Just got a new camera - Sony F35

[macgregor]

Edit: as it's revealed later, this thread is about the SONY F35.


And now I'm like a kid with a new toy.

First test, a bit shaky, but shows huge amount of DR, great colorimetry, nice skintones and a veeeeeery film-like response.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIN3NWk7MM4&feature=youtu.be

High quality MP4: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/f352%20%282%29.mp4





List of F35 users here:

eddavid - NYC
JMtheDP - ?
Jusgorilla - South Africa
Sparky874 - UK
Hunter - mars
Leavingthecandy - US
mlysbakken - norway
viddovation - TN
Alan Pierson - NYC
Slimothy - LA
macgregor - in an airplane
keithlango - Seattle, WA
Barrett Phillips -

[PappasArts]

And now I'm like a kid with a new toy.

First test, a bit shaky, but shows huge amount of DR, great colorimetry, nice skintones and a veeeeeery film-like response.

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Wow! That DR is amazing. When he goes from the shaded area into the sun with a 3.8 stop increase, it still holds... Nice. Thanks for sharing Miguel!


Pappas
http://PAPPASARTS.WORDPRESS.COM
http://TWITTER.COM/PAPPASARTS

BlackMagic Digital Camera Info: http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?28-BlackMagic-Cinema-Camera-Technology-Announcements-amp-Latest-Info

[xenogears]

And now I'm like a kid with a new toy.

First test, a bit shaky, but shows huge amount of DR, great colorimetry, nice skintones and a veeeeeery film-like response.

Sorry to ask, but, what camera are you talking here?

[macgregor]

Sorry to ask, but, what camera are you talking here?



hahaha, that´s part of the game XD

[James0b57]

cool.

[TimurCivan]

C300? Or Alexa?

[J Davis]

Its the sony section

[Stephen Mick]

I'm going to guess NEX-5N. :D

[J Davis]

... with a PL adapter

[maranfilms]

im guessing the new Nikon dslr.

[dtjohns1]

F3 with slog? Only reason I say it can't be a dslr is it looks like a pretty hefty camera in the reflection of the subjects shades.

[nyvideo]

If it's in the Sony section... Hmm. The new RX100?

[Samuel H]

I love my NEX-5N, and it has great DR... but not this much. I'm guessing F3 too.

edit: wait, there was some test around saying the FS700 had greatly increased DR, it has to be that!

[markr041]

Well, the dynamic range is good, but seems to be at the expense of color: the greens are grey, the reds are not reds and the whole image is flat and not pleasing (it is not cinema-like). And the camera cannot retain focus when the guy moves, or when he does not and there is zooming by even a small amount.

I don't care what the camera is; this is unimpressive video performance.

[Nate Haustein]

Looks great to me. I'll say FS700.

[ZazaCast]

The title of the clip is "F35"....so, I guess it's a Sony F35! :)
(maybe?)

[macgregor]

Well, the dynamic range is good, but seems to be at the expense of color: the greens are grey, the reds are not reds and the whole image is flat and not pleasing (it is not cinema-like). And the camera cannot retain focus when the guy moves, or when he does not and there is zooming by even a small amount.

I don't care what the camera is; this is unimpressive video performance.


hahaha hilarious...

[hunter richards]

Ha!

[macgregor]

2nd day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_v_SXJAKNo&feature=player_embedded

[Samuel H]

looks great too (nicer images, but less of a torture test than the first clip)
when will you reveal the secret?


edit: like... now?

[macgregor]

The title of the clip is "F35"....so, I guess it's a Sony F35! :)
(maybe?)

And Zaza is the winner... XD

[Samuel H]

wow, you got a big boy! congrats!

[morgan_moore]

Without being rude - what did it cost

I have seen them around the price of a R1 and 1/4 of an alexa

What rationalle made you choose this over the 'current' S35 cams?

S

[Dubdom]

Without being rude - what did it cost

I have seen them around the price of a R1 and 1/4 of an alexa

What rationalle made you choose this over the 'current' S35 cams?

S
Surely 4:4:4 colour space and no beyer pattern on the sensor - at a guess. It is a very highly thought off ,very sharp . That and a CCD imager with the lack of rolling shutter. The only thing you might lose out on really seems to be lower light sensitivity. That and more expensive ancillaries (v locks, 19mm rods etc..)
Quite a good idea over getting a new F3 or C300.

[macgregor]

Without being rude - what did it cost

I have seen them around the price of a R1 and 1/4 of an alexa

What rationalle made you choose this over the 'current' S35 cams?

S

I paid about the price of a F3 or C300.
Reasons?Colorimetry, dynamic range, resolution... well you just can't compare those to the existing 35mm sensor prosumer cameras line.

The F35 inherits all the work Panavision developed with the Genesis. I was always in love with this camera when it was launched 3 years ago and now that rental companies (the only ones who could afford them) are getting rid of them I though, heck, I'll get one even if I only use it to shoot home videos.

To me, the F35 delivers the best film look of all current cameras. Yep, above Alexa and F65. And I´m not saying it's the best. I´m just saying it produces the best looking footage. The alexa might have more DR, the F65 might produce cleaner footage but to me they don't look as good as the Genesis/F35. Of course this is subjetive to everyone. But I could support my pov with 2 facts.
The Red One or the Alexa for example have tons of Dynamic range, but it's mostly allocated in the shadows. To the point of having something like 7 stops of shadows and just 3 and a half stops in the highlights. Film doesn't work like that. Film shows way more dynamic range above mid gray. The F35, up to a point works in that way, delivering more detail in the highlights than in the shadows (I think it´s the only camera to do this actually, about 6 stops of highlights and about 5 stops of shadows). So this produces footage that resembles how film stock portrays reality. And I like that.
Also the tone curve is very pleasent and doesn't scream digital as many other cameras do. Skintones looks just right and not plastic (ie: Red).

You could say, hey but the F3 shoots in Slog! Isn't that the same then? Meeeh, nice try, but the short answer is not. I've shot a lot with the F3 and while it produces very clean images, it doesn't look very filmic where the F35 does. Not the same colorimetry. After all, Sony use to sell the F35 for like $180K for a reason I guess...

The 2nd reason why I decided to go with this camera (besides the drop in price) is that we no longer need to carry a heavy HDCAM SR with it. Today, an inexpensive Hyperdeck shuttle will record beautifull 10bit 422 DNxHD files, ready to edit in real time (premiere, vegas, AE, Scratch...), easy to grade and really fast to copy. Perfect workflow.

[morgan_moore]

Very interesting - especially the cheap recording option!

[cpc]

The Red One or the Alexa for example have tons of Dynamic range, but it's mostly allocated in the shadows. To the point of having something like 7 stops of shadows and just 3 and a half stops in the highlights. Film doesn't work like that. Film shows way more dynamic range above mid gray.

Erm, you do understand that with a 14 stops of nearly uniformly distributed dynamic range as in Arri Log-C you can put mid-gray whereever you like, right? :)
In fact, it defaults to 7.5 stops above midgray and 6.5 stops below midgray at base ISO 800 with standard exposure.

(And grats on the new camera! :))

[macgregor]

Alexa looks plasticy. And while you can set mid grey where you want it easily, it is no that easy to cut the dr in the shadows to a given amount.

[Grug]

Very interesting decision Miguel. Having seen the prices F35s are going for these days I've had quite similar thoughts - F35 with a 4:2:2 ProRes/DNxHD recorder would be fantastic. How managable is the camera (size/weight-wise) for small crews in your opinion? I know the old recorders made it a huge beast.

[ZazaCast]

And Zaza is the winner... XD

Oh how I've waited to hear those words! :)

I hope this is the camera you're using for your WarFest entry. Looking forward to that.

[macgregor]

It's definately big, but totally managable for me. About the size and weight of a red one, but witout the hassel of the 300 accessories you needed to make it work. I haven´t got an EVF yet so I´m using the inexpensive zacuto for now and I have to say it works well.
I´m using the camera on the warfest tomorrow, so we'll see!

57725

[James0b57]

How's the fan noise compared to red?

[bill totolo]

Congrats Mac, glad you went for it.
Can you stick a Nikon adapter on that?

[Grug]

Miguel, how do you think the DR of the F35 compares to the current crop of cameras (Alexa, Epic, SLOGged F3?)

[macgregor]

Didn't I talked about that before?

[Pelican]

Wow, the F35 is now a real contender for my next camera. The footage you shot looks more like film than anything out there. Is there any concern about the cost of ownership for this high end camera? It may be similar to owning a 5yr old rolls royce.. I can afford to purchase it, but the dealer can break me on maintenance. I read somewhere that the software upgrades are quite high. Are there any ideas to how reliable these 4-5yr old F35's will be?

[macgregor]

I upgraded the camera the other day. Free or charge. Now I have 12bit 444 (but no way to record it lol) and new ISOs settings.

One thing to consider is that this camera has the worst menus I´ve ever seen. BUT, if you connect the camera via ethernet to your laptop and just use your internet browser, suddenly everything is easy and quick. In any case, once the camera is properly configured, it´s the fastest and easiest camera I´ve ever used. I set it in Cine mode and I just use my lightmeter for exposure.

Seriously, the only reason I see to buy a C300 or F3 instead of a F35 right now is the weight. Otherwise this camera rocks:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGsNjdY6veE

[Samuel H]

gorgeous images, those highlights are just awesome, this camera loves to play with the sun

[cpc]

So does "cine mode" just hard-select s-log or do you have control over the gamma?

[macgregor]

Cine EI mode defaults to Slog, extended DR and one of the 2 WB presets. No error for mistake. If you want to start playing with the supergammas, then don't use cine mode. ;D

[Grug]

Didn't I talked about that before?

You mentioned that Alexa has more DR (which is kinda a given) but not how it compares to other cameras in a similar price range. Do you think it's a match for the Red, C300 or SLOGged F3?

[macgregor]

Strictly talking about DR and nothing else, I´m curious to see where the F3 compares to the F35. I have the feeling that Slogged F3 has more DRin the shadows and almost the same ammount of highlights. The F3 is a great camera in this aspect. C300 and Red are clearly behind, allocating more stops in the shadows and not enough in the highlights.

