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PaPa
12-20-2011, 06:39 PM
I got my GH2 in the mail today, installed the 65Mbps kae patch with GOP 3 and was really curious to compare the AF100 and the GH2 side by side. But what i wanted to see more was them at their worst.

I basically bounced a 1k light off of the wall/ceiling, started with a nikon 24mm lens at F2 and went all the way down the F16 with both cameras. I should mention that i really wanted to blow things out so i put both cameras at ISO 800. The AF100 was a 1/48th shutter and the GH2 was at 1/50th.

The af100 settings were:
Detail and V detail at -6
Chroma at -5
CineD gamma
Norm 2 matrix
everything else at 0

The GH2 had 3 different film modes all with their settings dialed down to -2
Cinema
Smooth
Nostalgia

You can draw your own conclusions from this little unscientific test, but one thing i did notice that was the similarity between the AF100 cinegamma and the GH2 cinema film mode. As people have expressed on the forums, they clip similarly, but what i did not expect was for the AF100 to be almost an entire stop more sensitive ( in appearance ) to the GH2 at the same ISO and F stop.

In the raw format, you can clearly see the benefit of the increased bitrate of the GH2, which actually took my breath away. The only thing that's bugging me at the moment is that even with all the settings dialed down on the GH2, i still find it MUCH to contrasty out of the camera. I wish there was a way to dial it down even further.

It's interesting to see how much more sensitive to light Nostalgia is over Smooth, and even more so over Cinema. But i find that although they clip to white very gracefully, the opposite is happening at the black end. The blacks clip much too quickly for me and they are just too dark in general, even if it's not hitting 0 IRE.

No color correction has gone on any of these clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHMfegii95Y&hd=1

Oedipax
12-20-2011, 06:45 PM
I look forward to checking out the test but I have to ask - why the kae 65mbps GOP3 patch of all things? It was great for its time but driftwood's GOP1 hacks have long since surpassed it.

PaPa
12-20-2011, 06:48 PM
I look forward to checking out the test but I have to ask - why the kae 65mbps GOP3 patch of all things? It was great for its time but driftwood's GOP1 hacks have long since surpassed it.

Yeah, but i don't want to blitz through cards that fast, and storage space. There also must be a point where the file size outweigh the benefits of the higher bitrate.

plus, my cards at 30MBps so i don't think it can support those speeds.

Sage
12-20-2011, 06:58 PM
kae is pre AQ - there is a cost..
"The blacks clip much too quickly for me and they are just too dark in general"

PaPa
12-20-2011, 07:05 PM
Sage, you mind expanding a little bit about what you just said? In the Ptool that i had, i used Kae's settings but i raised my AQ to either 3 or 4.

Kholi
12-20-2011, 07:21 PM
PaPa, which 30mb/s Cards do you have? I have Sandisk 30mb/s Cards and they are plenty enough for Quantum V2, I imagine the Driftwood patches around 100 would be what you'd want to use to span and save card space.

At 16gb I get about 1Gb per minute, but I'm used to that shooting ratio from RED so it's not as big of a deal to me. What is a bit hard is only having 4 minute takes, no spanning, so I need to get 95mb/s cards asap.

Edit: By the way, you may have pushed me back to using Nostalgic. It's warm overall, but just looks better than the rest of the modes to my eyes. thanks for doing that.

reem12
12-20-2011, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the test Papa. I liked smooth cause the whites looked like they rolled off better than the other modes. Also I'm not sure if your using stock lens, but I'm sure you know that a canon fd lens will lower contrast and flatten out the look a little more if thats what your looking for.

Cosimo Bullo
12-20-2011, 08:00 PM
Papa, you were one of the greats with the GH1, man!!!! Come on!, you gotta try the best of the GOP1 stuff for the GH2!!!!

PaPa
12-20-2011, 08:04 PM
Lol I never owned a gh1

I used a nikon 24 f2

Kholi
12-20-2011, 08:07 PM
Papa, you were one of the greats with the GH1, man!!!! Come on!, you gotta try the best of the GOP1 stuff for the GH2!!!!

You meant Pappas. Michael Pappas. Haha.

jeree
12-20-2011, 08:09 PM
You meant Pappas. Michael Pappas. Hahahttp://www.ovirfh9384.info/images/2.jpg
LOL that's what i was thinking also xD

Cosimo Bullo
12-20-2011, 08:12 PM
(Also, btw, off the cuff, the GH2 looked best in the better light/overexposed tests, and the AF100 better in the low light stuff)

Cosimo Bullo
12-20-2011, 08:13 PM
Whoops! Sorry, man. I did mean pappas!!!! Owe you a beer.

PaPa
12-20-2011, 08:30 PM
Kholi. What are you doing to avoid the high contrast darks?

Kholi
12-20-2011, 08:49 PM
Kholi. What are you doing to avoid the high contrast darks?

5DtoRGB. It is a must, my friend. It sounds weird, but it works, and it works very very well.

Try it out, do some comparisons of course!

PaPa
12-20-2011, 08:54 PM
sigh, more research time. I've been doing nothing but for days now lol.

PaPa
12-20-2011, 09:08 PM
THAT WORKED LIKE A FCK&*g charm,. That was the missing step. Takes a little while to transcode, but everyone needs to do this, and donate.

Jaime Valles
12-20-2011, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the test PaPa. Based on my own testing, I like Nostalgia best, with all the settings at -2. I dig the warmth of the image.

