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jdv
08-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Would the images even be close? Doesn't look like XLRs or even HDMI out - but for 4:2:0 recording, would the images be too close to tell the difference?

VG20 presser:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11082415sonynexvg20.asp#press

Mini review:
http://www.technobuffalo.com/cameras/sony-handycam-nex-vg20-camcorder-unleashed-today/

alaskacameradude
08-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Would the images even be close? Doesn't look like XLRs or even HDMI out - but for 4:2:0 recording, would the images be too close to tell the difference?

AG20 presser:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11082415sonynexvg20.asp#press

Mini review:
http://www.technobuffalo.com/cameras/sony-handycam-nex-vg20-camcorder-unleashed-today/

This is just my quick take on this. The VG20 is a still camera, rehoused in a video camera body. The FS 100 is a video camera period. The VG 20 has 16 megapixels (obviously it's first job is stills as you have no reason to have that many for a HD camera). In fact, if you listen to Juan of Sony's presentation on the FS 100, he says that 3.4 (ish) megapixels is the optimum amount
for a 1080p HD camera. More than that and you start having problems with aliasing/moire. He also points out that less pixels, means larger pixels, which is better for low light, and dynamic
range. I would say, the FS 100 should be better for video. The VG 20 could be an interesting 'combo' cam as it will shoot RAW stills. But, I'm pretty sure it is not meant to challenge the FS 100 as a motion camera. However, it will be cheaper, which is a pretty big attraction to the HDSLR's to be honest. If you can get 2 or 3 cameras instead of one, and do multicamera shoots......I can see why people might go that way. But Sony's own guy, basically says that doing things the way they are being done in the VG20, is NOT the best way to go about making a good motion picture camera.

maarek
08-24-2011, 05:44 AM
AG-20, VS-20, VX-20?

It's the VG-20.. :)

I really like this cam atleast specs wise. It's cheaper and so competes directly with DSLR's priced similarly. And it also shoots RAW. Having that capability has been very important with my 7d usage. We'll see once the reviews hit.

cuervo
08-24-2011, 05:51 AM
I agree with you Alaskacameradude. I have a VG10 and the moire from line skipping is absolutely horrendous. To repeat what someone said earlier, If you want to take still pictures buy a DSLR, if you want to shoot video, buy a video camera. These hybrids don't really do either one very well. If your intention is to shoot videos to be watched on an iPhone, by all means, spend $2k on one of these overpriced handi-cams. But, if you're more serious about big screen projection, save yourself some money.
This is just my quick take on this. The VX20 is a still camera, rehoused in a video camera body. The FS 100 is a video camera period. The VG 20 has 16 megapixels (obviously it's first job is stills as you have no reason to have that many for a HD camera). In fact, if you listen to Juan of Sony's presentation on the FS 100, he says that 3.4 (ish) megapixels is the optimum amount
for a 1080p HD camera. More than that and you start having problems with aliasing/moire. He also points out that less pixels, means larger pixels, which is better for low light, and dynamic
range. I would say, the FS 100 should be better for video. The VG 20 could be an interesting 'combo' cam as it will shoot RAW stills. But, I'm pretty sure it is not meant to challenge the FS 100 as a motion camera. However, it will be cheaper, which is a pretty big attraction to the HDSLR's to be honest. If you can get 2 or 3 cameras instead of one, and do multicamera shoots......I can see why people might go that way. But Sony's own guy, basically says that doing things the way they are being done in the VS 20, is NOT the best way to go about making a good motion picture camera.

robmneilson
08-24-2011, 06:23 AM
Sony lent us one of these for a week at work, and I grabbed it for a 2nd cam to shoot additional B-roll and disliked it. Keep your wallet away!

TheDingo
08-24-2011, 06:24 AM
I have a VG10 and the moire from line skipping is absolutely horrendous.

Which is why I did not consider buying a VG10 at all, but what if the moire/aliasing is properly taken care of with the VG20 ?

The VG20 will be a dead-duck if the moire problems haven't been fixed. ( I am also curious to see how the Sony A77 fares when it comes to moire )

dop16mm
08-24-2011, 06:26 AM
I wouldn't rule out the imaging characteristic of the new camera until it is out out and fully tested. Remember that the vg10 was rushed to market as a proof of concept before the f3, fs100 were out. The chip is new, the processor is new, all video optimized. If anyone has read the American Cinematographer article on digital imagers, there are differences between pixels and photosites, and marketing often uses what is most beneficial for their own purposes. Sony is never going to release specific technical data, but I would not be surprised if the F3 chip really uses 4 pixel photo sites in the new diagonal bayer pattern, which results in better color and exposure latitude. Note that the venerable f35/Panavision Genesis uses 12mp ccd with line skipping, technology moves forward. 3.4 x 4 is nearly 14mp, which would be very close to the video imaging area of the VG20. 3.4 mp big pixels is a better sell to the pro arena, 16mp still sells cameras to consumers.

I'm not going to speculate that it is in fact the same chip, as it has to share photo duties with the n3, n5r, but for the price premium I would hope that it affords better video processing. Clean gain, no aliasing and moire, and hopefully minimal wobble. I have high hopes. The gh2 is also 16 mp, and 30% smaller, there is no reason to assume that sony's engineers can't at least match that performance with another year of work behind them.