Colorimetry on F3 and C300 are not in the same ballpark as Red, and not even worth comparing it with the F35.

In terms of resolution, all those cameras officially shoot at 1080p. Right. Until the moment you put them together and discover how the F35 footage shows more detail than the others while using 0 sharpening. I remember this characteristic when comparing the F35 vs the Red one a few years ago. No matter how we scaled down the 4K footage from the Red down to 1080p, the F35 always seemed to show more detail while still give very natural (non-sharpened) images.

[Barry_Green]

Strictly talking about DR and nothing else, I´m curious to see where the F3 compares to the F35.
According to the SCCE, the F35 clocked in at 11.3 stops of dynamic range, and the F3 (withOUT S-Log) clocked in at 11.2. So I would expect that you're right, the SLog'd F3 would definitely have more DR than the F35.


In terms of resolution, all those cameras officially shoot at 1080p. Right. Until the moment you put them together and discover how the F35 footage shows more detail than the others while using 0 sharpening. I remember this characteristic when comparing the F35 vs the Red one a few years ago. No matter how we scaled down the 4K footage from the Red down to 1080p, the F35 always seemed to show more detail while still give very natural (non-sharpened) images.
As compared to an F3, the F35 is definitely quite a bit higher res; the SCCE clocked it at 680 lines, the F3 at 540. But nowhere near what the Red MX showed, which was 1080 lines.

Numbers and comparisons taken from this article (http://nofilmschool.com/2011/05/numbers-single-chip-camera-evaluation-conducted/).

[macgregor]

If I´m not mistaken, that´s the same test used for this chart, right?

58087

This kind of illustrates my point. It´s not how much DR you have, it´s where you have it (I still take these tests with caution, there are too many things I didn't agree with when I watched them).

[Barry_Green]

Those are the same cameras used in the test I referenced, so I would assume that yes, that chart is from the same test.

[L1N3ARX]

Amazing, I always come down hard on Sony for delivering such a strong inescapable "video look" that simply lacks the cinematic appeal other cameras have... but man, I have to say the F35 is just incredible. Even if the F3 has more DR with S-Log, it doesn't even get to sniff what's going on here... I wonder what it is that Sony puts into their ultra high end cameras that finally gives it that "filmic" touch, it's certainly not just DR otherwise the F3 would be comparable, but it's just not. I'm definitely jealous, although for poor people like me the BMCC will be a decent compromise.

I agree that the F35 is still the most cinematic high end camera out there, but I also think Alexa is pretty darn good looking too.

[macgregor]

There was this old test where they compare the Panavision Genesis (where the F35 comes from) and film. It's a pity it´s not available in HD, but it is at least very useful for the purpose of analyzing dynamic range and colorimetry. And in this test it's hard to tell which one is which.


https://vimeo.com/27827403

[L1N3ARX]

Yeah that's impressive, it's pretty hard to tell which is which. How much did you pick this up for? As a rental that's probably been around the block once or twice I imagine that you got some kind of decent deal on it.

[jambredz]

He said he got it for c300/f3 price range.

Footage looks gorgeous. man i wish I had that

[GaryinCalifornia]

any more at that price...

[macgregor]

any more at that price...

I think there were a couple on ebay recently...

[Adamsenoj]

That's an interesting thread. The F35 does look very attractive at RED ONE prices. I had no idea they were going for that much till a few weeks ago when I also saw the Arri D21 body for less than a new F3. It's of course already sold now. :)
I think the D21 would also be a good deal. I always liked its image better than the Sonys and it has the optical viewfinder and physical shutter.
How do you think they compare, specially for us normal mortals? The F35 seems easy enough with an SSD external recording and an EVF so I guess you only need a body.

[Grug]

Miguel, can you capture the off-speed 1-50fps output from the F35 at 24p on the Hyperdeck Shuttle to create slow and fast motion footage?

[macgregor]

Well you can dial any frame rate from 1-60 on the F35, but your recorder needs to understand it. I tried it and it gets messy unless you´re using multiples of whatever framerate you´re using, since the recorder will keep recording at the framerate that the SDI signal carries.

[Grug]

Well you can dial any frame rate from 1-60 on the F35, but your recorder needs to understand it. I tried it and it gets messy unless you´re using multiples of whatever framerate you´re using, since the recorder will keep recording at the framerate that the SDI signal carries.

I feared as much, so does 48fps play friendly with 24fps for 2x slow-motion?

[macgregor]

Oh well, with the Hyperdeck, you´ll be safe with the following (project set at 24p):

60
50
30
25
24 ---
12
6
3
1

That´s plenty of possibilities with a $300 recorder (note that beyond 30fps you´ll need to record interlaced since the hyperdeck doesn´t go that fast).

[Grug]

Damn, so no proper slow-motion without the BIG Sony/Codex recorders? :(

Thanks for the answers mate, you've inspired me to quite seriously look at getting used a F35 myself. I was thinking to use it with my PIX240.

How have your clients responded to the camera so far? Are any concerned that it's 'out of date'? Or are you in a position where most let you use whatever you want?

[macgregor]

Well, you can always get the sony HDcam recorder for like another 5 grand lol. I haven´t looked into this in detail. Maybe the gemini can take advantage of the slow motion.

To be fair, I bought the camera to record birthdays and travel videos. Lol. If I'm hired as a director, production will provide cameras and everything, I don´t need to bring my own.

BTW, I´m having a custom built Nikon mount built hopefully this week for the F35, which is great, because I have a ton of nikon lenses and this will open the door to cheap but high quality optics on this camera that I can use when traveling. Also, believe it or not, the whole camera package, including lenses, V-mount batteries + charger, evf and hyperdeck fit in this bag, which was designed for an HVX200: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002PU9SQU/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

So while not comparable in size to a DSLR, it's definitely manageable.

[Grug]

Haha, an F35 for birthday parties?! Wow... :beer:

So you don't actually expect to use it for paid work?

[macgregor]

I don't think so. But maybe I rent it to friends who shoot lower budget productions.

[Emanuel]

Nice thread you have here, Miguel. My personal compliments :-)


Colorimetry on F3 and C300 are not in the same ballpark as Red, and not even worth comparing it with the F35.
Aside F35 or other camera comparisons, RAW will always be superior as far as color goes, it doesn't matter what.

And uncompressed can also help it, no matter the quality of codec we have.

This test recent shot by Frank says a lot. Yet, it is very likely useless to remind he has preached in these same boards for uncompressed use as much as possible, even when we have the media storage each day more affordable these days. He is fully right, (de)pending on budget and other circumstances, of course.


https://vimeo.com/48407841

[Samuel H]

If two cameras are using the same sensor, and your in-PC software is not any worse than your in-camera image processing, then recording RAW will always be best. But if the sensor is different, or if your software can't take as much from it as the in-camera image processing, then you could actually get better colors in camera than shooting RAW and doing all the color work in post. The sensor in the BMC seems great, though (if small). And the software to work with RAW video may not be any worse than the in-camera processing, and will definitely get better in the coming years.

[macgregor]

Nice thread you have here, Miguel. My personal compliments :-)


Aside F35 or other camera comparisons, RAW will always be superior as far as color goes, it doesn't matter what.

And uncompressed can also help it, no matter the quality of codec we have.

This test recent shot by Frank says a lot. Yet, it is very likely useless to remind he has preached in these same boards for uncompressed use as much as possible, even when we have the media storage each day more affordable these days. He is fully right, (de)pending on budget and other circumstances, of course.


https://vimeo.com/48407841

Dude, you´re comparing cheap prosumer cameras there.

There is this missconception out there about RAW being the holy grial, and the truth is that it is not. You're basically shifting processes from the camera to your PC. To me, the advantage of shooting RAW in a camera such as the RED is that you can change your WB setting easily. Other than that, there is no advantage really. Since you´re going to end up exporting as Redlog film anyway if you plan on doing heavy color correction.
There is no more DR in a RAW file than in a gamma encoded high bit file (specially if it was log encoded).

In cameras such as the F35 or Alexa, the linear image (that would be otherwise recorded as RAW) gets demosaiced and processed in the camera circuit boards. In the Red, you have to do it in your PC. Given the same quality output (10bit 444 for example), I´ll take the 1st option, thanks. It will save me a lot of time.

[Emanuel]

Dude, you´re comparing cheap prosumer cameras there.

There is this missconception out there about RAW being the holy grial, and the truth is that it is not. You're basically shifting processes from the camera to your PC. To me, the advantage of shooting RAW in a camera such as the RED is that you can change your WB setting easily. Other than that, there is no advantage really. Since you´re going to end up exporting as Redlog film anyway if you plan on doing heavy color correction.
There is no more DR in a RAW file than in a gamma encoded high bit file (specially if it was log encoded).

In cameras such as the F35 or Alexa, the linear image (that would be otherwise recorded as RAW) gets demosaiced and processed in the camera circuit boards. In the Red, you have to do it in your PC. Given the same quality output (10bit 444 for example), I´ll take the 1st option, thanks. It will save me a lot of time.Well, it should be 'cause I still remember your Z1 days or it was a FX...? LOL ;-)

Nevermind... we were speaking about color isn't? Because the fact that's a lowlight test, this doesn't mean we can't use it for testing (our eyes) on other issues such as color, the previous quote of yours I quoted, after all.