Kholi
12-20-2011, 09:23 PM
Thanks for the test PaPa. Based on my own testing, I like Nostalgia best, with all the settings at -2. I dig the warmth of the image.

I'm going back to Nostalgia and redoing some tests.

By the way, Jaime, good to see you hanging around again!

Kholi
12-20-2011, 09:26 PM
THAT WORKED LIKE A FCK&*g charm,. That was the missing step. Takes a little while to transcode, but everyone needs to do this, and donate.

Isaac Brody is the one that tipped me on to that. It was the last thing I needed to push me over the edge on the GH2. Once you roll through 5DtoRGB it's a done deal, man.

Now, all you have to do is try Quantum V2 Hack. :D

PaPa
12-20-2011, 09:31 PM
if i do that im going ot have to invest in a slew of cards lol.
right now i own 2 Sandisk Extreme 30MB/s class 10 16 gig

Kholi
12-20-2011, 09:33 PM
if i do that im going ot have to invest in a slew of cards lol.
right now i own 2 Sandisk Extreme 30MB/s class 10 16 gig

Just test it out and see what you find. I have two of the same cards, haven't had to buy anymore. They offload so fast.

I could see investing in maybe two more for a feature or getting three 95mb/s cards instead.

But, at least try it out and let us know if you see a difference.

You can always go back to the other one, just save it.

Cory Braun
12-20-2011, 09:37 PM
5DtoRGB. It is a must, my friend. It sounds weird, but it works, and it works very very well.

Try it out, do some comparisons of course!

What's the benefit of using 5DtoRGB?

PaPa
12-20-2011, 09:42 PM
What's the benefit?

This is the benefit:

Before

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2091/before5dtorgb.jpg

After
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8580/after5dtorgb.jpg

Kholi
12-20-2011, 09:43 PM
What's the benefit?

This is the benefit:

Before

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2091/before5dtorgb.jpg

After
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8580/after5dtorgb.jpg

Oh... so gravy.

Cory, also, the 18-85 was out at the moment. I havent' forgotten.

HVXguy
12-20-2011, 09:58 PM
GH2 looks much better. Why can't Panasonic get it's shit together and give us GH2 picture quality with AF100 features?

Kholi
12-20-2011, 10:12 PM
Papa what setting(s) are on the stills you just posted?

PaPa
12-20-2011, 10:16 PM
Those are nostalgia, guessing between f4 and 5.6.

Kholi
12-20-2011, 10:19 PM
Those are nostalgia, guessing between f4 and 5.6.

Yeaaahpp.. Thanks man. I figured. GOing back to Nostalgia.

I think the Smooth profile might be best for a non 5DtoRGB workflow, but I never factored 5DtoRGB in, and should've been testing more profiles WITH 5DtoRGB.

Cory Braun
12-20-2011, 10:39 PM
What's the benefit?

This is the benefit:

Before

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2091/before5dtorgb.jpg

After
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8580/after5dtorgb.jpg

Sick, definitely going to start using it.


Oh... so gravy.

Cory, also, the 18-85 was out at the moment. I havent' forgotten.

Thanks man, appreciate it.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 03:20 AM
What's the benefit?

This is the benefit:

Before



After

I cant seem to see the 2nd pic... :(

same thing also happens on the af100 footage when i convert it from 5D to RGB

a quote from thomas worth:

"I've noticed that the MTS importer in After Effects, for example, will import clips as broadcast range, not full range H.264. This may be appropriate in most cases since I suspect most cameras shoot broadcast range (16-235 in 8 bit terms), but I've noticed clipped highlights in some files. My feeling is that if there is indeed information up there (above 235), it should be retained. However, this can break compatibility with After Effects and Premiere. I guess I'll add an option that allows you to force the transcode at either broadcast range (16-235) or full range (0-255)."

from my old post:
3835838359
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?258734-5DtoRGB-Transcode-GH1-Works-AF101-Fails&p=2410492&viewfull=1#post2410492

maarek
12-21-2011, 05:03 AM
That is kinda odd as the Canon 5d/7d shoot also at 0-255 levels and they display perfectly on Premiere and After Effects. So what's different with the GH2? Is this a mac thing?

PaPa
12-21-2011, 07:04 AM
No, I'm on a PC. I just find it too contrasty. So the 5DtoRGB helps flatten the image out the way i like it.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 07:29 AM
That is kinda odd as the Canon 5d/7d shoot also at 0-255 levels and they display perfectly on Premiere and After Effects. So what's different with the GH2? Is this a mac thing?its most likely the mts thing. i think this can also possibly happen on mac too.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 07:31 AM
No, I'm on a PC. I just find it too contrasty. So the 5DtoRGB helps flatten the image out the way i like it.
what i do on my af100 footages to get the same 5Drgb result is
32bit and adjust white output to .85

dcloud
12-21-2011, 08:02 AM
ok im trying this on my gh2...

does the 5D rgb only work on hacked footages or nonhacked as well?

PaPa
12-21-2011, 08:23 AM
That's a good question, but i would assume it works on both. It's just you might get the best results from the higher bitrate, but of course, more noisy cause there is less compression.

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 08:28 AM
It is so very awesome to read this, just when I now finally have my GH2 in my hands.

5DtoRGB with Pro features is Mac only, so no batching for me. Does anyone know if there will be a windows pro version? For testing it over Neoscene itīll suffice for now.

