Can AE create a dust image?

[David_M_Payne]

I'm getting ready to shoot part of my movie at the local lab at our community collage. In one scene I have the character looking at a mushroom that pops in his face covering him with spoor. Can the AE 6.5 pro program I have do this effect or should I use some means of blowing dust (Talcum powder etc) in his face?

David

[Neil Rowe]

it would look best with a real effect. just use a long tube and put some poweder in it and blow it through from off screen behind the mushroom to make it look like its coming out of it.. or just out a tube in the mushroom .. or whatever.. an effect that is well done for live action almost always looks the better than some low level post effect.

[David_M_Payne]

it would look best with a real effect. just use a long tube and put some poweder in it and blow it through from off screen behind the mushroom to make it look like its coming out of it.. or just out a tube in the mushroom .. or whatever.. an effect that is well done for live action almost always looks the better than some low level post effect.


Thats probably the best idea and is along the lines of what I was thinking of.

David

[matthewd5]

i would do the real effect but in front of a blue or green screen and then you can enhance it in AE later on.

kind of the best of both worlds type effect.

matthew

[bagheadinc]

If you're going to key in the dust, it would probably be best to use a black screen for a dust effect (dust, smoke, fog, etc key better in black rather than blue or green).

[Matt Grunau]

What everyone has suggest is good, and I hate to have a big but, BUT, another alternative would be to find a copy of the program called Illusion. It is a 2D particle system for only a couple hundred dollars. It was actually boght and put into Combustion as their particle system, that's how good it looks. I know it seems a pain to go out and get a pice of softeware, but you can have it on any color background you want (the guys here were dead on with the black), but you can also make alpha channels for it. ALso, there are literally HUNDREDS of emitters in seperate libraries which are all fully and easily customized. Go to Wondertouch homepage and check out the samples. Their fire is good looking theyr water sprays are nice, dust, somke and fog are awsome, and if you dont like the way the emitter looks, you simply change it. Not enough dust? Make the emiiter emit more particle. THey are dying off to quickly? Inrease their life. Dont like the look? Change the actuall Particle type for that emitter, or even make your own in Photoshop and bring them in.

Filming your own stuff is always best, and 3D progams offer you to have trully 3D particles, but for the money, Illusion is the best program out thee for fast particle effects. And, you don't have to worry about lighting, you dont have to worry about tweaking the image to get the background pure black 0,0,0 (which will also alter your dust elements you film even if only a little), and you have total control ofer their color, behaviour, number, speed, weight, and more. AND all of those attributes can be altered over the life pf the particle, giving some really dynamic looks.

Sorry for the mini rant, but one I got a hold of this software it has had a HUGE influence on my work, and you can probably get a cheap Illusion package on E-bay. Lastly, since it runs using the OpenGl on your video card, the render times are litterally faster than real time. I often render simple elements at 10 fps, and trully complex ones (when I need them as a whole element and dont feel like mixing it together in post) no longer than 1 frame every second or two. Try getting that from a 3D app, or filming it by hand.

[/rant] :thumbsup:

Hope that helps

[DEATHTOPRINT]

can you get combustion for mac?

[kai]

yes, you can.


Also, check out Particular from Trapcode, it's a great particle plug for AE. Just another option...

[Barry_S]

I'll vouch for both Particular and Particle Illusion, but I agree 100% that you should do this as a live action effect unless you want the spores to look "otherworldly".

[Neil Rowe]

..yeah particle illusion always makes "after school special" looking effects. and ive tweaked the life out of it to make it as good as possible for different stuff. ive never tried particular . if you wanted to do a simulation you should just have some maya head make the effect for you using fluid effects real quick or something, cause CGI can look close to real with stufflike that.

[Matt Grunau]

..yeah particle illusion always makes "after school special" looking effects. and ive tweaked the life out of it to make it as good as possible for different stuff. ive never tried particular . if you wanted to do a simulation you should just have some maya head make the effect for you using fluid effects real quick or something, cause CGI can look close to real with stufflike that.

Actually, if you use it right, Illusion does great work. You can get pretty close to real with Illusion, and yes I have done it, but you really have to know your compositing and shot setup. The entire point of using Illusion instead of software like MAYA is not only the learning curve, but the time to setup, tweak, and render. Illusion does great work, but requires a special touch with integration, as well as forward thinking in preproduction.

Yes, real elements look the best, and yes particle systems in software like MAYA are nice too, but nothing beats Illusion for performanc to price ratio.

[Neil Rowe]

Actually, if you use it right, Illusion does great work. You can get pretty close to real with Illusion, and yes I have done it, but you really have to know your compositing and shot setup. The entire point of using Illusion instead of software like MAYA is not only the learning curve, but the time to setup, tweak, and render. Illusion does great work, but requires a special touch with integration, as well as forward thinking in preproduction.

Yes, real elements look the best, and yes particle systems in software like MAYA are nice too, but nothing beats Illusion for performanc to price ratio.

..just to be clear you are talking about "particle illusion" ?

http://www.wondertouch.com/default.asp

..are you implying that im using it wrong, or do not know what im doing? im not saying its super dumb.. it can look great for slight subtle effects or things which are merely comlimentary to the main effects. or for animation its great as a main effect generator where things dont have to look photo real. ive used it a number of times. ..im only saying that as a mian effect generator.. front and center- it doesnt compare to the real thing or CGI. and IMHO appears "after school specialish".
of course we can agree to disagree. people are free to check outthe website and view what it does there.. heres a link to whats probably the best demo for it.
http://www.wondertouch.com/mpg/reel_2004_siggraph_small.mpg

[Barry_S]

I think 2D particle systems are great but every project has different requirements and resources available. I've seen super-cheesy 2D particle effects and I've seen seamless work that makes your jaw drop. The usefulness really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. For a poof! of mushroom spores, I think the plastic tube and powder with a little backlighting effect is cheap 'n easy. If the mushroom was from outer space and you wanted little blue twinkles mixed with the powder effect, a combination of real powder, 2D particles, and good sound effects would sell the shot.

