red rock mini35 on 35mm

[smelni]

Anyone have any ideas how well the red rock micro mini35 adapter footage will stand up to 35mm blowups? Has anyone used the unit to shoot a feature or short and then blow it up to see if the softness or the ground glass causes any problems?

thanks
s

[Barry_Green]

No, but I've blown up genuine mini35 footage before. It definitely has an impact on the clarity of the footage, but not *that* much. I was actually surprised by how well it held up. Even so, I think it crossed the line from "good enough" to "maybe not good enough"... it will be interesting to see how the G35 and the micro35 perform in the same circumstances, and most especially when employed on an HVX or HD100.

[BLUESPIDER]

Barry is right! I made the mistake of one time applying a diffused filter to one of my clips. It looked great on TV but when we saw it on 35mm, it looked like it was out of focused. It was horrible. I've learned my lesson. Shoot it as sharp as you can and stay away from anything thats going to soften up your footage. The mirco35 is great for TV applications.

[smelni]

I am prepping for a feature film which all takes place in very tight spaces. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that i should use the micro35 to help get a bit of shallow DOF in those tight spaces. However, we are "definitely" planning on doing a blowup to 35mm. Based on what you are saying I am questioning my decision. Are you saying that it would be better to keep the image as sharp as possible, forgoe the control over shallow DOF - and shoot this without the micro35?

[seejay1031]

If the most important version of the film you are shooting is going to be a 35mm blowup, then yes, probably you shouldn't shoot with the adaptor, as sharp as possible is the best way to go. But it's my belief that lense choice is the 2nd greatest asthetic choice available to a director (behind only lighting). Because of your desire to use the Micro35 I can only assume you consider shallow DOF intregal to the story. This will be very difficult to achieve in tight spaces with the DVX. This in mind I have 2 points to make.

1. A transfer to 35mm costs upwards of... well... alot. I have no idea of exact figures as it is so outside the realm of an idependent filmmaker. Almost all indies that are "definitely" planning to blowup to 35mm are also "definitely" planning on selling the film to a distributer who they assume will blow it up. They will not unless they actually release it for theatrical release- ask some indies on this site how often their films get bought for theatrical distribution.

2. Even if your film is blown up to 35mm, is that really the most important display of it? Won't the thousands and thousands of DVD copies going out be much more important? That is where 99% of independent films shot on video is seen now anyways.

Of course you could shoot on 16mm, get some of the the DOF and a better blowup to boot. Unless your working with non actors- then video is the only choice for Low budget.

-Chris

PS if you decide to go with deep DOF and no adaptor check out some of Won Kar Wai's films (especially Fallen Angels). He uses wide angle lenses to amazing effect- which would be ideal in your tight spaces.

[smelni]

Good points Chris - thanks

- DOF is not so much integral to the story - its more about being able to create interesting shots in very tight locations. Obviously there are other ways to go about this.

- We have the blow up costs in our budget and yes it is a lot of money

- Great point about the DVDs. However, if the quality is not fit for 35mm then the unlikely theatrical distribution will have yet another odd against it.

I just ordered that film :)

thanks again

[slimjimmed]

What if you planned on having it digitally projected for festivals, though?

[smelni]

There is some clout to having it projected on 35mm. In addition, if we plan for digital projection and then it gets picked up - we dont want it to look worse on 35mm after transfer.

[seejay1031]

Well since 35mm blowup is your final product have you considered Andromeda or other higher rez process (Maybe hi-def)? I guess the part I'm having trouble with is that the DVX isn't ideal for 35mm blowups even at its sharpest- Did you choose this camera specifically for how it looks blown up? It just seems an interesting choice for a project thats budgeted so high (in indie terms). What is the subject, genre? I am genuinely interested in the preproduction decisions of an indie feature.

Also I hope you like the movie, its one of my favorites.

[Aaron Koolen]

I have little experience in filmmaking but it seems if you can afford a blow up to 35mm, then couldn't you rent a HD cam (Varicam or such) of some sort, or is ALL your cash going into the blow up?

Aaron

[PANA-MAN]

Hey

Try and find some articles on how they shot the film "November" that is about to be theatrically released on July 22nd. They used the DVX100A, transfered to 35mm, and word is it looks amazing.
Not sure what they used in terms of adapters, lenses, etc.
Bottom line is find out what their set up was and adapt it to your needs.
:grin:

[slimjimmed]

They captured with a rig that had clean data with NO compression.

[GlassSidewalk]

I just saw a 35 print of "November" screened at the DGA for the LA Film Festival. I was thoroughly impressed. I don't know much about there process, but it sets the bar for what you can do with a DVX. I know many people have seen it projected digitally, but few have seen a 35 print of it and it held up very well. There were a few shots that stuck out, nothing 99 percent of the audience going US would notice. If I were you I'd learn everything you can about what they did.

[blckhawk542]

Heres and article i found on the movie itself...thers trailers underneath the article..

http://movies.about.com/od/november/a/november061705.htm

[smelni]

Thanks all for your advice - very helpful.

A lot of you are wondering why, if we intend ending up on 35mm, are we not shooting on film.

