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Dyrseve989
07-12-2005, 07:43 PM
Any suggestions are welcomed

I have to shoot a scene on a very small street with very little traffic, I even plan on doing it at about 4a.m., where nobody uses the road, there are about 8 private houses and the town is a very small one(the road is also a side road, so only the people that live on the street really need acess). I am extremely stubborn and refuse to use any other location, and I have never hit the point where I wasent willing to figure out an alternate wayto shoot what I want. I tired talking to the people in the town hall, and told them I was a student, but they refused to give me a shooting permit on the road, I was thinking of going to all the houses and convincing them that this is a good idea and get them to sign a form saying they give me permission, does any1 have any other ideas of how I can get this shooting permit, I can only hold the filming of the sequence off for so long, thanx in advance for any input

-Matt-

Shaw
07-12-2005, 08:06 PM
For what reason did they refuse to give you a permit? Do other filmmakers get them or is the place you're at film empty (and thus the problems)?

Dyrseve989
07-12-2005, 08:34 PM
The lady I talked to was only a secratery, and she told me it wasent gonna happen,my charming couldnt persuade her otherwise, and no, apparently this town is not normally ever filmed in, and if it is, it is definently a gureilla filmmaking team, but this sequence is a little more complicated then a gurellia job, but, to answer your question, there was no reason given

Barry_S
07-12-2005, 08:51 PM
Steal the shot. Plan it well, and just go shoot it. Worst case scenario--a cop comes (do they even have a cop?) and tells you to shove off. When Hitchcock filmed North by Northwest he stole the shot of the UN. Geez, imagine how easy it must be to get the UN to grant a permit. On the other hand, if you really want a permit--don't deal with a snotty secretary, take your request to the director of your state film commission and be prepared to take out a mil or a mil and half of production insurance at $250-$350/day.

Rosestar
07-12-2005, 09:16 PM
Yeah, I would either go over the head of the secratary, in that case I would talk to a Politician about the situation and not a bureaucrat. Find a City Council member or County Commisioner that you can pitch the economic advantage of being a "film friendly" community. Have some appealing pitch material to show the politicians staff. This may work, but you may still have to be insured and bonded.

If you are going to do the shot early in the morning, try stealing the shot. Be prepared and be quick.

Good luck.

ttt
07-12-2005, 09:50 PM
Steal the shot. Plan it well, and just go shoot it. Worst case scenario--a cop comes (do they even have a cop?) and tells you to shove off.

i agree with this, just shoot it. especially at 4am in a small town? just dont have tons of people making noise, it IS 4am! be super quiet and steal it!!!

t :laugh:

Owen
07-12-2005, 11:24 PM
Stealing the shot is all well and good unless you have E&O concerns later on down the road. I think it really depends on your plans for this production (is it for fun, for profit, for distribution, etc.). If the place is going to be unrecognizable in the final cut then you should be fine stealing it, but since you seem dead set on this location it sounds like there's something quite unique about it.

You might be able to look into city codes and see if there are ordinances about this. I wouldn't take "no" as a final answer from a secretary.

As far as production insurance, I find that I get a lot more cooperation about locations when I'm insured. Just depends on your needs and budget.

thisiswells
07-13-2005, 05:02 AM
small town politics are lovely. remember, while this woman's title may only be 'secretary', she very well may be married to the judge, you never know... so be careful. clearly they want financial gain out of this. everyone does. plain and simple. You could offer to buy some kid a baseball jersey or volunteer for a day at the library, see if you can make friends and barter with them, and for the love of all things good, don't be insistent on getting this location. They've already picked up on it, and if you persist, they will recognize the value this means to you (again, they see dollar signs) so don't be desperate. The best bet is to know someone in the town and have them talk it over with the powers that be. If you don't know anyone in the town, be prepared to pay somebody something. Ultimately, they are just messing with you. It's a small town, what else are these people gonna do during the day except mess with people that aren't members of their tight nit community!?

GenJerDan
07-13-2005, 07:08 AM
I'm really really really trying to not go off on a tangent and rant about this kind of stuff.