I will try to upload frame grabs comparing Neoscene with 5D later.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 08:37 AM
ok downloaded the wrong version of 5D to RGB. i should have downloaded the 32 bit version. blerg.

yes it works even on a non hacked version..

dcloud
12-21-2011, 08:55 AM
anybody using mac here?
id like to know if native FCP transcoding is similar to 5DtoRGB's

Kholi
12-21-2011, 08:59 AM
anybody using mac here?
id like to know if native FCP transcoding is similar to 5DtoRGB's

Miles apart.

Native FCP Transcode looks like garbage in comparison to 5DtoRGB. It isn't just lifting the gamma, it's smoothing a ton of chroma issues out, balancing the image.

I didn't believe it, but I went back and forth between FCP L&T and 5DtoRGB a few times, even adjusted contrast to match. It's not the same image.

Remember, not all compressors are created equal, and not all compression schemes either.

ProRes from the Ninja doesn't look like ProRes from my computer.

PaPa
12-21-2011, 09:10 AM
More findings!

Comparing AF100 and GH2 at ISO 200, "properly" exposed for maximum appearance. AF100 was black balanced. Both cameras at Tungsten preset WB. I should also mention that all the GH2 files went through 5DtoRGB.

Same Nikon 35mm lens on both cameras. Aperture went between 2.8 and 4 allowing the brightest parts of skin to barely hit 75-80 IRE on all film modes.

Comparing image quality, skin tone, compression artifacts, noise and posterizing.

I bounced a 1K tungsten lamp off of the ceiling on full flood and made sure that it hit the back wall slightly to create that smooth gradation that we all know and love to look at the posterizing. You can see it on the upper left portion of the image against the white wall.

All GH2 images were given minor tweaks in Saturation to match the AF100 as best as possible. All Curve images were given the exact same curve to see how the codecs respond to increasing the contrast in the image.

AF100:
Detail and V Detail at -6
Chroma -5
CineD gamma
Norm 2 matrix

GH2:
Quantum V2 patch
Nostalgic
Cinema
Smooth
All at -2 settings.

( To go back and forth between images for best comparisons, right click and create a new tab so you can tab back and forth to pixel peep lol ) Or just click on the link underneath the image as imageshack doesn't allow full rez postings ( or maybe that's DVX )

AF100

Clean:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7433/af100clean.jpg

link: http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7433/af100clean.jpg

Curved:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5527/af100curve.jpg

link: http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5527/af100curve.jpg

Clean Crop:

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5364/af100cleancrop.jpg

link: http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5364/af100cleancrop.jpg

Curve Crop:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7316/af100curvecrop.jpg

link: http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7316/af100curvecrop.jpg



GH2

Smooth Clean:

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4170/gh2smoothclean.jpg

link: http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4170/gh2smoothclean.jpg

Smooth Curve:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3055/gh2smoothcurve.jpg

link: http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3055/gh2smoothcurve.jpg

Smooth Clean Crop:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2553/gh2smoothcleancrop.jpg

link: http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2553/gh2smoothcleancrop.jpg

Smooth Curve Crop:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6555/gh2smoothcurvecrop.jpg

link: http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6555/gh2smoothcurvecrop.jpg


Nostalgic Clean:

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2269/gh2nostalgicclean.jpg

link: http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2269/gh2nostalgicclean.jpg

Nostalgic Curve:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/135/gh2nostalgiccurve.jpg

link: http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/135/gh2nostalgiccurve.jpg

Nostalgic Clean Crop:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7761/gh2nostalgiccleancrop.jpg

link: http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7761/gh2nostalgiccleancrop.jpg

Nostalgic Curve Crop:

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/9629/gh2nostalgiccurvecrop.jpg

link: http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/9629/gh2nostalgiccurvecrop.jpg


Cinema Clean:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2732/gh2cinemaclean.jpg

link: http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2732/gh2cinemaclean.jpg

Cinema Curve:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3018/gh2cinemacurve.jpg

link: http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3018/gh2cinemacurve.jpg

Cinema Clean Crop:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6003/gh2cinemacleancrop.jpg

link: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6003/gh2cinemacleancrop.jpg

Cinema Curve Crop:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2272/gh2cinemacurvecrop.jpg

link: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2272/gh2cinemacurvecrop.jpg

dcloud
12-21-2011, 09:17 AM
Miles apart.

Native FCP Transcode looks like garbage in comparison to 5DtoRGB. It isn't just lifting the gamma, it's smoothing a ton of chroma issues out, balancing the image.

I didn't believe it, but I went back and forth between FCP L&T and 5DtoRGB a few times, even adjusted contrast to match. It's not the same image.

Remember, not all compressors are created equal, and not all compression schemes either.

ProRes from the Ninja doesn't look like ProRes from my computer.wow that could also be another factor on these cameras tests on why af100 looks video-y to some.

Kholi
12-21-2011, 09:25 AM
More findings!

Comparing AF100 and GH2 at ISO 200, "properly" exposed for maximum appearance. AF100 was black balanced. Both cameras at Tungsten preset WB.

Comparing image quality, skin tone, compression artifacts, noise and posterizing.

Nice. 200 ISO indoors is lot of darn light!

Post uuupp.


wow that could also be another factor on these cameras tests on why af100 looks video-y to some.

