Focusing compared to Ex1r

[JamesVibe]

Before I go negative on the HPX250, let me just say I really wanted this camera to work out for me!!!! I'm looking to buy a new cam, and seemed like I was going to go with 250. My background - I shoot in NYC, corporate events, performances, and interviews for over 13years. Edit on Avid. I use all types of cameras,(Ex1/3, HPX500, Hvx200,170, CanonGL) but own DVX100a (which i love and still work with - shout out to Dvx fans), and Canon7D.

Im not talking about the macro focus issue either....which has been discussed. I'm aware of it, can't be closer than 3feet and zoomed in. Ok, makes sense ... wasn't worried about that. So I go to B&H for one more last look at camera before I buy.....I'm sure glad I did because, unless the floor model is messed up, I have to say this camera has a real focus issue. Here is what i mean

At B&H, the HPX250 is right next to Ex1r. I was able to look at both side by side, using lcd and external Marshall monitors. I zoomed fully across to the other side of counter....on a person.... about 25feet away....give or take. Iris wide open on both cam's. Store lighting. The 250 got me in closer, as it should, but when using AUTO FOCUS (and I for one use AF alot, no shame in that to the folks who always say "i never use AF"). Man, that thing was hunting and pecking ever 5 sec. Again, full zoom, at least 25feet away from subject...guy talking normal, slightly moving back and forth. Now on the EX1r....it was rock solid. Never lost it. Doing slow pans up and down body to face, the Ex1 stayed in focus.... the 250 kept losing it, over and over again. Almost like it was to sensitive ...didn't know where to settle down. Thats both with the pans AND WITH IT locked down ON GUYS FACE! Now i tried manual focus. The 250 was ok. But seemed to slightly lose focus briefly if I powered zoom out as fast as servo would go. Ex1r - solid....although it lost little focus on zoom out too...but far less. Another issue I have with HPX250 - the slider for focus has 3 postions - 1)AF 2)MF 3)Infinity. Swithching down from AF to MF its very easy to switch into the infinity setting by accident thus throwing you completely out of focus. Errrrrrrr. Depending on the shoot, i switch AF/MF alot...that's not good.

So what the heck is going on here? If this is the way 250 performs.... I can't deal with that. Plus, no dialing in WB, plus the peaking sucks! Had it +7, High.... and it was really hard to make it out on someone face/eyes. Compare that again to Ex1r...... Ex1r great peaking function, different colors. Dial WB which is very helpful.

The picture quality on HPX250 look fantastic though. The skin colors seemed right on. Really sharp and beautiful looking. I love AVC I-100. What a great codec. But the lens man...the lens!!!!!! ---- 22x is great...but it does feel kinda plastic compared to the Ex1r. You move the iris ring on Ex1 and you can feel the metal mechanics of it...feel better made. the HPX250 feels cheaper.

WAnd it is... The HPX250 at $5,199 is soooo nice. BUT, if the zoom behaves this way (maybe the floor model not good shape???) then IMO not worth it. And Im pissed at Panasonic for releasing something like this. I rather spend that extra 1K and have solid focus, excellent peaking, WB dial in, and SxS cards (faster download). 4:2:2 is great! The ex1r 4:2:0. which is not bad....not broadcast however. Still, I don't shoot alot of things the go to broadcast anyway.

So, please tell me I'm wrong here...the demo model is bad....... I really like the price of HPX250. But the frustration I will experience with that damn focusing isn't worth it to me.

[dcloud]

isnt wb dialable on the function knob?

edit: i checked the manula.. yes that is odd for panasonic to not have that... both this and the avc cameras have different software... and to think i thought they already merged all they professional broadcast companies.. i hoep the next p2 or avc cam has features of both worlds

[digitalgecko]

The 250 is what it is. I bought one and I love it. It's a good fit for my style of shooting. I don't have focus problems because I don't use auto focus. I have never lost focus during a servo zoom fast or slow. Some people have reported manual fast snap zooms as to losing focus and that's probably true -- I have seen some examples. But for this kind of quality and AVC Intra 100, for me buying the 250 was a no brainer. But for other poeple with different needs it may not be the camera for them. Find the camera that satisfies your shooting style and buy it. That's all we can do.

