Red Dragon 6K for $6000 upgrade & Red Brand Loyalty

[J Bellari]

It's like Christmas Day for many Red Owners.

6K for $6000 upgrade for Epic with Scarlet TBD
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77169-Dragon


upgrade a Bomb EVF to OLED for $1200
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77178-OLED-BOMB-EVF-IN-STOCK

will be showing Red 4K 3D Laser Projector, RedRay Player, Demo film at NAB by Ridley Scott's son...


If this is what brand loyalty means in the future for others to emulate, sign me up!


Do you know of any other Pro Video manufacturer so generous to their loyal customers?

[Jason Ramsey]

EDIT: incorrect info.

[Kevin Marshall]

Dragon Sensor upgrade starts tomorrow for EPIC-M customers. and is Free for EPIC-M customers as well.

Think you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. The Epic-M upgrade starting tomorrow is to bring the Epic-Ms up to spec with the -Xs (new heatsink, new fan, new mounting points, new antenna, new parts for some of the accessories). The Dragon upgrade process doesn't even begin until "late this year." No mention of any differentiation between -M and -X customers (other than assumedly place in line).

[Jason Ramsey]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77175-EPIC-M-UPGRADE-PROGRAM-Begins-Tomorrow-for-FREE

[vincent thomas]

Not really... Epic upgrade start end of this year and Scarlet not before 2013

Hat off for red politic , hope it could inspire others... It should no..?

[Jason Ramsey]

arg. sorry. am tired. epic-m upgrade program is for some other upgrades to those cams to bring it to current spec. dragon sensor is diff.

[Kevin Marshall]

EDIT: Nevermind, you found it

[Erich Ocean]

It's like Christmas Day for many Red Owners.

Truer words were never spoken.

[PappasArts]

WOW! RED knows how to punch back hard. Can't wait to see it.

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1334611910.jpg

Pappas
http://PAPPASARTS.WORDPRESS.COM
http://TWITTER.COM/PAPPASARTS

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Sensor size of Dragon is not Full Frame. Thank-f#$king-goodness. I really dislike FF, and despite not having to use it, producers have the habbit of asking for stuff they don't know about but had only just heard about. Ala "Why shoot on an Alexa? Isn't the 5D full 1080HD?"

Oddly, nobody is giving exacting info, but it seems 6k sensor size will be in the realm of 5k, maybe a bit bigger. I can deal with that... not sure what I'll do with the extra 1k, but hey. Why not.

I really feel the cinema world dodged a bullet for the better. This was definately the way to go with Dragon, imo.

[Kholi]

30 x 15(ish) for the 6K sensor, Jim finally responded. APS-H is great to have, I am a fan of the extra real-estate.

15+ Of native DR is a pretty strong claim. But if it's even 14 of useable native DR then, as usual, people have a lot of catching up to do.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Do you know what the diagonal image circle measurement would be to fulfill that area? 31mm?

It's 2:1 ratio at that size, so the narrow aspect will likely help hide any borderline lenses, keeping the frame more within the fat part of the circle, if you get what i'm saying.

[bruceallen]

Pythagoras says 33.5mm diagonal?

It is late though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com (http://www.boacinema.com)

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Pythagoras says 33.5mm diagonal?

It is late though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com (http://www.boacinema.com)

lol. :thumbsup:

I hope you are right, my lenses are advertised as having an image circle of 33.54mm!

[Doctor Wu]

I'm glad it's not coming out til end of year (I hope). I've barely started using my Scarlet's MX chip.
And I'm glad I have CP2s to cover that larger sensor!

[Kholi]

Scarlets not til 2013 -- Jim himself

I wonder if theyr'e gonna do more than hand Scarlet owners 4K @ higher frame rates. Seems like the way to begin returning the market to something stable.

[EndCredits]

I really feel the cinema world dodged a bullet for the better.

What do you mean?

[plasmasmp]

The 6k for $6000 is amazing. If it truly has 15 stops DR, it would be even more insane. I hope in the meantime Scarlet gets a software 4.5k ana mode usable at 24fps. I know the Dragon upgrade was supposed to replace boards as well as the sensor on the Scarlet, so maybe there is a chance of 24p 5k in the future.

[yoclay]

The 6k for $6000 is amazing. If it truly has 15 stops DR, it would be even more insane. I hope in the meantime Scarlet gets a software 4.5k ana mode usable at 24fps. I know the Dragon upgrade was supposed to replace boards as well as the sensor on the Scarlet, so maybe there is a chance of 24p 5k in the future.

I second this and here is why.
As one amongst many who took their first babysteps with DSLR's 3 years ago, I am moving on. The 5D Mark III response from Canon doesn't cut it anymore. I shoot on RED Epic whenever I can. The reason is that I continue to do stills and video. Pulling a vertical image from a horizontal frame (meaning I can shoot a usuable video at the same time) I need that extra vertical height of 600 pixels more. (2700pix) 4K for stills usage is just on the edge of what is usuable in that situation for many photo assignments (2100 pixels). So if I went ahead and purchased a Scarlet I would today only be getting 12 fps at the 5K resolution. Being able to have 24/25p would be the tipping point for me. Add on top of that the increased DR and lowlight ability of Dragon and there is no other choice in my book.

