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dishan
12-13-2011, 06:08 PM
Does anyone have any advice/recommendations for matching footage on the GH2 with a Canon?

I'm assuming I'll have to grade and adjust coloring in post, and obviously the Canon's wide shots will look softer (planning on using it more for bokeh-rific close ups, I guess), but is there a specific style I should be shooting with, picture profile, etc, that will make my post processing life a little bit easier?

Has anyone done this that can share their experiences with me? Thanks!

M. Gilden
12-13-2011, 08:12 PM
There's some good advice in threads like this one:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/474037-whats-best-way-correct-footage-2-different-cameras-so-they-match.html

B (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/474037-whats-best-way-correct-footage-2-different-cameras-so-they-match.html)ut nothing camera specific there. Would be useful to know if there is a particular workflow that works best on these cameras. It appears a lot of new Gh2 users also have at least one Canon, so perhaps there is a workflow experience to share.

Zxander34
12-13-2011, 08:33 PM
There's some good advice in threads like this one:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/474037-whats-best-way-correct-footage-2-different-cameras-so-they-match.html

B (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/474037-whats-best-way-correct-footage-2-different-cameras-so-they-match.html)ut nothing camera specific there. Would be useful to know if there is a particular workflow that works best on these cameras. It appears a lot of new Gh2 users also have at least one Canon, so perhaps there is a workflow experience to share.

I would also like to know this.

Zxander34
12-14-2011, 12:15 AM
I would love to pick up a $600 T2i to cover all of my DSLR bases. In fact, that would be superb.

So if anyone has any tips as to matching these it would be much appreciated.

mr bill
12-14-2011, 05:04 AM
I use neutral (sharpening off, contrast lowest, saturation -2) on my 60D and nostalgic (-2,0,0,-2) on my gh1's, and match manual kelvins on all cameras. I usually warm the canon stuff up slightly to match the GH1 footage, but it's reasonably subtle. Avids for post production.

I would imagine the higher bit-rate hack you use on the GH2, the more you'll see the difference between the 2 cameras..

M. Gilden
12-14-2011, 07:10 AM
Sounds reasonable, will experiment with similar settings.

I wonder how hard it would be to create a sort of GH2 picture profile using the Canon profile editor. I would imagine someone good with color matching could make a custom profile that would simplify this.

Zxander34
12-14-2011, 09:30 AM
I use neutral (sharpening off, contrast lowest, saturation -2) on my 60D and nostalgic (-2,0,0,-2) on my gh1's, and match manual kelvins on all cameras. I usually warm the canon stuff up slightly to match the GH1 footage, but it's reasonably subtle.

Thanks.

nigelbb
12-14-2011, 09:39 AM
Matching the colour profiles on both cameras is not so much of a deal. What is an issue is that the image on the Canons is so much softer & the extra resolution of the GH2 stands out if you cut between the cameras in a scene. That and the fact that the DoF will be different for the same aperture & equivalent lens e.g. Canon 5DII with 50mm lens at F/2.8 has a DoF of 2ft whereas the GH2 using a 25mm lens at F/2.8 for equivalent FoV has a Dof of 4ft. You can use the two cameras in the same project but not intercut in the same scene.

dishan
12-14-2011, 10:30 AM
Matching the colour profiles on both cameras is not so much of a deal. What is an issue is that the image on the Canons is so much softer & the extra resolution of the GH2 stands out if you cut between the cameras in a scene. That and the fact that the DoF will be different for the same aperture & equivalent lens e.g. Canon 5DII with 50mm lens at F/2.8 has a DoF of 2ft whereas the GH2 using a 25mm lens at F/2.8 for equivalent FoV has a Dof of 4ft. You can use the two cameras in the same project but not intercut in the same scene.

I thought about that, but wouldn't the FOV only make a difference if the cameras are in the same position (and honestly when would that ever happen)? I mean, the close up shots always have much more bokeh than the wide shots, so to a certain degree I think the audience is EXPECTING the shots to have a different DOF. It would be a problem, perhaps, if the two cameras were being use from the same distance at different angle.
Also, the FOV in movie mode, if I understand correctly, is surprisingly close to that of Canon's APS-C. Because the Canon's crop inward, while the GH2 grows outward due to the unique sensor proportions. (I think someone here pointed out that the difference is 1.8x crop and a 1.85x crop)

But anyway, resolution and softness is also a thing I've considered. I'm thinking of using the Canon for close ups and dialog (where much of the shot is out of focus anyway), and the GH2 for wide/establishing (where the resolution is welcome). Do you think this would still be a problem?

I figured this could work as long as I can keep the coloring the same between shots.

M. Gilden
12-14-2011, 09:04 PM
I use neutral (sharpening off, contrast lowest, saturation -2) on my 60D and nostalgic (-2,0,0,-2) on my gh1's, and match manual kelvins on all cameras. I usually warm the canon stuff up slightly to match the GH1 footage, but it's reasonably subtle. Avids for post production.

