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View Full Version : ProHD, how much longer until production models ship?



Rosestar
06-21-2005, 10:23 PM
When is the JVC ProHD camera gonna ship? Shouldn't we be seeing footage from tape by now? Just wondering.

Barry_Green
06-22-2005, 12:54 AM
No ship date has been announced, other than to say "July". On DVInfo someone just posted saying that an official JVC rep is now saying "August"...

Rosestar
06-22-2005, 01:03 AM
Bummer, I wanted to try and get my hands on it for a test run, or at least see some footage. I have a project coming up in early September that I thought might be good for the JVC. That would be cutting it to close. Would have been cool to test drive it with OPM...

mezelf27
06-22-2005, 03:28 AM
Yep, the dates seem to change and change. And I am quite impatient :-)

WarrenS
06-22-2005, 02:38 PM
I'm trying to take advantage of JVC's incentive program (buy a 5100 and get $2000 off the HD100). I was told yesterday after registering the purchase that we're looking at LATE August.

mezelf27
06-22-2005, 05:46 PM
Well, I'm fearing here... Some have the info on September, "but it could be earlier...", some are saying within a few weeks now (but they're saying that for a vast month now...)

Some sites even mention "end of may/begin of June", Damn do they need updating!

EyeBite
06-22-2005, 07:24 PM
I would first trust JVC's pro site before the varying shipping dates you see on dealers' sites.

JVC's site says here (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101539) it's July, and seeing as how they update the site almost on a daily basis now, they have yet to change that date.

Or maybe I'm still not over the fact that it was supposed to be June, and then got pushed back to July. B&H's listing scares me, estimating an August release. Sad thing is, they'll probably end up being right. Good thing is, that gives me all the more confidence when I place my order with them :-)

gcoffee
07-06-2005, 07:42 AM
They've updated it to August.

http://tinyurl.com/ccgfh

athouguia
07-06-2005, 09:07 AM
Lets hope they won't do it again to September...

gcoffee
07-06-2005, 10:48 AM
Well, regardless, we're now looking at alternatives. We can't plan if JVC can't deliver.

Zim
07-06-2005, 01:11 PM
I think they are waiting to see what Canon will do!!

I don't have much faith in a company that keeps changing the date.

I think the camera should be made, announce and sent to the stores. Not all the hype, camera's hiding in clear bags, balsawood mock ups etc. It's what we are seeing with the HVX too. Then everyone bashes Canon for not having a HD camera and 7 years between the XL1 and the XL2. Panasonic got the hype going showed alittle wooden camera, then ran off to Asia and are trying to make it. JVC did about the same.

Why make everyone wait? I guess none of them, but Sony had anything ready and they are trying to keep people from buying the Z1. Which is a good idea.

Barry_Green
07-06-2005, 01:28 PM
My reseller told me that JVC is telling them September for HD100's.

Zim, regarding why the hype -- I answered that before in another thread. Keep in mind that these cameras are not marketed primarily to consumers. They're announced at the National Association of Broadcasters convention (not the national association of indie filmmakers, mind you) for broadcasters to see, budget for, and plan on. These are stations with multimillion dollar hardware budgets. They need to know what's coming, not just what's available today. They have to plan ahead, and allocate their funding. If someone just sprung a camera on them with no warning, they'd say "oh, well, thanks, but it'll be nine months before our next budget approval, so I can't do anything for you right now." Or whatever. Whereas with adequate notice, stations and broadcasters can plan and budget.

Canon, on the other hand, doesn't sell to stations or broadcasters. They sell to consumers and indie production companies. And so, yes, Canon will launch a camera with little to no notice, and they don't introduce cameras at N.A.B. They introduce them at shows like DV Expo East (which takes place in just a few weeks, doesn't it?) Sometimes they don't introduce them at shows at all, they just send out press releases, and the next month the camera's in the store.

Zim
07-07-2005, 02:49 AM
I still don't like it Barry.

Antoine_Fabi
07-07-2005, 08:18 AM
Barry,

I dont really think these camcorders are destined to broadcast market...
I mean...yes and no...
A small proportion will be sold to broadcasters, but most units will be sold to small producers.

This is a big mistake. from july to september...
People will look elsewere...
I was seriously thinking about buying the HD100 for my summer productions, then the HVX200 in december, but now, i am seriously thinking about buying the SDX900 (or the SPX)...heavy, yes, but available !
or even buy the lightweight Sony Z1 and use DVFILM to convert to 24p, or even the XL2...because of its ability to focus at full telephoto wide open.