I mean...who do they think they are?

If you walk down the street with an InstaMatic, anybody going to stop you? How about if you set up an easel and break out the watercolors? No?

But...OMG, look! A Movie camera! Let's arrest him!

Puh-lease. Unless you're going to be blocking traffic, what the business is it of theirs?

Dan

Jay Rodriguez
07-13-2005, 07:29 AM
I'm really really really trying to not go off on a tangent and rant about this kind of stuff.

I mean...who do they think they are?

If you walk down the street with an InstaMatic, anybody going to stop you? How about if you set up an easel and break out the watercolors? No?

But...OMG, look! A Movie camera! Let's arrest him!

Puh-lease. Unless you're going to be blocking traffic, what the business is it of theirs?

Dan

I feel the same was...

Anyway, IMO, fuk them, steal that shit geurilla style baby! <---wow, that's alot of commas, lol.

thisiswells
07-13-2005, 07:33 AM
I mean...who do they think they are?
where does the entitlement mentality fit in here? video on public property is privalege, not a right.

Neil Rowe
07-13-2005, 07:34 AM
disclaimer: i am not a lawyer.. i am speaking from my own knowledge and experience only which may not apply in your scenario.

..they cannot stop you from shooting anything unless your blocking traffic or causing some sort of disruption. you can shoot from the public property (the road) as long as you dont get onto any private property. they cant stop you from using their houses or buildings in the background either.. as long as your not shooting it directly or making it a focal point in any way , or using a telephoto lense to see aspects of the property in detail. if its just an incidental view theres nothing they can do. generally permits are only required if your crew is above a certain size, or your gear consists of things other than a small camera.. you have a dvx.. its not a honking 35mm. alot of places you only need a permit if your shooting from a tripod or using other equipment. they cant stop you from using your camera in the street unless its a road which does not normally allow pedestrian traffic. I would personally do it when they are all asleep and just stay quiet.. although they likely have some dogs around which will ruin the night. perhaps a little EZ-DOZE in the doggie dish would help with that .. just kidding of course. but id plan out all the required shots in advance and have it well rehearsed to go smoothly and quickly, get in .. shoot, and get out ASAP.

AlexGg
07-13-2005, 08:39 AM
I am curious: what sort of permit I should obtain if I am shooting from a tripod ?

Neil Rowe
07-13-2005, 09:01 AM
..consult your local /state film office or the city /municipality office.

..here we do not need a permit to shoot anywhere accept a state park or in/on government property. private property just needs owners permission. of course pending what you are doing ie: blocking roads and blowing stuff up- permits and other things will certainly come into play. but for general shooting without any of that stuff which blocks or prohibits the public or other things which youd obviously need some type of clearance for like running down the stret with guns downtown... here, no permit is required.

HorseFilms
07-13-2005, 09:55 AM
Same here. No permits required... not that I'd probably go through the trouble of getting them if they were.

Dyrseve989
07-13-2005, 10:52 AM
I was considering a guerilla run, but the problem is, its not a couple of shots, it a whole scene. But it is an extremely small production, no fee talent(perks of going through art schools for small timers) no fee crew. The area dosent have any sort of detail that people may even recognize say i dd guerilla it and they happen to see it, it is important to the content of the story to see this setting within the scene. I am using a car, two actors, two portable lights, cam-tripod - 24' of dolly tracking, and about 6 crew members, butI think I can maybe skeletonize the skeleton crew even more. I was thinking maybe if I just went through the people living on the street and they said they had no problem, I could kinda guerilla it from the cops, as long as no one that lives there complains, I may just be able to get away with it

Thanks for everyones input, if you have any suggestions im very open to them

-Matt-

GenJerDan
07-13-2005, 11:36 AM
where does the entitlement mentality fit in here? video on public property is privalege, not a right.

Huh? Are we not the public?

Who says video is a privelege? And why?

I am "entitled" to do whatever the heck I want, as long as it doesn't harm someone else (or, in the nannier States, myself).

We really need to get the politicians thinking about more important things.

