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View Full Version : GH2 Anyone else looking to upgrade their GH2 for the Blackmagic Camera?



Jaime Valles
04-17-2012, 06:58 PM
So, Blackmagic Design's new camera looks to be every GH2 owner's dream cam:

2.5K resolution
Similar size to Micro 4/3 sensor
RAW 12-bit CinemaDNG recording
1080p ProRes and DNxHD recording
Off-the-shelf SSD drives on board
13 stops dynamic range
$3000
My only wish is that it could use Micro 4/3 lenses (currently it only works with EF lenses such as Canon and Zeiss ZE). DP John Brawley (who shot test footage on a pre-production camera HERE (http://vimeopro.com/johnbrawleytests/blackmagic-cinema-camera)) says that Blackmagic is aware that people want Micro 4/3 mount as well as PL mount. If they do indeed come out with a M4/3 mount version, how many of you would jump ship from the GH2 + hack?

I certainly would.

I'm only interested in shooting narrative cinema (not event work, documentary or run-n-gun) so the RAW workflow doesn't scare me. It frees me from the tyranny of 8-bit 4:2:0 footage in the grading suite. It's small, simple to use, and presumably doesn't have any of the quirks of the GH2 (the ISO bug, aliasing, etc.) and 13 stops dynamic range should be amazing. I hear some folks are somewhat worried about low light performance, but I don't shoot in low light (narrative only with pre-planned lighting) so that doesn't really bother me.

At $3000 it's certainly a step up from an $800 GH2, but for me it seems like a no-brainer... once they make one with a Micro 4/3 mount. I want to use my Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95 and SLR Magic 12mm f/1.6 on this baby!

Who else is thinking of jumping ship?:evil:

Gary Huff
04-17-2012, 07:03 PM
All those who can afford $3k. A lot of those who can't will compare it unfavorably to the GH2. :D

aljudy
04-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Also realize that you know all the warts on the GH2 already, but have yet to learn them in this new cam. What do they say: the grass isn't always greener on the other side... Al

strancali
04-17-2012, 07:34 PM
I would jump ship for those specs (or maybe not jump ship but add it on). Blackmagic knew exactly who to target when they made it with the EF mounts. Who in their right mind would buy another dslr in that price range when they can get the Blackmagic Camera. I was so excited when I heard the news yesterday and I am waiting for it to come out. July come already!

Julie_Freed
04-17-2012, 07:52 PM
Jaime, have you seen sample footage? I cannot find anything. Is it a definite guarantee that this new camera will provide better image quality than a hacked GH2?

Kholi
04-17-2012, 07:55 PM
http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/ -- footage here, and John Brawley's first thoughts.

strancali
04-17-2012, 07:58 PM
Julie, here's a sample http://vimeopro.com/johnbrawleytests/blackmagic-cinema-camera/video/40290704 . With the specs from the BM cam, I'm sure the footage will look better after grading of course but I wouldn't drop the GH2 just yet.

DPStewart
04-17-2012, 08:08 PM
Heck - the way things are moving, the iPhone 8 will probably shoot 4K video with "Vintage Lens Emulation" software inside and cost $299...

In 15 years you KNOW my joke will have long since come true.....

Sometimes it is almost scary.

strancali
04-17-2012, 08:10 PM
kholi, your thoughts on the BlackMagic Camera please :). You gave me a lot of kick ass info and opinions regarding the GH2 via the vimeo message (in case you forgot) and I would love to know what you think so far :).

strancali
04-17-2012, 08:11 PM
Heck - the way things are moving, the iPhone 8 will probably shoot 4K video with "Vintage Lens Emulation" software inside and cost $299...

In 15 years you KNOW my joke will have long since come true.....

Sometimes it is almost scary.

lol, "like"

ed_lee83
04-17-2012, 08:24 PM
I think it depends on what you shoot.
I'd love to use the BMD cam for film/music video but not for events, run 'n gun stuff - especially when the platform is web.
I reckon I would still use the GH2 anyway.
SSDs are still pricy and I don't know the recording capacity.

Julie_Freed
04-17-2012, 08:44 PM
Julie, here's a sample http://vimeopro.com/johnbrawleytests/blackmagic-cinema-camera/video/40290704 . With the specs from the BM cam, I'm sure the footage will look better after grading of course but I wouldn't drop the GH2 just yet.

Ha, I just noticed this is clearly in the OP. Somehow I missed it. Thanks. :)

Kholi
04-17-2012, 09:09 PM
kholi, your thoughts on the BlackMagic Camera please :). You gave me a lot of kick ass info and opinions regarding the GH2 via the vimeo message (in case you forgot) and I would love to know what you think so far :).

Initial thoughts?

Hmm.... let's see how short I can make this.

I only wanted Panasonic to iron out weird operational kinks, improved rolling shutter, better DR. I would pay 1,999.99 for the GH3 in that condition without a kit lens, and that's before any hack reared its head.

The Magic Cam's 2845.00 for the body, and at the expense of a slightly smaller sensor--judging from John's very early test footage, I get what Jaime listed? I also get my own copy of one of the industry's leading color tools to go with it?

Barry says there's no free lunch, and he's right, there isn't. I genuinely hope they find a way to open the camera mount up to more options like PL and M4/3 before shipping, and against the odds I'll hold out hope for a 720/60 of the full active sensor area recorded to ProRes 422 (if it's even possible, not sure if it is.). The battery solution will be a bit trying at first, it is slightly strange and I also am a little timid about the rolling shutter reports. I can't imagine it being worse than GH2, but stranger things happen.

I'm number two at an authorized retailer as of 10AM this morning.

Too bad it's not coming sooner.

Depending on how it pans out, I'll keep the GH2 for slow mo on all small projects and anything more's a rental item/favor pulled.

It seems like there won't be anything else between now and October at least. From July to October I'll make as much of it as the camera will allow. =]

strancali
04-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Initial thoughts?

Hmm.... let's see how short I can make this.



hahaha I love it. It's actually pretty short compared to your other discussions :thumbsup:

I'm all for the magic cam. I can't believe the price for all the features. As far as mounts go, they have to go with canon mounts in the beginning to scoop up all the dslr customers first. I'm sure other mount options will be coming soon. These guys do listen to what people are crying out for.

Now I gotta ask, how did you get the second in line? Are there any deposits required or do we just sign up?

Kholi
04-17-2012, 09:53 PM
hahaha I love it. It's actually pretty short compared to your other discussions :thumbsup:

I'm all for the magic cam. I can't believe the price for all the features. As far as mounts go, they have to go with canon mounts in the beginning to scoop up all the dslr customers first. I'm sure other mount options will be coming soon. These guys do listen to what people are crying out for.

Now I gotta ask, how did you get the second in line? Are there any deposits required or do we just sign up?

I agree with you. It wasn't a dumb move, it was very well planned. EF can take Nikon glass still, and there are EF to AI-S mounts that'll control newer glass. I can still mount everything I own as of right now, because I never invested in M4/3 glass, anyway.

For a reservation, someone tipped me off to Markertec. They're one of the authorized dealers on the website. You have to do a credit card authorization of the entire amount, but it's just an authorization, meaning it'll show up but drop off in a day or so.

strancali
04-17-2012, 09:56 PM
Nice, I'll have a look!

strancali
04-17-2012, 09:57 PM
Ha, I just noticed this is clearly in the OP. Somehow I missed it. Thanks. :)

No problem Julie :).

Trucci
04-17-2012, 10:08 PM
I'm kind of stuck in a dilemma. I want to pre-order this and get it as early as possible, but I don't want to regret getting it early if the MFT version ends up coming a little later. I'm aiming for a feature in the fall, and I don't want to be doing post work thinking "damn, if only I had an extra four stops for this shot" either. I also have a feeling supply won't meet demand and it'll be like hunting for a GH2 when it first came out all over again. But yeah, the MFT version I would get in a heartbeat. I'll probably keep the GH2 for slow motion and as a B-cam. With all the DSLR dumping that's going to happen this summer, I don't think I'd get much for it anyways hehe.

GrahamH
04-17-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm invested in m4/3 lenses and like them, so would only consider upgrading to the BMC if/when they provide an m4/3 mount option with (at least) iris control.

I'll likely wait until early 2013 to see what shakes out, and at that point choose between the GH3 and BMC, depending on their respective specs and reviews. AF200 would have been a contender, except it seems to be AWOL ...

strancali
04-17-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm kind of stuck in a dilemma. I want to pre-order this and get it as early as possible, but I don't want to regret getting it early if the MFT version ends up coming a little later. I'm aiming for a feature in the fall, and I don't want to be doing post work thinking "damn, if only I had an extra four stops for this shot" either. I also have a feeling supply won't meet demand and it'll be like hunting for a GH2 when it first came out all over again. But yeah, the MFT version I would get in a heartbeat. I'll probably keep the GH2 for slow motion and as a B-cam. With all the DSLR dumping that's going to happen this summer, I don't think I'd get much for it anyways hehe.

I'd say go for it. Like you said, with all the demands it'll be like hunting for a gh2. I can confidently say that there will be a lot of dslr dumping but not the gh2. The only way you will lose out on a gh2 is if there are discounts on a new unit from Panny otherwise, the gh2 will still be sought after. What version is the MFT??

strancali
04-17-2012, 10:30 PM
doh! you meant Micro Four Thirds lol

dvxhutch
04-18-2012, 04:12 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 05:40 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

And so it begins...

TheDingo
04-18-2012, 06:34 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

The camera is not finished yet, so there's no point in trying to compare the image quality at this point. Wait for the finished production camera in July.

TheDingo
04-18-2012, 06:37 AM
...I will keep an eye on this new BM camera, and stick with my GH2 until somebody produces a version of the BM camera with a Micro 4/3 mount. ( even if it's a third party custom conversion )

And then there always is the GH3, when ever that shows up this year.

stoneinapond
04-18-2012, 06:55 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

It's just you.....

Andor
04-18-2012, 07:00 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

But it is. Sure, that footage may be less interesting versus a different videographer's stuff... It's the idea of RAW, 2.5k, and $3000. Not to mention more DR. Now we wait and see how it holds up.

stoneinapond
04-18-2012, 07:08 AM
But it is. Sure, that footage may be less interesting versus a different videographer's stuff... It's the idea of RAW, 2.5k, and $3000. Not to mention more DR. Now we wait and see how it holds up.

+1

Alex Roman
04-18-2012, 07:17 AM
Who else is thinking of jumping ship?:evil:

I'll definitely do! I'm in the same ship:just narrative films so it really seems a wise choice for all of us. Still need to get one of these RAW to do proper grading tests and check again this poor sharpness (not to mention the final mount options)... BUT god... can't wait to put my hand into this baby ;)

jdesignhi
04-18-2012, 07:20 AM
Is it just me or were the test shots by John Brawley nothing special? Doesn't seem better to my eye than the hacked GH2.

So true!

New, unreleased cameras are a major excuse for not doing any work... "oh, just wait ʻtil I get my new "ABCD Deluxe" camera, I am gonna be the shit!"