Hopefully the good testers will have demos in hand sooner rather than later.

cuervo
08-24-2011, 06:49 AM
I wouldn't rule out the imaging characteristic of the new camera until it is out out and fully tested. Remember that the vg10 was rushed to market as a proof of concept before the f3, fs100 were out. The chip is new, the processor is new, all video optimized. If anyone has read the American Cinematographer article on digital imagers, there are differences between pixels and photosites, and marketing often uses what is most beneficial for their own purposes.
I'm not going to speculate that it is in fact the same chip, as it has to share photo duties with the n3, n5r, but for the price premium I would hope that it affords better video processing. Clean gain, no aliasing and moire, and hopefully minimal wobble. I have high hopes. The gh2 is also 16 mp, and 30% smaller, there is no reason to assume that sony's engineers can't at least match that performance with another year of work behind them.

Hopefully the good testers will have demos in hand sooner rather than later. I understand what you're saying. There is limited value in speculation, no argument from me. Having said that, for the fun of discussion, clearly still imaging and video imaging are two disparate scenarios. In other words, the design constraints are different for each application. I think it's a cosmic truth that in order to make both work, some compromises have to be made. It seems to be the way of things that compromising functional capability results in not being able to do wither one as well. It's like the old Volvo p1800S sports/station wagon? That was a disaster that filled neither the station wagon nor sports car niche.

vanvideo
08-24-2011, 07:08 AM
The VG20 does have HDMI out, but it's probably the mini-HDMI plug, like the VG10.
There is moire and aliasing on the VG10 image. I expect the same from the VG20, but that's strictly speculation on my part. Still, that hasn't stopped me from using my VG10 for a few professional shoots, with success. I use it as a back-up to my XF305. It's mainly the lack of any kind of focus assist and no manual audio control that really drives me crazy with the VG10. At least these issues have been fully addressed. Oh, and zebras have been added as well.
I will probably buy a VG20 body, as they will be available sans lens (finally). I'll pair it with the new E-mount prime lenses coming out. And, should I get the FS100, I'll have a good supply of lenses.
But between the FS100 and V20, I don't think it's much of a contest. The FS wins out completely. But for the budget, the VG20 can be a useful tool.
Anybody want to buy a gently used VG10 body?

jdv
08-24-2011, 09:06 AM
AG-20, VS-20, VX-20?

It's the VG-20.. :)

I really like this cam atleast specs wise. It's cheaper and so competes directly with DSLR's priced similarly. And it also shoots RAW. Having that capability has been very important with my 7d usage. We'll see once the reviews hit.

My bad! I stayed up pretty late to hear the official release and my eye were pretty droopy by the time I posted that.

I couldn't find a spec sheet last night and as of last night it wasn't on Amazon or B & H....

cuervo
08-24-2011, 09:41 AM
The VG10 is a useful part of my kit. And there's no doubt that for some applications it really is a nice tool. There's two issues that would keep me from buying into a VGxx. Those issues are:
1-connecting to the HDMI out of the VG10 disables the on-camera LCD/Viewfinder. This is really a deterrent to using a 3rd party encoder because the monitor needed is bigger and more unwieldly that the camera itself.
2-the tripod socket on the VG10 is woefully underdesigned. The screw socket broke the first week I had the camera, after trying to mount it to a rail system. A little epoxy repaired the failure, but, for a $2k camera, this kind of underdesign is borderline incompetence by the designers.

Sony seems intent on making sure their product lines don't cross, or compete against each other. But, hamstringing a product at this level is really inexcuseable.

dustylense
08-24-2011, 10:58 AM
Have any of you shot with the Sony HVX9? Thats a 14 megapixel cam crammed into a small sensor, with no moire and very very minimal aliasing, almost none. Now, if they took the processing and software scaling into the vg-20 then we might get a bit of a surprise out of this camera. Just my 2 cents...

alaskacameradude
08-24-2011, 11:38 AM
My bad! I stayed up pretty late to hear the official release and my eye were pretty droopy by the time I posted that.

I couldn't find a spec sheet last night and as of last night it wasn't on Amazon or B & H....

Me too, it was past 2am my time when I wrote that....yikes. Until it is released, we won't know for sure. I am just guessing, that compromises are made to make it a good stills camera. We will see.

dop16mm
08-24-2011, 05:29 PM
I would expect any compromises to the still side as it is clearly designed and marketed as a video camera. It is certainly possible to get decent video out of a 16mp chip. Look at the GH2. And several canon video cams stuffed 8mp on 1/3" chips, and the only obvious compromise was in low light performance. The important thing is how fast the chip is read and the processing behind it. All of this is new in this generation, the fact that it is 60p would indicate that the readout is twice as fast as the vg10.

Lets get over the fact that the vg10 sucked, and wait and see if the new one delivers the goods, if it does I will have no problem laying out the cash for one.

Paul V Doherty
08-24-2011, 06:50 PM
Can't wait to see Canon and Nikon's response to this :)

jdv
08-24-2011, 09:42 PM
Nice VG20 promo vid:
http://vimeo.com/28093257

And I wouldn't hold my breath on Nikon ever responding - they've seemed all but oblivious so far.

Canon will respond - eventually - but by the time they do, will anyone (other than those with lots of Canon glass) care?

jetswing
08-24-2011, 10:03 PM
From Sony's VG20 product page:

"Best-ever and ever and ever Full HD video image quality, audio and ergonomics: Sony introduces the Handycam® NEX-VG20E"

Great...now I have to sell FS and upgrade to VG20....

jdv
08-24-2011, 10:32 PM
Well, here's your chance - it up at B & H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818267-REG/Sony_NEXVG20H_NEX_VG20H_Interchangeable_Lens_HD.ht ml

ectobuilder
08-25-2011, 02:14 AM
Which is why I did not consider buying a VG10 at all, but what if the moire/aliasing is properly taken care of with the VG20 ?