Dan

GenJerDan
07-13-2005, 12:48 PM
Oh. One other thing. Before I'd try for the permit, I'd ask the folks living where you want to shoot, if there are any. No sense in being a pain in the butt to them, permit or no.

And, worse comes to worst, and the city denies a permit, maybe one of the nice folks will apply for a permit to have a "block party", and to hell with city hall. :)

Dan

XCheck
07-13-2005, 12:51 PM
I am "entitled" to do whatever the heck I want, as long as it doesn't harm someone else.Ab-so-fucking-loote-ly! Especially when it comes to creative use of freedom of expression! Why should the government have the right to put a sureveillance camera on every corner and red light, while preventing the citizens from filming and videotaping?

I'd say go for it - and they give you hard time, publicize it to death.

Dyrseve989
07-13-2005, 01:03 PM
Sounds like a plan to me, thanks for everything, im gonna talk to the neighbors, get approval from them, and guerilla it, hopefully it all works out......i really.....really.....hope it all works out

-Matt-

Barry_Green
07-13-2005, 01:54 PM
I'm really really really trying to not go off on a tangent and rant about this kind of stuff.

I mean...who do they think they are?

If you walk down the street with an InstaMatic, anybody going to stop you? How about if you set up an easel and break out the watercolors? No?

But...OMG, look! A Movie camera! Let's arrest him!

Puh-lease. Unless you're going to be blocking traffic, what the business is it of theirs?

Dan

Just got through shooting a scene in a state park. They were *very* stringent about permits and approval. Not hard to get, just had to jump through all the proper hoops.

They used to be a lot more free-wheeling, but not anymore. Seems that someone came there and did a still photo shoot with a model and a cat. No permit, no permission, no insurance, just showed up and shot. The cat scratched the model on her face. The model sued THE STATE, because it was a state park where it happened. She won.

Moral of the story is: film is a commercial enterprise, with inherent risks and hazards, and exposes the property owner (such as the local government) to risks. And if the state or property owner doesn't thoroughly show due diligence in exercising proper care to make sure that shooters are insured and perhaps policed, and that they're not placing the public (or themselves) in danger, etc., then if something goes wrong, the courts will find them liable. Believe it or not, agree with it or not, that's the way it is and that's what you have to work around.

Having proper insurance goes a LONG WAY towards alleviating everyone's concerns.

GenJerDan
07-13-2005, 09:50 PM
The model sued THE STATE, because it was a state park where it happened. She won.


How can some model afford better lawyers than the State? That's ridiculous.

What State? Everyone should go there and screw in the parks, and get the State to come up with the money to raise our kids.

If we let brainless people run our lives, we might as well be brainless ourselves.

Dan

Ralph Oshiro
08-07-2005, 02:00 AM
Barry's right, it's basically ALL about LIABILITY.

The reason no one lets you shoot anywhere is because if ANYTHING happens--they are liable for any potential property and personal injury damages. I've been stealing locations without a permit or insurance for 20 years. I also make friends with lots of businesses whenever I get the opportunity (with the later intention of hitting them up for location access). I also keep an eye out for "lonely" streets and locations that look like "nobody cares." If an area looks like no body cares, often no one does, even the LAPD. I've shot on the streets of downtown Los Angeles with no permits, no insurance, and the cops just drove right by (of course, I only had a single KinoFlo and a small camera). Here are some other things I've learned . . .

1. You are often totally allowed to shoot in many public areas WITHOUT A TRIPOD. This means handheld and Steadicam shots are permissible.

2. Again, if the area looks like no one cares, often, no one does.

3. Be prepared, shoot efficiently, and shoot your "must have" stuff first.

4. Always have a, "Gee, I'm just making this little demo for my reel, sorry . . ." kinda attitude, rather than, "I have a RIGHT to shoot!" kinda attitude. Many times, if you're cool, the cops will let you even finish the shot before they chase you away. Or if your set-up doesn't look that complicated, and you're not disrupting either pedestrian or vehicular traffic, they might even just give you a pass.