Ho hum.

Now, Iʻm going back to work...

John Brawley
04-18-2012, 07:31 AM
The camera is not finished yet, so there's no point in trying to compare the image quality at this point. Wait for the finished production camera in July.


I'm hoping I can put some of the other tests we've been doing up soon. Shoots' that are more than just me and a tripod out and about. We also have some more shoots planed as well. THE BMD guys just want to keep things simple. They know how hysterical people can get around NAB.....

jb

Alex Roman
04-18-2012, 07:40 AM
THE BMD guys just want to keep things simple. They know how hysterical people can get around NAB.....

jb

Amen :)

brunerww
04-18-2012, 07:52 AM
There is an amazing grade (http://i.imgur.com/mZGmW.jpg) of one of John Brawley's frames from the MagicCam over on the 100 page(!) BlackMagic Cinema Camera thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280186-BlackMagic-Cinema-camera!!!!-2-5k-for-3k&p=1986128059&viewfull=1#post1986128059). Pixel peepers should go over there and check it out.

I absolutely love my GH2, but its comparatively poor DR and 8 bit colorspace are a problem for me, hack or no hack.

I am on the waiting list for the BMD at Mac Business Systems (https://store.mbsdirect.com/product.php?productid=1461&cat=&page=1). They're local, so I can drive up when the camera gets here. For those who want to pre-order, they will put your name on the list without taking a credit card number.

I still have one Canon EF lens left over from T2i days, and my Nikon glass can be easily adapted to EF (I sold my adapter with the T2i, but they're not very expensive).

I will keep the GH2 for stills and as a B-cam, if I can afford to, and buy Leica R glass from here on out, adapting it to the GH2 with the DMW-MA3R (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMW-MA3R-Series-Thirds-Adapter/dp/B002NKM2WY?tag=battleforthew-20) and to the MagicCam with a Kipon Leica R to EOS adapter with focus confirm (http://www.amazon.com/Kipon-Leica-Mount-Adapter-Confirmation/dp/B004QPJYDY?tag=battleforthew-20).

There is some good Leica R glass out there for about the same price as a decent micro 4/3 lens - like the Leica Vario Elmar-R 28-70 f3.5- 4.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Leica-Vario-Elmar-R-Zoom-lens-3-5-4-5/dp/B00009V3FJ?tag=battleforthew-20).

Thanks, BlackMagic!

L1N3ARX
04-18-2012, 07:54 AM
What's so cool about this camera, is that there are a lot of similarities aesthetically speaking with the gh2. The motion cadence, and the general look of the footage (minus the softness) is very organic and would work nicely together with the gh2 serving as a b cam. I think the BM is essentially the gh2 on steroids, with most of the goodies that everyone has wanted since it first came out. Honestly despite the samples thus far, I can already tell in the right hands this will be an absolute killer, the DR is simply amazing. And to think, this baby is head and shoulders a more attractive product than 1DC at 1/5th of the price.

Is anyone else having a hard time containing their excitement? Getting to the point here where I'm mentioning this camera to people who have only shot video on their iphones trying to explain the awesomeness... I have to settle down. There's simply never been a better time to be a filmmaker.

dcloud
04-18-2012, 08:16 AM
Ill sell my gh2 for a gh3... I still love using the tiny gh2 for regular non work stuff.

Ill sell my af100 for this bmc though. Have to wait for the reviews to come in.

AdrianF
04-18-2012, 08:28 AM
I will probably look to upgrade my GH1 to a GH3 ( or similar ) at some point, even if I had this camera. There are so many gaps between them, as well as places where they will probably compliment each other. It might be sensible to wait out the next couple of months and see if there will be an m43 version in the making. If not ( or it would be a long way off ), I think I would go with the EF mount and look at adapting legacy glass.

wgzn
04-18-2012, 08:28 AM
but why does it have to be so God awful UGLY? the thing looks like a clock radio : (

wgzn
04-18-2012, 08:32 AM
and im not really sure why everyone is clamoring for an m4/3 mount? isnt the lack of really good m4/3 glass one of the drawbacks to the GH2?

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 08:40 AM
and im not really sure why everyone is clamoring for an m4/3 mount? isnt the lack of really good m4/3 glass one of the drawbacks to the GH2?

It's all about the Voigtlanders.

ErikTande
04-18-2012, 08:47 AM
The ability to shoot raw is nice, but there's no way I'd give up a $600 camera that shooting amazing video for a $4000 camera that only shoots 30fps.

I really like the design of the black magic though, very streamlined, plug ssdrives right into it, it's a cool camera.

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 08:49 AM
The ability to shoot raw is nice, but there's no way I'd give up a $600 camera that shooting amazing video for a $4000 camera that only shoots 30fps

Did you mean to put an "only up to" before the "30fps" in that?

AdrianF
04-18-2012, 08:49 AM
Yeah, m43 mount would open up a lot of possibilities. Lots of varying adapters are available.

I did a bit of research last night and from what I could figure out, EF adapters are available for m42, OM, MD, F and a few more. I'm not sure how these would all work out flange distance wise though.

iunknown
04-18-2012, 08:56 AM
hahaha I love it. It's actually pretty short compared to your other discussions :thumbsup:

I'm all for the magic cam. I can't believe the price for all the features. As far as mounts go, they have to go with canon mounts in the beginning to scoop up all the dslr customers first. I'm sure other mount options will be coming soon. These guys do listen to what people are crying out for.

Now I gotta ask, how did you get the second in line? Are there any deposits required or do we just sign up?


I think the reason that they went with the EOS mount is that it is no longer proprietary (the patent expired as its been around longer than 25 years). With the 4/3rd's they might have had to pay a licensing fee? So they are leaving it up to third parties to deal with it???

Kholi
04-18-2012, 08:58 AM
The ability to shoot raw is nice, but there's no way I'd give up a $600 camera that shooting amazing video for a $4000 camera that only shoots 30fps.

I really like the design of the black magic though, very streamlined, plug ssdrives right into it, it's a cool camera.

Not disagreeing with your opinion, but wanted to comment on the price:

The Magic Cam's 2845.00 (from Markertec). That's a fair bit less than four thousand dollars.

iunknown
04-18-2012, 09:13 AM
Not disagreeing with your opinion, but wanted to comment on the price:

The Magic Cam's 2845.00 (from Markertec). That's a fair bit less than four thousand dollars.

I think he means with accessories added, the ssd needed to actually do a job, etc. I guess some people don't do much grading to care about raw. Dealing with 8-bits, drives me nuts.

Kholi
04-18-2012, 09:19 AM
I think he means with accessories added, the ssd needed to actually do a job, etc. I guess some people don't do much grading to care about raw. Dealing with 8-bits, drives me nuts.

SSD's cost 150~250.00, so even then you're still not 4,000.00 to start shooting with the camera.

Oddly enough, a 128gb SSD costs as much or less than I paid for a single 64gb 95mb/s Sandisk card to be able to run stable hacks in a production environment. =P

Trucci
04-18-2012, 09:20 AM
and im not really sure why everyone is clamoring for an m4/3 mount? isnt the lack of really good m4/3 glass one of the drawbacks to the GH2?

An m4/3 mount with this sensor size can adapt Nikon F/Pentax/Canon EF/FD, but not the other way around. m4/3 lacked good glass in 2009, but now there are many more options including some wide glass this camera could use. That said, I think the Canon EF mount is by far the next best choice since it can adapt Pentax and Nikon.

ErikTande
04-18-2012, 09:47 AM
Not disagreeing with your opinion, but wanted to comment on the price:

The Magic Cam's 2845.00 (from Markertec). That's a fair bit less than four thousand dollars.


Whoops, I was way off on price.

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 09:56 AM
That said, I think the Canon EF mount is by far the next best choice since it can adapt Pentax and Nikon.

Agreed, though I think BM picking the EF mount was the best all-around choice.

wgzn
04-18-2012, 10:00 AM
SSD's cost 150~250.00
well. that depends on size, brand and quality


Oddly enough, a 128gb SSD costs as much or less than I paid for a single 64gb 95mb/s Sandisk card to be able to run stable hacks in a production environment. =P
how much footage will a 128g hold? i know with the hyperdeck, the metrics fell off pretty quickly since it was a less compressed more robust image, it wasnt a 1:1 comparison to original dvcprohd...

dcloud
04-18-2012, 10:11 AM
Its 3000 and if you guys cant see it the DR is amazing. Thats all i actually want from this cam... Along with the raw encoding... :)

Kholi
04-18-2012, 10:33 AM
well. that depends on size, brand and quality


Two to three years ago this really made a difference. Now, most manufacturers are up to the spec needed to handle this footage. We just need to know if it's sata3 spec which Igather it is.

You should be able to find a pair for a decent amount.



how much footage will a 128g hold? i know with the hyperdeck, the metrics fell off pretty quickly since it was a less compressed more robust image, it wasnt a 1:1 comparison to original dvcprohd...

Im at urgent care right now and my phone is no good for the surfings of net. But, I think a 256gb drive was quoted to keep 30minutes 2.5k dng.

So 15 minutes for every 128gb mag.

Ive got four 64gb Ssds and I'm wondering if theyll work for the 2.5K but I'm likely to get three 128gb cards for a continuous cycle.

You get much more space shooting log Prores though.

Jaime Valles
04-18-2012, 11:00 AM
It's all about the Voigtlanders.
Bingo. I don't own a single electronic m4/3 lens. For narrative filmmaking, the best lenses (in terms of operational useability) are all-manual with long focus throws. Lenses like the Voigtlanders, SLR Magics and Canon FDs are ideal for this, plus they're great in low light. The first thing I did when I got my GH2 was to sell the 14-42mm kit lens that came with it and bought a 50mm f/1.4 Canon FD on eBay.

If you're shooting more run and gun, event or documentary footage, then you'd want the lenses with autofocus, etc. But then I wouldn't use the GH2 for those types of shoots anyways. You're far better off using a 1/3" fixed-lens camera for that with a long-range zoom lens and auto everything optional.

Sage
04-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Look for the type of controller on the SSD*

strancali
04-18-2012, 11:30 AM
There is an amazing grade (http://i.imgur.com/mZGmW.jpg) of one of John Brawley's frames from the MagicCam over on the 100 page(!) BlackMagic Cinema Camera thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280186-BlackMagic-Cinema-camera!!!!-2-5k-for-3k&p=1986128059&viewfull=1#post1986128059). Pixel peepers should go over there and check it out.

I absolutely love my GH2, but its comparatively poor DR and 8 bit colorspace are a problem for me, hack or no hack.

I am on the waiting list for the BMD at Mac Business Systems (https://store.mbsdirect.com/product.php?productid=1461&cat=&page=1). They're local, so I can drive up when the camera gets here. For those who want to pre-order, they will put your name on the list without taking a credit card number.

I still have one Canon EF lens left over from T2i days, and my Nikon glass can be easily adapted to EF (I sold my adapter with the T2i, but they're not very expensive).