[Matt Grunau]

..just to be clear you are talking about "particle illusion" ?

http://www.wondertouch.com/default.asp

..are you implying that im using it wrong, or do not know what im doing? im not saying its super dumb.. it can look great for slight subtle effects or things which are merely comlimentary to the main effects. or for animation its great as a main effect generator where things dont have to look photo real. ive used it a number of times. ..im only saying that as a mian effect generator.. front and center- it doesnt compare to the real thing or CGI. and IMHO appears "after school specialish".
of course we can agree to disagree. people are free to check outthe website and view what it does there.. heres a link to whats probably the best demo for it.
http://www.wondertouch.com/mpg/reel_2004_siggraph_small.mpg


That is exactly the program I am talking about. I am not assuming anything on how you use it, but I have achieved effects far better than an "after school special", as you stated. I thought I was clear that if used properly and with some forward thinking, Illusion can be just as good as anything else. But, as I said, you have to know your shots before you use Illusion, and you have to have everything staged for only a 2D particle system to look right. If you take a look at the TV credits it has, you will see some fairly intresting names.

I'm not saying anyone is dumb, only that for the money, you can't beat the job that it does, and is used correctly, its effects can be very good. I stated quite clearly that it is not as good as real elements or MAYA, but for the versatility and price, it is a great deal.

But if you dont like the look of illusion for a main particle system, that's fine. I like what it does, and other people might was well. Or, they may not. Itis all in the eye of the beholder. :evil:


Edit:

Just to reiterate, I am NOT calling anyone dumb or incompitant iamloser, not you or anyone. Nor am I implying that you don't know the software. For certain things, my experience has been that Illusion does great work, and is very speedy. I was never trying to insult anyone, especially on this board, as There are many things about filmography I do not know and to whic you yourself have weighed in to help. Please don't take my words as insulting, for that is not the way they were meant. The time it takes to set up, light, film and use real elements can be a long one, and with a 3D particle system, the render times alone can be high. One thing I think we could both agree on is the implementation of the any effect. A real element filmed or evern the greatest software if used wrongly can be worse than even uber cheap effects put toghether by someone who knows what he/she is doing. I guess I should have been more clear.

[Neil Rowe]

Rapier_100a ,
no prob :) i like the software too. and dont worry, im not that sensetive or narrow minded. ..im just feisty sometimes... cause im overworked. lol particle illusion has been used in various feature films and probably too many high end commercials to count. I know that in the right hands with the right mindset and planning it can be pretty cool.

[BLUESPIDER]

I swore long time ago I found several free stock footages of real dust particles and fog shot behind a black backdrop. It's been 5 yrs ago and I don't know if that link is still up. I can't seem to find it. I'm sure if you look carefully you can find stock libraries of dust footage. good luck, real effects works the best.

[fixitinpost]

Detonation films (www.detonationfilms.com) might be what you're thinking of. They have several dust type things up. I don't think they'd be very suitable for this type of application though.

[Matt Grunau]

I swore long time ago I found several free stock footages of real dust particles and fog shot behind a black backdrop. It's been 5 yrs ago and I don't know if that link is still up. I can't seem to find it. I'm sure if you look carefully you can find stock libraries of dust footage. good luck, real effects works the best.



Detonation films (www.detonationfilms.com) might be what you're thinking of. They have several dust type things up. I don't think they'd be very suitable for this type of application though.


The BEST stock footage I have seen and used would have to be Artbeats. I couldnt find any Dust only, but here is an idea: http://www.artbeats.com/prod/search.php?pg=1&kw=smoke+and+dust&fm=&ct=

with some time speed up and a little creative rotosplining, you could get convincing dust.

[Neil Rowe]

..or with a simple little puff of a bag with some powder in it and a tube you could have the real thing. im all for CGI and post FX when needed. but in this case i think it would be alot easier to just do it live.. i mean cmon guys .. were talking about making a little poof of dust. and all of a sudden its too hard to do. cause we dont know which shortcut key to use in our NLE or compositor.. its dust... not a nuclear explosion. i honestly think it would look worse and take more time to do it in post. unless you wanted ti to swirl just perfect and/or do something special.. it just doesnt seem like the practical way to go IMHO.. anyway i guess that up to the guy doing it..

[BLUESPIDER]

..or with a simple little puff of a bag with some powder in it and a tube you could have the real thing. im all for CGI and post FX when needed. but in this case i think it would be alot easier to just do it live.. i mean cmon guys .. were talking about making a little poof of dust. and all of a sudden its too hard to do. cause we dont know which shortcut key to use in our NLE or compositor.. its dust... not a nuclear explosion. i honestly think it would look worse and take more time to do it in post. unless you wanted ti to swirl just perfect and/or do something special.. it just doesnt seem like the practical way to go IMHO.. anyway i guess that up to the guy doing it..

But I want my dust to come out to a shape of a women. :thumbsup:

[Neil Rowe]

..you can only do that in a disney film... and only for one frame.