Ultimately the new paradigm for my work is that I get to be a photographer twice, once at capture and the second time in reviewing the rushes.
It also allows me to have greater naturalness from my subjects because they no longer have to hold still. In this new way of working I am relaxed, because if it happened before me, I got it in the can.

[Emanuel]

30 x 15(ish) for the 6K sensor, Jim finally responded. APS-H is great to have, I am a fan of the extra real-estate.

15+ Of native DR is a pretty strong claim. But if it's even 14 of useable native DR then, as usual, people have a lot of catching up to do.LOL Extra real-estate? Where? In Rome, you don't find nothing for less than half a million!

Remember, HDR. No other brand will give you that :-)

[Michael Olsen]

So instead of saying "RED has made huge innovations in imaging technology and is proud to offer our new Epic-X camera with the Dragon sensor for $34,500 starting in 2012." they have essentially given a 94% discount to current owners by offering them the ability to upgrade for only $6000.

Imagine the implications of this catching on...

[Simon Shasha]

In regards to Scarlet, is it possible to build a new Scarlet around a Dragon sensor, or is Dragon only for those that currently own a Scarlet?

[sblfilms]

There will definitely be Epics and Scarlets that ship with Dragon in 2013. But like the M-to-MX upgrade on the Red One, don't expect to see Epics and Scarlets ship with Dragon until after all the current owners have been given the opportunity to upgrade.

[hawaj]

Last year Jim said that upgrading Scarlet will be more expensive than upgrading the Epic becase they have to exchange cirquit boards which have insuficient computational power to handle the Dragon. But he can change it 10 times till the 2013, because real final cost will depends on many other factors.

[Steve R]

So instead of saying "RED has made huge innovations in imaging technology and is proud to offer our new Epic-X camera with the Dragon sensor for $34,500 starting in 2012." they have essentially given a 94% discount to current owners by offering them the ability to upgrade for only $6000.

Imagine the implications of this catching on...

Can you explain this? I don't know what you mean by a 94% discount.

[J Bellari]

Can you explain this? I don't know what you mean by a 94% discount.

I think he means you don't have to buy a whole new camera over to get the new sensor,
like buying a Canon C300 and then having to sell it to get a C500 if you want more resolution
or faster frame rates 6 months-1yr later.

[TimurCivan]

I think he means you don't have to buy a whole new camera over to get the new sensor,
like buying a Canon C300 and then having to sell it to get a C500 if you want more resolution
or faster frame rates 6 months-1yr later.

Except,mother c500 and c300 have the same chip........

[J Bellari]

Saw this on Reduser today that made my day/month/year:

from Jarred Land:
" Heh Heh your gonna love the next build... :)

Which.. btw.. is also the first build where we turn on the Gyro and Accelerometers that have been sitting in the camera patiently waiting :) "


If that ain't a good enough free customer loyalty perk,
I don't know what is...

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

What do you mean?

It is my opinion, which there are some who disagree, that FF cinematography is not superior than typical S35mm or thereabouts sensor size, aesthetically in regards to perspective and etc. FF cinematography forces you to use longer lenses to get equivalent field of view. This means FF will inherently have the potential to have much less depth of field in similar circumstances to a smaller format. It is in my humble opinion that super shallow depth of field is not good, unless story calls for it, and seldom at that. At normal or long focal lengths, a T/2.8 on S35mm is decently shallow. A T/1.4 on S35mm is very shallow in my opinion. I pull focus as an AC and I shoot films as a DP. Aesthetically, I like out of focus but not globs of color and shapes to the extreme. I typically shoot at T/4 on S35mm. If the world went FF over night, if I were in the exact same situation but had a 5DmII, I'd have to use a longer lens to get the FoV I wanted, and thus the DoF would be more shallow. If I wished to get my image back to where it was, I'd have to stop down the lens. I don't have the math with me, but I'd assume a stop and a half or so. Lighting to a T/8 is not what I want to do, but would be what I'd have to do in order to get some of my DoF back. Also, there are not any good FF cinema lenses out there. The CP.2's are pretty good, don't get me wrong. But I don't want to live in a world where CP.2's are my ONLY option. Oh great, I can either shoot with CP.2's or photography lenses. Not to mention a total lack of cinema zooms. Cinema glass is expensive now, so I can't imagine if a cinema lens maker would make a lens that covered full frame and performed as high. We'll either see compromises in quality or lenses that make the typical $125,000 set of Cooke 5/i's look like bargain pricing.

And you may ask, "well if you don't like it, why don't you just not use it?"