I will keep the GH2 for stills and as a B-cam, if I can afford to, and buy Leica R glass from here on out, adapting it to the GH2 with the DMW-MA3R (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMW-MA3R-Series-Thirds-Adapter/dp/B002NKM2WY?tag=battleforthew-20) and to the MagicCam with a Kipon Leica R to EOS adapter with focus confirm (http://www.amazon.com/Kipon-Leica-Mount-Adapter-Confirmation/dp/B004QPJYDY?tag=battleforthew-20).

There is some good Leica R glass out there for about the same price as a decent micro 4/3 lens - like the Leica Vario Elmar-R 28-70 f3.5- 4.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Leica-Vario-Elmar-R-Zoom-lens-3-5-4-5/dp/B00009V3FJ?tag=battleforthew-20).

Thanks, BlackMagic!

Well said, I'm on the list too. Can't wait!!!!!

stefancolson
04-18-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm definitely going to be in for one as well, as long as there are no big surprises along the way.

The main things that I don't like about the GH2 are the limited dynamic range, 8-bit color sampling, ergonomics, baked in (relatively) high-contrast, and lack of EF lens control. The Blackmagic cam does something about all of those, and has me extremely excited.

Anyone who does a lot of stills work knows how absolutely revolutionary a raw workflow is to the process. I have been wanting the kind of gradeability and post latitude that is available in still formats for ages, and it's finally a reality without a cost-prohibitive barrier of entry.

The GH2 stays as a second camera, for concerts and events, personal work, incognito shooting, etc.

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 12:16 PM
The GH2 is still a great camera and there's no shame in sticking with it for now.

leteeci
04-18-2012, 12:21 PM
EF mount is really dumb for wider lenses for that sensor size..

On the other hand.. For the price of Sony F3, I can now buy both FS700 for slow-mo and BM-CAM for High DR narrative.. Cool

Gary Huff
04-18-2012, 12:51 PM
EF mount is really dumb for wider lenses for that sensor size.

I can guarantee you that BM did not make that decision based on the amount of wider lenses available. It was about what kind of lenses most of their potential customers would already have at their disposal.

Thomas Smet
04-18-2012, 01:09 PM
EF mount is really dumb for wider lenses for that sensor size..



I'm not sure that it really true. We have the Olympus 12mm, the 20mm and some awesome 24mm but EF has all of those plus a lot more options in those focal lengths. Plus EF has lenses even wider then 12mm and they actually have decent zooms at f2.8. I love M43 but in terms of the wide options we currently have EF seems to have it more then covered with the exception of one or two lenses. I just found a sigma EF 20mm f1.8 that while it costs more should give similar results to the pancake lens. A 20mm EF is the same as a 20mm M43.

Zephyrnoid
04-18-2012, 01:38 PM
There is an amazing grade (http://i.imgur.com/mZGmW.jpg) of one of John Brawley's frames from the MagicCam over on the 100 page(!) BlackMagic Cinema Camera thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280186-BlackMagic-Cinema-camera%21%21%21%21-2-5k-for-3k&p=1986128059&viewfull=1#post1986128059). Pixel peepers should go over there and check it out.

I absolutely love my GH2, but its comparatively poor DR and 8 bit colorspace are a problem for me, hack or no hack.

I am on the waiting list for the BMD at Mac Business Systems (https://store.mbsdirect.com/product.php?productid=1461&cat=&page=1). They're local, so I can drive up when the camera gets here. For those who want to pre-order, they will put your name on the list without taking a credit card number.

I still have one Canon EF lens left over from T2i days, and my Nikon glass can be easily adapted to EF (I sold my adapter with the T2i, but they're not very expensive).

I will keep the GH2 for stills and as a B-cam, if I can afford to, and buy Leica R glass from here on out, adapting it to the GH2 with the DMW-MA3R (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMW-MA3R-Series-Thirds-Adapter/dp/B002NKM2WY?tag=battleforthew-20) and to the MagicCam with a Kipon Leica R to EOS adapter with focus confirm (http://www.amazon.com/Kipon-Leica-Mount-Adapter-Confirmation/dp/B004QPJYDY?tag=battleforthew-20).

There is some good Leica R glass out there for about the same price as a decent micro 4/3 lens - like the Leica Vario Elmar-R 28-70 f3.5- 4.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Leica-Vario-Elmar-R-Zoom-lens-3-5-4-5/dp/B00009V3FJ?tag=battleforthew-20).

Thanks, BlackMagic!
It's not an amazing grade but it dutifully shows up the codec artifacts in the sky. Yuck!
Say hi to Sonny Trohan for me :)

Zephyrnoid
04-18-2012, 01:43 PM
but why does it have to be so God awful UGLY? the thing looks like a clock radio : (

Aesthetics is personal. As a designer, I find the BMC minimalist aesthetic very functional and beautiful. Much as I like the look of the RED, I find its machine-age steampunk chic a bit über-industrial looking. If I could get my flip Mino HD to do 4K RAW that would be ideal. Think of this as a pro Mino HD ;)

Aki_Hartikainen
04-18-2012, 01:58 PM
I need to be able to use Minolta MD lenses for this to work for me. The Nikon and Canon FD lenses just aren't as good as many believe. Minolta MD lenses are better than Canon L glass. I hope BMD could hear this.

Thomas Smet
04-18-2012, 01:59 PM
It's not an amazing grade but it dutifully shows up the codec artifacts in the sky. Yuck!
Say hi to Sonny Trohan for me :)

You do realize the source was a highly compressed 8 bit jpeg, right? This is nowhere near what to expect from the quality of the camera.

gonzo_entertainment
04-18-2012, 02:09 PM
Heck - the way things are moving, the iPhone 8 will probably shoot 4K video with "Vintage Lens Emulation" software inside and cost $299...

In 15 years you KNOW my joke will have long since come true.....

Sometimes it is almost scary.

And it won't make one single person a better filmmaker. It will just cause more people to think they can point the magic box at stuff and have a movie come out.

Sage
04-18-2012, 02:21 PM
Consider this: nothing has changed. The intra Gh2 is the same exact camera it was yesterday: a plastic explosive that compares favorably with the material from cinema cameras (hard to distinguish when handled by a good colorist). It meets certain 'standards of image quality', that no other affordable camera had come close to. A few motions of the pen will benefit the film one-thousand times more than a little finer image (character over camera). Just something to consider.

Kholi
04-18-2012, 02:31 PM
The thread title is not "will this camera make me a better filmmaker?"

It is: Anyone else looking to upgrade their GH2 for the Blackmagic Camera?

There's another thread that posts like these are more appropriate in, here it goes: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?280069-The-movie-cinema-look-Please-debate-and-discuss-give-your-opinions!

The thread died very fast, feel free to revive it. Let's leave this one on topic.

strancali
04-18-2012, 02:38 PM
Let's not compare this to the GH2 either. I mean, the GH2 is a $700 beast. Why would you want to trade up even if you get the BMD?? People have been crying for "3k for $3k" and now you have something very close and I still see some complaints. You know, there's a bum in Santa Monica who found $1,000,000 in a dumpster and wasn't happy because it wasn't $2,000,000 - hypothetically speaking :)

stoneinapond
04-18-2012, 02:44 PM
You do realize the source was a highly compressed 8 bit jpeg, right? This is nowhere near what to expect from the quality of the camera.

He made a similar post in another thread. Although the gist of your reply was pointed out to him, unless he doesn't read answers to his own posts, he's trolling.

Thomas Smet
04-18-2012, 02:44 PM
Let's not compare this to the GH2 either. I mean, the GH2 is a $700 beast. Why would you want to trade up even if you get the BMD?? People have been crying for "3k for $3k" and now you have something very close and I still see some complaints. You know, there's a bum in Santa Monica who found $1,000,000 in a dumpster and wasn't happy because it wasn't $2,000,000 - hypothetically speaking :)

I think I know that guy.

mcbob
04-18-2012, 02:45 PM
I'd be more inclined towards a D800 than the BMDCam, mostly in value of versatility.

That said, the only things I'm upgrading for the next year or two are lens and support equipment. Camerawise, I'm fine.

Kholi
04-18-2012, 03:03 PM
http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/another-blackmagic-clip/ more footage--for those that aren't in the other thread.

Jaime Valles
04-18-2012, 03:49 PM
Consider this: nothing has changed. The intra Gh2 is the same exact camera it was yesterday: a plastic explosive that compares favorably with the material from cinema cameras (hard to distinguish when handled by a good colorist). It meets certain 'standards of image quality', that no other affordable camera had come close to. A few motions of the pen will benefit the film one-thousand times more than a little finer image (character over camera). Just something to consider.
Oh, I agree completely. If you can't make a good movie with a GH2, the Blackmagic Camera won't help either. And I never meant to imply that I dislike the GH2. I love mine! Especially considering the price, the quality it can put out with the Intra hack is astounding.

The GH2 isn't perfect, though. My complaints are mostly all about usability, not image quality. ISO bug, playback issues with some hacks, flimsy mini-HDMI connector for monitoring, etc. These are the things that I want to upgrade from, and the Blackmagic seems to fit the bill. On top of that, there's no more 8-bit 4:2:0 footage! No more macroblocking or banding in the sky! No more in-camera sharpening! No more aliasing! It's more than 3x the cost of a GH2, but, for me, it's worth the cost. If only somebody would figure out how to match up m4/3 lenses with it!!!

OldCorpse
04-18-2012, 04:15 PM
How will it compare to the GH2 in low light capabilities? Once it hits the streets, we'll see how it fares - just as the GH2 has the ISO bug, banding and so forth, it's pretty much a given that the BMC will have its share of issues - sure, they'll fix it in the next iteration, but there will also be a GH3 (hopefully) fixing some of the GH2 issues.

Personally, I'll wait until the BMC has been well and tried by many people out there in the field, instead of getting orgasms over specs and theoretical cameras. The GH2 is here, it's real, we know it's limitations and, crucially workarounds. If you need to shoot something in the near future, and the GH2 was good enough, I don't see how this NAB changes anything.

In short: I'll wait and see. And yeah, you may not be interested in the low-light capability, but for my project it's absolutely critical.

stoneinapond
04-18-2012, 04:47 PM
http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/another-blackmagic-clip/ more footage--for those that aren't in the other thread.

Wow, that's sweet.

Jaime Valles
04-18-2012, 05:19 PM
How will it compare to the GH2 in low light capabilities? Once it hits the streets, we'll see how it fares - just as the GH2 has the ISO bug, banding and so forth, it's pretty much a given that the BMC will have its share of issues - sure, they'll fix it in the next iteration, but there will also be a GH3 (hopefully) fixing some of the GH2 issues.
Indeed. Every camera has its glitches and idiosyncrasies, and the BMCC will be no exception.