In any case, I concur other conclusion you got from a previous quote of yours. DR in highlights is a way different than over shadows. I can't only subscribe what you say about RAW on post processing as far as color concerns, as for instance. You don't mention, you simply reduce it to WB setting. RAW is beyond that. You as good hispanic even from the motherland Iberian Peninsula : ) should know we can practice a sin not only for deeds but also for omissions :D

Because you see RED in my signature, it is not implicit you're speaking with a RED fanboy ...straight away :P

E. :-)

[Spartacus]

Miguel, so what lensmount adapter do you use? I thought Nikon lenses on a PL body doesn´t work because of the flange distance? And when you overexpose in your "LA" test, the Sun burns to nasty colors, why doesn´t it just clip to white? Is that the CCD behavior? Is there anything else to watch for when opting for a used F35? Any parts that have likely been damaged / worn out after years in rental...?
Also, it would be AMAZING if you could make some seconds of the ungraded test footage available for download, to play around with it ;)

[macgregor]

Grab this high quality file:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/LA.mp4

Some shots in this test have not been graded (if it looks really flat it's not graded). But I´ve added a layer of grain on top to make it more filmic, the F35 is actually pretty clean in terms of noise. I´ve also blown up a shot to double the resolution to see how re-framing workins in a 1080p timeline. I won't tell you what shot is that. XD

The F35 uses a global shutter CCD instead of a CMOS. The benefit is zero rolling shutter artifacts but the downside is that in the event of really really strong lights, such as the sun, you might get smear (a vertical ugly flare). However, in this clip, I did the worst thing you can do, which is pointing the camera to the sun, and over expose the shot by like 5 or 6 stops to see the effect (2:05). If you noticed at 2:08, the shot is properly exposed and the ugly artifacts are gone. So this issue is not something I'd worry too much.
Also the sensor native color temperature is around 3200ºK so you won't get noise in the blue channel when you get indoors and switch WB to tungsten like in many other cameras.

The camera was sold only with PL mount. I have some old PL mount lenses around (which I might sell BTW) and I'm having a custom built Nikon mount done this week. We'll see if it works. It didn't look too difficult to make.

The F35 is a very high end camera, and only rental houses could afford them. Therefore I'd suspect they were well maintained. There are no moving parts except for a shutter that covers the sensor and the body is built like a tank. All cameras I´ve seen have marks of being used but I'd say that´s normal. In the maintenance menu you can check the hours of operations. Those on ebay we talked about have between 1500 and 2100 hours.

Firmware upgrades are free of charge (or were free since I doubt there will be any more) and the latest one added 12bit output and 60p 444. All you need is a memory stick to load it.

About viewfinders: The ideal viewfinder for this camera is the C30WR http://www.abelcine.com/store/Sony-HDVF-C30WR-2.7-HD-Color-LCD-Viewfinder/
But since that viewfinder will cost you almost as much as the camera itself, I guess you´ll be looking for some alternatives. I´m currently using the zacuto evf pro since I already had a couple of those and it´s very light. It´s actually pretty good and I wonder if it´s worth it for me to upgrade to the Alphatron. Obviously a sony evf will be better since you can use the evf output and have framing guides and all that, but with the alphatron you could also do that since the camera has 4 sdi outputs, you can tell one of the outputs to output the evf signal (so you can use the alphatron) and have a clean SDI to the blackmagic recorder. Pretty smart.

About shoulder mount and rods, I was interesed in a very lightweight solution so I just ordered some Tilta and Lanparteparts, so well see how those work.

The camera has 3 modes of operation, which in the end you can summarized in 2: video mode, where it works like a F900 and you have tons of adjustments, gamma curves, color matrixes etc, and cine mode, which just outputs slog, and can only choose framerate and shutter speed. No more options. I love it. That's the way I use it.

[macgregor]

60316


One more detail about this camera is the way it handles highlights. For the first time in video I don´t care that much if something is clipped in the background. The transition between detail and overexposure on this camera is very peculiar. Very natural. Look for example at the highlights in the rails and how they are bloomy, just like in film, when a very strong light hits the film, the light is slightly scattered producing the same effect.

[Spartacus]

Thanks Miguel !!!

[morgan_moore]

Mac it looks really great.

S

[Emanuel]

The most interesting in this last picture is or are (because it is complexity we're speaking of) the different layers of exposure comprehending three (?... maybe four) distinct plans, being two of them completely or apparently secondary before of another one on front page. Trademark of this remarkable cinematographer since the good old times with the chicks ; ) Hope you don't lose yourself, Miguel. Sincerely :-)

[Grug]

Thanks again for sharing all this info Miguel, because the camera's only ever been owned by rental companies really - it's almost impossible to find much in the way of operational reports on the camera.

The super simple Cine Mode sounds perfect to me, does it give you Gain control as well as Shutter Angle and Frame Rate (or does it lock you into the default 500 ISO)?

Paired up with Gemini 4:4:4 recorder (once they've enabled DNxHD on it), I reckon it'd be just about perfect for my needs - with the exception of having to upgrade my jib etc. to cope with the extra weight (though without one of the behemoth Sony/Codex recorders on the back of it, it shouldn't be any heavier than an Alexa).

The only thing keeping an F3 in the equation for me, is the significantly greater low-light capabilities.

[macgregor]

Hi Grug!
In Cine mode, and the latest firmware upgrade, the way the ISO is handled is similar to the Red/epic and the Alexa. The sensor has a certain dynamic range, and increasing the ISO just maps the mid grey into a different zone.
Now the camera officially performs its best at 450ISO, which we can round up to 500ISO. I believe you can go also choose 640, 800 and 1000. Now the recording information is going to be the same, but in your monitors you are going to see an image that is brighter. So the principle is exactly the same as with those other cameras except that the signal recorded is Slog, so it will be in color grading, where you have to map that mid gray to the ISO you shot. Which means basically just grading the footage as you would do normally.

With the Gemini this camera will definitely rock. There's also one good thing about recording in DNxHD and that is that the avid codec is a full range codec, and some other codecs like prores or uncompressed 422, only show you the limited range signal. And Slog is a full range gamma curve. So there might be hidden information if you ar recording in those codecs that is not easy to access, and therefore you'd be lossing dynamic range. This issue does not happen with DNxHD. ;D

In terms of weight, F35 and Alexa are pretty close. Maybe the sony is 1-2 pounds lighter (including the hyperdeck)

An F3 might be better in low light for sure, but man, no comparison, really.

[Spartacus]

So how far can the F35 be pushed? Wasn´t Collateral shot with it (or was it the F23)? In your test shots when you were inside that coridor/house, it looked good IMHO - how far was this pushed? I´m interested in the documentary capabilities of the F35, on a movie set you can always add light, and the difference to a F3 becomes irrelevant. But if the image is as clean as Miguel states and the codec holds up, I guess lower light might not be a problem at all. And hell the F3's picture is nice, but the F35 looks AMAZING. And it should, considering prices when compared both used... ;)

[macgregor]

So how far can the F35 be pushed? Wasn´t Collateral shot with it (or was it the F23)? In your test shots when you were inside that coridor/house, it looked good IMHO - how far was this pushed? I´m interested in the documentary capabilities of the F35, on a movie set you can always add light, and the difference to a F3 becomes irrelevant. But if the image is as clean as Miguel states and the codec holds up, I guess lower light might not be a problem at all. And hell the F3's picture is nice, but the F35 looks AMAZING. And it should, considering prices when compared both used... ;)


Nonono, Collateral is F900/viper as far as I know. Really ugly in my opinion.

If you need low light, I wouldn´t go with the F35, I wouldn't even consider the F3, I'd go with the C300, it´s just crazy how clean footage is at super high ISOs.

[Spartacus]

Yeah, but so far the C300 hasn't convinced me to be very "cinematic". In the sense of "picture mojo" if you know what I mean. All personal taste of course. It can produce great looking videos though and I'd use it for everything I´d normally shoot on a 2/3" ENG camera, adding all of the DSLR-like advantages.

[macgregor]

Yep, so you have to choose: cinematic vs mega high ISOs.

[Spartacus]

With an extra D800 I could (almost) have both, right? ;)

[Emanuel]

Yeah, but so far the C300 hasn't convinced me to be very "cinematic". In the sense of "picture mojo" if you know what I mean. All personal taste of course. (...)It is all a matter of (among other stuff coming from shooting for sure) grading too:

http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/media-gallery.php

C500's Man and Beast, cinematographed by Jeff Cronenweth.

There, we can find both more videoish or film-like styles depending on what we choose, of course...

There's nothing less fair than to label RED outcome, as for instance, as videoish. Here's an example:

60387
RED ONE MX footage -> KODAK VISION 3 look

[Spartacus]

Emanuel, the C500 looks really good in Man and Beast. I wasn´t off to start the old "videoish vs filmic" debate, because as I said, it often boils down to personal taste. Similar to film days, when people preferred one filmstock over another and only used certain lenses - in the end all TRUE filmlook ;o)
I still drool over the F35's image output...

[macgregor]

Man and Beast looks videoish.
Red footage looks videoish.
:beer:

[Emanuel]

Emanuel, the C500 looks really good in Man and Beast. I wasn´t off to start the old "videoish vs filmic" debate, because as I said, it often boils down to personal taste. Similar to film days, when people preferred one filmstock over another and only used certain lenses - in the end all TRUE filmlook ;o)
I still drool over the F35's image output...Christian, I also like the F35 output... And concur on the quality of its DR over the highlights à la film stock.

C500's piece (Man and Beast) is an ultimate example where both can apply, even on the reverse range. Actually, Canon's main intention of their propaganda department. Same for RED.

I only try to illustrate that any label is only reducing the purpose of filmmaking, other than good work can afford. More centered on the skills of a craft than the device itself. The same magic or logic Miguel was used to offer us from consumer cams.

[PS:] Here's another good C series (C300) example -- please, scroll down the page if you never shot/graded properly (with) one :-)

http://www.cinemaeosuser.net/index.php?/topic/58-c300-for-documentary-work/

[Emanuel]

man and beast looks videoish.
Red footage looks videoish.
:beer:

60436

: D

[macgregor]

Finally I now have a Nikon mount for the F35 ready and so far it seems to work. I'll post pictures soon.

I've been playing with Slog color space conversions getting some nice results. Have a look here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?293726-Slog-color-management-in-Vegas-12&p=1986213925&highlight=#post1986213925

[macgregor]

Oficial presentation finally.
I'm still waiting for the VCT-14 quickrelease, but other than that, I'm pretty happy with the result:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/sundaycar/DSC_5299.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/sundaycar/DSC_5303.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/sundaycar/DSC_5304.jpg

[bill totolo]

Nice!

[Grug]

Looks great! I've never seen the F35 look so 'manageable' before. Lightweight recorders really transform the camera.

How secure does the camera feel mounted from the bottom of the Lanparte Baseplate? Does it support the weight well?

[bill totolo]

And how are those Tilta Arms?