I'm really tired waiting for the "ultimate lightweight camcorder"...no real news...no footage...

Erik Olson
07-07-2005, 08:40 AM
We just received a glossy packet on the JVC ProHD line yesterday. Interesting note the 1/2" from 1/3" adapter ring available as an accessory.

This ostensibly opens an appreciable range of less expensive options to the two lenses mfg. specifically for the camera? Looks like a nice 720p system to me, I love the slightly larger form-factor. Doesn't seem like the deck supports 1080i HDV playback though?

e

Zim
07-07-2005, 09:11 AM
Barry I still think JVC and Panasonic were no where close to a release on the ProHD or the HVX,,,they just tried to slow down Sony sales. "Look what we got!!" Then, "well it will be the end of the year".

If FOX news or CNN really want a $5,000 camcorder I'm sure they don't have to plan it out 9 months in advance.

I can see a month or two after a announcement but 8 or nine months? And it really could be the next NAB before we see the HVX200.

Bill__Turner
07-07-2005, 09:30 AM
Zim,

Barry is on target here, CNN, the BBC, Fox, buy this type of camera by the hundreds and that requires budgeting. In many cases other equipment , decks etc are also required if the format is different than one already in use. Many years ago, I saw a serious confrontation at NAB between someone from a TV group that had taken delivery of 6 cameras two weeks before and found the new model at NAB.

You are correct that a component of early announcement is to try to get buyers to wait instead of purchase the compeditors products, but it is a double edged sword. I suspect that many who would have purchased a DVX from Panasonic are waiting for the HVX.

Bill Turner
Schneider Optics
Century Division

Zim
07-07-2005, 10:16 AM
Zim,

Barry is on target here, CNN, the BBC, Fox, buy this type of camera by the hundreds and that requires budgeting. In many cases other equipment , decks etc are also required if the format is different than one already in use. Many years ago, I saw a serious confrontation at NAB between someone from a TV group that had taken delivery of 6 cameras two weeks before and found the new model at NAB.

You are correct that a component of early announcement is to try to get buyers to wait instead of purchase the compeditors products, but it is a double edged sword. I suspect that many who would have purchased a DVX from Panasonic are waiting for the HVX.

Bill Turner
Schneider Optics
Century Division

what kind of camera's are you talking about? ProHD? HVX? There isn't camera's like that yet. They might take some small cameras like the Sony PD-170 to some war zone, but how many do you see anywhere else?

Barry_Green
07-07-2005, 10:59 AM
It's the way the business works.

Sony introduced the FX1 at NAB 2004, and didn't ship it to stores until October 2004. Panasonic introduced the DVX at NAB 2002, and shipped it to stores in October 2002.
JVC introduced the HD100 at NAB 2005, and will ship it to stores sometime around September 2005.

Antoine_Fabi
07-07-2005, 01:54 PM
Do they they reserve bugdet before even try those camcorders...

again, no footage yet...

...maybe i am just frustrated...

athouguia
07-07-2005, 07:18 PM
I think they have their reasons for the delay. Everyone is on target here, has Barry said they have to plan ahead and allocate their funding... with the other hand they keep people from buying Sony's Z1, one way or the other is just a market strategy.

I'm waiting for it and I won't buy another one for sure, I don't like handycams and unfortunately the only camera with better specifications is the HVX200... another prosumer model. Their camera is unique, they don't have much to lose with the delay.

Or maybe they are just improving it...

Flintstone
07-07-2005, 08:39 PM
If they keep pushing the deadline, it simply means they have some sort of technical or manufacturing setback. I'd rather wait for a fully functional model, then get one that is buggy because the manufacturer was presured to ship it out sooner. This is not software, you just can't download a patch on a piece of hardware (firmware aside that is).

Rosestar
07-07-2005, 08:54 PM
If they keep pushing the deadline, it simply means they have some sort of technical or manufacturing setback. I'd rather wait for a fully functional model, then get one that is buggy because the manufacturer was presured to ship it out sooner. This is not software, you just can't download a patch on a piece of hardware (firmware aside that is).

Yeah, I agree. I don't think that JVC deserves any smack for pushing back the date. Launching a new products takes a lot of elements working together smoothly and is not an easy task. They could have problems with their firmware, or getting the optics shiped or just a backlog or raw materials needed, who knows. They are betting alot with this product and I am sure that they are going to do the best they can. I am just a little disappointed, I wanted to check one out for a thing I have coming up. Oh well.