The VG20 will be a dead-duck if the moire problems haven't been fixed. ( I am also curious to see how the Sony A77 fares when it comes to moire )

The moire/aliasing is happening BECAUSE the sensor has way too much resolution (16MP). Also, with such a high resolution, the low-light will be VERY noisy. This is a "repackaged DSLR" as Juan Mendez said about the VG10, the same is true here as well.

On a side note, this is vintage Sony, leave out what is essential to video shooting on the VG10 (i.e. 24p, 180 degree LCD, external scroll wheel, audio levels) and then put them into the next iteration. Just like swivel bases for their HDTV's.

ectobuilder
08-25-2011, 02:15 AM
Nice VG20 promo vid:
http://vimeo.com/28093257

And I wouldn't hold my breath on Nikon ever responding - they've seemed all but oblivious so far.

Canon will respond - eventually - but by the time they do, will anyone (other than those with lots of Canon glass) care?

RESPOND to WHAT? What does Canon have to respond to in the VG20 other than it "sucks", a wannabe money grabber.

maarek
08-25-2011, 02:35 AM
The moire/aliasing is happening BECAUSE the sensor has way too much resolution (16MP). Also, with such a high resolution, the low-light will be VERY noisy.

As mentioned, the Sony HX9v does excellent scaling from 16mp to HD. No moire and minimal aliasing.

My Canon 7d is 18mp and it does very bad scaling. I still love that camera and the lowlight it can achieve. What exactly makes the VG-20 to be worse?

alaskacameradude
08-25-2011, 03:14 AM
RESPOND to WHAT? What does Canon have to respond to in the VG20 other than it "sucks", a wannabe money grabber. I'd say Canon might want to respond to the AF100 and the FS100, more than the VG20, but that's just a guess as the VG20 isn't out yet.

TheDingo
08-25-2011, 05:43 AM
The moire/aliasing is happening BECAUSE the sensor has way too much resolution (16MP). Also, with such a high resolution, the low-light will be VERY noisy.

The Panasonic GH-2 also has a 16 Mpx high resolution sensor, but it shoots video with almost no moire or aliasing at all. It's also pretty good in low light, especially now with the high bit-rate hack. I see no reason why a new Sony camera can't do what a much cheaper Panasonic camera did 9 months ago.

I still hope that moire and aliasing have been taken care of with the VG20, otherwise I will ignore this camera just like I did with the VG10.

cuervo
08-25-2011, 06:50 AM
There is a thing called OLPF....In high-quality digital maging systems, optical low-pass filters (OLPF) are used to eliminate color Moire fringes. An OLPF cuts off the lens MTF (http://www.optics-online.com/tolerance.asp) above the sampling frequency of the imager resulting an overall MTF curve that approximates a step function in spatial domain. The thing about OLPF's is that they're optimized for either still imaging or video imaging. That's how higher megapixel sensors are made to work well with video cameras. The same OLPF that is applied to a video camera is not the same OLPF applied to a still camera. Which brings me back to my original statement, you can have a still camera or you can have a video camera. But, you can't have one that does both very well.

-Sandro-
08-25-2011, 08:03 AM
but HX9v resolution is not as good as the GH2 in my opinion, just saying..

TheDingo
08-25-2011, 08:06 AM
The same OLPF that is applied to a video camera is not the same OLPF applied to a still camera. Which brings me back to my original statement, you can have a still camera or you can have a video camera. But, you can't have one that does both very well.

The Panasonic GH-2 does a pretty good job at both video and still photos ( only use RAW format for stills, as the GH-2 JPEG engine has problems ), but I think this is due to how the GH-2 down-samples the video image. Most still cameras use line skipping to down-sample, where it appears that the GH-2 does pixel-binning to bring things down to 1080 HD resolution.

-Sandro-
08-25-2011, 08:09 AM
wouldn't just be easier for them to use a 2-3MP sensor with a less powerful processor? Shouldn't this bring excellent video quality and significantly less costs?

TheDingo
08-25-2011, 08:16 AM
wouldn't just be easier for them to use a 2-3MP sensor with a less powerful processor? Shouldn't this bring excellent video quality and significantly less costs?

But then it's useless as a still camera, which is how Sony is positioning the VG20, as a consumer camera that can do both video and stills. ( also means using a specialized video sensor, which Sony wants to keep for their higher end video cameras like the FS-100 )

NeedCreative
08-25-2011, 08:17 AM
Sony claims they have minimized Moire and aliasing on the VG20; I'll believe it when I see it. (There aren't any great examples out there yet at full res). The FS100 is purpose built for video and even it can have luma moire on things like fine window screens and some mild aliasing. The VG20 is built off a stills chip which necessitates some kind of downsampling, line skipping, or something. Even if the processing is of high quality as with the GH2, you still have that OLPF issue to deal with so there's still a tradeoff in picture quality. And even if they somehow solved both of those issues, there's still a significant low light ability drop off because the S35 sensor in the F3 and FS100 uses 4X as much physical area to capture the light of one pixel. Physics wins there.