[Pelican]

Very nice setup, and it looks so much more manageable w/o the giant sony deck on the back. Is that a Vmount batt on back, a BM shuttle, and what's sandwiched between them?

[Pelican]

Really appreciate if you could post some additional F35 footage. It's really hard to find, especially from small independents (without big-budget production and post, which can make just about any camera look great).
BTW, are you able to trigger that shuttle start/stop with the with camera?

[macgregor]

Very nice setup, and it looks so much more manageable w/o the giant sony deck on the back. Is that a Vmount batt on back, a BM shuttle, and what's sandwiched between them?

It's the breakout box, with SDI outputs, mic inputs, and power to the camera. I might find a way to get rid of it in the future if I find a way to re-route the power. The camera is much smaller in person than in the pics but the smaller the better for me.

[macgregor]

Really appreciate if you could post some additional F35 footage. It's really hard to find, especially from small independents (without big-budget production and post, which can make just about any camera look great).
BTW, are you able to trigger that shuttle start/stop with the with camera?
Unfortunately it doesn't work. One of the biggest downsides actually...

And a couple "raw" files straight from the recorder for you to play:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Capture0134.mov
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Capture0141.mov

[macgregor]

And how are those Tilta Arms?

Tilta arms, tilta follow focus, and lanparte baseplate modified to get rid of the quick release in order to have a lower center of gravity and a more solid configuration.

The tilta arms are good, but the bridge that connects to the rods is not tight enough. Or was not the other day. I need to test it more.
The tilta arm for the zacuto EVF is really really good.
The baseplate is really light, and cheap, compared to the other alternative I had which was an Arri baseplate+bridgeplate+mantis.
The tilta follow focus is just amazing. Definitely the best in the low budget market that I've tried and it feels as good as an Arri FF4. I will test it more this week.

[Pelican]

By the way, for anyone interested, there's a F35 on ebay for $14k BIN. Pretty tempting..

[Pelican]

Miguel,
Thanks for the raw files. Do you have any projects planned for this camera?

[macgregor]

A couple birthday parties and one wedding...

[Grug]

A couple birthday parties and one wedding...

Only in America! :cheesy:

[Spartacus]

This thing is killing my sleep grrrrr...
Can you tell me more about the PL to Nikon adapter, please?
And maybe could take a photo with this thing on your shoulder...?
And: You will habe to post some wedding/birthday footage soon... ;)

[Grug]

By the way, for anyone interested, there's a F35 on ebay for $14k BIN. Pretty tempting..

And the price on it has dropped to $13k now! :shocked:

I came within a bee's d**k of buying it a couple of days ago, I've been tossing and turning and losing sleep over the decision for over a week (none of it made any easier by the tasty footage Miguel's been posting) but an incredible deal on an almost new F3 came up, and for the lighting and support kit I already have - I simply wouldn't be able to get as much out of the F35 as I could from the F3 (with its light weight and tremendous low-light ability), so I've gone with the smaller camera for now.

[macgregor]

Will post soon.

[Samuel H]

eagerly awaiting - really love the image you're getting out of your new camera

[Pelican]

I'm in line to see more footage! Thanks.

[nebular]

Well, the dynamic range is good, but seems to be at the expense of color: the greens are grey, the reds are not reds and the whole image is flat and not pleasing (it is not cinema-like). And the camera cannot retain focus when the guy moves, or when he does not and there is zooming by even a small amount.

I don't care what the camera is; this is unimpressive video performance.

This is kind of sad. So many video guys cry for that 'film-look', but just dont know anymore, how film really looks.

From your examples, the F35 must have the most 'film-look' out-of-the-box ever. Impressive!

[macgregor]

Finally! Sony F35 official debut. :)

Today I could finally take a couple of snapshots of my new toy.
So why is this new if it has been out there for about 3 years? Because now I can swap between PL and Nikon mounts, and I no longer need to carry the heavy HDCAM deck. With the Hyperdeck attached (thanks velcro) this things can record uncompressed 10bit 422 or DNxHD at 185Mbits.

Awesome for documentaries and guerrilla productions !!!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/f35studio.jpg

[Grug]

Or birthday parties :p looks terrific Miguel.

[jambredz]

Mack...how do you like the tilta FF?

[macgregor]

It's really really good... except that I get friction in a part of the wheel, so I'm going to contact the reseller to see what's going on.

[Spartacus]

More F35 camera porn !!! So you´re just shooting birthdays and weddings with it - like for the Trumps or Hiltons? Yeah right ;o)

Don´t forget to post sth final from your baby... ;)

Won´t sleep well again tonight, thanks Miguel...

[macgregor]

Are you going for the one on ebay?

[Spartacus]

PMed you.

[Emanuel]

(...) and guerrilla productions !!!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/f35studio.jpgYour humor is in high shape, Miguel :beer:

[Grug]

Are you going for the one on ebay?

I just got outbid on that by $100 :( It went for about $7400. Just crazy.

[macgregor]

Wow, so who got it?

[Grug]

I believe the technical term for them is "A Lucky Bastard".

[Derek Chingwell]

I just got outbid on that by $100 :( It went for about $7400. Just crazy.

You may have been beaten by $100, but the winner probably put on a lot more with a few seconds left... or used an autobidder with a higher value locked in (say $10K or $12K) . When you bid in the last few seconds and do it 'by hand', you can only bid a few times... and you won't be able to react quickly enough... but the autobidder will keep going in the background and try to beat anyone who bids (but it doesn't 'lock in' like a max bid on Ebay itself).

So, the other bidder was probably prepared to go a lot higher :)

I was caught out many times on EvilBay (LOL), where I would try and get a bargain and wait until the last minute... only to loose out by a few $... until I was introduced to the autobidding (at the last minute) concept... then, the way some Ebay auctions go made sense to me.

Not that I win many items - I always want a bargain!

[Spartacus]

Same here, I waited till the last 15 seconds and got outbid. But, you never know how high the other goes. I put my limit lower than I could have, I wanted it to be a "bargain" to have a save zone for all the extras, I maybe didn´t think of at first (eg a different recorder, that could do ProRes).
Still want to see Miguel putting his baby in gear for a paid project (and then will curse myself again for chickening out and not bidding higher grrrrrr).

[macgregor]

Same here, I waited till the last 15 seconds and got outbid. But, you never know how high the other goes. I put my limit lower than I could have, I wanted it to be a "bargain" to have a save zone for all the extras, I maybe didn´t think of at first (eg a different recorder, that could do ProRes).
Still want to see Miguel putting his baby in gear for a paid project (and then will curse myself again for chickening out and not bidding higher grrrrrr).

Oh, I already made 2000euros last week with it...

[Spartacus]

Hehe I know, mate! NOW SHOW US THE FOOTAGE!!! :beer:

[Pelican]

+1 - some interior shots!
"NOW SHOW US THE FOOTAGE!!! "

[macgregor]

Greetings from Panama...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwK-Jsk1Lk8&feature=youtu.be

[Spartacus]

OK, you win.

;)

Great Detail, great DR.
Just the YT compression SUCKS.

More please!

[StMad]

Mmm, nothing like a serving of nice filmic sound to go with your nice filmic footage.

[Samuel H]

as expected, very nice :)

[Editman Sweden]

Very nice indeed. That could be the start of an action feature set in the jungle.

[Samuel H]

I was thinking more "Gorillas in the Myst" than "Predator", but definitely yes

[Editman Sweden]

Turn around... over here... I ain't afraid of no man... what the hell are you...

[James0b57]

Turn around... over here... I ain't afraid of no man... what the hell are you...
Instant reaction to this comment? Where's the 'like' button? Haha!

[James0b57]

Dispite the DR specs on this camera, it has some nice highlights. I was watching the trailer for Contagion, and was seeing how fragile the whites and blown out lights looked (Red MX). Of course, I would like a little more gentleness in the highlights still, but this camera does work its limits gracefully. I would say it looks like organic electronics.

Do you have a pic of someone holding/operating in a minimalist documentary style setup? Difficult to get a sense of size with the pics on line since most are spec'd out for cinema and penis size comparing.

This kind of shows how small the core camera can be, if you use the imagination to remove the SR recorder and swap out a smaller lens.http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2792/4519655392_d107210e23_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35765887@N02/4519655392/)Sony F35 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35765887@N02/4519655392/) by sharisent (http://www.flickr.com/people/35765887@N02/), on Flickr

Looks like a block that was the C300 before the C300 was carved into a more ergonomic shape.

[macgregor]

Despite the DR specs...? The specs show it's quite a step ahead the red MX sensor.
There are pics of the camera without the SR deck if you go back in this thread. And I'm also working on making it smaller by removing the XLR inputs module. That would reduce its size by an extra 20%. :D

[James0b57]

Despite the DR specs...? The specs show it's quite a step ahead the red MX sensor.
There are pics of the camera without the SR deck if you go back in this thread. And I'm also working on making it smaller by removing the XLR inputs module. That would reduce its size by an extra 20%. :D


Sorry, perhaps I read these out of context, and considering that it is based on the Genesis, I see why the highlights are so nice. Naturally, I never much paid attention to the f35 when it was a $200k camera.


If I´m not mistaken, that´s the same test used for this chart, right?

58087

This kind of illustrates my point. It´s not how much DR you have, it´s where you have it (I still take these tests with caution, there are too many things I didn't agree with when I watched them).


According to the SCCE, the F35 clocked in at 11.3 stops of dynamic range, and the F3 (withOUT S-Log) clocked in at 11.2. So I would expect that you're right, the SLog'd F3 would definitely have more DR than the F35.


As compared to an F3, the F35 is definitely quite a bit higher res; the SCCE clocked it at 680 lines, the F3 at 540. But nowhere near what the Red MX showed, which was 1080 lines.

Numbers and comparisons taken from this article (http://nofilmschool.com/2011/05/numbers-single-chip-camera-evaluation-conducted/).

When I say 'despite the DR', I mean it is not drastically different in strict DR numbers from a Red MX, but is better from what I see in your footage than the Red one MX, when it comes to capturing tonality on white objects. I totally agree with the way the engineers distributed the DR on the f35/Genesis.


Another 20% smaller would be nice! =)

[macgregor]

Yeah well, some film stock is not much wider in terms of DR than RED MX, but heck it looks so much better, doesn't it? It's the combination of where the DR is, the tone curve, and the colorimetry.

