p2 reader nab 2012

[Al MacLeod]

Lots of 2012 NAB posts...I'll take a stab at this one as the appropriate spot for a question. Any cheap(er) usb3 P2 readers?

[Barry_Green]

No; only usb3 reader is the pcd30 3-slot unit.

[Al MacLeod]

Sigh...I guess there's always NAB 2013...

[Brian@202020]

Sigh...I guess there's always NAB 2013...

By NAB 2013 hopefully Panasonic will evolve away from the barbaric P2 card. They are dangerously becoming JVC, and if they don't learn they will be Ikegami in no time.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I like P2.

[EndCredits]

Me too.

[eheath]

By NAB 2013 hopefully Panasonic will evolve away from the barbaric P2 card. They are dangerously becoming JVC, and if they don't learn they will be Ikegami in no time.

So what is better than p2? A raided memory card? that is now available in the size of an SD card? Seriously, p2 is the best media out right now, followed by SSD follows by CF followed by SD.

[zijital]

This is one of my major complaints with P2 is that the PCM-CIA standard was great in 2001, dead in 2012.

I really don't understand why there aren't more cheap readers. The $330 AJ-PCD2GPJ is fine, but slow. The $2,050 AJ-PCD30PJ costs more than a used HVX these days, and you can pay 60% more to get a fully firewire card reader that doubles as a camera (HPX170).

At least there is the Sonnet Quo which does P2, SxS & CF (plus SDHC) over eStata for $770.

I really think there should be a FW800 , USB3.0 & Thunderbolt card readers for $300 or less, but I don't have too much hope.

[Barry_Green]

I hammered them about that, I asked for a PCD3 (my name for a single-slot USB3 reader).

[David Jimerson]

Can't even imagine what would make P2 "barbaric." Could be the ironclad reliability, I suppose.

[zijital]

I hammered them about that, I asked for a PCD3 (my name for a single-slot USB3 reader).

Thanks. I'm sure your voice has at least little bit of weight with Panasonic. Maybe we'll see something in 2015, at least we'll have MicroP2 SD form factor cards next year.

To me the $2k price on a 3slot reader is a bitter pill b/c I got a FW800 CF reader for $40. Yeah $2k is much cheaper than a $10k VTR, but even the best P2 reader doesn't have nearly as many parts as a VTR.

[Video Dave]

Barry,

Any chance Panasonic will come out with a lower cost HD-SDI P2 recorder? Considering the PIX 240, etc. 4,700 for the AG-HPG20 seems too high.

[Barry_Green]

Barry,

Any chance Panasonic will come out with a lower cost HD-SDI P2 recorder? Considering the PIX 240, etc. 4,700 for the AG-HPG20 seems too high.
Any chance? Sure there's a chance, but I don't know if/when. We lobbied quite heavily for it, especially the idea of a MicroP2 recorder that could be tiny.

The HPG20 does lots and lots of things besides recording, so it would seem to me that a simplified recorder would be a product that doesn't directly compete with the HPG20 and therefore should be explored as a new product.

[Brian@202020]

So what is better than p2? A raided memory card? that is now available in the size of an SD card? Seriously, p2 is the best media out right now, followed by SSD follows by CF followed by SD.

Lots of current memory cards are multiple memory modules in a raid configuration. Back when P2 first came out they were the only ones, but not anymore. I would even venture to say most class 10 and up SD cards over 32 gig are raided and have some sort of error protection, same with the faster SSD's. Not 100% sure about CF cards, but I wouldn't doubt it. There is nothing special about P2 anymore.

[tumbleweed]

I like P2 and hope it sticks around for a long time. I think the best solution to make it more competitive in the TV world is drop the price of the cards and YES, PROVIDE a cheaper reader. I know, preaching to the choir. I own P2 cards and a PCD2 reader. But because of the price of the cards and many clients chose to shoot on Sony. I personally like the Panasonic look better than Sony. But when they can record for longer with fewer cards it makes it less cost effective for me. My 2 cents.

[mcgeedigital]

Can't even imagine what would make P2 "barbaric." Could be the ironclad reliability, I suppose.

It is because P2 likes to see other solid state media driven before them, and hear the lamentations of the women and children.

52517

[SantaCruzMichael]

I like P2 as well. Would love to see more new cams use it.

[badjuju]

it's harder to lose a P2 card... I'm always misplacing SD cards.

[mburkefilms]

I'm about to upgrade to an HPX250 from an HMC150, and I'm really happy to be going to P2. Though it is disappointing I can't afford to transfer footage through firewire.

[blckhawk542]

It seems barbaric when you place it next to a sleek SxS card which is much thinner than the P2...but it's also a lot younger than P2.