And that is a great point... however, producers seem to pride themselves in not knowing anything about cinematography, yet still making big decisions based off of things they overhear others say. So despite all the reasons, I would inevitably be hired by producers who's nephew convinced them with his 5DmII that full frame video was better for some dumb reason like 'it can see more' or something. Now I can't use cinema zooms, any cinema primes except CP.2's, which are good but are no S4's, Ultra's or etc. I'll either have to push ISO to close the lens down and regain depth, or I'll have to light to a higher stop, or I'll have to see my image get really shallow and my focus puller get stressed. Pulling focus is not easy. You read ASC DP's in American Cinematographer talk about shooting wide open at a T/1.4 or T/2 and feeling really bad for the AC. That is on s35mm film... and those are the best focus pullers in the union. I'm not looking forward to having to take time to reshoot something because of focus issues when the image doesn't need to be that shallow. Deeper DoF is my thing, and it helps speed up production by eliminating possible focus issues.

Again, I'm not advocating Citizen Kane deep focus. I'm talking about your standard shallow DoF at a T/2.8 or T/4 on s35mm.

[Luis Caffesse]

producers seem to pride themselves in not knowing anything about cinematography, yet still making big decisions based off of things they overhear others say.

Agreed 1000%.
The worst term to come to the forefront in the past couple of years is "full frame"
(though it may be a tie with the erroneous 'good DOF')

When people don't know specifics that name implies that anything that is not 'full frame' is somehow LESS capable... and therefore a worst choice.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the question "Is it full frame?" (when asking about an FS100, F3, Red, etc).

[KINOKS]

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the question "Is it full frame?" (when asking about an FS100, F3, Red, etc).

Annoying isn't it?:)

I hate FF. s35 and 4/3 is perfect. The shallow DOF of FF is absolutely horrific. Mostly because it's used to excessively, but even if not so, it's just to shallow. And the reason why it's so popular is because there are lot's and lot's of amateurs and people who never used larger sensor/format cameras that got this gear in their hands. And this is because the gear is so cheap.

I hope RED wont go FF somewhere in the future. Although it's possible. It's the market that finally decides on what it wants to shoot on. If everybody will be screaming for FF than that's what companies will produce eventually I guess... I've never shoot on RED but this would definitely have an impact on the market, forcing others to develop cameras with FF sensors.

[Simon Shasha]

For those that don't own a current RED Scarlet, is there a rough estimate of how much a Dragon sensor is going to cost? Do you think they will offer a pre-packaged Scarlet with a Dragon sensor already inside?

[Emanuel]

Agreed 1000%.
The worst term to come to the forefront in the past couple of years is "full frame"
(though it may be a tie with the erroneous 'good DOF')

When people don't know specifics that name implies that anything that is not 'full frame' is somehow LESS capable... and therefore a worst choice.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the question "Is it full frame?" (when asking about an FS100, F3, Red, etc).LOL

You should post more often, Luis, I miss your posts :-)

[vladszp]

"I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the question "Is it full frame?" (when asking about an FS100, F3, Red, etc)."
then i answer YES...
s35 is full frame in cinema world...

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Agreed 1000%.
The worst term to come to the forefront in the past couple of years is "full frame"
(though it may be a tie with the erroneous 'good DOF')

When people don't know specifics that name implies that anything that is not 'full frame' is somehow LESS capable... and therefore a worst choice.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten the question "Is it full frame?" (when asking about an FS100, F3, Red, etc).

Exactly. If it's not full frame, they feel it's just less. Why shoot Alexa? Isn't the 5dMII full HD, too? lol.

[maarek]

I hate FF. s35 and 4/3 is perfect.
I hope RED wont go FF somewhere in the future.

RED Epic is already at APS-H size which is only a 1.3x crop. It's very close to being fullframe.

[vladszp]

vista vision is annoying format and there are reason why is ditched in 1960 ...
need more light and its harder to follow focus ...
nothing revolutionary about FF ...

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

RED Epic is already at APS-H size which is only a 1.3x crop. It's very close to being fullframe.

Not quite.

The 5k Epic sensor is around 27.7 by 14.6mm ... APS-H is 28.7 by 19mm... so it's not there yet, especially in vertical height. Image circles (from lenses) have a harder time covering large sensors when square, since the circle's horizontal coverage increasingly shrinks as you move away from the center. Hence, the width can be much longer than the height when maximizing out a lenses ability to fit a large rectangle into the circle.

Full Frame is 36x24... a very far cry from either.

Right now the Red Epic 5K sensor has a surface area of 404mm2, APS-H has 545mm2, and full frame is 864mm2. FF is over double the surface area of Epic 5k.

I believe 6k will be 30×15.8mm... which is more like APS-H sized... larger in length, shorter in height. That is an area of 474mm2, which is almost exactly between Epic 5k and APS-H.

So Epic Dragon sensor is right between Epic MX and APS-H. Neither one reaching that surface area, albeit the horizontal width being there.

6K Dragon sensor at the size mentioned above, is still only 55% of the surface area of Full Frame.