Combine these issues with the lack of a lot of professional features such as lack of XLR inputs, mini HDMI, and much more don't make me question at all the FS100 purchase (if we're comparing strictly against the VG20). It might be a viable option for a DSLR shooter however who is trying to minimize moire, aliasing, etc... IF indeed Sony has minimized those issues. They're used to needing external sound recorders and so forth anyway.

alaskacameradude
08-25-2011, 08:20 AM
wouldn't just be easier for them to use a 2-3MP sensor with a less powerful processor? Shouldn't this bring excellent video quality and significantly less costs? Well, I suspect it would make for better VIDEO (as this is how the FS100 does it) but would make for worse STILLS. They want more megapixels for the stills people cause not many
stills shooters want a 2-3 megapixel camera.

-Sandro-
08-25-2011, 08:20 AM
So basically we will never have a "cheap" camera because they'll NEVER put a S35mm low MP sensor in them

-Sandro-
08-25-2011, 08:24 AM
Well, I suspect it would make for better VIDEO (as this is how the FS100 does it) but would make for worse STILLS. They want more mega pixels for the stills people cause not many stills shooters want a
2-3 megapixel camera.

The problem is that the VG20 is categorized as a camcorder. Who the hell cares about stills and RAW stills if I buy a videocamera! This the proof they don't want to kill the higher end cameras.
BUT If they had the same sensor wouldn't be better for them to sell 1000 VG20 for $1,5k instead of 100 fs100 for $5k? I guess I'll never understand economics :D

dop16mm
08-25-2011, 01:37 PM
If the processing is done right, 4 small pixels can be addressed the same as one big pixel, with minimal difference in image quality. Also the firmware does not have to address the chip in the same manner for video as it does for stills. I don't know how the magic works inside these things, but they seem to get better every year. I intend to wait and see. there is no reason to assume that in won't be at least as good as a GH2, as the design is a year newer. The video quality could be every bit as good as the FS100, but that shouldn't matter, as they are made for different markets. We live in a vacuum on these boards and think that the big players should cater to our whims, but it doesn't work that way.

The vg20 is a high end consumer cam, and should perform as such. The FS100 has many features that are appropriate to its price point, and those that need it will buy into it. I like many here work with minimal resources and try to make the most of a small investment. If the quality falls within the ubiquitous realm of good enough, it may make it into to my kit. I have no doubt that it will be better than the current canon's as the tech is 3 years newer. It shouldn't cost several thousand to move up to a model with xlr, but it does. So you make a choice based on your own economics and what you do. If you've already bought into something else, you shouldn't need to defend it, just use the best you can until it is no longer useful, more than paid for itself, or you can afford to move on.

I appreciate the fact that we can now achieve 90% performance for 10% of the price, but there will always be times when that extra 10% is justified, and if the budget is there then go for it.

jetswing
08-25-2011, 01:50 PM
From reading what Sony has to say about VG20, it's obvious that the image quality has been improved over VG10. And could really only mean that the aliasing issue has been resolved or minimized. Here's a couple of quotes:

"Best-ever Full HD video image quality, audio and ergonomics"
"With refined ergonomics, improved imaging quality and upgraded sound, it provides several enhancements over the acclaimed NEX-VG10E"


http://presscentre.sony.eu/content/Detail.aspx?ReleaseID=6938&NewsAreaID=2

alaskacameradude
08-25-2011, 03:57 PM
If the processing is done right, 4 small pixels can be addressed the same as one big pixel, with minimal difference in image quality. Also the firmware does not have to address the chip in the same manner for video as it does for stills. I don't know how the magic works inside these things, but they seem to get better every year. I intend to wait and see. there is no reason to assume that in won't be at least as good as a GH2, as the design is a year newer. The video quality could be every bit as good as the FS100, but that shouldn't matter, as they are made for different markets. We live in a vacuum on these boards and think that the big players should cater to our whims, but it doesn't work that way.

The vg20 is a high end consumer cam, and should perform as such. The FS100 has many features that are appropriate to its price point, and those that need it will buy into it. I like many here work with minimal resources and try to make the most of a small investment. If the quality falls within the ubiquitous realm of good enough, it may make it into to my kit. I have no doubt that it will be better than the current canon's as the tech is 3 years newer. It shouldn't cost several thousand to move up to a model with xlr, but it does. So you make a choice based on your own economics and what you do. If you've already bought into something else, you shouldn't need to defend it, just use the best you can until it is no longer useful, more than paid for itself, or you can afford to move on.

I appreciate the fact that we can now achieve 90% performance for 10% of the price, but there will always be times when that extra 10% is justified, and if the budget is there then go for it.

I appreciate the fact that the VG20 is newer tech than the Canons. However, it has come out basically at the same time as the FS 100. One has to think, if doing things the VG 20 'way'
(16MP chip, to get better stills) was every bit as good as the 'FS 100' way (3.4 MP chip made expressly for motion) why Sony wouldn't have just made one chip and put it in both the VG20
and the FS 100?? I mean, they put the same chip in the FS 100 as they did in the F3 right? The processing isn't the same, and the F3 has a better image, but they use the same chip right?
So, my conclusion, (and this is only my opinion) is that there is something about the VG 20 chip that makes it better for stills and not quite as good for motion. If it were better
for stills and just as good at motion, why would they put it in their lower end camera and not the higher end one? Again, my guess is that although they position the VG 20 as a
'camcorder' they position it as a 'convergence' camcorder which does stills. If you can get just as good video from a still chip, why not just put the still chip in all the
video cameras and save money? If the GH2 chip from Panasonic is so good why not put that in their AF100? I don't know the answers, but I figure there MUST be some reason
they don't put the stills chips in the video cameras, even though many are saying they are just as good. Of course, maybe I am wrong, and it is just a ploy by the camera
makers to try to get some people to pay more money....