However, unlike the Lumix G series cameras, Blackmagic is focusing exclusively on the needs of the filmmaker. Panasonic has so far intended the Lumix cameras for consumers only. That's why I'm not really expecting them to fix much with the next GH3. Sure, they'll add features (probably 1080p60), but I don't think they'll ever add stuff like timecode, waveforms or vectorscopes, balanced audio inputs, and certainly not RAW 12-bit recording or 4:2:2. They'll keep them in the AVCHD family because it's easy for consumers, and that's what consumers want. We're the minority here. We're the one hacking our cameras to deliver intra-frame codecs and better motion cadence. Most consumers don't care, and they shouldn't.

That's what I find so appealing about the Blackmagic Cinema Camera. It's made by people who understand the world of low-budget filmmakers. That makes all the difference in the world.

Sage
04-18-2012, 05:23 PM
All sound points, Jaime.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-18-2012, 06:26 PM
The concept of this camera is extremely appealing, but the smaller sensor is not. I was actually hoping for a S35 sized camera to offer similar recording capabilities.

wgzn
04-18-2012, 07:12 PM
As a designer, I find the BMC minimalist aesthetic very functional and beautiful.
my primary vocation is design. and i still say it looks like a clock radio.

ras815
04-18-2012, 08:03 PM
The concept of this camera is extremely appealing, but the smaller sensor is not. I was actually hoping for a S35 sized camera to offer similar recording capabilities.

Why? When in the past has S16 ever been a problem? From what I've seen thus far, the sensor size is a complete non-issue.

KyleProhaska
04-18-2012, 08:07 PM
my primary vocation is design. and i still say it looks like a clock radio.

Even if it WAS a clock radio...if it shot 2.5K 12-bit RAW with 13 stops of DR I wouldn't have a problem waking up to that baby every morning. :)

GrahamH
04-18-2012, 08:33 PM
Why? When in the past has S16 ever been a problem? From what I've seen thus far, the sensor size is a complete non-issue.

While I agree with you, have you been unaware of the past several years of endless whining from the DSLR crowd about the 'inadequate' DOF-control provided by m4/3 lenses?

mcbob
04-18-2012, 09:19 PM
If it was actually S16 and had a µ43-ish adaptable mount for PL, C-mount, B4 etc S16 lenses, I'd agree that the sensor and mount are right. Pairing a ~S16 sensor with full-frame EF and Nikon lens mounts seems... weird.

dvbrother
04-18-2012, 09:30 PM
I'm going to buy the BMD camera, but also keep my GH2.

But here are some things nobody in this thread has mentioned as mind-blowing advantages of the BMD, especially for less than $3000:

1. Records direct to Apple Pro Res or Avid DNxD. So, if you happen to do a gig where you have to hand over footage to a professional post house, you don't feel embarrassed to give them crappy AVCHD on an SD card. You give them footage in their NLE's codec.

2. Or you can shoot 2.5k RAW!!! Insane! I'm drooling!

3. HD-SDI and Thunderbolt outputs! And it's 10-bit 4:2:2!

4. Balanced audio inputs and a headphone jack! No more syncing. No more Pluraleyes!

5. $1600 in freee software! Da Vinci Resolve and UltraScopes. Subtract that from the $2895 and you get a 2.5k RAW camera for $1295!

To name but a few. Also, even though I'm a bit bummed by the sensor size, I actually try to see the glass as half-full. A Tokina 11-16 or 12-24 is plenty wide. If I need insane wide, that's what the GH2 and 7-14mm will be for. Also, the slightly deeper DOF compared to APS-C and m 4/3 might actually make it a touch easier to focus while still having a cinematic look.
An advantage to the EF mount nobody has mentioned is this: All those Canon friends you have? The ones with the 5Ds and 7Ds? Now you can hit them up for their lenses. "Hey man, can I borrow your 16 to 35 this weekend? Cool." Not to mention the abundance of great Canon glass you can rent pretty cheap online. If you have an important gig on the horizon, rent great glass and build it into your bid/budget.

My dad just bought several Canon L lenses for his old Canon 40D. Guess what lenses I will be borrowing once I get my BMD? Hee hee.

Good times!

Kholi
04-18-2012, 09:40 PM
It was all mentioned a good thirty to forty times fo reach point in the 120page thread. Haha.

I think EVERYONE realizes it now. =P But, as we saidthere, all good and sound points.

dvbrother
04-18-2012, 10:29 PM
It was all mentioned a good thirty to forty times fo reach point in the 120page thread. Haha.

I think EVERYONE realizes it now. =P But, as we saidthere, all good and sound points.

yeah, I guess I should assume that everyone on this thread has read that mondo thread about the camera. I suppose that's why it was absent here because it was obvious. I thought it was worth mentioning though since the conversation here starting drifting towards "what do I get for $3000 that I can't get with my GH2". Hence my post. Anyway. :-)
I'm still reeling about the world we live in. Imagine what will come out next year. Back when the DVX100 came out, we used to say "OK, now there's no more excuses not to shoot your film." People used to whine about no 24p and no 16:9 and no Cine-like gamma. The DVX provided all that. Well now in the days of affordable 2.5k RAW for less than what the DVX100 used to sell for, there REALLY is no excuse not to just buy a camera and make a movie.

mcbob
04-18-2012, 10:37 PM
there REALLY is no excuse not to just buy a camera and make a movie.

Aside maybe from not having actors, funding, a script, or inclination. Those are still pretty good excuses.

dvbrother
04-18-2012, 11:29 PM
Aside maybe from not having actors, funding, a script, or inclination. Those are still pretty good excuses.

Not having any funding is no excuse. Filmmakers who make it work on a shoestring because of their passion and obsession for films tend to make good movies by sheer willpower.
But yeah, you're right. People will always find excuses for not taking a creative risk.

HansSteinert
04-19-2012, 12:50 AM
I don't see why you would ever sell your GH2. It's an excellent B camera.

PaPa
04-19-2012, 03:16 AM
I'm going to hold out for now. Definitely do not want to go any smaller on the sensor size than the current GH2. I'm sure there is a lot more to come over the next little while.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-19-2012, 06:27 AM
Why? When in the past has S16 ever been a problem? From what I've seen thus far, the sensor size is a complete non-issue.

I'm not sure if I can use a camera that has 20 mm as the normal lens. For wide angle I'd need a 10 mm lens and they are not that great lenses. S16 was never extremely good, but because it is film people were less conditioned to point this out and low resolution was more forgiving for the lenses.

I support this concept and want to have another production camera come outside of Japan, so I hope BMD already has something for S35 size in the works.

mcbob
04-19-2012, 06:48 AM
I've said it a bunch, the camera with that sensor would have made a lot more sense with a µ43 mount, able to use S16 glass.

HVXguy
04-19-2012, 07:25 AM
I'm going to hold out for now. Definitely do not want to go any smaller on the sensor size than the current GH2. I'm sure there is a lot more to come over the next little while.

You can count on that.....
I wonder if Panasonic is taking notice? Or even cares?
Stop me if I am wrong - but don't you think a multi-billion dollar company
who has rolled out thousands of video camera models over the years
could come up with a camera that would blow the Black Magic out of the water?
Hmmmmm, I really thought Panasonic would take some notes when RED came out.
What is that expression? Can't see the forest for the RAW workflow?

HVXguy
04-19-2012, 07:27 AM
I've said it a bunch, the camera with that sensor would have made a lot more sense with a 43 mount, able to use S16 glass.

If Black Magic is smart - they are taking notes.
If they are like Panasonic - then what you see is what you will get.

wgzn
04-19-2012, 07:37 AM
I'm not sure if I can use a camera that has 20 mm as the normal lens. For wide angle I'd need a 10 mm lens and they are not that great lenses
i guess thats my real complaint. with an m4/3 sensor wont there be the crop factor? thus every lens is effectively nearly 2x what it really is?

mcbob
04-19-2012, 08:30 AM
I think the math was about 2.3x. It would make sense with Nikon 1 lenses or with all those C-mount lenses that just BARELY vignette on m43.

With Canon EF lenses... well, it doesn't make sense.

HotConductor
04-19-2012, 08:48 AM
Blackmagic makes excellent equipment (I use their Intensity Pro cards for live broadcasting and old format archival for clients), but this camera is incredibly niche. I love my GH2 workflow, especially with the various hacks. I also don't want to loose autofocus.

The one thing I haven't heard a ton of discussion on is skew... That is my ONLY gripe about the GH2. If this camera were to eliminate/dramatically reduce skew, then maybe I'd consider it. My dream camera is a GH2/AC160 hybrid... M43rds interchangeable lenses, one brand new one with servo zoom built in on the side (not the front like the X series), little/no skew, pro xlr audio, 1080/48fps WITH audio and a time lapse feature built in... Thats it. I really don't understand why that seems to be an impossibility. The best of both worlds... run n gun and DOF/M43rds.

Blackmagic's camera really does look nice. The test footage looks good, but I am not a fan of the form factor. We've gone from video cameras to DSLRs to a cigarette box with a lens attached to it. Visually looks like more of a toy than the GH2. HATE the form factor, but I suppose it works!

Kholi
04-19-2012, 09:17 AM
It's larger and heavier than the GH2. I believe it may be on the way to epic size. If not at least 1DC. Just for refernce.

Thomas Smet
04-19-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm not sure if I can use a camera that has 20 mm as the normal lens. For wide angle I'd need a 10 mm lens and they are not that great lenses. S16 was never extremely good, but because it is film people were less conditioned to point this out and low resolution was more forgiving for the lenses.

I support this concept and want to have another production camera come outside of Japan, so I hope BMD already has something for S35 size in the works.

If you are used to the FOV shooting with a 20mm on Panasonic then on the BM it will act like a 24mm in terms of FOV. There is about a 1.2x difference between the GH2 sensor and the BM sensor. It is much larger then S16. if you still want the FOV of the 20mm then you would want around a 17mm on the BM camera. So really only a slight shift for us GH1/2 users.

HotConductor
04-19-2012, 09:58 AM
It's larger and heavier than the GH2. I believe it may be on the way to epic size. If not at least 1DC. Just for refernce.

I looked at the photos again... NOW I see it. I forget how massive those lenses are!

righteous.
04-19-2012, 10:25 AM
About the mount...

It should go without saying that they picked EF for a reason: to capitalize on the DSLR market using Canon glass, which is a majority of us. Yes, this is poor choice strictly in terms of camera design, but note that they are well aware of the demand for a m4/3 mount. The sales of the EF mount will likely put the necessary cash in their pocket to release other mounts, so really it's a matter of biding your time. If there's anything I've learned when it comes to new and expensive technologies, it's to never buy the first batch.

Kholi
04-19-2012, 10:58 AM
I looked at the photos again... NOW I see it. I forget how massive those lenses are!

It is very deceiving. I understand. Haha.
The initial reaction is well warranted, just want to try and help by adding perspective for those interested.

Thomas is also right about the crop factor and lens choice. My concern is distortion but we'll see what happens.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-19-2012, 11:13 AM
i guess thats my real complaint. with an m4/3 sensor wont there be the crop factor? thus every lens is effectively nearly 2x what it really is?