Erik Olson
07-07-2005, 09:07 PM
When a company decides capital expenditures, they're not necessarily locked into a particular model or mfg. Instead, they sometimes use a given model to establish a baseline estimate for future purchases on comparable technology.

We routinely budget based on tradeshow estimate MSRPs for future quarterly CAPEX. The last company I worked for developed capital expenditure budgets between two and four quarters in advance. Their annual production equipment CAPEX spend fell anywhere between 500k and 2.5 million - it just depended on the fiscal state of the company at the time.

In rental and heavily technology-dependent businesses there are many factors that go into the final purchase decisions. Brand alignment, leveraging manufacturers across multiple product lines for discounts, adhesion to corporate mandates for supported technologies, first-cost, depreciation, estimated usable lifespan and obsolesence are all mitigating details that play into the choices made when it comes time to write the check or sign the business lease.

Rental businesses factor in other considerations as well. It used to be the rule that production equipment paid against depreciable cost after only ten rentals, now that is up to over twenty or twenty-five.

Manufacturers, being consumers of technology themselves, are acutely aware of the guidelines governing CAPEX decisions and race to get their products out there with features and a pricepoint that will capture everyone's attention.

Our community contributes a very small fraction in the bigger scheme of things, so we just have to be patient!

e

joshtownsend
07-07-2005, 09:50 PM
We should still be seeing footage by now I would think. The closer the release date is to the HVX, the more sales they will lose to it. Especially if the HVX has footage out in September when the jvc gets released.

razamalik
07-08-2005, 07:33 PM
I don't like handycams and unfortunately the only camera with better specifications is the HVX200... another prosumer model.

How can you say that HVX200 is a prosumer model Athouguia ? DVCPRO-HD is a professional format and this camera on paper beats the HD100 by far. Variable frame rates & 1080/24p alone gives HVX200 the edge no other camera in this price range has. & if you practice you can get some steady footage out of handycams just use a tripod, monopod, shoulder mount or a stabalising system which ever you can afford or can suite the situation. Other than stability of the shoulder mount HVX200 is a professional camera & saying that it is a prosumer model would not do justice to the many professional features on the camera.

Raza

athouguia
07-09-2005, 06:52 AM
The HVX200 is a camera with professional features in a prosumer body that uses an expensive and limited capacity memory card. It could be an excellent camera, far better than the HD100. With a tripod, or course any camera is stable, even with the shoulder mount handycams are not equilibrated, the weight is still on your hand and not on the shoulder and you have to use the LCD display... I have one for my PD170 and I never use it. No practice can give you good steady footage as a shoulder camera, for some reason expensive pro cameras are not handycams. Also, the pro lens are much easy to handle, better focus, iris control and zoom. Try to make a really soft zoom with a DVX100, or a PD170 or even with a Z1... it's not possible, zoom always starts too fast.

If you could put the HVX200 inside HD100's body with an Anton Bauer or IDX power system, you'd have a perfect camera.

Anhar Miah
07-09-2005, 07:14 AM
I really want the HVX200 to be a great success, but in the end my only worry is that (the format is perfect, no gripes there) but the sensor is still goining to be 1/3" (x3) thus the final image will be somewhat similar to Z1/FX1, and JVC HD100 beacuse they are all 1/3".

I know asking for bigger sensors at these price points are nonsense, but I just hope that as higher end gear moves towards full 35mm sensors, surely 2/3" sensors should "trickle" down to the prosumer level?

Anyway dreaming over.

athouguia
07-09-2005, 07:46 AM
JVC announced a 2/3" CMOS camera for 2006, the GY-HD7000... another ProHD with 1920 x 1080 native resolution. I don't know about the price... but will certainly be higher than the HD100!

Erik Olson
07-09-2005, 08:02 AM
2/3 chips also give you a larger camera. I'd venture that the next major step forward will see a shift into single-imager systems like the D20 and Genesis.

e

EyeBite
07-09-2005, 09:04 AM
JVC announced a 2/3" CMOS camera for 2006, the GY-HD7000... another ProHD with 1920 x 1080 native resolution. I don't know about the price... but will certainly be higher than the HD100!

$27,000 - the press release (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101476&itempath=&feature_id=08).