[bill totolo]

Greetings from Panama...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpCfUjWYJow

I hate to sound like a fan-boy, but that is flipping gorgeous.

[James0b57]

Yeah well, some film stock is not much wider in terms of DR than RED MX, but heck it looks so much better, doesn't it? It's the combination of where the DR is, the tone curve, and the colorimetry.
Yes, absolutely! =)

[bill totolo]

Greetings from Panama...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpCfUjWYJow

Hey Mac, would you allow us to download that clip?
Lots of macro blocking on YouTube in the high-frequencies.

Thanks,

[macgregor]

Here you go: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/panama.mp4


Some specs:
- shot with a toking 11-16 and a nikon 35-70 ais. So no fancy glass here.
- the interior of the rainforest is very very dark, and the shots of the leaves were easily underexposed by 1 or 2 stops
- these clips were slightly graded on davinci. Basically what I do is apply a custom LUT that I created to get the gamma right from Slog footage. It also works in Sony Vegas. If I have time one of these days I'll post the LUTs and explain how they work.

I'll post more stuff soon.

[macgregor]

Oh, did I say it does Timelapses too? lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrAEvR3DZeU

[James0b57]

Oh, did I say it does Timelapses too? lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrAEvR3DZeU
lol

[bill totolo]

I just ran this through PP. I think Slog is a powerful tool, no matter the camera:

https://vimeo.com/53206376
PW: nina


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMN1G7uCjWs&feature=youtu.be

This was shot in July, so the subject had a bit of a sun burn.

[macgregor]

Here you go, some more footage. I couldn't avoid the Thin red line soundtrack... :cheesy:

Note: content warning - extremely boring video. Watch with caution.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=812Cvi5SxGE#!

[Grug]

She's got some mojo that camera, she's got her some serious mojo.

[bill totolo]

What are you using out there, Miguel, a dolly, a jib?
Looks nice, btw.

[macgregor]

A dolly.

[James0b57]

Here you go, some more footage. I couldn't avoid the Thin red line soundtrack... :cheesy:

You have an awesome sense of humor, and mean visual talent. I hate not being you sometimes.

[bill totolo]

Are you using an ISCO in front of one of your Nikons, Miguel?

[macgregor]

Nah, it's just the Malick lens flare plugin in post. :cheesy:

Now seriously:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/vlcsnap-2012-11-11-23h56m45s157.png
This is the Thin red line.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/vlcsnap-2012-11-14-09h25m31s154.jpg
This is the F35.

Notice how the highlights clip in both images...

[bill totolo]

Explain that horizontal streak...

[Samuel H]

There's no need to try to convince us any further that you can shoot amazing images with this camera. We are all already convinced. Now you're just being mean and making everybody envy you :) More seriously, I'll add: apart from your tests, one movie I watched recently made me realize how great the images from this camera can look: Under the Hawthorn Tree, by Zhang Yimou. Not the best movie I've seen (I'd give it a 6 out of 10), but it looks absolutely gorgeous, I spent the whole time thinking "wow this looks so great, definitely shot on film, digital still has a long way to go", then went to IMDB to check... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1554523/technical

[Samuel H]

Of course, cinematographer and crew and colorist and everything else have a lot to do with that: I've seen films shot on RED which looked awfully digital, and also some that look gorgeous (the best one, probably, The Secret in Their Eyes, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1305806/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1305806/technical http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/05/13/run-dont-walk-to-see-this-film/ really great movie apart from the looks: made in Argentina with a $2M budget, worldwide box office $34M, Oscar for Best Foreign Language Film)

[macgregor]

Explain that horizontal streak...

I just painted the line on top Bill. :)

[macgregor]

Today I've changed the rainforest for something slightly... colder.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image5.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image3.jpg


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image4.jpg

[Grug]

Gorgeous stuff, are you travelling for work Miguel or just to make us envious with camera tests?

[bill totolo]

When do we get to see some flesh tones?
Keep up the good work (and try to keep warm).

[macgregor]

Soon soon!

[Greyfus Wolf]

I was just wondering how did you get everything to work together on it ?
What other than the camera itself do you need for a minimum working shooting setup and how long does the camera take to boot up ?

Sorry for asking so much I was just wondering because the footage that comes out of this camera is amazing :)

[macgregor]

Well. If you just get the body only what you're going to need is:
- batteries
- battery plate
- recorder
- viewfinder

For batteries I opted for Vmount and I got 2 big batteries plus a charger for like $1200. Each battery runs the camera for about... maybe 90 minutes? Actually maybe more than that, but have in mind that I'm powering other things with the same battery.
Battery plate for Vmount batteries, you can get it at bhphoto or ebay. It was like $120-150 I think.
Recorder, easiest and most convinient for me was the hyperdeck shuttle: $320. And add as many SDDs as you want. I have Crucials 128GB for like $95 and you can record more than an hour of footage in each.
Then about EVF, for now I went the easy rute and gave my zacuto EVF a 2nd life. Of course you can get a sony one or an alphatron if you wish for an extra $1300.
Minimum package add ons then: $2500 aprox (but can change depending on what you already have).

With this, you're ready to go out and shoot. Of course you'll need lenses but that's a different subject.

I then wanted some kind of rods support for a follow focus and a shoulder pad. But I wanted a very lightweight kit, so I ruled out the arri, crosszield, red and element technica solutions. And I ended up getting a lamparte base plate which includes a shoulder pad ($350)which I modified a bit to make it smaller and a quickrelease sony plate ($120). Then I got a tilta follow focus which was also very cheap.

Have a look at the setup here:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/f35studio.jpg

I'm also working in getting rid of the breackoutbox, but waiting on a lemo connector to see if it can be done.

[Greyfus Wolf]

Oh thank you very much for the information :)
I already have some v-mount batteries and a switronix v-mount plate from using the RED Scarlet in the past so they should probably work well, but the connector is a Lemo - http://woodencamera.corecommerce.com/QB-Switronix-V-Mount.html
Wonder if that would fit in the DC-in of the F35 ....
As for lenses well, I don't know if there are any cheap PL mount lenses available other than the rehoused RED 18-50mm T3 zoom, I think I saw some going for less than $3000, would be great if the mount was detachable and interchangable

Noticed from the pictures you posted above that you have attached the interface box on the back of the camera, is that compulsory for shooting with the camera or can it be removed if not needed ?
Also any idea how long it takes to boot up the camera from cold ?

[macgregor]

Your Vmount plate should work, except for the cable. But that connector is really easy to replace, you'll need to change the lemo for a power XLR cable. $5 and done.
About lenses, I got a bunch of zeiss glass in PL mount for cheap (medium format lenses) but I haven't played with it yet since they are in LA and I'm overseas right now.
However I had a nikon mount custom built so I can use Nikon glass in the camera. Pretty awesome and easier than I thought to build. The mount is actually detachable, not something you want to do every day, but totally doable. So I have two mounts, nikon and PL.
The breackout box, you can put it behind or on top. The reason why you need it is because that's where the Vmount battery plate attaches to and where one of the 2 input power connectors are located. It's lightweight tough. You can remove it if you find a way to attach the battery and that's what I'm currently investigating.

The camera takes about 5-8 seconds to boot up. I've shot in Iceland at -5 C and it was fine.

[macgregor]

Wow, I'm surprised. I just put the camera in a weight scale, with everything as shown in the pictures (shoulder pad, zoom lens, battery, hyperdeck, viewfinder, follow focus) and it's... 10 Kgs! Exactly 10 Kgs, 22 pounds.

A red one fully loaded used to be way more than that. And Alexa... well the alexa is a bag of concrete. :cheesy:

[Greyfus Wolf]

That's pretty good weight for a shooting setup for a 4 year old + camera and yeah the Alexa already weighs 10 KG body alone so...

[macgregor]

In order to convert the PL mount into nikon you have to "destroy" the PL mount. THe new nikon mount is going to fit inside the PL mount so you need to remove a bit of metal and add some support from behind. Definately a work for a professional unless you're talented and have the gear for this. It's actually simple to make if you have the knowledge.
If you want to keep the PL mount then you'll need to purchase another PL mount to have it converted to Nikon, so you can swap one with the other depending on the project.

I just got a 2nd body. At current prices (cheaper than F3 or C300) this is the bargain of the century. Sure it's a 4 year old camera, but don't let that fool you. It's in a different league in terms of image quality.

[mlysbakken]

So did you send the camera to someone for converting, or is it possible to just order the custom nikon mount and install it yourself? I believe you have the swapable system, right?

Thanks for all the posts and sample footage! I bought an f35 today - can't wait to put it through its paces.

[macgregor]

I had it custom made at a lens shop. What I did was ordering a Nikon-EOS mount on ebay and then have that attached inside the PL mount. Since the flange focal distance in PL is larger than Nikon, they have to remove a bit of metal. I had two mounts, so I didn't mind "destroying" one of them to make it into a nikon mount.

The F35 has a great and easy to use flange focal distance adjustment screw, so together with a collimator, you can absolutely match the right distance to the sensor.

[mlysbakken]

Thanks! I'll look into that. I just sent an email to a Norwegian lens shop to get a price estimate from them.
In what way did you modify the Lanparte baseplate, by the way? I presume it would be unsafe to mount the f35 directly to the little quick-release plate, seeing as it's a small one made for dlsrs?

[macgregor]

Correct. What I did was remove the small DSLR quickrelease plate and base, and then have the big flat plate attached to the bottom of the camera. The modification to it was making the holes big enough for a 3/8" screw. I also add a rubber pad in between camera and base plate.

The lens shop will need to see the mount in order to give you an estimate. ALso you have to decide if you want a Nikon G lens mount or a standard one. I say, it will be more simple and cheaper to go with the normal one. I have the G (which controls the iris too) but unless you have G lenses (planing on getting some rokinon and AIS?) it's not worth it, since the hours to make it work will be more.

Just ask them how much they charge per hour, and count on 4-8 hours of work depending on how fast they are. Add a nikon-eos adapter (20usd?)and 5 minutes in the collimator (remember to have the camera On since the mechanical shutter needs to be open). And done!