That being said, I think you are on to the same thing the HDSLR crowd is. When you can get very good performance for much less price, many will choose the lesser price.
I totally get that and agree.....I mean after all if it were just about image I'd have bought an F3 not an FS100.....or maybe a Epic, or an Alexa. Your point is, we first
look at our BUDGET, what we can spend on a camera, then try to buy the best one we can at that price point. And that, I agree with you on.

-Sandro-
08-25-2011, 04:19 PM
Even if the downscaling process could be as good, wouldn't low light performance be worse on the 16mp sensor? I also notice that in those lower mp chips the DR is MUCH better too (could be unrelated to the sensor though)

dop16mm
08-25-2011, 05:01 PM
What I am trying to get at, and it is all speculation on all fronts, is that the mp numbers are marketing bs. There has been much speculation that the famous f3 chip is not really 3.4 mp pixels but rather photosites which can also be called pixels. These photo sites are made up of 4 actual on silicone pixels in a diagonal rgbg pattern. This results in a 16x9 effective area of roughly 14mp on a 16mp 3x2 chip. You need this much detail to get true 10 bit 444 color space that the f3 is capable of.

Now there is no question that the $15k F3 has better processing than the $5K fs100 which is likely better again than the $1500 vg20, but the differences are much closer than they were just a few years ago. This is as big of a watershed as when the original vx1000 mini dv, put a lot of $50,000 betacams out of work because the average end viewer could not tell the difference. Now of course productions with money will use higher end equipment, because it is more appropriate to the work conditions, but there is no reason why an indie filmmaker with talent and no money need to step up to the next level, and still be able to produce a product that is more than watchable.

rant aside it may very well be the same chip design, but we will never know because sony won't tell us. 16mp plays in the consumer market, 3.4 for pro video. The true video only cams probably have the olpf to go with it, among other things, but panasonic managed to work some mojo with the GH2 chip, and I have no doubt that if they really want to take the consumer convergence market, sony has the resources to do it.

PabloOzzy
08-25-2011, 05:26 PM
Its such an interesting time now - the FS100 is amazing, the F3 is breathtaking however costs $14kish and will soon have MASSIVE competition from the Red Epic-S model which should cost about the same and offer a world class of difference. Then back to earth for the budget constrained and you have the A77, brand new Nikons using Sony sensors to be announced in September (will they get it right this time?) and they better as Canon is strongly rumoured to be announcing the 5Dmk3 in September shipping October.

Honestly Im not touching my credit card until Christmas time when the dust has settled. I will rent whatever I need up till then that my trusty T2i cant handle.

Also I downloaded the raw A77 60p mts files via dp review - converted them with cineform to 24p and honestly the quality of the slow motion was outstanding. I could not fault it for the price on this cam! LOVE to see how it handles low light compared to the FS100.

jdv
08-25-2011, 05:29 PM
RESPOND to WHAT? What does Canon have to respond to in the VG20 other than it "sucks", a wannabe money grabber.

The GH2, FS100, F3, A77, NEX7, NEX5, AF100, and potentially the VG20 for starters. Two companies - Sony and Sam Yang - have also introduced nearly a dozen low cost lenses in the last year alone.

Besides that though, no reason at all.

PabloOzzy
08-25-2011, 06:46 PM
I dont think canon will respond as such - I think they really follow their own course with not much more than a sideways glance at the competition. Im really hoping however they do release a killer 5Dmk3 and even better something that takes on the FS100 with more 'PRO' for less 'DOUGH' (hey that could be their slogan). Canon are uniquely placed to hammer the FS100 or even the F3 for that matter as unlike sony they dont have a multitude of sticky fingers in so many sticky pies. Canon dont have to worry about the F65 being cannibalised by the F3 or the F3 by the FS100 or the FS100 by the VG20 / A77. Of course I dont expect anything that revolutionary...canons 'response' years after the EX1 was nothing other than a 'here we are' catch up release. Who knows...maybe this time...;-)

alaskacameradude
08-25-2011, 07:11 PM
What I am trying to get at, and it is all speculation on all fronts, is that the mp numbers are marketing bs. There has been much speculation that the famous f3 chip is not really 3.4 mp pixels but rather photosites which can also be called pixels. These photo sites are made up of 4 actual on silicone pixels in a diagonal rgbg pattern. This results in a 16x9 effective area of roughly 14mp on a 16mp 3x2 chip. You need this much detail to get true 10 bit 444 color space that the f3 is capable of.

Now there is no question that the $15k F3 has better processing than the $5K fs100 which is likely better again than the $1500 vg20, but the differences are much closer than they were just a few years ago. This is as big of a watershed as when the original vx1000 mini dv, put a lot of $50,000 betacams out of work because the average end viewer could not tell the difference. Now of course productions with money will use higher end equipment, because it is more appropriate to the work conditions, but there is no reason why an indie filmmaker with talent and no money need to step up to the next level, and still be able to produce a product that is more than watchable.

rant aside it may very well be the same chip design, but we will never know because sony won't tell us. 16mp plays in the consumer market, 3.4 for pro video. The true video only cams probably have the olpf to go with it, among other things, but panasonic managed to work some mojo with the GH2 chip, and I have no doubt that if they really want to take the consumer convergence market, sony has the resources to do it.