Of course, this all applies to shooting on/from public property only. When shooting on private property, you must get the permission of either the owner or the local management. Don't try to get clearance from the corporate office--you probably won't get it (and if you don't have a million-dollar insurance certificate, you definitely WON'T get permission from corporate). Just don't shoot any identifying features or logos.

Walter_Graff
08-07-2005, 08:02 AM
<If you walk down the street with an InstaMatic, anybody going to stop you? How about if you <set up an easel and break out the watercolors? No?


And that is the difference. Odds are good that if you set up that easel or take that picture with the instamatic, you are not going to be standing in the middle of the road like an idiot. Yea but it's 4am you say, who cares? That's the time when more drunk drivers are on the road than any other time of day. The problem here isn't beaurocracy, but insurance. Blame it on the tort system we have in the US that allows you to sue for buying a hot cup of cofffee only to sue when you spill it on yourself. No town is going to let you say you want to do anything in the middle of traffic cause it's their insurance policy that covers you, and our legal system that scares everyone. And in fact, if something did happen to you or you were involved with something, you could turn around and sue them too. I'm with the town on this one. As a taxpayer in the town, I would not want liability to become an issue that could drive our town into bankrupcy. I know, odds are slim to none that something will happen, but as long as there is a possibility, then you either show us a policy that covers you and us or forget it. If you are not going to get permission, then go back and lie and say it's on the curb or just do it.

GenJerDan
08-07-2005, 08:13 AM
[QUOTE=Walter_Graff Odds are good that if you set up that easel or take that picture with the instamatic, you are not going to be standing in the middle of the road like an idiot. [/QUOTE]

My Ma taught me not to play in traffic, anyway.

If you're going to be blocking traffic/closing streets, sure you'd need a permit. That's just common sense.

But if someone tries to stop me from filming in my own front yard, they'd better remember that little thing called the 2nd Amendment to Constitution.

Dan

Walter_Graff
08-07-2005, 08:20 AM
We used to have a forth amendment in NYC, then the police decided it was okay to search peoples bag at random and the idiots that live here let them. Only this week did five people finally take the city to court.

Slimothy
08-07-2005, 11:46 AM
Steal the shot!!! I'm about to do it for my zombie movie. If I have to tap into the DVXUser bail funds, I'll let you know...

vicente velasco
08-09-2005, 12:31 AM
yea just pretend your are not shooting or shoot quickly

Dyrseve989
08-09-2005, 08:43 AM
thats a hard thing to do when I want the sequence to be at its best, good coverage, good audio, best possible acting, best possible shot setup, all come with their time constraints and setup space. This is a sequence that is not one for the guerilla filmaking technique, unless the scene were completely changed around -which I guess in order to use the location, you gotta make the adjustments, i guess i like to think that the next film, or the film after will be absent of sacrafices, but then I realize that sacraficing is inevitable.

rreichenfeld
08-09-2005, 11:12 AM
gorrila tactics for certain, and maybe instead of starting at 4am maybe try a little earlier if you shoot is going to take long, maybe you could manipulate the lighting to make it look like the desired time you want it to be.

GenJerDan
08-09-2005, 11:51 AM
Assumption: this involves a vehicle or vehicles, and not just people in the road. If it doesn't, ignore the rest of this.

Cheat.

Do the long shots guerilla. You're in and out in no time, and no one notices. The audience sees the location.

Then, for all the close and two-shots and whathaveyou, do it somewhere else where the background is similar enough to not jar.

Dan

Dyrseve989
08-09-2005, 02:56 PM
thats what I had figured, since the whole film got postponed anyway, I figure I have a little more time to make minor adjustments in storyboarding, and shot layout. I have been reorganizing the shot list, and figuring what shots I need the location for and which shots I cn cheat, I have also tossed alot of specific shots, it brought a tear to my eye, but it had to be done, no remorse for the weak i guess

bLueButterfLy
08-10-2005, 10:53 AM
I'm planning on shooting a scene where a woman is walking on a sidewalk passing many popular boutiques like Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Calvin Klein, Banana Republic. ..and so on. Now, i've read in some filmmaking books that as long as the main focus is not these stores, you're okay not to get permission from them. Is this true if I'm going to distribute the film theatrically? If it's only a demo reel then i would just steal it...but this case has a commercial aspect to it.
I only have a DVX100a and a flowpod to use and an assistant to hold diffusers or reflectors and also about 15 extras. It's a busy area so i'm planning to shoot it on a Sunday morning so we don't get in the way of a lot of people. Do I also need a city permit? what about passersby who got in the shot? do I need release form from them?