I would be interested in seeing some AF100 5DtoRGB footage, but my issue with AF100 footage was never really color (although it's not pleasant there, either), it's been how it resolves detail, or the lack there of. I dunno what the camera's doing to the image, but it is rarely ever pleasant to look at. However, again, I'd be interested in seeing what happens when you 5DtoRGB the Af100 footage.

PaPa
12-21-2011, 09:36 AM
It appears as though nostalgic has the highest level of noise which helps break up the banding but only very very slightly.

dtjohns1
12-21-2011, 09:39 AM
I find it so sad that the GH2 gives a more resolved image than the AF-100 lol. I swear the cam is a little beast. Good test. I'm finding cinema mode is best for indoor/lowlight or situations where you want to intentionally under expose, smooth is good for outdoor because it's the best at perserving highlights (although I don't understand how it does this better than cinema because it seems to be more contrasty) and nostalgia is ok but the over warming of the image kills it sometimes for me. What are your thoughts on film modes?

Kholi
12-21-2011, 09:40 AM
It appears as though nostalgic has the highest level of noise which helps break up the banding but only very very slightly.

Man, thanks for doing something with an actual human in it. Greatly appreciated.

Which one do you prefer right now? Nostalgic or Smooth? It looks like Nostalgic's grabbing a tiny bit more in the highlights, and opening up the lows a smidge. Is it worth it in exchange for the noise?

I'm curious as to what either of the profiles do when you hit say 800 or 1000 ISO, as well.

PaPa
12-21-2011, 09:46 AM
You're welcome! Took about an hour lol.

I don't find tests of objects and flowers very useful, although they may be fun to watch. The only thing i care about are humans because quite frankly, when i watch something, that's the only real point of reference i have to tell how natural things look.

Man, i'm having a difficult time figuring out whicih one i like best.

Without further testing, i can almost say with 100% certainty, that if we raised the ISO, the added gain would definitely help dither the posterizing. But with the expense of much more added noise because of the low compression.

I don't know which way to think? Either both of these cameras are very noisy, or the stock af100 codec does a hell of a job compared to something of much higher bitrate. lol.

I am up in the air as to which mode i like hte best. I find that there is something about smooth and nostalgic that makes the lighter values too bright. Cinema flesh tones are generally, from my experience, darker and more rich while stil appearing smooth which we get a bit more here with the Cinema film mode, but at the expense of a little more posterizing and being weary of overexposing highlights.

hmmmm. much thinking to do.

And now that i look back on these images, I'm wishing that i took one of my little 150 fresnels and just spotted it on the wall somewhere to make a blown area as well, would have been good added information.

Kholi
12-21-2011, 09:46 AM
Also, weird, with 5DtoRGB Cinema mode looks a lot more pleasing, as well. Dunno why I didn't try all of this, just didn't even cross my mind that the program would change how you work with the film modes.

Good stuff.

From running around with the GH2 in Smooth, my conclusion was under-exposing anything important more than a quarter (maybe half) was not a good thing. Overexposing seemed to be the best way to go at it. If I didn't have go get ready to go out of town I'd go and do this stuff m'self. Grrrr~

PaPa
12-21-2011, 09:59 AM
Hopefully some find this useful and continue to look into these types of tests.
I want to try something similar with a lower bitrate so that i get more than 16 minutes out of a 16 gig card lol.

Kholi
12-21-2011, 10:03 AM
Hopefully some find this useful and continue to look into these types of tests.
I want to try something similar with a lower bitrate so that i get more than 16 minutes out of a 16 gig card lol.

Oh now that you mention the hack and bitrate, did you find a difference between the Kae patch and the Quantum patch? I noticed a subtle enough one in noise pattern to warrant the switch, but I had to go back to a previous location to test it out. Dirty test.

If I run across a patch that'll get you what you want I'll link you to it.

HHL
12-21-2011, 10:11 AM
GREAT information here Papa and Kholi! This level of information is what makes DVXUser one of the best indie resources in the world! :) Thanks for sharing!

Kholi
12-21-2011, 10:18 AM
Oh and for those grabbing 5DtoRGB right now, Thomas Worth (Rarevision) said that he's removed the Gamma option from the program entirely, but I didn't get a word back if it's now defaulted to a 1.8.

I'm still using the prior version of 5DtoRGB, but will grab the newest one when I get to the office and see what it's doing.

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 10:42 AM
Carp!

I was just about to ask, where this option might be...damned.

I have the following options in my brand new 5DtoRGB now:

Output Format:
- Uncompressed 10bit 422 (v210)
- Apple Prores 422 (and HQ, LT and Proxy)
- Avid DNxHD

Decoding Matrix:
- ITU-R BT.709
- ITU-R BT.601

Luminance Range:
- Full Range
- Broadcast Range

Postprocessing:
- None
- Technicolor Cinestyle

Start Timecode


Anything new for old version users? And any suggestions?

Thanks!

Edit: I forgot Decoding Matrix, updated the post.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 10:56 AM
Its not there.. It doesnt have the gamma 1.8 which does the job

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 11:17 AM
Ok, besides the gamma my first findings are devastating for NeoScene (I still have it for my GH1 and thatīs why Iīm interested in its (dis)advantages:

Even though thereīs no real visual difference detectable on 100% and in RGB, when zoomed-in thereīs quite heavy jagged edging on the red channel.
That doesnīt occur both on the original MTS and the 5DtoRGB (uncompressed). I am not using the latest version of NeoScene as it would have cost me to upgrade.
In fact I couldnīt detect any difference between MTS and 5DtoRGB, on neither the red channel or RGB.