[mlysbakken]

What about the two square parts that stick up on the original Lanparte baseplate. Did you have to remove them as well? Wouldn't that cause some reliability issues?

[macgregor]

which ones?

[mlysbakken]

These ones: 64097

[macgregor]

Removed.

[mlysbakken]

Thanks! Is the battery plate a Sony BKP-L551? What do you think of that unit compared to more inexpensive solutions like the one Greyfus mentioned?

[macgregor]

I've seen the Sony one for lke $200 and I know there are even cheaper versions out there from other brands.

[hunter richards]

Miguel is a terrible influence ; )


6414964148

I dont know what ive gotten myself into, I dont even have a lens yet...

[mlysbakken]

Last question, hehe: How did you manage to attach the Hyperdeck to the battery? Aren't they both smooth on the back?
I've been thinking about using velcro, but I doubt that will be safe.

[Grug]

Congrats Hunter! What are you planning to record to?

[macgregor]

Last question, hehe: How did you manage to attach the Hyperdeck to the battery? Aren't they both smooth on the back?
I've been thinking about using velcro, but I doubt that will be safe.

After weeks of working with the hyperdeck, velcro hasn't failed a single time. Actually it would be easier to de-attach the Vmount battery by a hit than the hyperdeck attached with 2" velcro. Velcro it's undestructuble. And light.

[hunter richards]

Grug- Thanks! I have a project with a ton of interviews in march, was planning on shooting all hdcamSR on that. Other than that I will just use the hyperdeck (there is actually one in my pic if you can spot it).

[Kholi]

Hyperdeck weighs like nothing. Velcro is completely fine, heck I've had the unit up against my shoulder while opin'g and the velcro shifted at the most, unit never fell off.

Hunter gonna Nikon mount it?

[hunter richards]

Yeah, im going to try to Nikon mount it, but I need another lens mount first so I don't have to destroy the PL one.

[mcgeedigital]

Good to see you jump in Hunter, cant wait to see what you do with it!

[dustylense]

Holy dumplings, that forest footage is incredible! How about posting the seascape footage!

[macgregor]

Oh man, I love this camera:

Original:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image4%20%282%29.jpg

Graded:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image5%20%282%29.jpg

As sharp as the Samsara bluray?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/Image3%20%282%29.jpg

[jambredz]

yikes. looks great

[mlysbakken]

The stuff you manage to get out of this thing is quite incredible, macgregor. Hats off!

My camera arrived today. Can't wait to put it through its paces, but have to receive an AC adapter and a couple of V-mount batteries first. Sadly, one of the accessory mount levers on the camera was broken. I'm trying to get a replacement from sony, but I might have to come up with a DIY solution. Have any of you guys noticed any flimsiness in your levers?

[macgregor]

The stuff you manage to get out of this thing is quite incredible, macgregor. Hats off!

My camera arrived today. Can't wait to put it through its paces, but have to receive an AC adapter and a couple of V-mount batteries first. Sadly, one of the accessory mount levers on the camera was broken. I'm trying to get a replacement from sony, but I might have to come up with a DIY solution. Have any of you guys noticed any flimsiness in your levers?

Welcome to the team!
What did it break exactly?

[mlysbakken]

Thanks! One of the clamps/levers/locks that you use to attach the interface box or HDCAM SR deck to the rear of the camera. It's the long thingy with numbers and a hinge on it.

[macgregor]

Oh crap, that's bad. I think that part is "expensive". Like $300. :violin:

[mlysbakken]

By the way, Miguel, I just realized you bought your cam from the same guy as me and you mentioned in another thread that you tested them all. Did any of them seem less durable than the others?
I bought the one with serial number 10098, but I haven't tested it yet since I'm still waiting for batteries.

[macgregor]

I think the one you got, 10098, was the more beaten up, but nothing excessive. It's from Otto Nemenz, and I'm sure they take good care of their equipment.
I can't remmeber for sure, but does it have something like 2100 hours?

[mlysbakken]

Yeah, it's the one from Otto Nemenz. Don't know how many hours it's got, since I haven't been able to turn it on yet, but as you say it's got its fair share of bruises. Apart from the broken lever they all seem to be mostly cosmetical, though.
I originally tried to get the one with included viewfinder and SR deck, but it was snapped up by someone else at the last second. It may have been Hunter, hehe!
Did your cameras come with an additional faceplate? The additional one appears to have a different mount than the original, but I haven't been able to identify it yet...

[macgregor]

Faceplate? You mean PL mount? If you have that, I'm sure Hunter will be interested in it.

Don't worry about the bruices. THe magnesium these cameras are made of, gets scratched really easily. Just as an example, my camera has got more bruises in the few months I've had it than in the 2-3 years at Otto nemenz.

[mlysbakken]

64740
Not just a lens mount, but a complete front plate that can be replaced with the original one. The interesting thing is that this one seems to have a different lens mount with a much shorter flange distance. Able to identify it?

[mlysbakken]

Nah, forget it! It's the same. Just checked it a bit more thorougly... :(

[macgregor]

Yes yes, I have the same thing.
It's the same mount (it all goes in one piece), same flange distance once you assemble it. If you compare the one in your camera with this one, you'll see this one is missing the power connetor on the bottom. So my understanding is that at some point, Sony replaced the mounts. I don't think you'll ever need this, so just leave it in the box.

[hunter richards]

I am interested in that plate if you don't want it, I put a call into Otto to see if they had any extras, if they don't I would gladly offer you something for it : )

[mlysbakken]

You can PM me if they don't have one! I've been thinking of converting it myself though, since pl lenses are so expensive, but I'm not entirely sure yet. You're name is written on it if I don't :)
I was quite happy for a minute there, when I thought the plate already had a different mount. That would have saved me the hassle of finding a willing mechanic here in Norway. Oh well...

[mlysbakken]

Do any of you happen to have an updated user manual that includes the changes that were made in the 2011 firmware update? I'm mainly thinking of the new ISO/EI system and 12 bit options. Can't seem to find much info anywhere.

[macgregor]

Here you go:

Version 1.7 of the user manual: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/5/manual%20f35.pdf

The parts manual: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/5/parts-manual.pdf

Slog white paper: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/5/SRW_ITG_S-Log_001_IO_EN.pdf

F35 and F23 brochures: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13362047/5/V-2430.pdf



BTW, did you upgrade your camera to the last firmware? Where did you get it from?

[mlysbakken]

Thanks!
This is the newest firmware I have found, from May 2011: http://pro.sony-asia.com/support/download/421346/product/f35 I don't know if they updated the camera after that.

[Grug]

Congrats on the F35 Magnus! You'll have to show us some samples from the camera and your lenses when they arrive.

Wow, if someone had told me when I finished uni just 4 years ago that in a couple of years people would be able to come out of film school and actually OWN an F35 and PL lenses, I'd have laughed in their face; it was HVX200s/EX1s & 35mm adapters back then. It's just amazing the level of equipment we all have at our disposal these days.

[mlysbakken]

Thanks Grug! Will do!
Miguel and Hunter, you might be interested in this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2mrrkrhekwejqf4/technical-bulletin.PDF It's a paper with instructions for the new firmware.
Also, I found a more recent firmware than the one I previously linked to: https://www.servicesplus.sel.sony.com/sony-software-model-F35.aspx

[macgregor]

When I got my first F35 I called SOny and they sent me the latest version. I belive is that one you just posted.

[mlysbakken]

When tilting my F35 I can hear something moving inside. Does that occur with you as well, or should I be worried? I don't really want to open it and search for the source, as I know the camera is quite compact...

[macgregor]

Strange. No sounds on mine.
Actually opening the camera is quite easy and not a big risk if you do it in a clean safe table.

[Adamsenoj]

I see this thread is still going.
I don't know. The F35 is definitely nice and for the price of a F3 or C300 I would definitely go for the F35, not question. But I have also seen a D21 for this price and between the F35 and D21 I would be inclined in taking the ARRI. Optical viewfinder + mechanical shutter+4:3 sensor for anamorphic +2K is just too tempting.

[macgregor]

Meh... Skintones, DR, easy of use, size, weight... the F35 is ahead of the D21.
Just compare how many big films were shot with the Genesis/F35 and how many with the D21.

[Adamsenoj]

There's also one good thing about recording in DNxHD and that is that the avid codec is a full range codec, and some other codecs like prores or uncompressed 422, only show you the limited range signal. And Slog is a full range gamma curve. So there might be hidden information if you ar recording in those codecs that is not easy to access, and therefore you'd be lossing dynamic range. This issue does not happen with DNxHD. ;D


Really? Because DNxHD records 16-235 or studio swing, while Prores is full swing at 0-255. Unless I misunderstood what you meant?

[macgregor]

No, it's actually the opposite.

Actually both codecs will record the full range, but Prores will ONLY show you the limited range, no matter if the signal was full range. However, with Davinci Resolve 9.0 you can manually set the QT prores files to use what they call "data values", which means you're telling the decoder that the footage is full range. So as long as you grade in resolve, you're safe now.

[Adamsenoj]

Meh... Skintones, DR, easy of use, size, weight... the F35 is ahead of the D21.
Just compare how many big films were shot with the Genesis/F35 and how many with the D21.

I think skin tones are better in the ARRI. Just my opinion. It makes the most filmic images I ever seen from a digital camera. Even more filmic than the newer Alexa. Of course, very subjective.
The reason for not many films has everything to do with the business model ARRI chose for this camera and marketing and nothing to do with quality. The D20 for example was rental only. When D21 hit, the Genesis had a good hold already and not even the F35 has as many features. Actually the F35 has done more TV than theatrical and it was replaced by the F65 rather quickly, so it didn't have enough time either.
DR seems to be about on the same level. The F35 advantage is in sensitivity. But like I said, I would be willing to overlook that for Optical viewfinder + mechanical shutter + 4:3 sensor for anamorphic +2K. ;)

[Adamsenoj]

No, it's actually the opposite.

Actually both codecs will record the full range, but Prores will ONLY show you the limited range, no matter if the signal was full range. However, with Davinci Resolve 9.0 you can manually set the QT prores files to use what they call "data values", which means you're telling the decoder that the footage is full range. So as long as you grade in resolve, you're safe now.