Ok, tell me if I have this straight, cause I am trying to understand here. Your speculation, is that the VG20 chip and the F3 chip may be 'very similar' if not the same, because the F3 chip is
just calling a 'group' of 4 photosites, a pixel? What I am wondering, is if this is true, would it be possible for the F3 to take 16MP stills? I mean it obviously is NOT possible right now,
but would it be possible in theory? In other words, how does this work....how does the VG20 (assuming you are right) use the actual 'pixels' to get 16MP for stills, but then only use a
group of 4 'photosites' for a pixel for video?......and yet the F3 can't do this? To me, it doesn't make sense, that this would be the case, but I've certainly been wrong before. Not saying
you are wrong at all, I am just wondering.....In every case before, I have seen still cameras video be compromised, because they have to deal with the totally different requirements that still
folks have. But maybe technology has advanced to the point where this is not the case? I don't know, I guess we will see once the VG20 is released. I'd still put my money on 'motion' being
compromised to add still features, but after hearing what you are saying, I wouldn't bet as much as I would have before.....

Wendt
08-25-2011, 07:38 PM
I think Canon will compete with the FS-100 and the F-3. But, There is room for Sony to respond with one more camera between the FS-100 and the F-3. If Canon gets close to the F-3, Sony could offer slog at a better price.

vanvideo
08-26-2011, 08:09 AM
If Canon puts a large sensor and interchangable lenses in the body of the XF300/305 or even the XF100/105, they've got a winner. It'll have the best codec of them all with the best assortment of lenses available. Big win all around.
I think eventually they'll have to do so, as the new large sensor video cameras are going to keep shrinking the video market for HDSLRs.

maarek
08-26-2011, 09:49 AM
VG-20 also does 30db of gain and if the quality of noise is the same as on the FS100 then we'll know that they basically use the same sensor. We'll se once the samples hit. I kinda doubt that it's similar but you never know.

dop16mm
08-26-2011, 12:11 PM
nex 5n uses same chip as vg20, and ships in september. Real world samples should be out soon, and it should put speculation to bed. If I was sony I would develop a chip that can be used across multiple platforms so they can be stamped out by the millions and pay for themselves quickly. Then just put different names on them for different markets. Exmor super-35 for digital cinema, Exmor aps Hd for consumer, come on. Now certainly a nex 5n is not an F3, The F3 contains many feature that are tailored to pro use, and priced accordingly, it is much more than a chip in box. But the development of that chip is expensive, and if it can be massed produced it only makes sense. That sort of business plan allows the F3 to be relatively cheap for what it is, say compared to an Arri Alexa or Red which use propriety chips in only one product. The biggest clue is that the sensor in the F3/fs100 are not 16x9 shaped, they are photo aps-c shaped. I'm sure a lot of shooters would love to be able to address the full height of the sensor for anamorphic, but it's not in the firmware.

kurth
08-26-2011, 01:16 PM
and from all counts the 5n is havin´some serious high iso glory

jdv
08-26-2011, 02:25 PM
"and from all counts the 5n is havin´some serious high iso glory..."

Exactly why I'm very curious how this all plays out. Here's one review reporting that the NEX 5N is beating both the Mark II and A77 in low light tests:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/3802/which-is-best-for-low-light-sony-nex-5n-or-nex-7-and-a77

I do have one question - how do we know it's the same chip in the VG20/NEX5H? Is that an educated guess based on the listed stats, or something Sony has said?

kurth
08-26-2011, 05:52 PM
I´m not doing the search but I´m about 99% positive that´s a sony statement

ectobuilder
08-26-2011, 10:05 PM
"and from all counts the 5n is havin´some serious high iso glory..."

Exactly why I'm very curious how this all plays out. Here's one review reporting that the NEX 5N is beating both the Mark II and A77 in low light tests:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/3802/which-is-best-for-low-light-sony-nex-5n-or-nex-7-and-a77

I do have one question - how do we know it's the same chip in the VG20/NEX5H? Is that an educated guess based on the listed stats, or something Sony has said?

However the article unscientifically goes back to the point some of us is making "Will Sony’s decision to put 24MP in the NEX 7 and A77 backfire? It certainly seems so."

ectobuilder
08-26-2011, 10:08 PM
VG-20 also does 30db of gain and if the quality of noise is the same as on the FS100 then we'll know that they basically use the same sensor. We'll se once the samples hit. I kinda doubt that it's similar but you never know.

The fact that it has 30db of gain is not an indication at all that it will have the similar noise-free characteristic of the FS100.

Firstly the VG10 had up to 27db of gain and comparing that to the 27db of the FS100 it is a no contest, not even close. Therefore it comes down to processing and the encode process.

I believe that the VG20's 30db will be similar to the VG10's 27db noise-wise. This would be enough to give Sony the justification to call this an improvement while not intruding on the FS100 and F3 space.

ectobuilder
08-26-2011, 10:12 PM
My impressions are that Canon's photography and camcorder divisions are highly compartmentalized than Sony's (ironically as Sony is known for that overall).

Based on this assumption, Canon would have to address organizational issues before their internal departments can willingly share technologies with one another.