Josh_Boelter
08-10-2005, 11:46 AM
Good question, bLueButterfLy. I think you're okay, but I hope someone else has a more definitive answer.

Cheers,

Josh

GenJerDan
08-10-2005, 12:28 PM
I've yet to see anyone able to quote the actual law on the matter.

Everything I've found on copyright and trademark law seems to say don't worry about it.

All those blurred or turned-around products you see on TV and such? It's because the manufacturers wouldn't pay the producers. Also, especially in TV, it's not a good idea to show a product name if you don't know who your sponsors will be. Why would Coke want to sponsor a program that shows a six-pack of Pepsi in the fridge. :)

Dan

Walter_Graff
08-10-2005, 03:54 PM
"I've yet to see anyone able to quote the actual law on the matter."

Probably because there is no law. If you display your store in public and I shoot that store in the background, I owe you nothing. If I show someone masturbating on your store window, that might not make them happy. It's about what you are doing. Is the store just the store? No one cares. Are you making a derogatory statement about the store? They might.


"All those blurred or turned-around products you see on TV and such? It's because the manufacturers wouldn't pay the producers."

Actually it's because the producers don't even want to make it an issue. It's more we are not giving them free advertising rather than we asked them for money and they said no.

Barry_Green
08-10-2005, 04:46 PM
That isn't all there is to it. If you show an art gallery, and there are copyrighted paintings on display, and you show them in your film without the authorization to reproduce those paintings, then you're potentially asking for trouble. Now consider that the Coke can design is copyrighted with the same level of copyright as the painting is, and you can see how trouble can arise if you have a shot with a coke can in it, if Coke decides it doesn't want its product in your shot.

This is perhaps more of an issue when shooting on private property, as the law gives certain allowance to being able to film anything that's visible from a public street, especially for news shooters. Which may or may not give you some exemption on shooting things that are displayed in a store window. I'm not a lawyer. But anyone concerned about this should definitely be seeking competent legal advice.

Walter_Graff
08-10-2005, 05:05 PM
>That isn't all there is to it. If you show an art gallery, and there are copyrighted paintings on display, and you show them in your film without the authorization to reproduce those paintings, then you're potentially asking for trouble. Now consider that the Coke can design is copyrighted with the same level of copyright as the painting is, and you can see how trouble can arise if you have a shot with a coke can in it, if Coke decides it doesn't want its product in your shot.>

Ok I'll make it easy. A store has a public display on a street and you shoot that store as someone walks up the street. No problem. You have someone looking in that store window (window shopping), no problem. Someone bashing that stores prices as they look in the window, might have a problem. You are in a gallery (private location and you shoot someone admiring art, no problem. In a gallery and someone spiting on a painting cause they think it looks like shit, problem. It's about how you treat what you shoot. Like it and you have no problem, make them look bad and they might not like you. And just a correction, a Coke can is a trademark and not a copyright. Only authorship is copyrighted. Books and literature are copyrighted but products are not, they are trademarked. Many folks are confused about this.

This may help those that get the terms confused:

http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/AAC160F3-CCDC-4C4A-9A92BB0A62CCF8DC/catID/D8932879-DC34-43DF-BF65FC92D55FEE5D/310/274/FAQ/

And with that Coke can show someone drinking a coke and you have no problem. Show someone pissing in a coke can and you might.

Barry_Green
08-10-2005, 05:19 PM
But that's not defensible as to the law. The law says that if you want to use a protected work, you have to have permission.

What you're laying out is reasonable common sense, but not the law. And it may avoid problems, but it may not.