Strange. There was a big thread at the cow concerning the Hyperdeck and DNxHD and it seems even blackmagic confirmed DNxHD was studio swing. But I can't find it at the moment.

[macgregor]

mmmmm interesting...
as far as I know, with DNxHD you can tell the codec at the time of encoding that you are going to feed him with a full range or limited range signal.

Now, I work in PC, and my workflow is to edit and grade in Sony Vegas, or edit in Vegas and grade in Davinci.
When recording DNxHD files on the hyperdeck from the F35, the files look fine in Vegas. They are not clipped and they show the full range. So I can grade with no problems.
When grading those same files in Davinci, I have to tell Davinci that the DNxHD files are full range, otherwise Davinci interprets them as limited range (which is bad because you lose some DR in the highlights).

WHen doing the same workflow with prores files, I'm stucked with clipped highlights because QT decoder within Vegas decodes the prores files as limited range, therefore clipping the signal. The only way to fix this is grading those files in Davinci as I mentioned earlier, and telling Davinci to use the full range data.

[Adamsenoj]

mmmmm interesting...
as far as I know, with DNxHD you can tell the codec at the time of encoding that you are going to feed him with a full range or limited range signal.

Now, I work in PC, and my workflow is to edit and grade in Sony Vegas, or edit in Vegas and grade in Davinci.
When recording DNxHD files on the hyperdeck from the F35, the files look fine in Vegas. They are not clipped and they show the full range. So I can grade with no problems.
When grading those same files in Davinci, I have to tell Davinci that the DNxHD files are full range, otherwise Davinci interprets them as limited range (which is bad because you lose some DR in the highlights).

WHen doing the same workflow with prores files, I'm stucked with clipped highlights because QT decoder within Vegas decodes the prores files as limited range, therefore clipping the signal. The only way to fix this is grading those files in Davinci as I mentioned earlier, and telling Davinci to use the full range data.

I also have a Shuttle and record to DNxHD and grade in Resolve 9. How do you "tell" Resolve to use the full range data? Maybe I will see a difference. Thanks.

[macgregor]

In the conform, right click on the file or files and select properties / data levels instead of auto. The previews will immediately look different in the event Resolve was decoding the files as limited instead of full range.

[Adamsenoj]

Thanks.
Mmmm, interesting. Doing that, right click in conform>clip attributes> data levels, makes the image flatter and shows more details in the highlights. I purposely chose a clip with grey overcast skies and after changing from auto to data levels I could see some clouds. But, bringing the highlights down to the same level while in auto produced the same results. So you don't seem to be losing any data. It's just the way Resolve interprets the footage. One you have to do it manually, the other Resolve does it for you. Interesting nonetheless.

[macgregor]

Pf course it depwnds on where rhe file originated. With a full range camera like the f35 in slog you can quickly tell. If the file was not full range, then as you just mentioned there is no difference (this happens with 5d files for example).

[Adamsenoj]

I'm not sure it was not full range. Like I said, I saw a difference when I clicked Data Levels. The image became flatter and I saw more details in the highlights. In Auto, the highlights were clipped in the waveform. Once I clicked Data Levels, the highlights went down in the waveform and fit inside and I saw clouds there weren't there when it was in Auto.

But then I clicked on Auto again to clip the highlights and then I manually brought them down looking at the waveform to about where they were in Data Level mode. I could at least visibly see the same clouds I could when I changed to Data Level. Does that make sense?

[Adamsenoj]

By the way, what kind of focus and exposure tools the F35 has? Waveform for example? Focus expand?

[mlysbakken]

The F35 acts quite like a classic film camera, so an incident meter is the way to go if you don't have a monitor with built-in waveform or histogram. Same goes for focus, as far as I know - either use a monitor with peaking or use the old-school string method.

[macgregor]

The F35 acts quite like a classic film camera, so an incident meter is the way to go if you don't have a monitor with built-in waveform or histogram. Same goes for focus, as far as I know - either use a monitor with peaking or use the old-school string method.

Actually, in the EVF, you can switch to x2 and x4 times magnification. And also you can set up one zebra to mid grey and and another at 104% for clipping.

[macgregor]

I'm not sure it was not full range. Like I said, I saw a difference when I clicked Data Levels. The image became flatter and I saw more details in the highlights. In Auto, the highlights were clipped in the waveform. Once I clicked Data Levels, the highlights went down in the waveform and fit inside and I saw clouds there weren't there when it was in Auto.

But then I clicked on Auto again to clip the highlights and then I manually brought them down looking at the waveform to about where they were in Data Level mode. I could at least visibly see the same clouds I could when I changed to Data Level. Does that make sense?


OK, now I understand you. Yes this is correct. You can recover the clipped data within Davinci resolve, and also in FCP/color. But you can't do that in Premiere, AE, Vegas etc... because the way QT decodes the footage in those programs.
Also there's the disadvantage of having to bring down the highlights for every single shot. WHy do that when you can set the levels to data levels and forget about the problem?
Another reason: I have a Slog LUT that expects full range data. If you apply it to limited range data, the footage does not look as intended, because the mid grey is mapped higher than it should.
So basically in my opinion, if you're supervising the post, you're fine using prores with full range cameras such as the F35, but if you're giving the shots to someone else, make sure you explain them the workflow with prores.

[Adamsenoj]

The F35 acts quite like a classic film camera, so an incident meter is the way to go if you don't have a monitor with built-in waveform or histogram. Same goes for focus, as far as I know - either use a monitor with peaking or use the old-school string method.
Sure. But nothing beats a waveform for digital acquisition. I would expect such a high-end camera as the F35 would have a waveform built in when lots of prosumer ones do. Adding an onboard monitor would just make the F35 even bigger than it already is. When trying to keep the size as compact as possible, any little thing adds up. But Mac's images look great. I have used the little sister, the F23 and it was also a pretty good camera. But it was a while ago.

[Adamsenoj]

Actually, in the EVF, you can switch to x2 and x4 times magnification. And also you can set up one zebra to mid grey and and another at 104% for clipping.
So it does have focus expand, but it's a function of the viewfinder? Which one, the C30? By the way, does the F35 still keeps the standard Sony plug, meaning you could for example use an old F900 viewfinder with it too?

Zebras is better than nothing for exposure.

[Adamsenoj]

OK, now I understand you. Yes this is correct. You can recover the clipped data within Davinci resolve, and also in FCP/color. But you can't do that in Premiere, AE, Vegas etc... because the way QT decodes the footage in those programs.
Also there's the disadvantage of having to bring down the highlights for every single shot. WHy do that when you can set the levels to data levels and forget about the problem?


Sure. It's definitely easier than adjusting clip by clip. But you still have to right click clip by clip to change it to Data Level right? Or can you apply the setting globally? In any case it is a better workflow and I'm glad I found that out, thanks!




Another reason: I have a Slog LUT that expects full range data. If you apply it to limited range data, the footage does not look as intended, because the mid grey is mapped higher than it should.
So basically in my opinion, if you're supervising the post, you're fine using prores with full range cameras such as the F35, but if you're giving the shots to someone else, make sure you explain them the workflow with prores.

You mean use DNxHD with full range cameras? I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.

I choose to record DNxHD with the Shuttle over Prores because I'm PC based and DNxHD is technically superior to Prores, at least on paper, but definitely not inferior. I also use the Quicktime flavor of DNxHD. Have you tried the MXF flavor in the Shuttle?

[macgregor]

Or can you apply the setting globally?
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):

I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.
Both record the full range, but Prores only SHOWS the limited range in the editing software. The data is there but "hidden". DNxHD is a bit more flexible in this, as it shows the full range in most applications.

Do you know what Arri did in the Alexa to avoid this issue when recording to prores? They just map the whole Arrilog into limited range when you switch the camera to record in the SXs cards. Sure you lose a bit of range in the 10bit, but that way they don't have to deal with the range issue in post and clients complaining.


I found however that the image quality shooting at 1080i50 and 1080i60 with the hyperdeck, is much worse with the avid codec than with prores. At least, I can see compression artifacts on the dnxhd footage compared with the prores file in After effects and Vegas.

This is tricky since different QT codecs decode differently depending on the application...

[macgregor]

So it does have focus expand, but it's a function of the viewfinder? Which one, the C30? By the way, does the F35 still keeps the standard Sony plug, meaning you could for example use an old F900 viewfinder with it too?

Zebras is better than nothing for exposure.

Correct (to all of above).

You can also switch LUTs ON/OFF directly on the evf, so you can record Slog, but preview 709 on the EVF, and switch back and forth to check highlights for example.

[Adamsenoj]

Or can you apply the setting globally?
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
.


Aha! Of course. Thanks. :)





I found however that the image quality shooting at 1080i50 and 1080i60 with the hyperdeck, is much worse with the avid codec than with prores.

I never record interlaced with the shuttle. Only 24 frames progressive since the camera send 24psf out of the SDI.

[Grug]

Or can you apply the setting globally?
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):

I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.
Both record the full range, but Prores only SHOWS the limited range in the editing software. The data is there but "hidden". DNxHD is a bit more flexible in this, as it shows the full range in most applications.

Do you know what Arri did in the Alexa to avoid this issue when recording to prores? They just map the whole Arrilog into limited range when you switch the camera to record in the SXs cards. Sure you lose a bit of range in the 10bit, but that way they don't have to deal with the range issue in post and clients complaining.


I found however that the image quality shooting at 1080i50 and 1080i60 with the hyperdeck, is much worse with the avid codec than with prores. At least, I can see compression artifacts on the dnxhd footage compared with the prores file in After effects and Vegas.

This is tricky since different QT codecs decode differently depending on the application...

Miguel, do you know if Final Cut shows the full range of ProRes clips? I can't seem to find any option that enables or disables it.

[macgregor]

No it doesnt

[Adamsenoj]

And the price on it has dropped to $13k now! :shocked:

I came within a bee's d**k of buying it a couple of days ago, I've been tossing and turning and losing sleep over the decision for over a week (none of it made any easier by the tasty footage Miguel's been posting) but an incredible deal on an almost new F3 came up, and for the lighting and support kit I already have - I simply wouldn't be able to get as much out of the F35 as I could from the F3 (with its light weight and tremendous low-light ability), so I've gone with the smaller camera for now.