I would imagine the higher bit-rate hack you use on the GH2, the more you'll see the difference between the 2 cameras..

I decided to try those settings today while I was preparing for a product shoot. The color eventually sort of matched after a considerable amount of tweaking in post, but I'm not convinced it was any better than any other settings on either camera. Then again, its a pretty lousy test and most of the footage was underexposed:

http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/mnrgilden/?action=view&current=test.mp4
(sorry for the low quality photobucket share. I prefer this not be on my vimeo or youtube channels :Drogar-BlackEye(DBG)

I'm pretty sure I could make this work on a paying gig if I had to, but I feel like a customized Canon picture profile to match GH2 footage would be a better way to go.
Thankfully, James0b57 over in this thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?262094-Adventures-in-the-PSE/page12) says he can help with that very thing. James has been documenting his adventures with Canon's picture style editor, and seems to be very well versed in analyzing color and using the tools presented there.

Since he doesn't have a GH2 however, we need to help him out. Does anyone have any lenses they can shoot with on both the Canon and GH2? He'd like to analyze footage of the same scene taken with the same lens on both bodies.
Since my M4/3 adapter is still in transit, I can't conduct any of these tests myself yet.

nigelbb
12-15-2011, 01:44 AM
Why do you even want to mix the two cameras? Unless you are shooting a wedding or similar event it is much easier to do like proper film makers & use one camera.

DrDave
12-15-2011, 02:58 AM
I often run 5-7 cams and matching the GH2 to the Canons is a big issue. I always shoot a white card, but you also have to adjust the green channel of the GH2 a bit. There is a thread on this somewhere. Even with identical cameras if you are shooting from different angles you will get different colors.

M. Gilden
12-15-2011, 04:21 AM
Why do you even want to mix the two cameras? Unless you are shooting a wedding or similar event it is much easier to do like proper film makers & use one camera.Concerts and live events for starters. I own multiple cameras because I've needed them on projects all the time.

DrDave
12-15-2011, 11:19 PM
There's also a thread on eoshd
http://www.eoshd.com/content/599/tips-and-tricks-for-making-panasonic-look-more-like-canon

8string
12-16-2011, 02:17 AM
I've recently posted some feedback on a three camera stage shoot I did with a Canon 7D, XF305 and a GH2 over on the Canon boards here. The video itself, I'll re-reference for you to click through and check out. We white balanced the cameras going in, had controlled lighting, which helped, and over all things got pretty close. The GH2 rendered the blue of the shirt out bluer, and IMHO the AVCHD is a bit of a contraster world, which is why I no longer own Panny gear. But you be the judge. Edited with Vegas 11 - 64 bit, because I don't need to transcode and I'm not paid enough to spend the time doing it. As the client said, "we are trying to create champagne from a beer budget." As mentioned in the other thread, the client has been singing folk music professionally since the 1960s, and the band he's in has sold millions of copies. This was done for his web presence, which includes his solo and duet work as well. May not be your cup of tea, but it is for some. He's been a great client. To see the final web work with the video integrated, go towww.markpearsonmusic.com (http://www.markpearsonmusic.com)

DrDave, I'll have to try doing some green channel work, maybe I can do something about the blue match.
I also use Neutral on my 7D like MrBill mentioned.
I use BBC settings on my xf305, but am not convinced I'm there yet with it. But I love that camera,and much prefer it over any DSLR I've used, or own.



http://vimeo.com/33096763

M. Gilden
12-16-2011, 07:13 AM
I've recently posted some feedback on a three camera stage shoot I did with a Canon 7D, XF305 and a GH2 over on the Canon boards here. The video itself, I'll re-reference for you to click through and check out. We white balanced the cameras going in, had controlled lighting, which helped, and over all things got pretty close. The GH2 rendered the blue of the shirt out bluer, and IMHO the AVCHD is a bit of a contraster world, which is why I no longer own Panny gear. But you be the judge. Edited with Vegas 11 - 64 bit, because I don't need to transcode and I'm not paid enough to spend the time doing it. As the client said, "we are trying to create champagne from a beer budget." As mentioned in the other thread, the client has been singing folk music professionally since the 1960s, and the band he's in has sold millions of copies. This was done for his web presence, which includes his solo and duet work as well. May not be your cup of tea, but it is for some. He's been a great client. To see the final web work with the video integrated, go towww.markpearsonmusic.com (http://www.markpearsonmusic.com)

DrDave, I'll have to try doing some green channel work, maybe I can do something about the blue match.
I also use Neutral on my 7D like MrBill mentioned.
I use BBC settings on my xf305, but am not convinced I'm there yet with it. But I love that camera,and much prefer it over any DSLR I've used, or own.



http://vimeo.com/33096763

You got most of the color right, but the exposure is noticeably different. You can really tell it was 3 different cameras.