Yes, and it is a bit too narrow field of view. But there has been no better alternative. It is my opinion that 24 - 25 mm sensor width (S35) is ideal for cinema production. Many cameras already have that sensor size, so I would expect BMD to have this in the cards also. They will probably generate nice revenues from the new camera, so the next iteration might well have broader field of view.

By the way, according to Kodak on-line information, 10-bit is enough to represent full logarithmic dynamic range of film. To have that compressed visually lossless like Cineform codec would greatly reduce the required recording bandwidth. So, a S35 10-bit camera using codec like Cineform vould get my vote for indie film making.

GoPro, are you reading this?

Movie_Dude_3
04-19-2012, 08:24 PM
The ability to shoot raw is nice, but there's no way I'd give up a $600 camera that shooting amazing video for a $4000 camera that only shoots 30fps.

I really like the design of the black magic though, very streamlined, plug ssdrives right into it, it's a cool camera.

Wait...it only shoots 30 fps?

electricpig
04-20-2012, 02:32 AM
By the way, according to Kodak on-line information, 10-bit is enough to represent full logarithmic dynamic range of film. To have that compressed visually lossless like Cineform codec would greatly reduce the required recording bandwidth. So, a S35 10-bit camera using codec like Cineform vould get my vote for indie film making.



The Kodak Cineon file format (basically became dpx we know today with metadata and the ability to hold an alpha channel), is 10-bit log, which held about 13 stops of exposure, and equivalent to the best film stocks. This even held some noise beyond exposure at the top and bottom of the range.
It equates to 1024 code values of captured neg.
The linear print LUT that you view it under (equivalent to projecting in a theatre) was pegged between 95 and 685 code values, but these were not hard clips and had subtle run offs into the highlight and shadows.

We were always told the 10 log was equivalent to 14-bits linear.

So working on these principles, Blackmagic are being very filmic in how they have set this camera up, and I would think the Kodak methodology is very much at the heart of this.

When I work for Kodak, they were even using Cineon (the film system that I demoed, not the file format in this case) to help design new film stocks in Rochester.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-20-2012, 06:01 AM
I see you are quite deep in the cine business.

13 bits of linear contrast video could be pretty much developed to look like any film stock. The file size will be massive and many won't have a computer that will be handling such files with ease. Hence I would prefer to select a log camera profile and record with lower bit depth and possibly compressed to a known good quality codec instead of RAW.

This option could possibly be in the BMD camera, we'll see soon enough.

electricpig
04-20-2012, 06:33 AM
I see you are quite deep in the cine business.

13 bits of linear contrast video could be pretty much developed to look like any film stock. The file size will be massive and many won't have a computer that will be handling such files with ease. Hence I would prefer to select a log camera profile and record with lower bit depth and possibly compressed to a known good quality codec instead of RAW.

This option could possibly be in the BMD camera, we'll see soon enough.

You could say that... 15 years and counting, and Digital film compositing for most of that time.
10-bit log 2k files (2048x1556) are 12.7MB a frame, 24 of the little buggers a second.
So I've had a SATA RAID for years for running these off for realtime playback.
The fact I've now got a 6G SSD in my MacBookPro and can do the same thing on the go is mind-blowing.

I'm currently doing a 5k IMAX stereo job, 53.3MB a dpx frame. Not fun as regarding interactivity.

I'd hate to see the linear equivalent file size of this.

But I do like OpenEXR more and more as a file format, 32bit float linear with clever compression.
If I take my 10-bit Log Cineon Marcie and save it as a Linear EXR it comes out at 22.6MB.
That's an image with film grain on though, so obviously won't be as compressed as a grain free image.

So with BlackMagic talking about approx 6MB a frame for their 13bit RAW DNG image off the Cinema Camera,
they're doing some clever stuff to get it so small.
And they talk about Log profiles too, so the frame could potentially be even smaller.

Seeing that beach shot that's going around, I love the velvety film look of the image.
Absolutely gorgeous, and reminds me very much of a proper Cineon Log scan from film stock.

Jaime Valles
04-20-2012, 02:21 PM
Wait...it only shoots 30 fps?
It shoots 24p, 25p and 30p.

Movie_Dude_3
04-20-2012, 06:34 PM
It shoots 24p, 25p and 30p.

Oh ok, that makes more sense. Thanks!

editguy
04-20-2012, 06:47 PM
I think it's an interesting camera, but when someone earlier in this thread said that it was a $4k camera, they weren't that far off for some of us. If you don't have Canon glass, if you need longer life batteries for location shoots, add in the SSD's and you're at or above $4000. Also, it's very Apple centric, and not all of us are Apple users. It may well be worth it, but we won't know until someone gets a production camera.

Justyn
04-20-2012, 08:54 PM
Well they came a lot closer to 3K for 3k than Red did... right? It's an interesting camera for sure. Kind of looks like a harddrive with a port on the front... They do make nice products and I bet it will work right away and not be in BETA with "issues".... let's hope. It is kind of weird to have no 60p options though.

This and the new Sony FS 700 looks very interesting.... I think a lot of camera manufacturers will be scrambling to catch this lightening

John Brawley
04-20-2012, 09:14 PM
It shoots 24p, 25p and 30p.

I've asked for 1FPS up to 30 FPS....

jb

John Brawley
04-20-2012, 09:17 PM
I've said it a bunch, the camera with that sensor would have made a lot more sense with a µ43 mount, able to use S16 glass.

The sensor is TOO BIG for Super 16 lenses.

Its almost m4/3 size.

jb

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
04-20-2012, 11:10 PM
In response to the question in the title of this thread: Me.

I'm definitely considering buying the BmD cinema camera. But I'll keep my GH2 (and GH1), too.

The only other cam I'm considering at the moment is the Nikon D800.

My guess is that it'll be Xmas 2012 at least before those of us in the US will actually be able to buy the "GH3" (or whatever it'll be called), or its possible sister/brother prosumer version (not the replacement for the AF100, but a GH3 in a prosumer package). Based on Panasonic's past performance, even if they announce the GH3 & its sis/bro by Photokina this Sept., it won't be available in the US for a least 3-4 months afterwards. Of course I hope I'm wrong, but that's what happened with both the GH1 & GH2.

I'm interested in the BmD CC because:

It'll record very good-looking video; it features 10-bit 4:2:2 ProRes HQ (DNxHD & RAW CinemaDNG are a bonus); my old manual Nikkor F lenses can be easily & inexpensively adapted to it; it costs less than $3K w/o media; it has a "big enough" sensor; it has 2 balanced audio inputs; it has a headphone jack; it has a built-in UPS (e.g.: battery) & I can adapt my AB batts to power it; and, it has HD-SDI & Thunderbolt outputs.

Though I'd much prefer it had a S35 or larger sensor, I can live with one slightly smaller than the one in the GH2. I'd prefer it featured 1080p60, too, but I can always get a GH3 (?) for that reason alone. I'd also prefer it had an HDMI output in addition to HD-SDI: In 2012, HDMI out is as close to free as it gets.

But my quibbles are just that. None of them are deal-killers. And I expect future BmD Cinema Cameras to include most/all these features, and more. Eventually.

But for this Summer and at least several months after that, the BmD CC may be just about the perfect camera for me. YMMV.

P.S.: I probably won't pre-order one. I'm inclined to wait about 30-days after the final production units are in customers' hands and the inevitable initial bugs are identified & addressed. And I think BmD will be able to match supply to demand.

Trucci
04-21-2012, 07:35 AM
So I couldn't resist and I caved in. Pre-ordered from Markertek on the 19th. While a lot of it was due to lusting for 13 stops/12-bit RAW/etc, I also didn't want to risk kicking myself in July when I change my mind and these things are backordered for half a year. While I'm not saying BlackMagic won't be able to supply the demand, I just don't want to risk being put on an indefinite waiting list like I did with the GH2. Also, I can cover all the focal lengths I need with the addition of two lens purchases, the Tokina 11-16 EF and a Nikon 24mm which I bought today for a good price. I will miss using the wide and fast 20mm pancake though. I don't plan on selling the GH2 because of its 60p and it being the only still camera I have! Haven't been this excited about a camera since the DVX-100 was announced.

Jaime Valles
04-21-2012, 03:18 PM
Well, I just caved as well. Bit the bullet and placed a pre-order with Texas Media Systems! Check out their group buy over on the BMCC section of this forum. They have a nice discount for DVXusers!

Minor
04-21-2012, 06:51 PM
I'll wait for the gh3.

kevin baggott
04-21-2012, 07:04 PM
yeah - pre-ordered one at b&h today :)

atarijedi
04-22-2012, 05:36 AM
If it had a global shutter, I would.

David W. Jones
04-22-2012, 05:56 AM
Hmmm... intriguing camera, but if you can't compose a good image with an 8bit 10 stop camera, 12bit raw and 13 stops are not going to make that much of a difference. Just saying.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
04-22-2012, 06:40 AM
Hmmm... intriguing camera, but if you can't compose a good image with an 8bit 10 stop camera, 12bit raw and 13 stops are not going to make that much of a difference. Just saying.

Which camera are you referring too? Can't be a GH2, because it records nowhere near 10 stops.

DR isn't the GH2's strong point. And it records a hefty amount of video noise, and tends to record gradient banding artifacts, too. Hack or no hack.

But I still love my GH2, warts and all: Its weaknesses aren't necessarily a significant barrier to successful filmmaking. Cheers.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
04-23-2012, 10:06 AM
I changed my mind: Just placed my pre-order for a "BMC" with TMS. Hopefully there won't be a l-o-n-g backlog. Exciting times! :-)

For info about TMS's special DVXuser/BMCuser group buy price, see:
Group Buy Blackmagic Cinema Camera from Texas Media Systems (http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?20-Group-Buy-Blackmagic-Cinema-Camera-from-Texas-Media-Systems)

Thomas Smet
04-23-2012, 10:51 AM
I keep going back and forth on if I want to move to the BM camera. I happen to really like Panasonic DSLRs and I love shooting stills as well as great video in a single package. With that said I currently use a GH1 and while it can look stellar if you use it right it does have its limitations. The reason why the BM camera may be back in the running again is because of the rumor that BM may be considering a M4/3 mount in the future. I'm not really sure what this means yet. I don't mind EF lenses and would have no problem using them since I prefer to shoot 20mm on my Gh1 but I have so much invested in M4/3 glass that it is hard to bring myself to start over again. As I said I love shooting stills but hate Canon DSLRs for video so that isn't really an option either.

The one thing that does have me excited even if BM doesn't add a direct mount is the prospect of an 3rd party adapter. We already have cheap $20.00 adapters to mount EF lenses on M4/3 cameras. It should be very easy for somebody to make the opposite. This adapter would never work on a Canon camera of course due to the sensor size but it should work perfectly on the BM camera. That has me excited once again about possible moving to the camera. Anybody see a reason why this wouldn't work? The sensor is small enough.