If you decided to show a carton of Ben & Jerry's ice cream, and people just LOOOOVING Ben & Jerry's ice cream, and fawning over how good it is -- but the people who are doing so happen to be Republicans -- well, Ben & Jerry might say "hey, no way, pull that outta there." Or, you may be showing it perfectly innocently -- but you happen to be Michael Moore. They'd almost unquestionably pull their product from your film, as I'm certain Ben & Jerry's would be about as anti-Michael-Moore as anybody gets. Whether you're showing the product in a good light or not, they may decide to act out against it simply because they don't like the film or the message or whatever -- and if you don't have permission, you don't have a leg or a foot or a toe to stand on.

You can't decide for someone else as to whether they'll have a problem with you using their material. You don't know what their priorities are. And you can't predict when someone may object to your usage, although you can apply common sense to the subject and at least avoid obviously derogatory uses.

So here's what the law IS: you can't use someone else's protected work (copyrighted, trademarked, patented, etc) without their permission. And yes, that does extend to having a painting on a wall in the background. Now, where that absolute law transcends into gray area is where all the confusion comes in -- how briefly was the item seen, how clearly was it displayed, would a reasonable person think you were trying to benefit somehow by showing the work (i.e., you're gaining benefit by taking advantage of their copyrighted material without permission and without compensation)...

The only true way you can "make it easy" is to be a news shooter. For news, pretty much all bets are off. News gets to do what they need to do to get the story, and if there happens to be a coke can in the shot, well, too bad. But for a for-profit dramatic production, it isn't that easy, and never will be.

Only a lawyer can answer the question, and that lawyer would have to see the usage in context to determine whether it constitutes infringement or not.

Josh_Boelter
08-10-2005, 06:03 PM
This is giving me a headache. Good discussion though.

Ralph Oshiro
08-10-2005, 07:51 PM
When shooting on private property, you must get the permission of either the owner or the local management.Well, I've just learned a few things about permits . . . For the city of Burbank, and the city of Los Angeles, permits ARE required EVEN when shooting entirely on private property. This is the reason my whole zombie short is now shut down. I HAD permission from the location's owner. But the city wanted a $300 permit fee plus $80/hour for a fire marshall, and I would've had to present a $1 million certificate of insurance which would've cost about $800 for two days.

Sure, I could still go ahead and shoot and hope I don't get caught. But I have six actors in full make-up and wardobe and a lot of blood spilling everywhere. If caught, I would be cited and the owner would be cited--probably close to $1,000 total in fines.

Kevin McCallister
08-10-2005, 09:04 PM
NBCShooter, is production insurance really that expensive near you? Is it just because you're in LA? I've heard much lower quotes than $800 for much longer than 2 days out here on the east coast.

Ralph Oshiro
08-10-2005, 09:14 PM
NBCShooter, is production insurance really that expensive near you? Is it just because you're in LA? I've heard much lower quotes than $800 for much longer than 2 days out here on the east coast.I was initially told "about $1,000" for two weeks' coverage. I just got a quote by e-mail for about $750 (about $600 for the actual coverage and a $150 broker fee). Which is silly, since a full year's worth of production insurance ($1 million, liability only) is as low as about $2,500.

Moonwind
08-10-2005, 09:32 PM
One other thing you may need to keep in mind (and check on) is that many stores have their names/logos trademarked like Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Calvin Klein, Sacs 5th, so there could be a sticky whicket even showing the names without permission. If at all possible, I always get location permission in order to CMA.

pookie_old
08-10-2005, 10:28 PM
Short term liability insurance is always seriously higher than yearly, most small shooters don't want a full year, so the insutance brokers can gouge. $600 -$800 sounds like the going rate.

Welcome to LA.

GenJerDan
08-10-2005, 11:34 PM
So here's what the law IS: you can't use someone else's protected work (copyrighted, trademarked, patented, etc) without their permission. And yes, that does extend to having a painting on a wall in the background.

Doubtful. Very.

That would mean you can't make any film. Except maybe pornos set in the desert or ocean.

