I was confusing 16 mm (4 minutes = about 150 feet) versus 35mm (almost 400 feet) ...

I always get those little logistical things criss crossed. Anyways - I guess I'll check with Kodak on that then and see if theres any glimmer of hope for getting some dirt cheap expired stuff. We'll see what happens. If not I guess I'll just grab some stuff from a local place here, rather than going on the internet. The guys will probably be able to facilitate my needs better and whatnot.

[Gary_McClurg]

If you get the stuff free.

Most labs will do a snip test for you. They cut off a few feet of film and then test it to see if it'd hold up in the soup (the chemicals), etc.

[PrestonH]

monte, I sent you a PM.

[Barry_Green]

"short ends" are, theoretically, new film that someone shot a roll of, but didn't finish the roll. So they snip off the exposed part (ostensibly in a sealed lightproof film tent) and then the remaining unused film gets sold to someplace like Film Emporium or Dr. Rawstock or someplace like that.

Short Ends are short loads -- Medium Ends are longer, and Long Ends are longer still. For 16mm, if someone snipped off and sent in 300' of a 400' load, that'd be considered a "long end".

Short Ends can be okay, and are certainly by far the cheapest "new" film stock you'll ever find, but that's because there are risks. You don't know how the film was treated, what temperatures it was stored under, whether it was loaded by a competent loader in a light-tight tent, whether it was unloaded properly, whether it's been x-rayed, etc. In short (not to pun) you *must* get any short ends snip-tested before you use 'em.

35mm short ends are reasonably plentiful, as television shows will have a lot of leftover short ends. 16mm short ends are quite rare.

"Recans" are loads of film that were loaded in the camera, but never used. So ostensibly they should be "good as new", excepting the risk factors mentioned above. Recans are full loads, vs. short loads/ends.

[jonwolf]

www.filmemporium.com

[dop16mm]

properly stored, frozen for long term, fridge for short term, film can be viable for a remarkably long time. I have used negative over 5 years old with no problems. In fact I have a batch of reversal that is over 30 years old that can still capture a surprisingly good image, it is a bit blue biased but quite sharp considering. The trick with really old stuff is getting it developed. Very few labs are set up to run reversal, and the current process is different from the old. I was dealing with a lab the would run the vintage stock about once a month, I'm not sure if they still do it anymore. You should be safe with negative less than ten years old if you know it has been stored frozen. When you want to use it treat it like a turkey and defrost for about a day. Make sure the can is dry before putting in the changing bag. When ordering new film if not using right away put it in the freezer.

[Bruce Morgan]

I was looking around for cheaper film (usually when I heard cheap film it was in conjunction with expired/short end film) and was able to find short ends - they were about half as much.

What I'm curious about is, whats the deal with short ends, what is it about them that makes them so much cheaper? I'm assuming expired film just looks wierd or isn't very reliable? I just want to screw around with 16mm a little bit so I was curious about like how much stock I could afford to casually shoot with.

For example - 400 feet of film, that would be enough for four minutes to sort of get familiar with the camera and whatnot - correct? Is there anything different about short ends which would contradict this theory?

Thanks
:thumbsup:
Shorts ends notes
1)The first thing on age film to change with age is the blue layer..
Film is a tripack emulsion.The blue layer is on top .So what does this mean ? .
I was told by a lab tech at agfa long ago that caucasian actors start looking very ruddy regardless of make up .
2)The emulsion number if available on the outside of the can will allow you to be informed when you call Kodak or fuji and they used to tell me to the month the date of the film..this will help you determine an idea of the fog level .After development the latent edge number include a series of circles triangels ets when you call off these symbols to the manufacture reps at kodak they give you a date when the raw stock was made .
But as the other posts in this thread indicate .
Nothing is better than buying film(short ends ) from reputable people who can call off the densitometer readings on the phone or quote them in an email.two which i know off one rawstock house is in losangeles and one in new york .i dont know if refrences to companies is allowed on this web site .

call kodak to see what those numbers should be for red blue and green and or an over all fog level reading .
Then the condition of storeage while this film was a short end!!!
where was it stored ?
and at what temprature ?
Or was it in the trunk of a car in the desert by the side of the road ?
.Or was it in a refrigerator .?
did it go through customs and get extrayed which shows and actual image on the film!!!?????
Physical trauma to film also shows up as something called a pressure exposure .
You can sucessfully buy and shot with short ends .
You must know the preformance level of the aged film and know how well you need to or expect to hold the deep black or dmax of the resuling finished film product which goes into your intended venue .
Best wishes on your film venture .
Bruce

[mediamilitia]

Shoot a crazy music video with it!