As you all know, decisions are rarely that straightforward. We have expertise with the dvx - we do not with the film process. We have free access to a DVX - nto a film camera. In addition, while cost is similar but upfront with film - you are not afforded the same ability to "play" and find the surprise takes with the high cost of film. This "play" will be critical to our film. In addition we will be working in very tight spaces - the physical size of the camera "might" be an issue.

So while, in an ideal world we would shoot on film - we cannot. In addition, our concept lends itself to a stylization that could come from the grainier quality digital will give us. On top of that, hearing about films like November, which apparantly wasnt shot with any adapter whatsever, and whose terrific color palatte was created during filming with lighting, it looks like a bit of a low budget revolution is happening.

So we now are trying to decide if we should be using a 35mm adapter - one is on order and we will perform tests with and without and then blowup to film - should be interesting and Ill be sure to report back to everyone here.

any other opinions are very welcome

thanks again
seth

[goober542]

I have been with redrock since near the beginning and I can say from personal experience with rez charts and what not that if you up your detail level slightly there is very little softening of the image with the new macro and gg that they offer, its a very high quality piece of equipment, with plenty of options to customize it to your needs.

(r)yan

[bvalente]

We have been given a generous offer of a free 35mm film conversion (about 1 min of footage) which we hope to complete in the next month. The recent advances we've made on our adapter aren't yet public, but we expect to make it public during August.

You should also check out the quality of the reel-stream sample footage (other threads in this forum) that show the quality of our adapter - and that's just a DIY version!

If you have specific questions, please contact me directly at bvalente@redrockmicro.com

[slimjimmed]

November WAS shot with an adapter, not a shallow DOF adapter, but a device that allowed the visual data to remain uncompressed with a 4:4:4 transfer(as opposed to the normal 4:1:1 transfer that the DVX100 outputs normally). In theory, it achieved the same thing that the Andromeda ( http://reel-stream.com/andromeda ) does.
It should be noted that if you shoot your movie with a DVx100a normally, it will have an output whose image quality fails in comparison to what November achieved because of the compression.
Not to say it will look horrible at all, but people should know that the people who shot November hacked into their camera. The director talked a little about it at this years SIFF(Seattle International Film Festival) during a Q & A following a screening of the movie.

[smelni]

I just saw november today - it looked great but to be honest there was an awful lot of noise - especially in the dark areas.

[BrianAWells]

November WAS shot with ... a device that allowed the visual data to remain uncompressed with a 4:4:4 transfer
The director probably meant, if anything, they edited uncompressed.

[Jay Rodriguez]

man, I love the quality that the uncompressed footage provides.

Whats that Andormeda cost?

[Shaw]

November was NOT shot with an uncompressed system. It was only edited on an uncompressed timeline. Reel-stream didn't even have a operational product (for commercial use) by the time the film was shot.

[Barry_Green]

That's correct. November was shot on a regular DVX and recorded to regular miniDV tape.

[slimjimmed]

I apologize for the misinformation...I guess the director was referring to a 4:4:4 edit or color-ccorrection. I must admit, I didn't know that there was such a thing as 4:4:4 color-correction. I must have misunderstood...I'll go grab a chair and face the wall for 30 minutes.

[Barry_Green]

No worries, Jim! You can come out of "time out" now! :)

I just wanted to make sure people didn't get the wrong impression about "November" -- it didn't need special hardware, it really is the straight DVX (not even the anamorphic adapter). They may have worked wonders with it in post, but the images the started with are straight from the cam.

[ayoj]

Hi Barry,

I'm considering purchasing a micro35 unit for my doc. But now wondering whether it's worth it if "November" got such good results shooting straight with the DVX. You may recall I have a DVX100A, shot one interview for my doc using the anamorphic and discovered that it's probably best suited to dramatic productions where there's more control.
I definitely want to transfer to 35, for initial film exhibition and hopefully sell it to television.
We're having a little trouble getting the shallow DOF in normal interview set ups - too close quarters, which is one key reason why we're looking at the micro 35 and additional lenses.
What are your thoughts?

[xilixfilms]

So can we have some clips or footage of those that finally got their films transfered from the adapters (any of the adapters) to a 35mm film????????

[bvalente]

We recently had our micro35/M2 adapter reviewed by Maurico Rubenstein, DP for such projects as Casa De Los Babys. His goal (along with is two ACs) was specifically to evaluate the micro35 for film out quality. His reaction (roughly paraphrased) was that he was pleased with the color, contrast, and resolution, and he felt it would work for his 35mm film out requirements.

[xilixfilms]

So is it possible for you guys to show us a true raw 35mm transfer footage of some shots done using the M2?

With that, we can then believe that truely, this can be done, of course with some serious expertise!.

[Barry_Green]

The only way they could show such footage is by showing a film clip. Transferring footage to film, and then back to video, and showing that video, wouldn't tell you anything. You'd have to see it in the theater to know if it's worth using for a film blow-up.

[Yas Kassana]

Hmm..interesting

[bvalente]

Film out testing via the forums is like a proof for quantum uncertainty principal - we can say its there, but if we show it to you it goes away (i.e., we have to convert it back to video). At any rate, no one has produced the film, we only have an educated opinion who has used an adapter. We do have a *very* special DP who has agreed to do the film out test.