[Mark Williams]

Good point. But why should the consumer have to settle for what is described by some as an inferior auto focus. Auto focus worked well on every other Panasonic camera I have own, why not this one? What did they design differently on this camera. Is it the new 22x lens? If Panasonic can't fix this then maybe they should disable auto focus on all new manufactured HPX250 cameras and advertise it only as a manual focus camera. No one should have to just settle for it.

[Phil1076]

I guess it depends on how you look at it...If you buy a car with a manual transmission and the first gear doesn't work, that might be ok; you might be one of those guys who always starts out in second gear and never uses the first.

Anyway you look at it, though, it's a manufacturer's defect (the AC130 and AC160 have this problem also) and it's really up to you whether it bothers you or not. It may simply be the unintended consequence of having such a massive zoom range.

If it doesn't bother you then get the camera. If it does bother you, then either wait for a fix or get another brand. Either way it's a manufacturer's defect.

[Mark Williams]

Agreed. However, I am a loyal Panasonic customer for over 20 years and this "defect" as described by some just isn't what I am used to from Panasonic. I really want to purchase the HPX250 but perhaps I will wait to see what if anything is done to remedy the problem before researching the Canon XF300 which is somewhat similar in size and weight but is unfortunately $1,200 more and does not have AVC-INTRA 100.

[sonuxxx]

Same here fan of Panasonic want to get the hpx250 or ac160 but the autofocus is pretty bad on them so waiting lil more to see if they fix this problem otherwise loking to get xf305 too

[digitalgecko]

I believe I read somewhere that Jan C. of Panasonic said they were indeed looking at the issue. Maybe there can be a firmware fix.

Also I found on the Tumblr blog that Panasonic believes using the push to autofocus button while in autofocus mode will help you to focus faster....

"-Some claims that the autofocus is slow (especially on the tele end)
Autofocus algorithms are designed to balance the following elements:

Movement distance of lens mechanisms
Focus speed
“Hunting” around the focal point
For professional use cameras, reduced hunting and smooth movement during zoom operation is very important, which is why it may seem that the AF is slow.
Especially, with this new, industry best 22X zoom lens being used, it may feel especially slow on the tele end. A way to cope, and quickly get focus is to use the PUSH AUTO button, while in auto focus mode. Please experiment with this technique.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luqellgrku1qlgpo8.png

[David Saraceno]

It would be great if you can assign a user button to that process, because it's not the easiest to locate that push auto assist button when shooting.

[digitalgecko]

It would be great if you can assign a user button to that process, because it's not the easiest to locate that push auto assist button when shooting.

Well, at least it is some sort of technique to deal with the autofocus issue. I haven't tried it out yet to see if it works.

[JamesVibe]

I used that too. I didn't see any difference. Still hunts for focus constantly. I mean it will gets a focus pretty quickly..seems like it has it....BUT then it loses it just as quick. And it seems to happen over, over and over again!!! If another object or person remotely gets in the frame.... less than a 1/4 of the frame - then it really goes wacko on focus. Compared to the EX1r.... it finds its focus point and stays rock steady....only a big change in frame throws it off. I can trust it. With the 250, I feel like i would be bitting my nails, praying in the middle of important shoot, that i don't lose focus and ruin the shot right at a critical sound bite moment that can only be taped once!!!!

Thanks for the photo too. As you can see....the AF slider --- if you are not careful when you switch that slider down to MF ( and it takes a little pressure to snap it down from AF to MF - you will go into the "infinity" setting and immediately go out of focus. Real easy to do when you are running and gunning.

I don't see how a firmware upgrade is going to help this issue. Hope I'm wrong. I love Panasonic too. But, love my reputation and business more.... I need solid working performance! Lets start with focus first! AVC-Intra100 comes a far second.