Barry_Green
04-23-2012, 11:07 AM
It should be very easy for somebody to make the opposite.
No, in fact quite the opposite -- it would be impossible to make an adapter to put m43 lenses on an EF camera. Well, at least without an optical element, which would degrade the image quality.

If you want an m43 mount, wait for the m43 version (if it's ever produced; they seem open to the idea, but as far as I understand it they're not going to actually do any work towards such a version until they have the existing EF model finished and shipping).

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 11:47 AM
I dunno, I feel like I need to play devil's advocate a bit here.
I'm also just not feeling the same enthusiasm that everyone else seems to. I've been holding off on commenting thus far because I wanted to see if there was perhaps something I was missing or maybe others who felt the same way I did (we appear to be an alarming minority).

The following is a rant I'd just like to get off my chest, you can choose to ignore it and I won't be insulted at all.
<BEGIN RANT>

To be fair, I really am excited to hear about this- believe me, I'm a gear head and I love being excited for new things to come out... but are we all so very unhappy with the performance of what we have currently to desire dropping it for this? Is that even a healthy perspective to have (especially for a first generation product that isn't out yet)?

Granted, I think this is a fantastic achievement and will no doubt shake up the budget film making community considering what you can get versus what you can afford. I'm very excited to see what it does for the rest of the market as well, now that there is a serious competitor in the ring who appears to be catering to what users want (rather than how much they can give before cutting into their higher end equipment profits).

But maybe I'm still missing something- I mean, aside from the occasional chroma key shot or times that I was suffering through trying to match color from multiple cameras, I've never really wished that my camera shot RAW. I've toyed with RAW footage for a sequence once- it was very cool, I'll admit, but I can't imagine needing to go through all that on a regular basis. Shooting directly to ProRes and DNxHD does not appeal to me because I'm not using Final Cut, and often not using an Apple-based editing system at all.

To be fair, I guess I'm a bad example because I'm not primarily shooting narratives these days. So aside from the occasional keyed shot, most of what I do does not benefit enough from shooting RAW to really warrant the extra hassle and resources in the workflow it requires. My clients like projects that move quickly and efficiently, and are finished within tight deadlines. That means shooting RAW is often an added expense I/they can't afford. I like that the BMC shoots other formats as well, but it sort of irks me that the whole box feels very catered to Apple users specifically.
I used to be a big Apple user, but I'm very platform agnostic these days. My main editing workstations at home and work are PCs at the moment (mostly because I needed the fastest rendering boxes money could buy), and would much prefer eSATA or USB3 to thunderbolt. Not to mention ProRes and DNxHD are both Quicktime based codecs, and don't always play nicely in PC-based editing suites.

Then there's the mount- L-series EOS lenses are awesome. One of my biggest gripes with M4/3rds is that fast native glass with IS is very lacking at the moment, so having access to the wide variety of native EOS lenses and S-glass is very cool (assuming IS will be supported?). It does seem kind of strange however, to be pairing it up with such a small sensor while forcing the EOS mounts. Not that the sensor is too small- I'm not having that argument, I'm very much aware of how capable 16mm is, and with this being a bit bigger it should be more than capable. But then why are we limited to APS-C sized lenses on the EOS mount? I love that the M4/3rds mount can support C-mount lenses and other glass, which more than makes up for the fact that the sensor is smaller than my other APS-C cameras.
So this sort of feels like a weird neither here nor there option- smaller sensor, but you still can't use lenses made for a tighter FOV. 16mm, C-mount, and even M4/3rds have glass that tend to go a bit wider to compensate for the additional crop, but aren't compatible with EF. Again, this isn't a huge problem, but it sort of makes me feel like "why did they do that?" and just sort of leaves me thinking these aren't the droids I've been waiting for.

The rest of the stuff is all silly details... I prefer buttons to touchscreens, and the design doesn't seem very inspired. These are personal things. Not that either of those would make or break how much I like a product, but it just doesn't seem to illicit the emotional response that it seems to in others. I'm sure that as the the production model gets closer to fruition, we'll also see better examples of the footage it outputs (I think the general consensus of the example we've seen were mostly that it was soft, but had potential).

But all that leads me to my initial impression- the samples didn't make me say "wow", the design doesn't make me say "wow", the proposed features DO, however the actual specs don't (if that makes sense). Yet, folks are going gaga over the proposed spec sheet alone.

I do like this concept and perhaps version 2 will wow me enough to share the overwhelming enthusiasm. But right now, I see this as an excellent proof of concept, and I can't wait to see what comes after it!
A mantra often repeated around here is that "the best tools for the job are the ones you already have". If I were starting over as a new film maker, I would probably recommend this camera. But as someone who is relatively happy with their tools, my response to the title of this thread would have to be:
Probably not.
</END RANT>

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
04-23-2012, 12:44 PM
@M. Gilden

I hear you. For many folks the BMC won't be a good match. It's great that there are now so many good camera choices out there. The BMC is just the most recent example. And of course, there'll always be more cams in future.

Myself I plan to primarily use the BMC to shoot 10-bit 1080p ProRes 422 HQ, and switch between its "Film" (log) & "Video" (Rec. 709) gamma modes depending on the project. I may occasionally use the cam's DNxHD or 12-bit RAW 2.5K mode as projects warrant it.

I really like the cam's ability to record with very high quality compressed codecs (ProRes & DNxHD). Although these 10-bit 4:2:2 codecs have obvious benefits for things like pulling keys & CC, I especially like that they should record smooth gradients and handle motion with essentially no visible artifacts. As this is the GH2 forum, we know what a bugaboo gradients & motion artifacts can be, and to what lengths some of us go via hacks, etc. in an attempt to minimize them ...

I use FCP v7.2, so shooting ProRes 422 HQ means I don't have to upgrade to FCPX, or switch to a completely different NLE, or buy expensive disk arrays, etc.

My understanding is that DnxHD is well-supported on Windows-based NLEs, too, but I haven't researched that thoroughly yet.

Although it's great that BmD includes Resolve & UltraScope with the BMC, I probably won't use either much initially. My MacBook Pro 17" is recent-vintage, but not new enough to include a T-Bolt port. I'll probably get a (relatively inexpensive) Express34-to-eSATA adapter to attach a SSD dock.

Thomas Smet
04-23-2012, 12:52 PM
No, in fact quite the opposite -- it would be impossible to make an adapter to put m43 lenses on an EF camera. Well, at least without an optical element, which would degrade the image quality.

If you want an m43 mount, wait for the m43 version (if it's ever produced; they seem open to the idea, but as far as I understand it they're not going to actually do any work towards such a version until they have the existing EF model finished and shipping).

Thanks Barry I wasn't aware it would not work. I figured since most adapters are hollow tubes it would work either direction. I guess I'm back to sticking with my GH1 for now or upgrading to the GH2.

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 05:01 PM
@M. Gilden

I hear you. For many folks the BMC won't be a good match. It's great that there are now so many good camera choices out there. The BMC is just the most recent example. And of course, there'll always be more cams in future.

Agreed, and if they all need to compete with this kind of pricing per feature set, very exciting times are ahead indeed.


My understanding is that DnxHD is well-supported on Windows-based NLEs, too, but I haven't researched that thoroughly yet.


It technically should be, however I have some bad experiences with it. Adobe After Effects started randomly spitting out black frames here and there when working with DNxHD footage. I thought there was something wrong with this workstation, but then it started happening on a new one as well. Other systems here seemed to work fine with it, so its rather hit-or-miss. Either way, removing it from the system and avoiding quicktime in general has really kept my workflow smooth and error free. I currently mostly use AVCHD and Cineform as an intermediate, and have been very happy with it. IMHO, Quicktime really is best left on Apple based systems.

Trucci
04-23-2012, 05:59 PM
@M. Gilden

I've shared mostly the same concerns as you, and like Peter, I probably won't shoot RAW all that often and stick to DNxHD or ProRes most of the time. I wasn't nearly as excited about its RAW capabilities as I was with its dynamic range. If it were RAW and only shot 9 stops, I would probably be $3k richer in July. It's really the 13 stops that's exciting to me.

When the DVX-100 came out, one of the hurdles for digital to be more like film was overcome with its 24p feature at a $3k price point. It was such a big deal that it completely changed the indie film community. The other hurdles were resolution, depth of field/bigger sensor, latitude, compression, overcranking, and interchangeable lenses. People made workarounds like mini35 adapters, Andromeda for latitude, etc. As time went on, each of these hurdles were overcome with some compromises. Red came in and overcame nearly everything in one swoop, but of course wasn't remotely close to a $3k price point. Even the then promised $3k Scarlet had too small of a sensor for many people. When the 5dmk2 came out, interchangeable lenses with a large sensor size/shallow DOF at HD resolution (well, sort of) was attained at sub-$3k and sub-$1k with the GH1 (with 60p to boot). At this point, we had nearly everything a filmmaker could want at under $3k, except for the latitude of film. Most of us thought that 13+ stops was reserved only for the big guns (Alexa, Epic, F3 with S-Log etc.). I mean after all, the camera that was used to shoot the president's official portrait (5dmk2) stops just short of 12 stops in RAW mode. Then BMD comes along and sideswipes the sub-$3k film market with 13-stops RAW/ProRes/DNxHD and says "not good enough? Here, have a copy of Resolve too then".

So yeah, I'm pretty stoked, but I need to get back to work so I can pay for this thing lol.

Steve Harryman
04-23-2012, 06:53 PM
Still having a difficult time with the battery being built in. Does this bother anyone else? Since I film wildlife---this puts a damper on this camera for now.

Thomas Smet
04-23-2012, 07:01 PM
Still having a difficult time with the battery being built in. Does this bother anyone else? Since I film wildlife---this puts a damper on this camera for now.

Don't even think of the battery. It is really there as a bonus or backup power supply. You will still use external batteries like you would with most professional cameras. On our Red we use V mount batteries all the time. With the BM camera you will still want to use some kind of external battery system. Now this doesn't have to mean an expensive top of the line battery system. The BM camera a very wide range of voltage values so many different systems can be adapter for the camera.

The internal battery is really just a bonus so you can swap batteries without stopping the camera. For wildlife this should be perfect.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:03 PM
Still having a difficult time with the battery being built in. Does this bother anyone else? Since I film wildlife---this puts a damper on this camera for now.

Wouldn't you carry batteries with you for any other camera? Same situation, basically. The batteries you plug into the camera charge the internal battery, you never lose power, it's continuous.

We work the same way with the Bebob Battery Plate on RED. No downtime unless someone forgets to change the battery before the bebob's internal battery dies.

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 07:04 PM
@M. Gilden

I've shared mostly the same concerns as you, and like Peter, I probably won't shoot RAW all that often and stick to DNxHD or ProRes most of the time. I wasn't nearly as excited about its RAW capabilities as I was with its dynamic range. If it were RAW and only shot 9 stops, I would probably be $3k richer in July. It's really the 13 stops that's exciting to me.