Flintstone
07-09-2005, 11:21 AM
My JVC vendor told me yesterday that he should be receiving his first shipment of HD100 by the end of July. He seemed quite sure of his claims. We'll see... :happy:

Rosestar
07-09-2005, 11:21 AM
$27,000 - the press release (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101476&itempath=&feature_id=08).


$27,950 WITHOUT lens. Add another $5k-$10k minimum for glass.

athouguia
07-09-2005, 11:56 AM
$27,950 WITHOUT lens. Add another $5k-$10k minimum for glass.

NEW HD CAMERA RECORDER FROM JVC TO OFFER BROADCASTERS AFFORDABILITY... where is the affordability? It's a HDV, not a DVCPRO-HD or a HDCAM!

EyeBite
07-09-2005, 12:28 PM
Slightly above $30,000 for a 2/3" HDV camera sounds affordable to me. Maybe not affordable for me, but affordable for said broadcasters.

mmm
07-09-2005, 01:39 PM
2/3 chips also give you a larger camera. I'd venture that the next major step forward will see a shift into single-imager systems like the D20 and Genesis.


I was wondering about this too.

Maybe they could continue to use 3CCDs, but each CCD set to a different sensitivity. 1 for blacks, 1 for mids and 1 for highlights.

That way you could achieve amazing latitude.

Is there a reason why not???

I know the Genesis is rumoured to do something similar on a single chip with alternating sensitivity of the pixel lines. Not sure if that is true though.

Barry_Green
07-09-2005, 04:34 PM
$27,950 WITHOUT lens. Add another $5k-$10k minimum for glass.
Try a little higher -- 2/3" HD lenses start at $12,000 for the cheapest Canon. Good glass can run $25,000 to $65,000. For just the lens.

So the configured JVC GY7000 package will probably start at around $40,000 and go from there.

Erik Olson
07-09-2005, 06:26 PM
This has been the supposition on the Genesis, though I've not seen anything to back it up in a whitepaper or specification sheet.

Basically, a high-stop and low-stop interlacing on the same 12.4 megapixel non-Bayer RGB sensor is the idea some have run with. I don't know if this would be achieved through a variable pedestal or within gain?

I can't believe that it is less expensive to produce and integrate multiple imagers instead of a single high-definition CMOS or RGB sensor. Perhaps we'll get there in the next generation Panasonic cameras?

e

mezelf27
07-10-2005, 10:46 AM
well any pixel can just register sensitivity, not colour (in itself). Therefore a single chip CCD-system would require more pixels, thus, It would need to be larger (andrequires larger and more expensive lenses) or it would have a lower light sensiticity.

lacuna
07-11-2005, 02:39 AM
Try a little higher -- 2/3" HD lenses start at $12,000 for the cheapest Canon. Good glass can run $25,000 to $65,000. For just the lens.

So the configured JVC GY7000 package will probably start at around $40,000 and go from there.

Barry, along with other members you have noted this before. Just wanted to point out Dave Walton from JVC explicitly states that the 28k figure is "including the lens". See:

http://www.dvformat.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31724-1

Okay, who knows what quality the glass is, but it does seem the package will be significantly more affordable than its more esteemed rivals.

Barry_Green
07-11-2005, 02:47 AM
Intriguing. He does indeed say "including lens" in that interview.

I was taking my reference from the original press release, where they clearly state that the price is "$27,950 less lens".
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101476&itempath=&feature_id=08

So there are two directly contradictory statements, both from official JVC sources. I guess we'll just have to wait and see which one proves to be accurate.

Barry_Green
07-11-2005, 02:53 AM
Okay, continuing on this subject, I just looked at the specs page for the GY-HD7000U and there's some very interesting stuff on there.

First, they say that it will record HDV at 720/50p and 720/60p. That's a first.
But second, they say it will record 1080/50i and 1080/60i, but it sure looks like it's *not* HDV. They specifically list what it will record in HDV, and then they have a second category for "MPEG2". Could it be that JVC is developing their own, non-HDV-compatible 1080i recording format? One that would obviously be incompatible with Sony's HDV? And this new format will be recordable only to hard disk -- it will not record 1080/50i or 1080/60i to tape. That's all quite interesting...

No mention of 24p anywhere except in 720 mode; no mention of DV 24p or 1080/24p at all.