[Mark Williams]

I can confirm what JamesVibe reports. I went to my local dealer today and handled the HPX250 for about 30 minutes. The "push auto" button does work but then it starts to hunt focus again w/o having moved the camera.

[digitalgecko]

Yeah, I played around with it too it couldn't tell much from it. I look at it this way. This is a smaller version of the HPX370 and that's a manual focus camera, no auto focus. Maybe putting autofocus on this camera was an afterthought. And since it's the first 22X lens for a camera this size, their standard autofocus kit just isn't working as well. If you rely heavily on autofocus you are going to get bit with this camera. No doubt. I've always operated 2/3-inch cameras before and they are always manual focus, so I'm used to running a manual focus and iris. So not a big deal to me. But I can see alot of people in the events area probably relying on auto everything because they are doing so much at the same time.


And I think it's a valid point to say that all of these other cameras had auto focus system that worked fairly well, why not this one? And I think the answer comes down to that new 22X lens. It probably needs a new autofocus system designed just for it.

[Mark Williams]

Digitalgecko, yes I agree with your comment. It definitely seems to be a design issue. From the short time I had with the cam, I liked it. The slowest zoom speed is still not slow enough IMO and ND filter button is a little small and in a different location than I am used to but otherwise it seems like a very good cam. It could be a great cam with some fine tuning by Panasonic. I think I am going to take a wait and see position for now.

[digitalgecko]

Although the zoom speed is not creepy crawly slow, I find it is one of the best of the HD handhelds that I've tried. I like it better thank the XF305. You don't have to press so far to get the zoom started. And I've heard people complain about the EX1 and Rs zoom controller. I occasionally shoot theatre stage shows and I find, at least on my camera, the slowest zoom speed very smooth and useful. As far as the ND filters, yeah they're kind of small and hinky, but they do work.

[Danny1280]

I appreciate the intelligent way you guys are discussing the issue.
Showing that there is an alternative to the back-and-forth of either "complain-complain-complain" or "If-you-don't-like-it-get-another-camera" kind of talk.
You're finessing it!

[andyhof]

I've been using the hpx171e for about 3 years since moving from the bigger 2100e.

I have had the same autofocus experience everyone has spoken about.... completely unreliable.
I have never been able to rely on the autofocus on the 171e.

Luckily, it's no problem at all because I never grew up with autofocus. One thing that helps me is the focal length display
on the lower right hand corner of viewfinder. It displays the distance in ft/m. I shoot news/documentaries and sometimes
there just no time to snap zoom in, focus, snap back out... so I go with the distance and my best judgement. I've gotten
very good with it over the past few years.



I also have to disagree with some who've said that this type of design flaw from Panasonic surprises them.
My first professional experiences with Panasonic came from using the Mii format during the late 80's. Hits galore and
it just became the norm... you accepted it. BetaSp came along and wiped Mii under the carpet.

But, I love the 171e and everything it can do. I'm being moved to the 250 during Q2 of 2012 and looking forward to the lens and
improved viewfinder.

[Mac]

The focus issues with this lens are the major weakness of an otherwise terrific $5000 camera. I never use auto focus, but I do occasionally use push to focus, and it seems to work much better... However, one thing I've noticed is that infinity can be variable. Two nights ago I was shooting planes landing at SF Airport (wide open), I hit the auto infinity button, but the plane was out of focus even though the scale in the finder read at infinity. I manually dialed it back and forth until the image was sharp - but the weird thing is the scale read infinity the whole time I was adjusting it, and visually it looked like it was going from 6 feet to infinity. That's not good. I need to be able to trust the readout for quick shooting.

Somehow I doubt that a FW fix is going to solve it though, so it's another thing I have to adjust to.

[Terry_Martin]

Sometimes it is important to realize that there are few absolutes in our world. Event video places different demands on hardware than more precise but controlled inde film projects. Same is true with autofocus results.

As an “event” shooter, I have always relied on autofocus. The first shoot with the HPX250 was a local band gig at a small venue. There were strong stage lights and a jet black background. Run and gun HPX250 autofocus worked perfectly, tack sharp, no hunting, and it even ignored foreground distracting mike stands. The HPX250 performed as well as or better than a HMC150 or XH A1 in the same environment.