P2 is super reliable. I have had power shortages, been shocked by the camera and the card at times, given where I was on location. Static electricity is a joke for this card. I accidentally shocked an SD card when I was shooting some stills with a 5D, when I went to put into a card reader and the files become corrupted and distorted. P2 is a champ. I'm a little irked that there's a new Micro P2 format. Which will mean...none of my current P2 cards that I have could ever be used in say..the new 4k Vari-cam when that comes out...but we'll see if Panasonic is more generous about that possibility.

They may seem a bit archaic in their physical design, because they're not thin and super sleek like the relatively new SxS or SD cards.
But why does the look and size of the card matter when you're shooting something? It's tucked away into the camera. I prefer a rugged recording medium that will certainly save all of my data, rather than have a 'cool' looking rig and accessories.

Unfortunately in the freelance / independent realms these days, people are getting caught up with the equipment that people own, rather than the quality, reliability and experience they can offer to clients. I have to tell people, in order to get hired, my camera specs and the type of editing machine I can bring to the table. Then they ask me about my experience level...shame really.
Any opportunist could get into this game if they had the capital, but when the going gets tough, experience and reliability for those who know what they're doing will stand to the test..and will get them the next job. ;)

I just really hope Micro P2 is going to be backwards compatible with the current infrastructure that's in place.
We're at the point now where we really need to stop worrying about the formats we record on. Apple invented ProRes and Panny the AVC-Codec. Both are damn impressive considering how far it's come from DVCProHD...I don't even want to get started with the frustrating XDCam.. Most productions finish to low bandwidth formats to broadcast anyways.

Focus on telling a better quality story and getting a better dynamic range and image quality from the camera...the formats that exist today can easily handle the high resolution and high speeds of the cameras already. How much true resolution does one need in order to feel fulfilled? The eye can't even register a full 4k image..

Please stop changing the formats every 5 years just to keep up with fashion statements.
If Micro P2 is to be the new standard...i can't imagine what it should be in 10 years from now. It'll come to a point where the formats and card productions will plateau because they'll be able to transfer GigaBits of data within seconds. The climb for image superiority will still be in full force until the end of time.

[zijital]

Here is a thought.... Duel adapter (or something like it) & Sonnet Expresscard 34 to Thunderbolt (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpresscard34thunderbolt.html). I know SxS is very different than P2, but they just got SxS support which makes me wonder if it would be possible to have P2 support. It'd be cheaper than the current USB card reader & faster.

Anyone with a newer Mac, P2 cards & about $250 (less if you already have a Duel adapter) want to try this out?

[countrymatters]

I love P2 and the workflow, I have been working with it for the past 3 years in a high pressure sports production field where I have one day to create a 52 minute magazine show from 4 hours of race footage - so I need the fastest, most reliable and most compact method available, and P2 has been the answer. Not to mention I prefer the Panasonic "look", and do not like long GOP codecs for sports.

But what is sorely lacking is a fast P2 reader - we've had thunderbolt now for over a year, and not even a sniff of a rumour at NAMM that I'm aware of??. Now that Intel supports both USB 3 and thunderbolt in their chipset, I sure hope that will speed development, thunderbolt has more than enough bandwidth to offload 5 P2 cards at once and quickly - in my opinion a massive advantage over XDCAM discs as they are still slow to ingest. A USB3/Thunderbolt reader would take us through to the next 5 years where the bandwidth would exceed the capacity of the media. AVC Ultra will push this even further. I realize there's a USB 3 reader now, but why only 3 slots? On a four camera shoot, this leaves us short, as we cut news directly from the cards using a PCD20 reader currently and there's time lag as the firewire 800 port isn't up to the task, but it's the fastest way for us to do this at the moment, to to mention us Mac users are not currently supported.

Panasonic, if you are listening, we desperately need better and faster ways of offloading our media - what's available now is insufficient considering technology already exists to dramatically speed this up. Plus adding thunderbolt to new cameras would function as both a monitoring tool and an offloading tool (the same way firewire 400 does in current cameras). Impatiently waiting....

[BillinSC]

The funny thing with all of this is there are a number of vendors that would gladly come up with the reader if Panasonic would license them to do so. This reader is a PCMCIA card reader at its' core. The R&D cannot be that much to get products that are already mainstream such as USB3 or Thunderbolt.

I also think the P2 cards are overpriced. I can see Panasonic making a profit, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that if they dropped the price a bit on the P2 cards, they would sell more of them.

Yes, I was excited to get the camera, but after a week with it, I am seriously reconsidering the purchase. There are other options that offer 10 bit 4:2:2 SDI output, and considering that it would be cheaper, it makes adding the Atomos Samurai very attractive. Interestingly enough, if you buy two P2 64 GB cards and a PCD2 reader, it is almost equal to the price of an Atomos Samurai.