Obviously this is a really, really, really early spec sheet and I expect much of it will change prior to the product actually being produced.

athouguia
07-11-2005, 12:39 PM
Provisual in Australia already pre-sold all the first shipment for July... take a look: http://www.provis.com.au/news/news.htm

mezelf27
07-11-2005, 03:40 PM
Yep, still no contra-indication for me it will be here (Europe, I'm sorry to tell you guys :-) ) mid to end of July, but I'm fearing it somewhat...

athouguia
07-11-2005, 04:18 PM
I think now there's another problem, it may become available soon here in Europe... but unless you have a pre-paid reservation you'll have to wait for the next shipment like those guys in Australia. I won't pay for something that is not available yet... the problem is that I'm really needing this camera, I'm spending to much money renting a pro DVCAM... money that I could be using to pay my own camera!!!

athouguia
07-11-2005, 06:24 PM
"According to JVC the camera has literally only been in production for the last month. The first shipment of the HD100 & the HD101 should be here on the 20th July.
I just got that info direct from JVC as I am typing, when I spoke to them a few week's ago they said that the HD101 would not be available until august and the HD100 would be out in the first week in July. (They change their minds every week)"

http://shootingpeople.org/home/viewcard.php?act=act&card=48673&message=179777

athouguia
07-11-2005, 06:36 PM
And this one... everybody's gonna like... I think...!!

http://www.prohd.co.uk/index.html

Policar
07-11-2005, 10:10 PM
Looks sweet, but the effective focal length of that lens is 2100mm. Good luck getting a steady shot with that!

The camera looks nice, though. Shame the high end one is HDV and 720p24p only. I hear it uses Altisens sensors, which apparently have awesome dynamic range and are full 1920X1080 CMOS. Chips that good with a format that lame is like making Caravaggio paint on a napkin. It's just not right! I was hoping it would at least offer 50mbps but it looks like that's out of the question, too.

MARIOSCICLUNA
07-13-2005, 08:01 AM
I've just tried it for a few minutes last week here in Malta (europe). We've had a demo session. Looks cool. At first sight , from it's shape one might say that it's hard to balamce on your shoulder, I didnt feel that this was the case. Pretty balanced camera for it's shape. Being the first HDV camera I ever tested I'd say that the picture is amazing. Pricewise it won't break your bank account either. The lcd display looks great as well, however I didn't like the lcd colour viewfinder. I 'd rather have a crt b&w one. Overall I can predict that it's far beyond Sony's HDV. Preset settings saved on SD card is cool as well, especially for multi camera studio (or location) shooting.

athouguia
07-14-2005, 05:12 PM
Mario, as you say and as I foresaw the LCD viewfinder is not as good as a CRT one, however what did you think about the Focus Assist? Is the viewfinder better than the DVX100 one? Did the camera had a battery mount with big and heavy batteries like IDX or Anton Bouer, or it had the JVC normal battery type? I think heavy batteries will give it even better balance. By the way, B&H is already accepting pre-orders. For the European folks, I found an excellent price for the HD101E in UK...

mmm
07-14-2005, 05:22 PM
MARIOSCICLUNA, please tell us more... did you see footage recorded to tape and then played back? Many demo models had no tape mechanism in them.

athouguia, where from and how much is your excellent UK price if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks in advance guys!

mezelf27
07-14-2005, 05:39 PM
well, they just confirmed here in belgium, the GY-HD101E would be available the last week of july!

it's really coming now...

athouguia
07-14-2005, 09:59 PM
mmm, the price is from Libra, http://www.libraprobroadcast.co.uk/ I found about them on a Magazine and I sent an e-mail to Bryan Hansen. You won't find the camera on their site yet, however he gave me a price already. Here is a copy of the mail he sent me: "the unit from JVC GY-HD101E will not be available until August this year, but this may change to JVC releasing it a little earlier. The RRP on this unit is 3,600.00 and our price to you is 3,120.00. shipping cost is approx 60.00 (next day)" This price is Exc. VAT, I won't pay it because I live in Portugal. I don't know these guys, I used to deal with Videoactionpro, however it seems that the owner died a few weeks ago and the site is offline. If you know anything about Libra please tell me, I'm about to place my order. Also, please tell me if you know a better price. I hope this helps.

lacuna
07-14-2005, 11:22 PM
www.globalmediapro.com have the HD101e for 3200 ex VAT etc, and the HD100e for 3030. A little more perhaps, but these guys have been around since 1993 and they sell a lot of cameras from there offices in London & Auckland.

It's worth having a look around the site. Good luck.

athouguia
07-15-2005, 05:50 AM
Lacuna, thank you for your post.

mmm
07-15-2005, 11:45 AM
Thanks guys!

I'll look into it.