Recently I shot an armature ballet in a recycled rehearsal hall. The backdrop was neutral grey, the floor was neutral grey, and the dancers ranged form 25 ft to 60 ft from the camera with harsh to non existent lighting. Fortunately, I test shot the rehearsal and noted that the autofocus was continuously hunting. Clearly the environment was “difficult” so I manually zone focused the performance. After reviewing the performance vs the autofocus rehearsal, the rehearsal results were OK, but the zone focused performance was better, although not always perfect.

From the comments is this thread, I suspect that the autofocus algorithm could be improved, but from my experience, it is not a disaster. Perhaps it needs slightly more contrast to lock on than other cameras.

[digitalgecko]

Interesting. I shot the Nutcracker from first row balcony (no leg room!) And was about 75 feet from mid stage. I didn't have to adjust my manual focus hardly at all. You must have been much closer to the action.

[Barry_Green]

I'm not much of an AF user, so I didn't spend much time with it until folks started complaining; it seemed to work to me. After some testing, I can report that what I'm finding is that in low light/low contrast situations, the HPX250 (and AC160 and AC130) do hunt more than my HMC150 does. The HMC150 locks on, in scenarios where the 250 continues to hunt. In bright light/high contrast situations the autofocus seems excellent and easily a match for the 150. So it's really only in low light situations where it's an issue, but hey, if the 150 can do it, I would want the 250 to be able to do it as well.

I am encouraged that Jan said they're looking into it, and look forward to what they report.

[Mac]

I don't use auto focus either, but as I said above, I found a discrepancy between the readout in the finder when setting to infinity and the actual distance the lens is focused on. This obviously concerns me because, without a scale on the lens, I often rely on the finder scale to set focus quickly. Is anyone else noticing a problem or is it just my camera?

[Mark Williams]

It's good that folks are continuing to post "user experience" here. I think new products are sometimes rushed into production and the engineers do not have the benefit of "real world" use under a variety of conditions. I am confident that Panasonic will look into these issues and try to fix them. As I said before the HPX250 has the potential to move from a very good to a great video camera.

[JamesVibe]

Some are saying its hunts in "low light"..... but what is low light? From what I tested... "low light" is not that low.....in fact I wouldn't even call it low light. Just basic store indoor lights. If you have been to B&H, i wouldn't classify the light as low. Not bright by any sense.... but don't want to give the impression that we are talking "dark".... because I am not.

It would be great if Panasonic could come out with HPX250B - maybe they will ....but that will take sometime.... like a year or more
.... I would be willing to pay an extra $1000 if they totally revamp that lens...and put something robust in there.... currently it has a very plastic, toy feeling.

I think Panasonic missed an opportunity to make a huge mark on the industry with this camera. My wish list:

• Improve lens with solid AF
• improve peaking with option to select colors (god - the peaking is awful on 250)
• dial in white balance
• get rid of the quick infinity focus

This camera competitor is the Ex1r. They have all the above options I need. I would have loved to stay with Panny.... but looks like I'm jumping ship to Sony.

[MPGordon]

It would be great if Panasonic could come out with HPX250B - maybe they will ....but that will take sometime.... like a year or more
.... I would be willing to pay an extra $1000 if they totally revamp that lens...and put something robust in there.... currently it has a very plastic, toy feeling.

The possibility of something like a HPX250B is the only thing keeping my from getting the 250. Even though I rarely use AF for my current work, I'm hesitant to invest in my first camera if an AF fix is around the corner. I'm looking forward to hearing Jan's report once the Panasonic factory has looked into the issue.

I just like the image and the codec of the 250 so much more than the EX1. I'm also not a fan of the EX1's ergonomics (hand holding it destroys my wrist). But I do like the EX1's build quality and truly manual lens.

No camera is perfect, but it is frustrating to hear that the 250's AF is less functional that the 150/170. I'm just hoping that there is a firmware fix that could ameliorate some of the focus issues.