Those patterns on the upholstery, the rugs, and the wallpaper? Copyrighted. Those shirts, pants, sneakers that have logos on them? Trademarked. The t-shirt that says "I'm with stupid ->"? Copyrighted. All those cars in the street? Brand and model names and designs trademared and.or copyrighted. Etc etc etc.

Dan

Walter_Graff
08-11-2005, 05:23 AM
Well let me tell you how it's done in the real feature world. Public relations firms who represent all sorts of companies get the hollywood scripts that are approved for production. They read them and find places where their clients products can be added to the movie. So for instance last year a movie script had a setting that was on a vacation resort. A PR firm that represents another destination saw the script and offered the change in venue. In another case one firm offered an idea that would change the script so that the character liked that companies clients donuts. But that's the real world and how it all works. For anyone on this board, I am just saving you the trouble. You don't have the lawyers or budget to go calling every company you want show in you film and negotiate barter. Odds are good that no one here will have anything that will ever get distribution of any kind so I am giving you the route we use in broadcasting, if you show a product, don't show it in a bad way and you are safe. If you are not sure, turn the Coke can so we don't see the name. Simple.

Walter_Graff
08-11-2005, 05:54 AM
I should add for those that ask that even on the big level of product placement, products don't always have to be put in a great light to be paid for to be placed in a popular TV show or movie. Seinfeld had a famous episode where Kramer drops a Junior mint into a patient during an operation. It wasn't as simple as writting a script using a piece of candy. While it wasn't the greatest use of a junior mint, it was a great paid for use of product placement. So the junior mint people paid a large sum to have that episode written around a Junior mint, even if it wasn't shown in the best of light. Today there is not a Tv show or major feature film you see where a product isn't paid to be placed in the film. When the movie "The Firm" had Red Stripe placed in the films plot, sales of Red Stripe increased 50%. So expect to see lots more of tis and less commercials as now they can simply place all the products they sell in your favorite TV shows.

Now Barry about your statement about law and all, it doesn't work that way in creative works like films and TV. Most times companies ask permission, but not always. And sometimes when they don't, the companies they don't ask would not have given permission, but because of the nature of making a creative work like a film or TV show, they really have no recourse or care to make the effort. It's sort of like how celebrities don't have as many rights when it comes to publicity. I remember an article in one of the newspapers a while back about how the Sopranos used a can of Raid in a scene of a rather violent beating. But they never asked the makers of Raid permission to do so. And while the makers of Raid were not happy with the use of the product, there was nothing worth doing to stop the show after it was shown. Or said another way, who's to say that a character like Tony Soprano doesn't use products like Raid? While the company didn't like the content for the use of Raid, it also new that many millions of people watch the program so it was advertising for their product and any advertising is good advertising. I wouldn't doubt sales of Raid went up after that episode.

GenJerDan
08-11-2005, 05:59 AM
Yeah. I don't recommend reading the copyright law. It's a 290+ pages of incredibly boring text. And nowhere does it mention what we're all talking about.

The closest it comes is in the section on "designs"...in which is says it's not an infringement to show stuff in a film as long as you are not taking any business away from the copyright owner. (But this section deals with things like the design of a boat hull, not a a painting on a wall or a store name.)

:)

Dan

FilmMakerr
08-11-2005, 01:14 PM
Anyone know how much filming permits are? for instance maybe out side of LA, since LA I imagine must be expensive.

khmuse
08-11-2005, 02:24 PM
Different cities have different rates, some are much more expensive than others. A great place to start looking is:

http://www.film.ca.gov/state/film/film_homepage.jsp

khmuse
08-11-2005, 02:56 PM
Here is a link to a PDF that I often use. It shows all cities within the 30 mile zone and includes the contacts, costs and restrictions.

http://www.museelectronics.com/30MileZoneChart_2-9-05.pdf

JuX
08-11-2005, 04:14 PM
pretty hefty prices in some areas but very good info. Thanks for the link!