As for Sony, the fact that a Cinealta technology (S35) and XDCAM (codec) technologies were inserted into the NXCAM line shows there is synergy between each camcorder level. Perhaps they are even under one roof?

Only time will tell if Canon can do what Sony unselfishly has done with their technology.

brunerww
08-27-2011, 07:04 AM
...Who the hell cares about stills and RAW stills if I buy a videocamera!

Me :-)

In still mode, I want high megapixel RAW images for maximum flexibility in post-processing. In video mode, I want progressive scan and modern image processing to get rid of moire. I also want a headphone jack and full control of audio -- and I want it all in one camera body because I am tired of carrying separate cameras around.

I don't care if it is wrapped in a "camcorder" or a "DSLR" form factor (or even a FS-100 style "cube"). This is the camera I've been waiting for. If they've solved the moire problem with the new processor, I will sell my GH2 and buy one.

Cheers,

Bill

-Sandro-
08-27-2011, 08:33 AM
I agree on that but selling a camcorder with a stills sensor is just stupidity :) I would expect (and WANT) what you said from a product sold as "hybrid" like the GH2.
anyway check out this video ftp://rawdata.slrclub.com/body/sony/1108_nex5n/mov/00008.MTS from the NEX-5n (same vg20 sensor). Better resolution than old sonys, canons and nikons but still shows moiré! GH2 is still better in resolution!

brunerww
08-27-2011, 12:38 PM
Here are several short 1080p YouTube clips shot with a preproduction VG20 by videoaktiv in Deutschland: http://www.videoaktiv.de/Praxis+Technik/CAMCORDER-Hintergrundinfo/Sony-NEX-VG20-Testszenen-mit-dem-Vorserienmodell.html

(http://www.videoaktiv.de/Praxis+Technik/CAMCORDER-Hintergrundinfo/Sony-NEX-VG20-Testszenen-mit-dem-Vorserienmodell.html)The original files seem to be available for download. I didn't have time to download them, but I did look at them on a 42" plasma at 720p resolution and didn't see any moire on the shingled roofs or the water.

Not sure my GH2 could have done any better :-)

I'll have to see more clean video and try to get my hands on one, but I am pretty sure that this is the camera for me.

Cheers,

Bill

jdv
08-27-2011, 02:07 PM
Hey Bill, thanks for posting that German footage! I was dead set on getting either the FS100 or the AF100, but now I'm not too sure. Why? Three things: The release of the VG20 and NEX 5N, the announcement of the $8,000 Chinese 2K camera (and of course, the Mark III is around the corner...), and the cost vs performance ratio of the FS100/AF100.

My thinking has always been to wait to the last possible second to buy my cams (I hate renting - I beat the hell out of my equipment). The AF100 continues to shrink in cost (esp used models), while the FS100 is holding on for now. Both cameras seem a wee over priced (by about a grand) given that you can buy a refurb Mark II directly from Canon for $2,000 - but I do want a true video camera form factor.

Now if the VG20 is remotely close to the FS100 for image quality, it's hard not to be interested in it, esp given it's $1,500 price tag. Sure the Chinese camera might be vapourware, and who knows, Canon might screw the pooch with the Mark III (if and when), but if those companies come through with good products in the next 6 months, then the FS100 and AF100's pricing will seem even more out of wack to me.

I know the VG20 will only have mini HDMI out, no XLR inputs, and won't have built-in ND filters - but come on, it's only $1,500. And in to me, that's a small price to pay to be able to shoot on a Super 35 sized chip via an E mount (which is very cool), while also getting "true" video camera form. The ability to take a RAW picture is even cooler - it allows a movie maker to get behind the scenes pics w/o having to have a DSLR as well as giving a wedding/event shooter a "back up still cam" in his video camera.

If it's close to the FS100/Af100 in image quality (and that's the big if right now).

-Sandro-
08-27-2011, 02:24 PM
Thank you. I've been waiting for original samples form this camera.

I'm really sorry to disappoint you (and myself) but it looks like the NEX-5n :( Better resolution than Canon but still not THAT good (GH2) and yes I see moiré.
Look:

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9539/vg202.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/vg202.jpg/)


http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5369/vg201.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/vg201.jpg/)

-Sandro-
08-27-2011, 02:42 PM
This is from the NEX-5n

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5294/nex5n.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/nex5n.jpg/)



If this is not moiré I don't know what is

jdv
08-27-2011, 05:42 PM
Well, four things about that pic and the German footage:

1. Doesn't seem like too bad of moire to me - esp considering it's just about perfect conditions for the effect to happen (although granted, having used Canons for the past year and half, I might be a bit jaded). There were several shots of the blue sky which would have potentially turned my T2i's brain into jello.

2. It's a pre-pro camera - meaning there might be both physical and software changes made to the final model (which would hopefully improve image quality).

3. We have no idea what settings the shooter used. It's very rare - perhaps impossible - for a new camera right out of the box to look good. Most of these pre-pro cameras must be returned within hours after receipt - meaning a very short time to learn all the ins and outs, even for experienced shooters. Normally it takes about a month in the field for pros to zero in the best settings for any one camera. The AF100 in particular had a rough start out of the box, but in time people learned the proper tweaks and since then that cameras produced many fine images.