[Barry_Green]

but what is low light?
If you're reaching for the gain switch, it's low light. If the lens is wide open, it's low light. Whether you consider the scene adequately illuminated or not, it's what the camera has to deal with -- and if it's wide open and even using gain, then the light is too low for it to perform at its best.

[digitalgecko]

Well I find the peaking in the 250 to be fine. I can easily find focus with it cranked up to 7. And you have to comsider the price point of this camera. When it came out it was a thousand dollars cheaper than the EX1R and a 32Gb SXS is almost a thousand dollars as well. Now Panasonic may have priced the 250 too low. I too would have paid more money for a fully mechanical lens like the XF300 -- that didn't ramp all the way down to 3.4. Panasonic may have misjudged the the 250s market place. I think it should be considered more towards broadcast and less towards events. Although I use it for both.

[JamesVibe]

$5000 is ALOT of money..... $6000 even more! But how long will you have the camera? 5 years? Hopefully. Believe it or not I got 7 solid years out of my DVX100a!!! (which I love!) It paid for itself 10 times over. So, a thousand dollars more - in the long run - is totally worth it for an solid lens, solid performer like the EX1r. IMO, the peaking on EX1/3 is amazing...thats peaking!.... HPX250 can't hold a candle to that.

Don't get me wrong... the image with the Panasonic 250...(when its stable) is fantastic! I mean, its looks stellar! I love it. I really dig it. Like Mark said - it has sooo much potential!!!! A good camera that could be a great camera. BUT...... performance wise, it has issues. It could be better. (alot better in fact)

[Harry Pallenberg]

• Improve lens with solid AF
• improve peaking with option to select colors (god - the peaking is awful on 250)
• dial in white balance
• get rid of the quick infinity focus

This camera competitor is the Ex1r. They have all the above options I need. I would have loved to stay with Panny.... but looks like I'm jumping ship to Sony.

You might be well served if you take a look at the Canon XF300. IMHO - better peaking, AF, mech lens, and you can dial in settings to your hearts content - from white balance to ped, to too many to list... also better codec than the Sony and cheaper media - think $85 for 82 minutes.

[digitalgecko]

$5000 is ALOT of money..... $6000 even more! But how long will you have the camera? 5 years? Hopefully. Believe it or not I got 7 solid years out of my DVX100a!!! (which I love!) It paid for itself 10 times over. So, a thousand dollars more - in the long run - is totally worth it for an solid lens, solid performer like the EX1r. IMO, the peaking on EX1/3 is amazing...thats peaking!.... HPX250 can't hold a candle to that.

Don't get me wrong... the image with the Panasonic 250...(when its stable) is fantastic! I mean, its looks stellar! I love it. I really dig it. Like Mark said - it has sooo much potential!!!! A good camera that could be a great camera. BUT...... performance wise, it has issues. It could be better. (alot better in fact)

James, I think we are agreeing. The 250 has a great picture. And the few compromises that Panasonic made to keep a lower price point should maybe have not been done. The people who love this camera and want to use it would have paid more for more professional features: mechanical lens with greater light sensitivity through the zoom. I think the AF issue is something they missed and probably will be corrected later. It was a brand new lens design for Panasonic and I think they will get it right in the end.

[Daniel Epstein]

Just picked up a 250 as a replacement for an insurance loss of my 170 and overall I am very pleased. I don't use Auto Focus much but do use the momentary Auto focus button. Auto focus hunting is usually a problem when shooting with a longer lens so I try and avoid using it with a camera like this. Haven't figured out if the Auto Focus target is adjustable. Too many menus to learn. As far as not being able to set color balance by Kelvin I don't mind too much. I use the AW shift to warm and cool the camera pics and that has usually gotten me good results.

[hollyburgh]

Has anyone heard any news yet concerning the fix on the AF for the 250? Wondering if that is why they are now offering the rebate??? Please help us Jan!

[bruce7]

Bump.

We too are very interested to learn if there will be a fix coming.
AF not working is a deal-breaker for us.