[mcgeedigital]

I also think the P2 cards are overpriced. I can see Panasonic making a profit, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that if they dropped the price a bit on the P2 cards, they would sell more of them.

P2 prices have dropped regularly as the new models have come out. Check your history.


Yes, I was excited to get the camera, but after a week with it, I am seriously reconsidering the purchase. There are other options that offer 10 bit 4:2:2 SDI output, and considering that it would be cheaper, it makes adding the Atomos Samurai very attractive. Interestingly enough, if you buy two P2 64 GB cards and a PCD2 reader, it is almost equal to the price of an Atomos Samurai.

And how would hanging an external recorder help you with run and gun situations?

I am baffled.

[BillinSC]

You have a great point about the run and gun. There are always trade offs, however, at the end of the day it is a matter of risk/reward and the money one wants to put into the problem. Within the year it will probably be a moot point as SDHC will probably be ruling the solutions. They have already announced the micro-P2 (the Panasonic version of SDHC) In the end, I am comfortable with finding alternatives and living without the AVC Intra-100 codec for now. In the end, it is the quality of the edit and whether you conveyed the point with the body of work, not the technology you used to get it there.

[mcgeedigital]

Agreed.

[Jan_Crittenden]

They have already announced the micro-P2 (the Panasonic version of SDHC) .


Just so that there is no confusion, Micro P2 is not our version of SDHC or even SDXC or SDHC- UHS-1 or the upcoming UHS-2. It is a miniature SD sized card that has all of the technology and implementation of a P2 card, but in a small scale product. It has a Raid Controller, it has the parity checking, it has the error correction, every thing that happens in a P2 card and not on a SD cardis what micro P@ is all about. I know there are people that will poo-poo this and just live in the denial that the micro P2 is just a higher priced SD card, but it is not; it is a miniature P2 card.

Best,

jan

[ggrantly]

Since tape faded away to other various forms of memory, there has been an ongoing gripe that P2 is too expensive. I have cams that use both P2 and SD, and given the choice, I would use P2 every time in spite of the cost, the exception being if I needed really long form. There are so many new options for media, I am surprised that this griping about P2 pricing still exists. P2 has been pretty successful in the eng - broadcast realm, so a lot of professional level folks think it is the way to go. Of course I would prefer it to be less expensive, and it IS less expensive than it was. But for those that want cheaper, It is just so easy to satisfy their discontent, buy something else.

Grant

[Gary Huff]

I know there are people that will poo-poo this and just live in the denial that the micro P2 is just a higher priced SD card, but it is not; it is a miniature P2 card.

Can it be read by current SD card readers?

[zijital]

I know there are people that will poo-poo this and just live in the denial that the micro P2 is just a higher priced SD card, but it is not; it is a miniature P2 card.


Can it be read by current SD card readers?

I second this question.


And also add... Jan is Panasonic listening to this thread RE: Cheaper (faster) P2 reader?

OP:

Lots of 2012 NAB posts...I'll take a stab at this one as the appropriate spot for a question. Any cheap(er) usb3 P2 readers?

-----

P2 prices have dropped regularly as the new models have come out. Check your history.

First time I heard about P2, it was something like $2000 for 20GB of 4GB cards and it sounded reasonable for the "futuristic" work flow it was offering.

That was 2005, today in 2012 I think prices haven't dropped enough. A 64GB SSD that can record ProRes HQ (over twice the bit rate of P2) is about 15% the price of a 64GB P2 e-series card. I know all flash memory isn't created the same, but for me really be excited about P2, prices have to be in the same ballpark & right now they're on a different continent.


And how would hanging an external recorder help you with run and gun situations?

I use Lectrosonics wireless mics, & it isn't easy to mount one of those receivers onto a small camera. After I've figured out how to mount my Lectro, it isn't much harder to mount an off board recorder.

Yes Run-n-gun is easier if everything is built in, but I'll take an off board recorder if it means that I can record 6 hours of (equal quality or higher) content for the price of 1 hour of P2 content.

[Gary Huff]

I think P2 would be much more viable if Panasonic would release a USB3.0 or eSATA version of their single slot USB2.0 reader. It works just fine for what it does, but USB2 is so long in the tooth that it's annoying to sit there and wait for the footage to transfer.

eSATA, even with the necessary AC adapter, would be really awesome and would remove a big issue I currently have with the format.

However, I am happy that Panasonic has developed microP2, especially considering you can get an adapter for the older cameras. Moreso if I can find out that microP2 can work in typical SD card readers (i.e. the built-in one on the 15" MacBook Pro).

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

In 2005 the 4GB card was just under $2000. Today a 64GB card is less than half of that.