The reason I was testing the red channel was because of whatīs on Rarevisions website. But I guess the GH2 simply has no issue with reds but Canons do?

So, without the gamma option I can just stick to my mts files. :undecided

Kholi
12-21-2011, 11:42 AM
Hmmm... maybe Thomas can give us an older version of 5DtoRGB.

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 12:03 PM
Ha! Iīve found the old version I used quite a while ago in June. Itīs v1.5.3 (32 Bit sadly) but it has the gamma setting.

And I tested but the file comes out not the tiniest bit flatter than the original. I am doing something wrong, Iīm sure of it. But what?

I used: Uncompressed 10but 422, BT.709, Gamma 1,8

Is that version too old maybe and the gamma adjustment wasnīt properly implemented?

Oedipax
12-21-2011, 12:08 PM
Maybe try 601 instead of 709.

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Maybe try 601 instead of 709.
no difference.

Should I maybe output to prores, or quicktime as prores is not supported in this version.

Kholi
12-21-2011, 12:32 PM
no difference.

Should I maybe output to prores, or quicktime as prores is not supported in this version.

Post some before and after stills. This may be what THomas was referring to, that if you're using CS5 then it's not as much of a difference versus using ProRes/Quicktime formats. For me, in FCP, it's a huge different. If you're in FCP, then yes, you should be using ProRes 422HQ (or something around that).

PaPa
12-21-2011, 12:36 PM
no difference.

Should I maybe output to prores, or quicktime as prores is not supported in this version.

I use DNxHD at 220 with the same settings you posted and i got these results. I'm on pc however.

Thomas Worth
12-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Tell me what you guys want. I have the code open in front of me right now on the PC, so if it's something easy I can throw in I'll do it.

Kholi
12-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Tell me what you guys want. I have the code open in front of me right now on the PC, so if it's something easy I can throw in I'll do it.

Free Version:

1. Keep 1.8 Flagging Option but default it to 1.8 so people don't mess with it.
2. Default the Decoding MAtrix to 709
3. Add a "don't show this message again" box for the warning when dragging and dropping .MTS files.

Paid Version
1. Add a preference pane that allows you to setup what you want as soon as you open the program, that way you don't ever have to change it. (if this already isn't there. I'm broke so I can't get the batch version yet, been one by oneing it lol)


Also, Thomas, what do you think about adding a denoise step in a future version that's a bit more expensive? Something that can do what Denoiser MB Does when you drop the Luma Offset and raise the Chroma offset. It literally just removes the ugly chroma mess and leaves the noise, which in my eyes looks sick and can be denoised further. That would reduce the headache of having to denoise chroma before going to grading, then doing it one final time to balance the overall dB.

Sorry, had to throw that in!

Thomas Worth
12-21-2011, 04:05 PM
Free Version:
1. Keep 1.8 Flagging Option but default it to 1.8 so people don't mess with it.


Let me explain why I removed this.

The flagging puts the burden of gamma correction on the NLE. If it sees that there's a gamma flag, it will use this to apply additional gamma correction. I don't like the idea of the NLE monkeying around with the gamma after it's already been transcoded perfectly, so this has been removed. Plus, there's no way I can guarantee that the gamma will look right in one program vs another.

However, if you want to mimic the 1.8 setting, you can use a GLSL shader. It is literally one line of code, and can be loaded automatically by 5DtoRGB. You can apply any gamma setting you want during transcoding, and this is done prior to the encoding step so the quality will be better than trying to do it in the NLE. Instructions on how to do this can be found in the manual.




Also, Thomas, what do you think about adding a denoise step in a future version

Already looking into this!

Kholi
12-21-2011, 04:08 PM
Let me explain why I removed this.

The flagging puts the burden of gamma correction on the NLE. If it sees that there's a gamma flag, it will use this to apply additional gamma correction. I don't like the idea of the NLE monkeying around with the gamma after it's already been transcoded perfectly, so this has been removed. Plus, there's no way I can guarantee that the gamma will look right in one program vs another.

However, if you want to mimic the 1.8 setting, you can use a GLSL shader. It is literally one line of code, and can be loaded automatically by 5DtoRGB. You can apply any gamma setting you want during transcoding, and this is done prior to the encoding step so the quality will be better than trying to do it in the NLE. Instructions on how to do this can be found in the manual.

I need to dig deeper into this, plan on doin a workflow post for my blog and this will help.

Thanks.




Already looking into this!

Fan-freakin'-tastic. Understandable that it will add more time to the transcode, I'm willing to bet that it'll be a lot less stressful than constantly spitting out generations of files. Key for me, personally, would just be the ability to convert the chroma to something that looks like luma, but of course incremental sliders and fine adjustments for those that want more out of it. I do NOT expect (or need) Neat Video depth of noise reduction.

I imagine it would require creating a panel for a video viewer so that you know exactly what you're getting... but definitely worth paying for.

One last question: DPX is fantastic, it's exactly what I'd be going to for a DaVinci grade. I'm curious as to why there isn't a 10-bit Uncompressed option? Does it make sense with formats like DPX and DNX, ProRes4444 already loaded to have an Uncompressed option at all? I don't need it, but was curious.