4. The footage came from the internet. No explanation should be needed there.

-Sandro-
08-27-2011, 07:00 PM
1- true. I've been shooting basically every week with a Canon for 1 straight year and I can see aliasing and moiré wherever its visible. I can tell from a mile which footage comes from a gh2/real HD camera, "the others" and from these new sonys. I just have eyes for resolution :) I think that for me the presence of moiré and aliasing is automatically proof of a company not taking a product seriously with cheap downscaling.
Anyway the resolution is BETTER but the moiré imho is the same, the one on the NEX-5n is pretty bad!
Look at the buildings far away on the nex-5n pic how soft they are. Typical image with details missing. Seems upscaled (and the image is not). Aliasing is visible in every line produced by buildings.

2- I REALLY hope you're right!

3- I don't really agree, if the camera has bad downscaling there's nothing you can tweak...doing something would be called a wordaround (unless point #3).

4. I don't get it :| what does it change if the original file comes from the Internet or from my camera?

squig
08-27-2011, 07:15 PM
and from all counts the 5n is havin´some serious high iso glory

The low light capability of the NEX-5N is great for a $600 body but it's no FS100. It appears to have some aliasing and moire. Rolling shutter appears to be under control. I've been evaluating RAW 1600 ISO samples from the NEX-5N and the A77 comparing them to identical shots from the 5D, 7D, GH2, D700, and D3s. The NEX-5N sits between the 5D and 7D/GH2 for noise. The A77 was noisier than the 7D and GH2. From what I've seen the FS100 has high ISO performance well above the 5D and in D3s territory. The NEX-5N and VG20 use the same sensor as the NEX-C3 which has been tested by http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings

squig
08-27-2011, 07:24 PM
If the NEX-5N gets a bit-rate hack and one of those moire filters that have been developed for the 5D then it will be a serious contender. This thing weighs 210 grams!

kurth
08-27-2011, 07:36 PM
or maybe we can convince sony to put the fs100 sensor in a nex 5-like body !

NeedCreative
08-27-2011, 10:08 PM
With those samples it's clear this VG20 has the same or similar moire and aliasing issues that the VG10 had. (Which is too bad) Maybe a bit less, but the FS100 is far better in this respect. That's what you get from getting a sensor and electronics purpose built for video. You get a camera and a antialiasing filter tuned to a video resolution.

brunerww
08-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Here is the Northern Territory video in 1080p.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_i0ZpaKQ

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_i0ZpaKQ)And here is a sample of in-camera 5.1 audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21A2pJ47D8E

Pixel peepers might see moire, but what I see is my next camera :-)

Cheers,

Bill

thxdave
08-28-2011, 08:41 AM
<snip>

[/URL]And here is a sample of in-camera 5.1 audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21A2pJ47D8E

Pixel peepers might see moire, but what I see is my next camera :-)

Cheers,

Bill

Not much point showing 5.1 on YT as it only supports stereo encoding.
d

brunerww
08-28-2011, 09:19 AM
True. Got carried away. :-)

dustylense
08-28-2011, 10:13 AM
Here is the Northern Territory video in 1080p.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_i0ZpaKQ

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhE_i0ZpaKQ)And here is a sample of in-camera 5.1 audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21A2pJ47D8E

Pixel peepers might see moire, but what I see is my next camera :-)

Cheers,

Bill
I didn't see any moire. I saw aliasing on one shot of a chap with a red striped shirt (the wide pull out) and thats it. I think I'm going after this camera too. I have the VG-10 and it does line skip. But I love it's form factor and stealth. For you FS100 owners, this should be a great B-cam.

jdv
08-28-2011, 11:13 AM
Hey Bill, don't worry - this camera sounds pretty darn good even in stereo!

Dustylense - do you think the VG20 will line skip as well? I thought it was a totally different processor from the VG10....

dustylense
08-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Hey Bill, don't worry - this camera sounds pretty darn good even in stereo!

Dustylense - do you think the VG20 will line skip as well? I thought it was a totally different processor from the VG10....

I don't know yet. It has to bin pixels somehow. It's just how they do it that will matter. But looking at that 1080p youtube of the promo look promising. It is a different processor than the VG10, so let's hope they addressed the Moire/aliasing issue. If they have, I'm all over this camera as I really like the form factor. I shoot with the HVX200, af100, hacked gh2, 5dmk2, and I have the VG-10 but not really using it much as wide shots are disastrous. THe promo looks promising though.

-Sandro-
08-28-2011, 01:13 PM
It's definitely not a clean and real 1080p. If you wanna compare it to the FS100 anyway.
In the end it's all a personal choice not caring about these issues or not considering them important. I just don't wanna make you think that you're buying something than it's not.

The promotional video must use the final product right?

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6800/vg203.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/vg203.jpg/)

jdv
08-28-2011, 09:49 PM
The promotional video must use the final product right?

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6800/vg203.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/vg203.jpg/)

Almost certainly not - final product is what ends up in our hands, and that's at least two months away - meaning the VG20 was put on the back burner while the A77/NEX 5N/7N were getting made.

Our cameras are probably getting made as we speak..

-Sandro-
08-29-2011, 05:01 AM
Is there a release date?

brunerww
08-29-2011, 05:55 AM
Is there a release date?

B&H says "Approximate Arrival November" for both body only: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818266-REG/Sony_NEXVG20_NEX_VG20_Interchangeable_Lens_HD.html

(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818266-REG/Sony_NEXVG20_NEX_VG20_Interchangeable_Lens_HD.html )And for lens-included kit: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818267-REG/Sony_NEXVG20H_NEX_VG20H_Interchangeable_Lens_HD.ht ml