You know, I fully understand where you're coming from. The F35 is not for the faint of heart. It's a fully fledged cinema production camera and expects you to treat it as such. It doesn't even have some of the amenities we have come to expect of a larger camera, such as built-in ND filters. Because it expects you will always have a matte box with 4x5.65 filters in front of the lens. It's a camera made for George Lucas rather than for us small folks. :)
The F3, although not my cup of tea at all, is much easier to get the best from with minimal equipment. This is what is holding me back from getting a F35 at the moment.

[macgregor]

Did tou guys see the body i put for sale? Forget about the F3 :)

[Grug]

You know, I fully understand where you're coming from. The F35 is not for the faint of heart. It's a fully fledged cinema production camera and expects you to treat it as such. It doesn't even have some of the amenities we have come to expect of a larger camera, such as built-in ND filters. Because it expects you will always have a matte box with 4x5.65 filters in front of the lens. It's a camera made for George Lucas rather than for us small folks. :)
The F3, although not my cup of tea at all, is much easier to get the best from with minimal equipment. This is what is holding me back from getting a F35 at the moment.

Honestly Adam, when the F35 was still at a 'lofty' $13k I'd (as my purchasing decision obviously shows) agree with you. But at $8.5k? You have the extra money for a heavier duty tripod. It wouldn't have been much of a contest to my mind if that price had been a reality when I bought mine. Especially now that you can rig up an F35 in such a comparatively lightweight setup (pared back it's actually not that much heavier than an F3 frakenrigged to usability levels).


Did tou guys see the body i put for sale? Forget about the F3 :)

Had I known 3 months ago when I bought my F3, that I'd be able to get an F35 for $8500 in three months time. There wouldn't have been any umming or ahhing or lost sleep. I'd have myself a nice plump F35 right now.

Oh well. Can't really complain with what I've ended up with.

[Adamsenoj]

So you're getting rid of your F35?

[Adamsenoj]

Honestly Adam, when the F35 was still at a 'lofty' $13k I'd (as my purchasing decision obviously shows) agree with you. But at $8.5k? You have the extra money for a heavier duty tripod. It wouldn't have been much of a contest to my mind if that price had been a reality when I bought mine. Especially now that you can rig up an F35 in such a comparatively lightweight setup (pared back it's actually not that much heavier than an F3 frakenrigged to usability levels).


Sure. But it's not only a tripod or accessories, to which I already have pretty much everything, including an O'Connor that supports 50Lbs. It's that the camera was designed to be shot in a totally different way than a F3 or AF100 for example. I didn't say it was a huge deal. I'm saying that it's got me pondering. It's not something you should just pull the trigger without thinking. Swapping a FS700 for a F3 for example it's pretty much the same thing. You are just getting better quality. The F35 comes with a couple of strings attached and it needs to be considered. It's not only equipment, although I would have to upgrade both my jib head and steadicam, but it's also the way you shoot, the crew size, the extra needs and so on. That level of quality comes with strings attached. Like the folks who bought the BT RED ONEs and thought they were really getting a prosumer camera and that $4,000 would be even near the final price of a shooting package.

[macgregor]

Beaides a built in lcd and nds how is the f3 easier to shootthan a f35 recording to a hyperdck?
Actually what i like about the f35 is how simple it is to use. No menus. Just a lightmeter and done.

[macgregor]

So you're getting rid of your F35?

Me? No way, i am keeping two bodies.

[Sage]

What's the start up time on this sucker?

[bgundu]

Who's going to get the F65????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F65-CineAlta-Digital-Motion-Picture-Camera-/150977665879?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Came ras&hash=item2326f85b57

[Adamsenoj]

Who's going to get the F65????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F65-CineAlta-Digital-Motion-Picture-Camera-/150977665879?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Came ras&hash=item2326f85b57

It sold for basically half the price. Although not as much of a drop as the F35, the F65 is much newer. Still, I would be very nervous to invest in any cameras costing over $10k nowadays unless I was a rental house. I would definitely hesitate to drop money on a F55 and probably even F5. Things are changing so fast.

There's another F65 with recorder going for $20k right now.

[James0b57]

Who's going to get the F65????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F65-CineAlta-Digital-Motion-Picture-Camera-/150977665879?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Came ras&hash=item2326f85b57
The seller's other items are pokemon cards. Awesome.

[Samuel H]

wow

[Grug]

It sold for basically half the price. Although not as much of a drop as the F35, the F65 is much newer. Still, I would be very nervous to invest in any cameras costing over $10k nowadays unless I was a rental house. I would definitely hesitate to drop money on a F55 and probably even F5. Things are changing so fast.

There's another F65 with recorder going for $20k right now.

it's just crazy isn't it? I wonder how much of the crazy undervalued camera market at the moment has to do with the whole progress-of-technology thing, and how much is just the rough economic conditions and people getting in over their heads with purchases?

[macgregor]

It's an auction. It wont be sold for that much.

[Sage]

Does anyone know the F35 start up time?

[Samuel H]

It ended yesterday: an F65 for $39K! that's 40% off in 6 months! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F65-CineAlta-Digital-Motion-Picture-Camera-/150977665879?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Came ras&hash=item2326f85b57
Brand new. Unused. In original boxes (included). Opened for inspection and testing.
Complete F65 package, includes 256gb SR Memory Card and Frezzie AC Power Supply.

This one has 1 day left and is at $20K right now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F65-CineAlta-Digital-Motion-Picture-Camera-Many-Extras-No-Reserve-/130833634557?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D11%26meid%3D4942358862107688691%26pid%3D100 011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D150977665879%26

[macgregor]

Does anyone know the F35 start up time?

Exactly 10 seconds to be fully operational.

[Adamsenoj]

it's just crazy isn't it? I wonder how much of the crazy undervalued camera market at the moment has to do with the whole progress-of-technology thing, and how much is just the rough economic conditions and people getting in over their heads with purchases?

Hard to say. But it's definitely not only the high-end cameras. The F3 is also going for a bargain these days. I have seen some going for $5-6K. Considering it cost around $13K when new, it's a good bargain and considerable price drop. It's much newer than the F35. The FS100 is also dirty cheap in the used market as is the AF100.
Interestingly though, the FS700 seems to be holding it's value better. I wonder if it's the fact it's the cheapest decent super slomo camera out there?

Back to high-end cameras, the Sony 9000PL is also going for a bargain. I saw some for around $9-10k. Keep in mind that although it sounds higher than the F35, the price for the F35 we are seeing is only for the camera. The 9000PL has a HDCAM SR recorder (built in type). It's a good bargain considering it's pretty much the very same camera as the F35 (same sensor and electronics), just stuffed in a self-contained shoulder mount broadcast style body, and a PL mount. New it cost $70K and Sony promotes it as a B-camera for the F35. They get you the very same image quality. The advantage over the F35 is that it's read to shoot handheld without any additional rig. Even if you don't use the HDCAM SR deck, you can still attach a Hyperdeck Shuttle and get the same you would from a F35. For those that walk between the worlds of broadcast/corporate and filmmaking, it's arguably a better choice than the F35.

[Pelican]

To the OP, Macgregor, do you agree that the Sony 9000PL is the same IQ at the F35? Does it have the same Genesis Technology?
Also, where has the Sony 9000PL been selling for that low a price?

"(the 9000PL).. bargain considering it's pretty much the very same camera as the F35 (same sensor and electronics), just stuffed in a self-contained shoulder mount broadcast style body, and a PL mount."

"Sony 9000PL is also going for a bargain. I saw some for around $9-10k."

[Grug]

To the OP, Macgregor, do you agree that the Sony 9000PL is the same IQ at the F35? Does it have the same Genesis Technology?
Also, where has the Sony 9000PL been selling for that low a price?

"(the 9000PL).. bargain considering it's pretty much the very same camera as the F35 (same sensor and electronics), just stuffed in a self-contained shoulder mount broadcast style body, and a PL mount."

"Sony 9000PL is also going for a bargain. I saw some for around $9-10k."

9000PL image should be identical. From what I remember from when I was still covering production news, Sony told me the 9000PL was actually a far more popular camera than the F35 because the form-factor made it better suited to TV production. The sensor and mount is the same.

[macgregor]

I think they didnt sell many 9000pl, there were more 9000s but the ones without the s35mm sensor. And while very interesting i havent seen any for sale.
I also wonder whats smaller and lighter, the f35 body or the 9000pl carrying a hd am deck you wont use.

So that f65 sold for 40 grand...

[Grug]

I think they didnt sell many 9000pl, there were more 9000s but the ones without the s35mm sensor. And while very interesting i havent seen any for sale.
I also wonder whats smaller and lighter, the f35 body or the 9000pl carrying a hd am deck you wont use.

So that f65 sold for 40 grand...

It may have been popularity for rentals, I can't quite remember.

$40k for a virtually new F65? ...the camera market is a strange and unpredictable place at he moment.

[macgregor]

I've been shooting all week with the F35. Wonderfull footage as usual.
I shot with a hyperdeck and a Gemini.
The hyperdeck mini BNC conector broke again (2nd unit that it happens, it's just weak). Sad because it's such a good product.
The Gemini seems to lose some quality, even when it records uncompressed DPX. Strange. It fills SSDs like crazy, and takes long to download, so I'm not fully sure I want one yet.

[mcgeedigital]

You should try the Pix240.

Love mine and use it on my epic.

[Adamsenoj]

I've been shooting all week with the F35. Wonderfull footage as usual.
I shot with a hyperdeck and a Gemini.
The hyperdeck mini BNC conector broke again (2nd unit that it happens, it's just weak). Sad because it's such a good product.
The Gemini seems to lose some quality, even when it records uncompressed DPX. Strange. It fills SSDs like crazy, and takes long to download, so I'm not fully sure I want one yet.

Yes, this is a weakness of the Shuttle. My first one broke also. Now I'm just really careful with it. I'm thinking about putting it in some sort of cage where the connector couldn't be touched and leave the small and thin cable connected full time. Only disconnect on the camera side.