Oedipax
12-21-2011, 04:31 PM
Hey Thomas,

I read the 5DtoRGB Batch manual entry on the GLSL Fragment Shader, but I'm still lost as to what concrete steps I would take to actually execute it on a transcode. Is there somewhere I'm supposed to be plugging this into the 5DtoRGB app? Or is it more like a command I'm running at the system level, from Terminal, and it's acting more like a LUT on my footage? I've poked around a bit in the .app folder and opened up the .plist file but I don't see anywhere to add a GLSL command.

I think a lot of us were happy with what we were getting from the 1.8 gamma setting on older versions of 5DtoRGB so if there's a way to replicate that behavior in the new version it would be nice.

Edit: Okay, I see now the instructions were a bit above where I was looking, in the program options section. I think I've got the gist of it now.

Thomas Worth
12-21-2011, 04:37 PM
I read the 5DtoRGB Batch manual entry on the GLSL Fragment Shader, but I'm still lost as to what concrete steps I would take to actually execute it on a transcode. Is there somewhere I'm supposed to be plugging this into the 5DtoRGB app? Or is it more like a command I'm running at the system level, from Terminal, and it's acting more like a LUT on my footage? I've poked around a bit in the .app folder and opened up the .plist file but I don't see anywhere to add a GLSL command.

You add the line of GLSL to a text file. Save it as "default.glsl" into the same directory that contains the files you want to transcode. It will automatically be loaded once you start the transcode.

You can also load other shaders using the "Import" option.




I think a lot of us were happy with what we were getting from the 1.8 gamma setting on older versions of 5DtoRGB so if there's a way to replicate that behavior in the new version it would be nice.
All of this will be obsolete soon...

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 05:41 PM
I use DNxHD at 220 with the same settings you posted and i got these results. I'm on pc however.
I need to get the DNxHD codec. I tested it using QT Animation and it worked, but that transcodes really slowly.

But now of course I will be going to look at the manual and how to apply 1,8 gamma via scriptfile.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 05:51 PM
You add the line of GLSL to a text file. Save it as "default.glsl" into the same directory that contains the files you want to transcode. It will automatically be loaded once you start the transcode.

You can also load other shaders using the "Import" option.



All of this will be obsolete soon...hi thomas. could you explain further the 1.8 gamma? atleast i want to be able to replicate the 1.8 gamma on my NLE on the newer version of 5dtorgb. since if i import plain mts and the new version it looks basically the same.

oh when can we have a windows paid version?

EDIT: ok after some coffee i get what youre saying now... so is there a way for the 5DtoRGB to convert the file with the 1.8gamma baked in and without the flagging? the new version converted files looks too contrasty and i dont know how to bring the gamma back

dcloud
12-21-2011, 06:22 PM
Nice. 200 ISO indoors is lot of darn light!

Post uuupp.



I would be interested in seeing some AF100 5DtoRGB footage, but my issue with AF100 footage was never really color (although it's not pleasant there, either), it's been how it resolves detail, or the lack there of. I dunno what the camera's doing to the image, but it is rarely ever pleasant to look at. However, again, I'd be interested in seeing what happens when you 5DtoRGB the Af100 footage.

details wise, i do think its a compromise of moire vs. details and af100 took the less moire road. and for me its ok. the difference is not even discernible to the audience.

heres my test on the 5dtorgb on my af100 footage
BEFORE
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38358
(http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38358)AFTER
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38359

@PaPa
Nice tests! im surprised how unsaturated the GH2 footages are. I cant remember getting that low saturation on my GH2 :\
nostalgic looks like a warm version of cinema. smooth is a bit more contrastier but i bet it will save in highlight roll offs.

JackBayer
12-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Post some before and after stills. This may be what THomas was referring to, that if you're using CS5 then it's not as much of a difference versus using ProRes/Quicktime formats. For me, in FCP, it's a huge different. If you're in FCP, then yes, you should be using ProRes 422HQ (or something around that).

Here are three grabs, original MTS, QT Animation and DNxHD. Only Animation shows the jump in gamma.
(Iso 800, F2,0 on a 50mm Minolta MD Rokkor)
Here a dl-link to the full size PNGs I rendered out: Link (http://www.frontside.de/dls/5dtests.rar)

DNxHD
45271

MTS
45272

QT Animation
45273

Iīm on a PC and this old version of 5D has no Prores anyways. As transcoding everything to animation is silly (slow and 10x bigger than original) I will look into the code line option tomorrow and that then with the new version of 5D.

EDIT: Maybe this thread should be moved or divided or tidied up`, as the headline wonīt tell anyone that weīre talking 5DtoRGb in here?

Thomas Worth
12-21-2011, 06:44 PM
hi thomas. could you explain further the 1.8 gamma? atleast i want to be able to replicate the 1.8 gamma on my NLE on the newer version of 5dtorgb. since if i import plain mts and the new version it looks basically the same.

Copy the following line into a text file and save it as "default.glsl" in the same folder as the clips you want to transcode:


gl_FragColor.rgb = pow(gl_FragColor.rgb,vec3(1.0/0.818));

Now, see that 0.818? That's the value you want to adjust to change the output gamma. This works like the Gamma Correction effect in Final Cut Pro, except it works in 10 bit right on the GPU before compression occurs.



oh when can we have a windows paid version?

It's being worked on. I haven't forgotten about Windows users!