When the DVX-100 came out, one of the hurdles for digital to be more like film was overcome with its 24p feature at a $3k price point. It was such a big deal that it completely changed the indie film community. The other hurdles were resolution, depth of field/bigger sensor, latitude, compression, overcranking, and interchangeable lenses. People made workarounds like mini35 adapters, Andromeda for latitude, etc. As time went on, each of these hurdles were overcome with some compromises. Red came in and overcame nearly everything in one swoop, but of course wasn't remotely close to a $3k price point. Even the then promised $3k Scarlet had too small of a sensor for many people. When the 5dmk2 came out, interchangeable lenses with a large sensor size/shallow DOF at HD resolution (well, sort of) was attained at sub-$3k and sub-$1k with the GH1 (with 60p to boot). At this point, we had nearly everything a filmmaker could want at under $3k, except for the latitude of film. Most of us thought that 13+ stops was reserved only for the big guns (Alexa, Epic, F3 with S-Log etc.). I mean after all, the camera that was used to shoot the president's official portrait (5dmk2) stops just short of 12 stops in RAW mode. Then BMD comes along and sideswipes the sub-$3k film market with 13-stops RAW/ProRes/DNxHD and says "not good enough? Here, have a copy of Resolve too then".

So yeah, I'm pretty stoked, but I need to get back to work so I can pay for this thing lol.
Yeah, I hear that Trucci. And that is definitely something to be excited about. But not everyone has the same priorities, and personally I don't think the dynamic range has been our biggest limitation.

I've shot footage for network TV, covered live events and documentaries, and to me the biggest hurdles with DSLRs have been their rolling shutter, relatively weak codec, ergonomics and lack of quality audio (in that order). I still keep around a small chip camcorder for those times my DSLR proves inadequate to work with, and I'm longing for the day there will be an affordable model that handles the job of both equally well.

I've seen rumors that perhaps the chip inside the BMC is capable of global shutter (with the right hardware to support it, that is), but it seems like BMC is not aiming to include that kind of circuitry at this price point. The ergonomics for documentary work seem worse than current DSLRs models, and the 5DmIII and GH2 hacks seem to have really pushed up the codec to reveal far more detail than much more expensive cameras (especially more than what we've seen so far from the admittedly pre-release model BMC). The audio doesn't seem to be anything all that exciting on any of these cameras, but I think most of us have just learned to deal with that by now. I'm sure internal audio will be OK, and anything super serious will have a sound guy anyway.

But you'll have to excuse me if I still feel like back when the DVX100 was the *IT* camera for $3k, it felt like we were being offered the world on a silver platter. It packed a lot more to a professional right out of the box. The BMC feels like we're still compromising certain things to help with other things that cater to a specific demographic of users (narrative film makers who work with Apple editing systems and require more dynamic range).

Don't get me wrong, I think this will prove to be a very important camera to the future of budget cinematography, but I'm still pretty critical of the overwhelming enthusiasm. I'll reserve judgement until they are out in the field.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:06 PM
Disagree about detail in GH2 footage and detail in the pre-release BMC.

It's clearly outpacing GH2, just without the aliasing to make it look sharper.

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 07:15 PM
Disagree about detail in GH2 footage and detail in the pre-release BMC.

It's clearly outpacing GH2, just without the aliasing to make it look sharper.

Clearly? To you, perhaps. Wasn't so clear to me. But I don't think we have enough to judge by yet.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:20 PM
Clearly? To you, perhaps. Wasn't so clear to me. But I don't think we have enough to judge by yet.

You're right, to me. Apologies. I have plenty enough to judge by, personally. If that's what compressed Vimeo footage looks like with poor glass, then it's definitely outdone GH2. again, just without the aliasing.

thabo
04-23-2012, 07:35 PM
As a new owner of a hacked GH2 (past two months ) and as someone who always seems to be shooting outdoors in bright sunshine I think this camera will interest me. Dealing with transcoding is a pain and the dynamic range of this camera looks fantastic. Those two things alone may turn me into a believer but I'm learning why some of us really dislike the DSLR video craze as I'm use to somewhat better ergonomic and real sound on my HMC40 but it's low light sucks and no interchangeable lenses -!

Rip apart the GH2 and fashion it into a nice ergonomic box with a sound recorder and aja recorder and we've got the perfect camera.

Sure I could have all of than on a FS700 or F3 but those are not in my budget.

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 07:39 PM
You're right, to me. Apologies. I have plenty enough to judge by, personally. If that's what compressed Vimeo footage looks like with poor glass, then it's definitely outdone GH2. again, just without the aliasing.

Really? You have plenty of what, BMC footage (anything you're hiding from us?? ha!)?
I mean, I'll admit that I've only worked with RED RAW on a rare occasion, but I recall the image being plenty sharp, even without aliasing or artificial sharpening. Looked better than what I'm seeing now, but this is hardly a scientific conclusion. All I know is that this footage didn't wow me as much as I wanted it to. But, granted, it was a single test on a pre-production camera, so I really don't have any strong opinions yet.

Looking forward to seeing what a finished model is capable of!

M. Gilden
04-23-2012, 07:42 PM
As a new owner of a hacked GH2 (past two months ) and as someone who always seems to be shooting outdoors in bright sunshine I think this camera will interest me. Dealing with transcoding is a pain and the dynamic range of this camera looks fantastic. Those two things alone may turn me into a believer but I'm learning why some of us really dislike the DSLR video craze as I'm use to somewhat better ergonomic and real sound on my HMC40 but it's low light sucks and no interchangeable lenses -!

Rip apart the GH2 and fashion it into a nice ergonomic box with a sound recorder and aja recorder and we've got the perfect camera.

Sure I could have all of than on a FS700 or F3 but those are not in my budget.

Would love to see something like this designed to fit a GH2:
http://techcitement.com/hardware/viztools-wants-to-turn-your-dslr-into-a-camcorder/#.T5YSdatYvE0

But Panasonic is already starting to come out with servo zoom lenses (nothing to get excited about yet, but potential is there). A GH3 with global shutter and decent servo zoom X lenses would win me over in a heartbeat.

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 07:44 PM
Disagree about detail in GH2 footage and detail in the pre-release BMC.

It's clearly outpacing GH2, just without the aliasing to make it look sharper.


I really don't want to go into the math here and you're a really great guy kholi, but it seems pretty apparent the gh2 is out resolving this camera. There's just something about the gh2, spatial resolution wise. I shot with an ex1 for years, shoot with an f3 at work. I picked up a gh2 last month and even after turning sharpening all the way down in camera, I still cannot get over the uncomfortable fact it is quite clearly resolving more information, and looking smoother at the same time, than a $7k 3 chip camera that I have been so close to for so long. On top of that, BM, like red, is providing the count of all the total photosites on their sensor. That is before debayer. As great as this camera is and the things it's going to do to this market, due to simple math it cannot resolve anywhere near 2k of information. People automatically associate reds "5k" and BM's "2.5k" numbers with the resolution of the finished, debayered film, but these are bayer pattern cameras, and that is not how it works. Have you seen 4k or 5k red footage at 100% zoom? Not much to say about it, other than there's plenty of detail once you use Sinc or Lanczos and scale it down to 2k/1080. It's pretty apparent on wide shots in regards to the BM. I'm not talking about vimeo footage, I'm talking about the full res stills provided. But blackmagic went with the sensor they could source, and it should make a great camera. On top of that, dynamic range is far, far more important than resolution, and this camera is worlds ahead of the gh2 in that area


And as for the batteries - Just pick up some bricks like everyone else! then remind yourself BM even nicely included a little failsafe backup battery inside the thing! It's like wizardry!

Of course I am all ears and all eyes to any first hand experience, or any other full resolution frames I may have missed around the web!

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:46 PM
Hey, like they say, I pixel peep. And, I'm probably one of the biggest resolution advocates on the boards. I said the MKIII videos posted were sharpened, was crazy for saying that... until people got their cameras and needed sharpening to tutorials.

If it weren't resolving GH2 or better, I would be pretty vocal about it. There are over a handful of key shots throughout each of the videos that shows, despite the extra dose of vimeo compression (six minute videos) as much as--or again to me, greater amounts of detail than the GH2's netting. Just without the added benefit/disadvantage of aliasing.

Whichever way people want to look at it.

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 07:51 PM
Well, you're one of the (very) few people on this board I trust in regards to imaging, so maybe I'm missing something. I'll keep my eyes out for any more frames posted around the net.

Also, you mention aliasing in the gh2. I've only had mine for about a month now, but with sharpening turned all the way down in camera and running driftwoods Sedna matrices..I cannot seem to find any? Maybe I need to shoot with it more. Going to use it mixed with a bit of f3 for the dvxfest that just started, should be exciting.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:56 PM
I really don't want to go into the math here and you're a really great guy kholi, but it seems pretty apparent the gh2 is out resolving this camera. There's just something about the gh2, spatial resolution wise. I shot with an ex1 for years, shoot with an f3 at work. I picked up a gh2 last month and even after turning sharpening all the way down in camera, I still cannot get over the uncomfortable fact it is quite clearly resolving more information, and looking smoother at the same time, than a $7k 3 chip camera that I have been so close to for so long.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

But, I'm not talking about sharpness. I'm talking about actual resolution.

Even still, you can't turn sharpening all the way off or down. -2 still has sharpening, it isn't off, it's just at it's lowest point per given film mode. Check standard versus Smooth, let me know how -2 sharpening there looks versus -2 sharpening on Standard. Only takes shooting something and a blow up to see how the "appearance" of aliasing is increased due to sharpness.



I'm not talking about On top of that, BM, like red, is providing the count of all the total photosites on their sensor. That is before debayer. As great as this camera is and the things it's going to do to this market, due to simple math it cannot resolve anywhere near 2k of information. People automatically associate reds "5k" and BM's "2.5k" numbers with the resolution of the finished, debayered film, but these are bayer pattern cameras, and that is not how it works. Have you seen 4k or 5k red footage at 100% zoom?

I shoot RED ritually. Nothing new. I know the math, know the numbers. We're not talking about 2.5K, we're talking about final delivery of a 1080/2K product, minus aliasing (depending on how you scale in post). That's the entire point of shooting 4K~4.5K, for a 2K master. Or, 5K, for a 4K(ish master).




Not much to say about it, other than there's plenty of detail once you use Sinc or Lanczos and scale it down to 2k/1080.

Of course, that's what it's made for.


It's pretty apparent on wide shots in regards to the BM. I'm not talking about vimeo footage, I'm talking about the full res stills provided.

Yeah, different eyes, becaue what I saw was detail with the lack of aliasing coming from a sub par zoom.


But blackmagic went with the sensor they could source, and it should make a great camera. On top of that, dynamic range is far, far more important than resolution, and this camera is worlds ahead of the gh2 in that area

We can always revisit it when charts, tests, etc hit. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. It's clear that I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing, and vice versa, so the only thing that will tell are charts.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 07:58 PM
Also, you mention aliasing in the gh2. I've only had mine for about a month now, but with sharpening turned all the way down in camera and running driftwoods Sedna matrices..I cannot seem to find any? Maybe I need to shoot with it more. Going to use it mixed with a bit of f3 for the dvxfest that just started, should be exciting.