8string
12-16-2011, 08:25 AM
Understood. I was going more for the color of the face, as opposed to the color of the shirt.

The "exposure" situation is very hard, for a couple of reasons. While we white balanced, and also set our cameras at 24FPS for the shoot, the end result was more 'brilliant' or perhaps had more contrast on the AVCHD and Canon 7D than the 50Mbps xf305. None of these is what I consider traditionally 'overexposed' in that whites are blown out and blacks are not black, they are more contrasty or not. (I'd be willing to have someone prove me wrong here). I've now got almost a year of shooting with these three cameras in different situations, and would really love to see some tests of all three using a NanoFlash or some such device that can bypass the compression. What I've found is that AVCHD on Panasonic gear tends to give a slightly more 'colorful' image, more like a Kodachrome in the old days, whereas Canon tends to go for a more balanced and rounded color to it, much like Fuji film used to be, on the 7D for example. Orange colors on Canon 7D tend to 'bleed out', especially under fluorescent, which does not happen on Panny from my experience. Panny tends to turn wood floors more red, whereas Canon tends to render them more naturalistically brown. Once I move up to the xf305, with 50 Mbps and a 4:2:2 color space, it's much more rich, recording a more subtle palette of colors. It's not that I don't like the Panny AVCHD look, but it's a bit 'harsh' and obviously has it's place.

So my feeling is that it's a waste of time to try to get much closer. The compression is working against us, as is the sensors, and the balance the mfg. puts on their hardware and software to get their unique 'look and feel'.

We got close but the point of this is that given budgets, etc. there's really not a good substitute, IMHO for using the same camera for multiple shot cameras, especially when the goal is to get something more like broadcast then something 'arty'. In two weeks we hit the theater again, and I'm brining on a friend locally who recently bought an XF300, having liked what he saw from mine. I'll get back after we have a chance to do a shoot with Mark in the same theater, same lighting, and see what we get. We'll still use the 7D for a Cam 3.

Additionally, I am not a great 'colorist' at this point, and the addition of a true reference monitor, could have helped. Also, this could be a situation where transcoding to all the same codec might also have helped. But the budget and time just weren't there. And for web work, this is satisfied the client's needs. It's so much better than he was getting, that he is thrilled. But I posted here for just this kind of feedback, so thanks.

DrDave
12-16-2011, 10:08 PM
What I've found is that AVCHD on Panasonic gear tends to give a slightly more 'colorful' image, more like a Kodachrome in the old days, whereas Canon tends to go for a more balanced and rounded color to it, much like Fuji film used to be, on the 7D for example. Orange colors on Canon 7D tend to 'bleed out', especially under fluorescent, which does not happen on Panny from my experience. Panny tends to turn wood floors more red, whereas Canon tends to render them more naturalistically brown.
This is my experience as well. Even with white cards, grey cards, etc, you get into post, set the WB to the card, and you see it doesn't really change because you set the WB to the card in the shoot, OK, WB , checked, and the wood floor just looks different. You can spend hours on it, but they are just different cams. Even using four identical cams you see some differences, just because the light is not uniform across a stage.

M. Gilden
12-17-2011, 07:30 PM
All the more reason having a Canon custom picture style to match would make this job so much easier!

That's what picture profiles do- they control how various colors are interpreted, even when all are based off the same white balance.

M. Gilden
12-19-2011, 10:00 AM
Matching the colour profiles on both cameras is not so much of a deal. What is an issue is that the image on the Canons is so much softer & the extra resolution of the GH2 stands out if you cut between the cameras in a scene. That and the fact that the DoF will be different for the same aperture & equivalent lens e.g. Canon 5DII with 50mm lens at F/2.8 has a DoF of 2ft whereas the GH2 using a 25mm lens at F/2.8 for equivalent FoV has a Dof of 4ft. You can use the two cameras in the same project but not intercut in the same scene.


I thought about that, but wouldn't the FOV only make a difference if the cameras are in the same position (and honestly when would that ever happen)? I mean, the close up shots always have much more bokeh than the wide shots, so to a certain degree I think the audience is EXPECTING the shots to have a different DOF. It would be a problem, perhaps, if the two cameras were being use from the same distance at different angle.


Did a quick test last night. The GH2 is the wider shot on a slider with a 50mm f/1.4, while the Canon is using a 75-150mm f/3.5 zoom for the closeup.
Matched colors as best as I could in camera, judging mostly by the LCD (which isn't so accurate on the GH2 I've noticed).
Still, I didn't do any grading or color correction of any kind in post- this is exactly how it come out of the camera.

I think since the composition of the tight shot looks so very different from the wide, your brain ignores the slight differences in color and/or sharpness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbuS3AQKTYI

I may have a dual-camera shoot coming up in the next couple of weeks, so we'll see how well this works on the job, when actual color correction may be required.