Sage
12-21-2011, 06:47 PM
Nice. I dig your work.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 07:27 PM
@thomas
hmm 1.5.6b seems to be buggy for me... and i cant seem to get the default.glsl to work..
1.5.4 works well here though!
(its weird premiere sees the converted clip is 1 sec smaller than my mts file... AE doesnt)

after some coffee i get what youre saying now...
so is there a way for the 5DtoRGB to convert the file with the 1.8gamma baked in and without the flagging? the new version converted files looks too contrasty and i dont know how to bring the gamma back

or to put it shortly, we love the 1.5.4's gamma 1.8 look. we would love to have it to look consistent when imported throughout different NLEs.

PaPa
12-21-2011, 07:28 PM
details wise, i do think its a compromise of moire vs. details and af100 took the less moire road. and for me its ok. the difference is not even discernible to the audience.

heres my test on the 5dtorgb on my af100 footage
BEFORE
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38358
(http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38358)AFTER
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=38359

@PaPa
Nice tests! im surprised how unsaturated the GH2 footages are. I cant remember getting that low saturation on my GH2 :\
nostalgic looks like a warm version of cinema. smooth is a bit more contrastier but i bet it will save in highlight roll offs.


As i said in my post, i desaturated the clean's very very slightly to better match what the AF100 produced. But that's it. So i consider it fair game.

dcloud
12-21-2011, 07:35 PM
As i said in my post, i desaturated the clean's very very slightly to better match what the AF100 produced. But that's it. So i consider it fair game.Oh i see. I guess the af100 would be easier to match to the GH2 that way. thanks for that info :)

Thomas Worth
12-21-2011, 07:53 PM
@thomas
hmm 1.5.6b seems to be buggy for me... and i cant seem to get the default.glsl to work..
1.5.4 works well here though!

Sorry, I should have mentioned this earlier. The shaders only work with the Mac version. I'll add this feature to the Windows version soon.

Jaime Valles
12-21-2011, 09:18 PM
By the way, Jaime, good to see you hanging around again!
Thanks, Kholi! I'm back. Planning a top-secret feature film to be shot on my GH2, so I'm learning all I can about the hack and such. I can't really make heads or tails out of the Personal View site, so I'm very glad that all this info is here on DVXUser.

Anyhoo, back on topic. How 'bout that 5DtoRGB, huh?

JackBayer
12-22-2011, 02:53 AM
Sorry, I should have mentioned this earlier. The shaders only work with the Mac version. I'll add this feature to the Windows version soon.
That explaines why I canīt get any results.

PaPa
12-22-2011, 08:55 AM
going to try some of the other hacks and compare. Need to get a lower bitrate cause these cards are filling up fast.

bitcrusher
12-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Just bought the mac version on the itunes store. Best $50 bucks spent in a while!

My dream would be some improvements in workflow-
Automatic TC rewrite A way to automatically re-write the TC to something like free run for all the clips in the batch. -just give the Start TC.
Proxy encoding - one clip in 444 the other in LT with the option to save in two places.
TC window burn
Project based work flow.

Something totally out there: The ability to use a audio track as the TC. That way we could feed TC into the audio mic in (you would have to attenuate the TC signal quite a bit so some hardware is required) That would solve a lot of 2 system audio headaches.

I would pay extra for those futures. Not having any time code in the DSLR world is a big headache for me.

Kholi
12-28-2011, 11:27 PM
Nice. More suggestions. I'd add I'd also be willing to pay more for the program (obviously) for the updates. Pro Version? With Noise reduction? Yes.


Just bought the mac version on the itunes store. Best $50 bucks spent in a while!
Something totally out there: The ability to use a audio track as the TC. That way we could feed TC into the audio mic in (you would have to attenuate the TC signal quite a bit so some hardware is required) That would solve a lot of 2 system audio headaches.

I would pay extra for those futures. Not having any time code in the DSLR world is a big headache for me.

Especially like this. I hate syncing sound and trying everything I can to avoid it. The more automated the better...

bitcrusher
12-29-2011, 01:48 AM
Oh yeah I forgot custom file naming.

<custom name>0001.mov ect......

Tarkovsky
12-29-2011, 03:24 AM
Just downloaded 5DtoRGB for testing.
5DtoRGB can't seem to open GH2 m2ts file. I only got it to work by renaming all the m2ts to mts. Is this the workflow?

Kholi
12-29-2011, 10:15 AM
Strange... Why are your file names m2ts and not mts to begin with?

Tarkovsky
12-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Beats me... It has always been m2ts. Perhaps the avccam software that I use to copy the sd card to my Mac changes the file extension from mts to m2ts.

Barry_Green
12-29-2011, 12:48 PM
Beats me... It has always been m2ts. Perhaps the avccam software that I use to copy the sd card to my Mac changes the file extension from mts to m2ts.
Indeed it does.

metavox
12-29-2011, 02:10 PM
I also tried 5DtoRGB and the converted files look far superior to the mts-files (though about 10x bigger). But I have a serious problem which makes it impossible for me to use 5DtoRGB properly: I'm a GH1 owner and since the GH1 doesn't record 24p natively but wraps it into 29.97 interlaced, I get these weird "interlaced lines" (don't know what they are called, but you get what I mean). Is there something I can do about it? I'm using CS5.5, PP to edit, AE to remove 3:2 pulldown (which of course doesn't work after conversion).