It's everywhere when you actually know how to spot it. The sharper the glass, the worse it becomes. It's not as bad as Canon cams (pre-MKIII) but it's there.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:01 PM
And I am keeping my GH2, because it's still out of its price league by miles. Despite the aliasing, it still looks great to me and will be a good camera to have around for 60P (since the Magic Cam lacks such) and other things.

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 08:01 PM
Well, I stare at blown up, scaled up, scaled down and all around footage in a Scratch suite every day, so I'd say I'm pretty familiar with how to differentiate actual spatial information from aliasing, sharpening, and compression artifacts. I just really haven't seen any BM framegrabs that have shown me what I'm used to. I would blame it on the glass, but he would have to be using some pretty old canon glass if it's impeding on 1000 lines

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Well, I stare at blown up, scaled up, scaled down and all around footage in a Scratch suite every day, so I'd say I'm pretty familiar with how to differentiate actual spatial information from aliasing, sharpening, and compression artifacts. I just really haven't seen any BM framegrabs that have shown me what I'm used to. I would blame it on the glass, but he would have to be using some pretty old canon glass if it's impeding on 1000 lines

For sure. Try looking at a blown up GH2 Hack image if you haven't, in that case, and let me know. You should be able to spot it in a heartbeat.

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Also, what are some good subjects to try and bring out aliasing on the gh2? I don't have the sharpest glass in the world for it, but I really just have no seen any yet.

Edit: just saw your most recent post. I have definitely come across aliasing in the stock firmware and the EOSHD unified, but there's something about the Sedna A matrices that doesn't exactly smooth is out, but seems to alter the way the pixel binning is coming up with a final image. I seriously recommend it if you haven't given it a try

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:06 PM
Also, what are some good subjects to try and bring out aliasing on the gh2? I don't have the sharpest glass in the world for it, but I really just have no seen any yet.

F4, medium shots with a lot of hair (especially black/dark hair), some cases power lines, bricks from a distance, semi-tight patterns in clothes, edges of vehicles or similar objects, patterns in wood... definitely more that I've encountered but can't remember. Hair is a big one, and it was when I realize that (yet again) Barry was right.

Shooting B-Cam on a hair commercial showed aliasing was alive and well in the GH2. Switching to ETC mode (of course) got rid of it.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:11 PM
Edit: just saw your most recent post. I have definitely come across aliasing in the stock firmware and the EOSHD unified, but there's something about the Sedna A matrices that doesn't exactly smooth is out, but seems to alter the way the pixel binning is coming up with a final image. I seriously recommend it if you haven't given it a try

You know... I can't believe I'm saying this, but the hacks have gotten so ... like... well I've gone from Quantum to the Sednas and I can't even tell a difference in anything. The lowlight hacks, patches, all that stuff, didn't see anything but macroblocking when messing withthe footage.

Quantum X was my limit, and unless he suddenly springs 4:2:2 from the camera, I'm done with the patches.

I also can't believe I'm about to say this... but, did you shoot any definitive tests between Sedna, stock, and say Quantum? A chart (shudder...) ugh..

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 08:28 PM
Hehe. I'm definitely done with the patches as well, I shot stock, then eoshd unified, then sedna A. It's as good as it's going to get for me. I could definitely tell a difference in banding over 90~IRE with eos, I would go to grab a key on the sky for a secondary grade and the matte would just show lines and blocks like I was playing checkers. Problem disappeared with sedna. I hate to say it but...there's a whole lot of hacks being pushed around....by people that aren't well, let's say versed in compression technology...there's a lot more to a compression algorithm than the bitrate of its output, Driftwood is the only man I've seen with matrices that make sense for a given target bitrate.

Haven't shot any charts. Lowlight patches!? The only way I've seen patches effect lowlight capability, is it's encoding the noise more accurately and retaining more detail, giving Neat Video more information to work with :)

Keep in mind I've had this camera literally 3 weeks, so I'm sure I'll run into these issues eventually

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Hehe. I'm definitely done with the patches as well, I shot stock, then eoshd unified, then sedna A. It's as good as it's going to get for me.

Same. I may try Sedna again just off of your recommendation, to see if I can pixel peep anything different but my first time it was a definite no go for me. Especially when I walked outside at night to see the change between the two.


I could definitely tell a difference in banding over 90~IRE with eos, I would go to grab a key on the sky for a secondary grade and the matte would just show lines and blocks like I was playing checkers.

Exactly what I saw in two of the driftwood patches. Can't remember the names, but they were recent ones. Nope! took 'em off.



Haven't shot any charts. Lowlight patches!? The only way I've seen patches effect lowlight capability, is it's encoding the noise more accurately and retaining more detail, giving Neat Video more information to work with :)

One thing's for sure, GH2 footage is great with denoise if you grab the right mix for each scene. Finally, FINALLY found the settings for denoiser, looks a lot better for lowlight yet sadly some of the finest details get lost in the greatest compression. oh well. xD




Keep in mind I've had this camera literally 3 weeks, so I'm sure I'll run into these issues eventually

Let me know what you find. If you're working on Scratch and you're used to it, you're bound to spot something that I haven't.

I'll also take a look at Sedna again. Thanks mmaaannnnn

Kholi
04-23-2012, 08:43 PM
Oh! about the glass thing:

What I'm referring to is how the center performance of a zoom or any lens may or may not lack. Some glass has great center performance and poor edge, some the opposite (as you know of course). What it looked like to me, having been shooting GH2 and then GH2 ETC mode, was the glass' center performance actually not being very great. If you compound that with ND (although I don't think John was using any) and especially a fader, you're going to see a soft image.

Fader + Sigma 20/1.8@2~4 + Gh2 = soft.

You need to to do some sharpening to reduce the appearance abberation going on, pretty much adding (I think this is the right way to put it) micro-contrast back into the image? Someone needs to check my usage, please.

I'm not a fan of sharpening in post. Not at all, because it tends to exaggerate aliasing, creates halos around edges, so on and so forth. But, I've had success sharpening footage from the Sigma 20/1.8 to a degree where I am finally okay with sharpening for certain cases. This camera shouldn't see any aliasing coming from 2.5K > 2k/1080...so... It's a good thing that Resolve has sharpening tools, because I imagine for once I'll actually be using those...

Ugh...

Aki_Hartikainen
04-23-2012, 09:03 PM
Plenty of aliasing in the 4k images of GH cameras as well. Below 200% crops from a 4k RAW image:

http://www.fourseasonshd.com/blueLightAliasing1.png

http://www.fourseasonshd.com/blueLightAliasing2.png

First version is how the image loads in Silkypix RAW processor with default settings. The settings for sharpness read "Natural" (I had dialed down the sharpness in camera). The lower version is with two sharpness switches turned to least amount in Silkypix program.

That can not be done for video, so it is assumed the "Natural" settings prevail for video. Thus you have the top version sharpening for video images always on by default in GH cameras. Certain lens and filter conditions make the aliasing more visible.

Needless to mention you could make a nice 2k or HD scaled down version from the lower image but not nearly as nice from the top image. And the top image is what we have for video by default.

Kholi
04-23-2012, 09:43 PM
Here's a page that illustrates what I may not be putting into words [properly]:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/article.php?l=en&article=32

It's the lens John shot with and two others, similar, at various focal lengths, showing center crops.

Now, how great of an effect it will have is to be seen, but again, I've experienced it on the GH2 and now that I think about it, shooting high speed with SLR glass on epic/red.

I suppose this is me putting in another vote for M4/3 glass, which will be more closely designed for the application.


Edit: here's a more drastic comparison between the Tokina 11-16/2.8 and the Nikon 12-24/2.8

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tokina/images/11-16mm/vs-12-24mm/sharpness/tok-12-4-center-300_3592.jpghttp://www.kenrockwell.com/tokina/images/11-16mm/vs-12-24mm/sharpness/nik-12-4-center-300_3576.jpg

Aki_Hartikainen
04-23-2012, 10:16 PM
It's the lens that makes it apparent, but the aliasing is caused by very deep level sharpening in-camera that possibly can not be turned off from the camera settings.

The best lenses are superior to many bundled lenses, so they built these sharpening schemes in the cameras. Possibly controlled by the "shoot w/o lens" switch in the camera menu. Using a decent lens makes the aliasing by sharpening more apparent. I'm thinking that recording on external harddrive from HDMI might be the solution. Then bring the image sequence to Silkypix and turn any sharpening off to have the most organic source to work with. If that is allowed for compressed images, I have not tried yet.

Fohdeesha
04-23-2012, 10:20 PM
I'm thinking that recording on external harddrive from HDMI might be the solution.

not with the gh2, nope.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/56317#Comment_56317

the hdmi out on a gh2 is absolutely useless for anything other than pulling focus

Kholi
04-23-2012, 10:21 PM
My bad, Aki-- I was referring to why the images from the Magic Cam may have appeared soft or lacking detail. You're right about the aliasing in the GH2, it's just hard to spot so everyone assumes it's not there.

I didn't really start seeing it until around February, m'self.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-23-2012, 10:29 PM
My bad, Aki-- I was referring to why the images from the Magic Cam may have appeared soft or lacking detail. You're right about the aliasing in the GH2, it's just hard to spot so everyone assumes it's not there.

I didn't really start seeing it until around February, m'self.

Like I said, you need a sharp lens to begin to see aliasing. The sharper it gets, the more it becomes a problem. This allows the camera makers to save on the lens department, which they do to rediculous amount these days. Could not do that in the slide era.

Quite possibly you install a modern Pana-Leica, the sharpening is turned off.

Aki_Hartikainen
04-23-2012, 10:34 PM
not with the gh2, nope.

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/comment/56317#Comment_56317

the hdmi out on a gh2 is absolutely useless for anything other than pulling focus

I'm still hoping they would fix that with a firmware update. Why the m4/3 lenses seem ideal for these cameras is partly caused by controlling the in-camera sharpening. This can not be done for non-m4/3 lens, so a sharp lens is stuck with unneeded sharpening.

Fohdeesha
04-24-2012, 01:49 AM
I'll also take a look at Sedna again. Thanks mmaaannnnn

No problem dude! Like I said it's been working great for me. You mentioned getting the banding issue with other driftwood patches - Were one of them "Mysteron"? I tried that one as well for a single day, and the banding problem returned horribly. Thankfully gone with Sedna q20

Kholi
04-24-2012, 07:34 PM
No problem dude! Like I said it's been working great for me. You mentioned getting the banding issue with other driftwood patches - Were one of them "Mysteron"? I tried that one as well for a single day, and the banding problem returned horribly. Thankfully gone with Sedna q20

Didn't see you had responded to this. I think it was Mysteron and the "lowlight" patch, which was terrible. Gonna see about Sedna tomorrow if I can get over this allergy storm.

Did you manage to locate the pretty aliasing in the footage yet? xD