I believe that the SD card readers that are able to read Class 10 cards will be able to read the Micro P2 with a little bit of Software Driver.

Best,

Jan

[Gary Huff]

I believe that the SD card readers that are able to read Class 10 cards will be able to read the Micro P2 with a little bit of Software Driver.

Excellent news. Thanks, Jan!

[zijital]

In 2005 the 4GB card was just under $2000. Today a 64GB card is less than half of that.


I can't find 2005 data for SSD, but I can find 2007 data for SSD & P2.

According to this Panasonic Press Release (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-94231.html) & this Tom's Hardware article (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ssd-hdd-solid-state-drive-hard-disk-drive-prices,14336.html):
In 2007 a 32GB P2 card list price was $56/GB & the cost of SSD was $40/GB.
In 2007 P2 costs 40% more than SSD.

In 2012 a P2 64GB card sells for $630 or about $10/GB. A 64 GB SSD drive (blessed by BlackMagic to be fast enough for uncompressed HD footage, not just some random cheapo drive) costs $125 (or less) or about $2/GB
In 2012 P2 costs 500% more than SSD.
---

In the last five years P2 prices have gone down 75% while SSD prices have gone down 95%.

---

But back to the subject of this thread... I can get a SSD "reader" (aka enclosure) for $20-$50 with USB 2, USB 3, or Firewire. Or spend $350 for Sound Devices's Thunderbolt enclosure (+ $100 for the Pix caddy). The same price as a USB 2 P2 reader (I guess the P2 reader is cheaper since you don't need to buy the caddy too, but still slower).

I really wish that there was more news of a P2 reader at NAB that was closer in line to what SSDs can offer. I'm glad the AJ-PCD2GPJ exists, but damn is that thing slow & feels out dated when I look at SSD workflows. And the price of a faster P2 reader is about the cost of an off camera recorder.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

Arguing that the cost of the P2 card should be the same as a SSD is simply like arguing that Apples should taste like oranges. They are not the same sort of device in architecture or function. An SSD does not do parity checking, error Correction or Concealment. Nor does it have a Raid controller.

The only viable comparison on P2 is to itself and it has come down in price over the course of the years.

The offload devices are what they are and they work. If you need the faster device, then perhaps the purchase of the faster device is in order.

While it would be nice, at this point in time it is not available.

Best regards,

Jan

[BillinSC]

I have been convinced that the P2 cards are the way to go. When I see the work from the P2 based cameras, and in communicating with Jan, I have to say that there is no doubt in my mind about the medium being sound. I just had to be a bit more convinced and I am now. I just placed an order for more P2 cards. I guess you buy into a complete ecosystem when you go P2.

In the end I still think we need USB 3 or thunderbolt on the card readers, but I will wait. Jan, thank you for taking the time to talk with us on the these forums. I appreciate your presence here.

[Mark Williams]

Your comparison of the quality of video shot to SxS cards and P2 cards does not make sense to me. The EX3 can produce excellent video as can P2 cameras in skilled hands. I do think P2 cards are robust and that is partially why I bought in to the system. I off load P2 with a $100 Amtron card reader. http://www.amtron.com/reader/pcdtp110cs.htm

[zijital]

An SSD does not do parity checking, error Correction or Concealment. Nor does it have a Raid controller.

...

The offload devices are what they are and they work. If you need the faster device, then perhaps the purchase of the faster device is in order.

Thanks for replying. I'm glad that you have a presence here & I'm hoping that you're passing along the desire for a faster (& cheap) reader. I don't care if it says Panasonic or Lexar on the label, I just want something that works, is priced near other readers & faster than what we can get now for $300.

I agree that comparing the "guts" of P2 to other flash media is apples to oranges. But if your metric is that your footage is reliably recorded to your media at the end of the day, I can get my serving of fruit if I eat an apple or an orange. Sometimes the bottom line is the most important factor.


Granted, these guys probably did not know what they were doing, but my organization shelled out 5K for a poorly done 12 minute video. I guess you buy into a complete ecosystem when you go P2.

In the end I still think we need USB 3 or thunderbolt on the card readers, but I will wait. Jan, thank you for taking the time to talk with us on the these forums. I appreciate your presence here.

If you shot "Citizen Kane" on VHS & "Battlefield Earth" on an Arri Alexa, which one would be a better movie?

It is a lot more about the craftsman than the tools. The guys that did a horrible job on a EX3 will probably do a horrible job if they shot with P2.

I've shot a bunch on P2 & it offers a lot of great features. In 2005 I was very much sold on P2 & thought it was perfect fit for ENG. Now in 2012 I'm out of ENG work & the stuff I do means I don't hold P2 in the same "perfect fit" place anymore. YMMV