PaPa
01-05-2012, 11:35 AM
Another test i posted in the AF100 section to clear up some misconceptions:

AF100 - 24mm lens F2.8 ( focused on the white fluffy thing on the desk )
CineD
Norm 1
detail at -5
chroma at -5

AF100

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1665/fullpl.jpg

Link: http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1665/fullpl.jpg


400% Zooms

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1204/af100close01.jpg

Link: http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1204/af100close01.jpg


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1276/af100close02.jpg

Link: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1276/af100close02.jpg

GH2 in Cinema Mode with Quantam V2 and 5DtoRGB ( -2 -2 -1 -2 )

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6276/cinemal.jpg

Link: http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/6276/cinemal.jpg


400% Zooms

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/2421/cinemaclose1.jpg

Link: http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/2421/cinemaclose1.jpg


http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4065/cinemaclose2.jpg

Link: http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4065/cinemaclose2.jpg


Smooth mode ( -2 -2 -1 -2 )

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5775/smoothl.jpg

Link: http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5775/smoothl.jpg


400% zooms

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3812/smoothclose1.jpg

Link: http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3812/smoothclose1.jpg


http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/1419/smoothclose2.jpg

Link: http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/1419/smoothclose2.jpg

Lpowell
01-05-2012, 12:49 PM
I'm a GH1 owner and since the GH1 doesn't record 24p natively but wraps it into 29.97 interlaced, I get these weird "interlaced lines" (don't know what they are called, but you get what I mean). Is there something I can do about it?
If you'd like to try a GH1 Native 24p patch, I'd recommend either Blackout-Powell or Max Latitude patches, linked in my signature below:

Kholi
01-11-2012, 01:55 PM
Finally got my 5DtoRGB Batch program... just wish the 1.8 settings were still there. Messing with shaders is giving me trouble and I don't understand that enough to actually do it properly... blerg..

Tim Joy
01-11-2012, 02:22 PM
I got the batch ver too and I was like, where is the 'bake in gamma' settings ? Any insight there.

Kholi
01-11-2012, 02:48 PM
I emailed them to find out, waiting on a response. The shader works now but it's turning my footage black and white... which would be cool if I needed black and white footage... lol.

mainstreetprod
01-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Deleted

Daniel G
01-11-2012, 08:49 PM
Hi Thomas, thanks for your work. Are you still taking suggestions?

I like the way you manage the timecode (in fact you added a specific request I made earlier that made my life easier and my workflow possible, THANKS AGAIN!), there's only one step that I have to manually fix after the transcode, and that's the Reel info. If I could somehow provide that info with a command line argument or maybe just the program took it from the file's parent folder name... I would be golden.

I'll try to pitch my boss to buy the new version but the 5d2-shot feature we're working on will be reaching final cut in about one or two months, so I'm not sure I should touch anything now. Will the newer version give me more quality to generate my online files or are the changes centered on avchd? Has the CLI syntax changed since 1.5.3b?

Thanks!

Thomas Worth
01-12-2012, 04:24 AM
I got the batch ver too and I was like, where is the 'bake in gamma' settings ? Any insight there.
There was (or at least I thought there was) a good reason to get rid of the gamma options. However, after getting lots of feedback on this I didn't realize how popular the gamma correction feature was. So, it will be coming back with the ability to specify any gamma value you want. It works like the gamma correction filter in Final Cut Pro. You can specify a gamma value (i.e. 0.818, 1.22) and it will be applied during transcoding. This will be baked in, so any application you use to open the file shouldn't meddle with it. This will be coming in the next update and will be available free from the App Store as usual.


I like the way you manage the timecode (in fact you added a specific request I made earlier that made my life easier and my workflow possible, THANKS AGAIN!), there's only one step that I have to manually fix after the transcode, and that's the Reel info. If I could somehow provide that info with a command line argument or maybe just the program took it from the file's parent folder name... I would be golden.
File names will be written to the reel name field in the next update. Was that what you needed? Or was there something specific you needed to put into that field?


Has the CLI syntax changed since 1.5.3b?
Only to reflect the new options (luma range, post-processing). Other than that, it should be similar.

Shooter
01-12-2012, 02:48 PM
You may have to rename the program to something more "Generic" Thomas!

:happy:

Daniel G
01-12-2012, 04:03 PM
File names will be written to the reel name field in the next update. Was that what you needed? Or was there something specific you needed to put into that field?
File names will be fine for future red-style workflows but for this feature I need parent folder names and/or user input via CLI argument.

Thanks.

Daniel G
01-15-2012, 02:55 AM
The ability to resize the footage on output would also be huge. We could conform different sized footage to one project-wide common format, not only on framerate, like we already do, but also on size.

That could also enable a reduced output for proxy use, although I'm not a fan of this.

PaPa
01-15-2012, 05:19 AM
So is there now, or going to be a way to batch convert footage with gamma options? Tired of doing one file at a time, too time consuming.

dcloud
01-15-2012, 06:06 AM
wndows user here! :(

Zxander34
01-15-2012, 08:18 AM
The OP's post just reaffirms my liking of Smooth mode dialed down.

:Drogar-Happy(DBG): Thanks.

PaPa
01-15-2012, 08:38 AM
The OP's post just reaffirms my liking of Smooth mode dialed down.

:Drogar-Happy(DBG): Thanks.

welcome!

Kholi
01-15-2012, 10:04 AM
For Mac users, not sure about PC yet but definitely soon for Mac batch license users.

Chris Lawes
01-24-2012, 09:13 AM
I think I am among a large usergroup of Avid Media Composer + OS X users. I want to transcode all my GH2 footage to DNxHD, using the mac version of the program. Others have also said the same thing in my discussions. Any plans for implementing this soon Thomas?