FilmMakerr
08-11-2005, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I wouldnt shoot in LA anyway, I'm sure other states are MUCH cheaper. Thanks for the links

khmuse
08-11-2005, 09:11 PM
Yeah, they can be cheaper to shoot in other states (just wrapped a feature film in Oklahoma) but the resources in terms of talent, crew and equipment are much more sparse. Some of the cites surrounding Los Angeles are not too bad to work with, others can be a real pain in the ass.

ttt
08-11-2005, 11:44 PM
Here is a link to a PDF that I often use. It shows all cities within the 30 mile zone and includes the contacts, costs and restrictions.

http://www.museelectronics.com/30MileZoneChart_2-9-05.pdf


great 'zone' rates pdf! nice...
good to get a 'basic general idea' of the rates in the 30 mile la zone...
t :laugh:

FilmMakerr
08-12-2005, 02:01 AM
Yeah, they can be cheaper to shoot in other states (just wrapped a feature film in Oklahoma) but the resources in terms of talent, crew and equipment are much more sparse. Some of the cites surrounding Los Angeles are not too bad to work with, others can be a real pain in the ass.


How much was a permit in oklahoma?

khmuse
08-12-2005, 07:47 AM
I don't know the exact costs for permits in Oklahoma (I wasn't the producer) but I believe that they were under a few hundred dollars for a month long shoot. Even the police costs were low (many volunteered just for a chance to work on a movie). The down side was the necessity to bring in the main talent from LA (good for my daughter who had the title role) though they did cast all the supporting and background roles there. All the department leads (DP, Key Grip, Gaffer, Sound, Design, etc) were from LA, other crew members were locals.

It really depends upon your project if you are better off shooting within "the zone" or not, just weight all your options well in advance.

FilmMakerr
08-12-2005, 01:08 PM
I don't know the exact costs for permits in Oklahoma (I wasn't the producer) but I believe that they were under a few hundred dollars for a month long shoot. Even the police costs were low (many volunteered just for a chance to work on a movie). The down side was the necessity to bring in the main talent from LA (good for my daughter who had the title role) though they did cast all the supporting and background roles there. All the department leads (DP, Key Grip, Gaffer, Sound, Design, etc) were from LA, other crew members were locals.

It really depends upon your project if you are better off shooting within "the zone" or not, just weight all your options well in advance.


Thanks for the response.

bLueButterfLy
08-13-2005, 02:01 AM
Today, I went down to the actual location i wanted to shoot and took this photo. This is how i actually wanted to frame the shot with the actress in front of everyone else (medium shot...she's invisible at this time). As you can see, Gucci is clearly visible in the frame, then a little bit of 'Bang & Olufsen', then Starbucks, then Nike (subtle orange logo in the background). Actress will be walking towards the camera as camera pulls back revealing other stores beside Gucci. My question is...do I only need a city permit to shoot in the sidewalk? or do I also need permission from these stores? again...i'm only shooting with the not so intimidating DVX100a camera (as suppose to a 35mm) with maybe 3 crew. I'm thinking 'guerilla style'. What do you think would be my maximum penalty if i just steal the shot?:lipsrseal
http://www.onesweetweddingday.com/video/location%20street.jpg

GenJerDan
08-13-2005, 02:09 AM
City permit, most likely.

"Permission" from stores? If they didn't want their names seen, they should't have put the buildings out where anyone could see them.
Dan

Walter_Graff
08-13-2005, 05:34 AM
If you are public property, you only need city permission. If you are in any of these stores you need their permission, but if they are only shown as you are on public property as your photo shows, you do not need their permission.

Josh_Boelter
08-13-2005, 06:50 AM
If this is just one shot of a woman walking down the street, I think I'd opt for guerilla style. If you have a boom or lights, I'd get the permit, but if it's just a camera and one shot, I'd probably steal the shot.

bLueButterfLy
08-14-2005, 07:26 PM
Whew :thumbsup: .... That'll make my job a lot easier. thanks guys

somewestfilms
09-01-2005, 09:57 PM
The best bit of advice I have received on this issue was, "The first time you get caught filmming something you're not supposed to, chances are you won't go to jail." I have done this a few times, and I haven't ben to jail for it yet. I say go for it.